Revolvers. I think they are a must. There is no reason to play a strictly martial class with multiple attacks when you can't even use those attacks with your signature weapon. That and with the Lightning Reload Deed feat, you will run out of Grit fast from 6th to 10th lvl.
My only advice is to put a stipulation on the revolvers that states that you can either use Rapid Shot or TWF with revolvers, but not both at the same time.
Revolvers. I think they are a must. There is no reason to play a strictly martial class with multiple attacks when you can't even use those attacks with your signature weapon. That and with the Lightning Reload Deed feat, you will run out of Grit fast from 6th to 10th lvl.
My only advice is to put a stipulation on the revolvers that states that you can either use Rapid Shot or TWF with revolvers, but not both at the same time.
Devs already stated that there are more firearm options in Ultimate Combat, but this is the class playtest, not the weapon playtest.
I'd say it's silly to limit the weapons in the playtest seeing as how the class is built around those weapons, but that's just me. ;)
I am going to allow my players to use Crossbow Mastery from the APG. I can't see being able two TWF and reload these weapons though, since you need a free hand to do so.
The PF Campaign Setting has some firearms rules in it, including the revolver (the only one worth using, imho). I don't have it handy, though. Are the pistols and rifle in the playtest different from the ones in the CS book?
the campaign guide has 6 different firearms included in its pages, the blunderbuss, the musket, the pistol, the revolver, the rifle, and the scattergun.
No revolvers, please. The more you go outside historical tech combinations, the more you end up breaking versimilitude. Tech you need to make revolvers, would have a lot more effects on the world than just producing revolvers. Nonsense arguments about "but but... magic!" excluded.
what about Pepperboxes? multi shot benefits of a revolver with a touch more historical accuracy.
No revolvers, please. The more you go outside historical tech combinations, the more you end up breaking versimilitude. Tech you need to make revolvers, would have a lot more effects on the world than just producing revolvers. Nonsense arguments about "but but... magic!" excluded.
Dude, we have wizards who can fly around and throw fireballs in a setting with castles.
Verisimilitude went out the window a long time ago.
I'm always amazed people think revolvers would have a huge effect on the world but literally limitless energy in the form of wizards with permanency wouldn't.
No revolvers, please. The more you go outside historical tech combinations, the more you end up breaking versimilitude. Tech you need to make revolvers, would have a lot more effects on the world than just producing revolvers. Nonsense arguments about "but but... magic!" excluded.
you must be one of those people who think having a martial class which cant utilize all of his attacks per round with his weapon of choice until lvl 11 is good then.
this class needs revolvers. period. otherwise it needs to be rewritten, and if it isnt, no one will play it or people will play it and they will all be the same build.
No revolvers, please. The more you go outside historical tech combinations, the more you end up breaking versimilitude. Tech you need to make revolvers, would have a lot more effects on the world than just producing revolvers. Nonsense arguments about "but but... magic!" excluded.Have you looked at the alchemist class? How about Craft: Engineering.
Pathfinder and Golarion are EASILY set up in a manner suitable for late 1800's revolvers and repeating rifles.
Yeah I would have to agree, any society that has the metal working and magical ability to craft a golem from iron and make it animate and fight no less can surely scrounge up metal workers (particularly Dwarven metal workers) that are capable of crafting revolvers and repeating rifles, even if the rifles go the route of some in the Borderlands computer game and have large revolver style magazines.
Charles
Revolvers. I think they are a must. There is no reason to play a strictly martial class with multiple attacks when you can't even use those attacks with your signature weapon. That and with the Lightning Reload Deed feat, you will run out of Grit fast from 6th to 10th lvl.
My only advice is to put a stipulation on the revolvers that states that you can either use Rapid Shot or TWF with revolvers, but not both at the same time.
There will be many more guns in UC. While I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of revolvers, I think if you are on this bandwagon, there will be at least one gun in that book that will make you happy.
Now on to other subjects and more playtesting ::crack of the whip::
Revolvers. I think they are a must. There is no reason to play a strictly martial class with multiple attacks when you can't even use those attacks with your signature weapon. That and with the Lightning Reload Deed feat, you will run out of Grit fast from 6th to 10th lvl.
My only advice is to put a stipulation on the revolvers that states that you can either use Rapid Shot or TWF with revolvers, but not both at the same time.
There will be many more guns in UC. While I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of revolvers, I think if you are on this bandwagon, there will be at least one gun in that book that will make you happy.
Now on to other subjects and more playtesting ::crack of the whip::
in time good sir. gotta make the gunslinger npc out tomorrow and ill post the build. wont be able to play him til friday.
I am afraid they will either make guns underpowered, considering there freaking guns (not muskets, real firearms) or overpowered because guns must have high damage and repeat fire to even seem real.
Might make crossbows even less worth taking :(
Might make crossbows even less worth taking :(
not for a rogue, if you play one the way it should be played. one firing of a pistol and everyone knows where you are. firing a crossbow.....just watch The Walking Dead and youll get what im saying.
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Here's a couple of artifacts to keep the PCs scared spitless.
"The Saint of Killers wields two of the most powerful weapons in the universe. Two Walker Colt revolvers crafted from the Sword of the Angel of Death. Because they were meant to aid him in his mission as the Angel of Death they were given special properties.
First off they will never jam, nor will they run out of ammunition or need to be reloaded. But the most important factor of the revolvers is that they will always hit their mark, no matter what they must pass through to reach it. As well, whatever wound is received from the guns shall always be fatal no matter who the victim is even if it is God or The Devil."
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Yeah I would have to agree, any society that has the metal working and magical ability to craft a golem from iron and make it animate and fight no less can surely scrounge up metal workers (particularly Dwarven metal workers) that are capable of crafting revolvers and repeating rifles, even if the rifles go the route of some in the Borderlands computer game and have large revolver style magazines.
I'm reminded of the clockwork rifles in Fable 2.
...Borderlands...
But aside from that, I don't see why revolvers are such a huge problem. If a man could unleash a fire hose of arrows, why would anybody settle for less than that with a gun? Alkenstar has guns, even though bows work perfectly well without magic, so there has to be some reason.
Why not SMGs then?
Because it doesn't fit sword and sorcery fantasy which is what D&D/Pathfinder/Golarion are generally about.
Black powder pistols, sure. Bringing it forward into the Pirates of the Caribbean, Three Musketeers, kind of era.
Bringing it to Wild West etc. just "isn't D&D any more". Bottom line.
Why not SMGs then?
Because it doesn't fit sword and sorcery fantasy which is what D&D/Pathfinder/Golarion are generally about.
Black powder pistols, sure. Bringing it forward into the Pirates of the Caribbean, Three Musketeers, kind of era.
Bringing it to Wild West etc. just "isn't D&D any more". Bottom line.
I would like to point out the nearly 3000 years of gun manufacturing and development that has taken place in Golarion. The Gunworks was established in 1903 AR. The current date in Golarion is 4711!
No they should not have SMGs, they should have bolters.
1e had adventures with frakking rayguns in them.
A wand of Scorching Ray is functionally a laser rifle.
Setting after setting have flying ships and magitech trains!
And to this we are really worried about adding revolvers?
It's an optional class guys, if you don't want to have a gunslinger in your game or if you want a limp noodle firearm fine but those of us who want a gunslinger option don't really want to be stuck with a nonviable build simply because too much tech in your high fantasy offends your sensibility.
Paizo should design good, balanced mechanical rules and leave the decisions as to whether or not a class is appropriate for inclusion in games to the individual DM.
I would say no to revolvers, but no so much to multi-barreled firearms. Even a single shot cartridge firearm would be horrific to game balance.
Why not SMGs then?
Because it doesn't fit sword and sorcery fantasy which is what D&D/Pathfinder/Golarion are generally about.
Black powder pistols, sure. Bringing it forward into the Pirates of the Caribbean, Three Musketeers, kind of era.
Bringing it to Wild West etc. just "isn't D&D any more". Bottom line.
...To you.
Incidentally, man, you would've hated the original D&D, which proudly wore it's trappings as a mix of fantasy and sci-fi - which MOST sci-fi and fantasy was in the 70's. Even Dying Earth which gave D&D their wizards was a sci-fi/fantasy series. Blackmoor had wizards with laser guns.
But hey, I guess the original D&D just wasn't...D&D.
I would say no to revolvers, but no so much to multi-barreled firearms. Even a single shot cartridge firearm would be horrific to game balance.
Again, flying wizards, fireballs.
The complaints about it not being fantasy amuse me.
D&D was not born from medieval Europe and Lord of the Rings. D&D was born from the hilariously awful pulp of the 70's. Certainly Conan was in that list. But then so was Elric, and so was Dying Earth, and so was a huge list of sci-fi / fantasy that was incredibly popular in 70's pulp fiction.
Paizo has the same pulpy roots.
Quite frankly in my opinion, the more you try to pidgeonhole fantasy, the less fantastic it becomes. D&D works best when it's broad. If I want a narrow and specialized game, I'd play a narrow and specialized game. If I wanted nothing but Arthurian knights, then I'd play Pendragon which is built specifically for Arthurian knights. If I wanted cults and mysticism and low magic and sword-and-sandels bronze age style, I'd play HeroQuest.
But when I want medieval knights in ren-era armor worshipping a greek pantheon with modern morality alongside a terrible pastiche of celtic religion and a bizarre magical scientist...well, that's basically D&D. Having a guy with guns isn't going to ruin that.
D&D isn't a narrow or specific game, nor has it ever been. Come on, half the monster manual was developed by Gygax making up monsters out of his kids' toys. It's never been high literature. D&D has from the start been a mush up of popular "nerd things," from Conan the barbarian to Turjan the wizard.
Greyhawk has a god that is literally a cowboy.
As already stated in this thread the Pathfinder Campaign Setting has 6 guns mentioned including the pistol, musket, and revolver. The revolver is identical to the pistol except it's capacity is higher and there's no mention of the pistol having misfire.
Now in comparison with the playtest and PFCS the pistol and musket had a nice boost in damage but took a hit in range so there's probably going to be changes to the firearms overall when UC gets released. I'd say if you want a revolver for playtest just increase the capacity to either 5 or 6 and increase the misfire to 1-2 or 1-3.
Oh and increase the price to say 2200 to 3000 gp. If they want to go guns akimbo with multiple touch attacks make them spend the money to do so.
The complaints about it not being fantasy amuse me.
D&D was not born from medieval Europe and Lord of the Rings. D&D was born from the hilariously awful pulp of the 70's. Certainly Conan was in that list. But then so was Elric, and so was Dying Earth, and so was a huge list of sci-fi / fantasy that was incredibly popular in 70's pulp fiction.
Paizo has the same pulpy roots.
Quite frankly in my opinion, the more you try to pidgeonhole fantasy, the less fantastic it becomes. D&D works best when it's broad. If I want a narrow and specialized game, I'd play a narrow and specialized game. If I wanted nothing but Arthurian knights, then I'd play Pendragon which is built specifically for Arthurian knights. If I wanted cults and mysticism and low magic and sword-and-sandels bronze age style, I'd play HeroQuest.
But when I want medieval knights in ren-era armor worshipping a greek pantheon with modern morality alongside a terrible pastiche of celtic religion and a bizarre magical scientist...well, that's basically D&D. Having a guy with guns isn't going to ruin that.
D&D isn't a narrow or specific game, nor has it ever been. Come on, half the monster manual was developed by Gygax making up monsters out of his kids' toys. It's never been high literature. D&D has from the start been a mush up of popular "nerd things," from Conan the barbarian to Turjan the wizard.
Greyhawk has a god that is literally a cowboy.
Rarity here, but I agree with the Prof. Pathfinder is to me a tool box. Would i be comfortable seeing revolvers in a game about stong aged hunters on an epic quest to save their tribe? No, but if i want to run a game of cowboys and lightning trains, having the tools there for me to use is essential.
When I read through the Gunslinger, one of the things that made me happy was just how exotic and dangerous guns were. You need to be proficient to use them, they have a chance to break down or explode in your face, they're really expensive, and unless you know what you're doing they're not going to be terribly useful. You won't see armies equipped with guns, it's way too expensive.
The pistol and musket provided are looking a lot like some experimental weapon that's just been discovered, and I love it.
my basic gripe is that if revolvers werent going to make it into the book, then this class turns into the alchemist; theres about 2 good builds, and one ok build, and everyones is gonna look the same.
when you take Gunslinger as a class, you are playing a MARTIAL CLASS! a martial class hits (or in this case shoots) things. its not like the damage on the gun is 5d8. im not gonna only make one attack per round or every other round until 11th level when i have multiple attacks. thats just dumb. thats what would make the character bad. no one would play it. thered be no point.
a martial class needs to be able to do what it does best and if it cant get the full extent of his attacks, why are you playing a martial class. its like meleeing with a sorcerer who has a sword. unless your crazy, dumb, or both, you dont do that (unless of course it fits the situation. situation dictates.) but you dont take sorcerer to be a fighter. you take fighter to be a fighter.
giving the class revolvers would make the most out of the class, or drop signature deed and lighting reload deed down to make them more accessible before 6th level. then again, signature deed will only be used for one thing; lightning reload. might as well just name it improved lightning reload then.
oh and if you view Alkenstar as a steampunk type area, steampunk has a LOT of revolvers and is more closely tied to wild west than pirates of the carribbean. just saying.
Or, you can just make a Lightning reload in the image of the Crossbow Mastery feat from the APG :
The problem is this feat will surely become mandatory for any Gunslinger except if multibarrels guns become available.
Lightning Reload (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot.Benefit: The time required for you to reload any type of gun is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of gun used. You can fire a gun as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a gun for the type of gun you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
I would rather see multibarrel guns instead of revolvers, such as the pepperboxes or the triple barrel guns the chinese warriors of Tzun Tzu used (forget their name, saw them on an episode of "deadliest warrior")
The problem with multi-barreled guns is primarily that you still have the issue of reloading the gun in later rounds.
The longbow has the current advantage of being able to do full attacks reliable, over considerable distance, at low cost without running out of ammo in rounds 2 and 3.
The multi-barrel gun (and to an extent the revolver) has the problem of being functionally useless after a single full attack round. Due to the action economy it's really not possible to reload it in later rounds without introducing a free action feat ala the crossbow.
In effect you are creating a single-round salvo that needs to be dropped in later rounds so that you can quickdraw melee weapons.
The ranged touch attack means that it would still be useful for non-gunslingers because touch AC is so much lower than regular AC but for a class specialized in gun usage the idea that the gunslinger should be happy not doing full attacks after the first round is kinda ludicrous.
then again, signature deed will only be used for one thing; lightning reload. might as well just name it improved lightning reload then.
I think Signature Deed gives you the flavor and versatility to really make the Gunslinger your own. Sure, the obvious 'best use' is for Lightning Reload. Hopefully that will change and reload will become a class feature, and/or less necessary given Revolvers/Repeaters. But whether it does or doesn't, look at the options you have with Signature Deed on all of these:
Pistol-Whip: You can always use your guns as melee weapons. At +2. Also at +-whatever the enhancement on a magic gun is. Does Gun Training stack in as well? I would assume the +1 to hit for it does. So you gain +3 and can threaten melee with your guns?
Covering Shot: Everytime you miss a target, they are entangled for a round. Awesome.
Targetting: For free, every round you can either deal normal damage and confuse the target for a round, double your crit range, disarm, or knock prone on a successful hit.
Startling Shot: As Covering shot, except the target is flat footed. Can you stack these? Ridiculous if you can.
Expert Loading: You never have to deal with broken guns again. They will never explode in your face.
Stunning Shot or Deadly Shot: Any time you crit you can choose to do normal damage to instead stun the target or attempt a death effect.
Deft Shootist Feat: You can shoot and reload in melee without provoking AoO all the time.
Ricochet Shot: You don't ever need line of sight to shoot guys if there is a wall nearby. Add in a scope, or burn one grit, and you can do it at any range as a Touch AC attack.
So... really... Signature Deed is ridiculous. Covering/Startling shot with Signature Deed mean that you either hit for damage or miss for a debuff. That's ugly, and I expect it will get nerfed. It's far from just being useful for Lightning Reload.
then again, signature deed will only be used for one thing; lightning reload. might as well just name it improved lightning reload then.Pistol-Whip: You can always use your guns as melee weapons. At +2. Also at +-whatever the enhancement on a magic gun is. Does Gun Training stack in as well? I would assume the +1 to hit for it does. So you gain +3 and can threaten melee with your guns?
So... really... Signature Deed is ridiculous. Covering/Startling shot with Signature Deed mean that you either hit for damage or miss for a debuff. That's ugly, and I expect it will get nerfed. It's far from just being useful for Lightning Reload.
but the problem here is if you dont take signature deed for lightning reload, your never gonna get multiple shots off in a round with your pistol (at least not up to your full attack action number of attacks.)
and yes signature deed is very good and useful all around, but it would be even more versatile if they introduce an improved rapid reload or gun mastery for the reloading problem. but being a gunslinger, im imagining like jesse james or billy the kid or the earp brothers and such. if you cant shoot a number a times per round as you have attacks, your not a gun slinger, your a gun wielder. big difference.
I think you forget that a dev already replied in this very thread stating we would be happy to see the other firearms types that will be coming out, dude. ;) The single shot situation is obviously going to be remedied.
I think you forget that a dev already replied in this very thread stating we would be happy to see the other firearms types that will be coming out, dude. ;) The single shot situation is obviously going to be remedied.
i posted this in another thread but ill repost it here so that this arguement makes sense.
heres the problem. without a revolver type weapon to go off of you cant see how effective the class will be at mid level. the weapons they get in the playtest are very nice to use at lower levels, but the fact that the gunslinger cant upgrade his weapons at around 5th or 6th level is the problem. meaning that looking at the mid level effectiveness of the class is severely nerfed. and one of the biggest problems with this class right now without this information is they dont become good until 11th level.
for a playtest to be viable in my opinion is to not limit what gear they can use. because then you are a gear dependent class already. the reason for the playtest is to judge the abilities of the class and how well they mesh with the rest of the game. with revolvers, the class' playtest is fine. the class is actually very good. without them......not so much.
I think the bigger problem is that the Deeds are uniformly really, really weak, and not even close to being worth the grit they cost - or a feat, for that matter.
I think the bigger problem is that the Deeds are uniformly really, really weak, and not even close to being worth the grit they cost - or a feat, for that matter.
especially since your grit will be around 1-4, those points may go fast. and yes you may gain them back but its hard to crit and kill things when you attack every other round. that means your gunslinger is constantly doing crazy things to get grit back. both funny and bad at the same time.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As already stated in this thread the Pathfinder Campaign Setting has 6 guns mentioned including the pistol, musket, and revolver. The revolver is identical to the pistol except it's capacity is higher and there's no mention of the pistol having misfire.
Good point. As kyrt-ryder pointed out earlier, along with the revolver, the revolving rifle could be added as well. Due to the open design as pointed out in his link, increase the misfire chance.
If they add blunderbuss and the scattergun, I would like rules decreasing damage as the range increment goes up or limiting the amount of range increments. Or maybe a cone of fire...
Murlynd was awesome to read about! Think I'll use the, "They aren't guns, they're two "magical wands" that make loud noises and delivered small but deadly missiles" line a lot. Actually that's not a terrible way to think about firearms rules wise...
The example guns WISH they were as good as magic wands.
A pistol is better than a Wand of Scorching Ray if it never blows up.Actually you would be way better off with a couple wands of Ray of Frost or Acid Splash.
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The example guns WISH they were as good as magic wands.
A pistol is better than a Wand of Scorching Ray if it never blows up.
Actually you would be way better off with a couple wands of Ray of Frost or Acid Splash.
Yeah, but think about it for a moment. You've got the guns firing once per round versus touch AC for roughly what, 11 gold a "charge?" Certainly not a bad base line to consider them from. Not too bad of a slight change for people who have thematic concerns with gunpowder.
Could honestly take the gunslinger and make it use wands and have very similar mechanics too, would be interesting. A couple of magic firearms would be easy to make too with that concept.
The example guns WISH they were as good as magic wands.
A pistol is better than a Wand of Scorching Ray if it never blows up.
Actually you would be way better off with a couple wands of Ray of Frost or Acid Splash.Yeah, but think about it for a moment. You've got the guns firing once per round versus touch AC for roughly what, 11 gold a "charge?" Certainly not a bad base line to consider them from. Not too bad of a slight change for people who have thematic concerns with gunpowder.
Could honestly take the gunslinger and make it use wands and have very similar mechanics too, would be interesting. A couple of magic firearms would be easy to make too with that concept.
Eberron and the artificer had that.
'Course most of the same people railing on guns hated that, too :p