Yes if you are a Ninja. :)1000 gp gun Can i kill and rob the gunslinger yet, just for the gun.
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Or rogue, bard, fighter, or or Any Evil
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While were on this, does the druid spell Heat Metal make the gun explode ??
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What if guns (at least Gunslinger guns) worked more like familiars or animal companions or arcane bond items than regular mundane items? They are so closely tied to the Gunslinger that they simply won't work for someone else; they become a useless mechanical curiosity, worth 0 gp. That way a Gunslinger could start the game with a gun, and potentially even have it stolen from them, without providing a free gold mine for everyone else. Like a familiar, the Gunslinger would have to spend a year crafting a new weapon and bonding with it, putting her soul into it.
I'm not suggesting that all guns work this way. A regular character, especially Fighter, could get a (expensive) gun and learn to become a gun-fighter. But an Gunslinger is almost mystical in her bond with her weapon.
i just thought about that! could I monkey grip a large pistol? lol what fun!
"go ahead make my day"
Basically until rifling. An argument could be made that they were still superior in the hands of a trained user until the modern bullet allowed for things like a repeater rifle, simply because of the firing rate. But yeah...easier to use, ammunition takes up much less space in supply wagons than arrows.Actually, firearms were inferior to longbows for a LONG time. Like well into the 18th century. They're just easier to teach people to use.IMO, any attempt to take superior technology and try to meld it in with existing balance and rule sets in such a way as to "preserve balance" is doomed to failure.
Specifically, trying to reconcile firearms with full-attacking. It makes much more sense to mesh firearms with a single, powerful attack (musket), or two slightly less powerful attacks (flintlock pistols, for example.) The minute we start having old-west style revolvers is its death knell.
Also, you're going to have a hell of a time trying to reconcile the expense of firearms and ammunition with the fact that it's supposed to be a reliable PC class. Pick one.
Even then, untrained users are very inefficient with high rates of fire. The modern firearm is still not that fantastic in the hands of a 2nd level Rogue.
Even then, untrained users are very inefficient with high rates of fire. The modern firearm is still not that fantastic in the hands of a 2nd level Rogue.Basically until rifling. An argument could be made that they were still superior in the hands of a trained user until the modern bullet allowed for things like a repeater rifle, simply because of the firing rate. But yeah...easier to use, ammunition takes up much less space in supply wagons than arrows.Actually, firearms were inferior to longbows for a LONG time. Like well into the 18th century. They're just easier to teach people to use.IMO, any attempt to take superior technology and try to meld it in with existing balance and rule sets in such a way as to "preserve balance" is doomed to failure.
Specifically, trying to reconcile firearms with full-attacking. It makes much more sense to mesh firearms with a single, powerful attack (musket), or two slightly less powerful attacks (flintlock pistols, for example.) The minute we start having old-west style revolvers is its death knell.
Also, you're going to have a hell of a time trying to reconcile the expense of firearms and ammunition with the fact that it's supposed to be a reliable PC class. Pick one.
you mean 2nd level commoner or cleric or wizard.
2nd level Rogue should be able to do precision damage (1d6) from a gun if target is flanked or ambushed. (and within 30 feet)
gunslinger level 1 sell weapons buy hvy armour & normal weapon - advance as other class - huge money to start with for any first level character
I suppose you can do that. Be "rich," and have a crud load of class abilities that are now useless.
Agree on this as well.
This, plus the class can't seem to decide if it's a Western gunslinger, a swashbuckling pistoleer, or one of those weird gun guys from the World of Lone Wolf. I get a little of Wild Arms feel, too, but that's actually the part that I think works best.
Even then, untrained users are very inefficient with high rates of fire. The modern firearm is still not that fantastic in the hands of a 2nd level Rogue.you mean 2nd level commoner or cleric or wizard.
2nd level Rogue should be able to do precision damage (1d6) from a gun if target is flanked or ambushed. (and within 30 feet)
Perhaps I was being too obscure. I was making a quip about the accuracy of real modern criminals, even ones with experience using a gun on the streets. Hitting a live target with a gun is not easy.
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i still havent seen any one make a point why the gunslinger cant use crossbow as well as guns would that not solve the problem.
hell if you ever fried a crossbow in real life, most have pistol grips and fell just like a gun when fired..... kick and every thing
I own several crossbows, both fairly modern ones, and an old one that my father got when he was 10, back in the 50s. The older one is pretty similar to a rifle stock, while my Panzer II is also more rifle-like than a pistol grip. That aside, Crossbows do not kick like a firearm. The force is released and all of the momentum goes forward. A Firearm (I also have them) kicks. My flintlock pistol kicks, and no crossbow is anywhere near that.
-Uriel
i still havent seen any one make a point why the gunslinger cant use crossbow as well as guns would that not solve the problem.
hell if you ever fried a crossbow in real life, most have pistol grips and fell just like a gun when fired..... kick and every thing
I own several crossbows, both fairly modern ones, and an old one that my father got when he was 10, back in the 50s. The older one is pretty similar to a rifle stock, while my Panzer II is also more rifle-like than a pistol grip. That aside, Crossbows do not kick like a firearm. The force is released and all of the momentum goes forward. A Firearm (I also have them) kicks. My flintlock pistol kicks, and no crossbow is anywhere near that.
-Uriel
My hand crossbow doesn't kick either.
That would be because they use a string. And, yeah, the only long gun that feels like a crossbow, recoil-wise, is a .22, and that's because the shake from the string releasing jostles the crossbow about as much as a .22 kicks (if you can even call it a kick). Fire a .308 and a crossbow and get back to me on the kick thing.
I don't even know what a .308 is...
EDIT: Where did it go?
That would be because they use a string. And, yeah, the only long gun that feels like a crossbow, recoil-wise, is a .22, and that's because the shake from the string releasing jostles the crossbow about as much as a .22 kicks (if you can even call it a kick). Fire a .308 and a crossbow and get back to me on the kick thing.
I don't even know what a .308 is...
EDIT: Where did it go?
Simple google search gives you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester
Simple google search gives you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_WinchesterThat would be because they use a string. And, yeah, the only long gun that feels like a crossbow, recoil-wise, is a .22, and that's because the shake from the string releasing jostles the crossbow about as much as a .22 kicks (if you can even call it a kick). Fire a .308 and a crossbow and get back to me on the kick thing.
I don't even know what a .308 is...
EDIT: Where did it go?
Thank you, but I didn't care enough to search. I'm not a gun person.
gunslinger level 1 sell weapons buy hvy armour & normal weapon - advance as other class - huge money to start with for any first level characterI suppose you can do that. Be "rich," and have a crud load of class abilities that are now useless.
Have you ever played a class where you can afford 11gp an attack at level 1?
Have you ever played a class where you can afford 11gp an attack at level 1?gunslinger level 1 sell weapons buy hvy armour & normal weapon - advance as other class - huge money to start with for any first level characterI suppose you can do that. Be "rich," and have a crud load of class abilities that are now useless.
Point taken... yeah. They need to fix that.
50 bullets/powder might last the conservative gunslinger one or two levels at most.
gunslinger level 1 sell weapons buy hvy armour & normal weapon - advance as other class - huge money to start with for any first level characterI suppose you can do that. Be "rich," and have a crud load of class abilities that are now useless.
I wouldn't say useless. At the least, you can use the "Leap for Cover" deed, all weapon proficiencies, 10hp starting, and up to medium armor, by "pre-dipping" into Gunslinger. Also, the Ricochet Shot Deed feat doesn't specify that you have to use firearm attacks, so might be useful to an archer. Then there's the Secret Stash Deed feat, which has been pointed out in another thread to be a good income source.
I wouldn't say useless. At the least, you can use the "Leap for Cover" deed, all weapon proficiencies, 10hp starting, and up to medium armor, by "pre-dipping" into Gunslinger. Also, the Ricochet Shot Deed feat doesn't specify that you have to use firearm attacks, so might be useful to an archer. Then there's the Secret Stash Deed feat, which has been pointed out in another thread to be a good income source.gunslinger level 1 sell weapons buy hvy armour & normal weapon - advance as other class - huge money to start with for any first level characterI suppose you can do that. Be "rich," and have a crud load of class abilities that are now useless.
That's one way of doing things, I suppose.
However, that would be assuming that your GM will be nice enough to throw you a bone; guns are supposed to be rare, hence why they're expensive. No ordinary store is going to have them stocked. You have to get them eventually, of course.
The Secret Stash feat is so metagamey to me that it's stupid. It reeks of Kender.
I think the cost thing and it's potential abuse have been well pointed out, I assume the Dev's will come up with some other mechanic to represent the rarity of the weapon, while the price will remain steep, handing something out like at 1st level is really where it breaks.
I could really have seen the gun slinger as an extension of the alchemist (like an archetype or subclass) i really think it would work better there and int he same feel of the extracts, where if some else tries to use it, it's inert or blows up, or whatever, kinda like someone trying to use a mutagen.
mini bomlets fired from your hand gun for exploding damage? poison bullets?
The gunslinging alchemist would lose extracts but get guns, etc etc...it would work so much better.
would have a class ability giving it some access to fighter feats (like a magus or eldritch knight)
then we can explain guns and bullets and blackpowder with alchemy rather than money.
exploding guns should still be there, and "infused" guns would cost 1000 gp or more (which means they would still be usable by non gunsling alchemy guys) and would still explode and all..
Lets have them still break and what not.
But this should be an alchemist class....no??
I wouldn't say useless. At the least, you can use the "Leap for Cover" deed, all weapon proficiencies, 10hp starting, and up to medium armor, by "pre-dipping" into Gunslinger. Also, the Ricochet Shot Deed feat doesn't specify that you have to use firearm attacks, so might be useful to an archer. Then there's the Secret Stash Deed feat, which has been pointed out in another thread to be a good income source.gunslinger level 1 sell weapons buy hvy armour & normal weapon - advance as other class - huge money to start with for any first level characterI suppose you can do that. Be "rich," and have a crud load of class abilities that are now useless.That's one way of doing things, I suppose.
However, that would be assuming that your GM will be nice enough to throw you a bone; guns are supposed to be rare, hence why they're expensive. No ordinary store is going to have them stocked. You have to get them eventually, of course.
The Secret Stash feat is so metagamey to me that it's stupid. It reeks of Kender.
You don't have to buy guns later - the original point was to take 1 level of gunslinger, sell the guns for starting money, and progress as something else - perhaps a rogue, who could use all the stuff that level of "fighter" provides. A GM might rule that no store buys it, but that isn't rules as written - and I'd point out there is precedent for it being strange for Golarion. In the first AP, there was a shopkeeper who had a magic crossbow for sale, bought from an adventurer short on cash, that she didn't have a buyer for.
As for secret stash... a bit metagamey, yes, but honestly I kind of like it. It is less metagamey than "Crud, I need object X. Can I just subtract the gold and say I bought it in the last town, because my character would have thought to buy it even if I didn't?" (I have had that happen in games, and it annoys the hell out of me.)
52. Angry Bedouins
You wander down the tunnel and out into a dust storm. Somewhere along the way you exitited into a valley. You are instantly taking fire from a group of three Desert Nomads with oddly shaped crossbows that fire repeatedly and with great noise. They keep screaming until the PCs or they are dead.
AK-47: 6 rounds per round (1d8)/Range: 20/60/120
Play The Cleaves and get an AK-47.
Several points...
1. The Lone Ranger made his own bullets.
2. Cheap guns cost less, miss more, and do less damage.
3. The kick, as some experts have pointed out to me, happens a micro second after the bullet leaves the barrel.
4. Bullets are not a magic item, so fabricate can be used to make them.
Hm. I think a possible solution to this could be having normal guns be signifigantly cheaper, but have a higher (doubled?) mis-fire rate. MW guns would have the mis-fire rates printed in the playtest. Starting Gunslingers would NOT get MW guns... this would probably make pistols alot more popular at low levels, since if you doubled the Musket mis-fire rate that would be around 20%.
There could also be wording to the effect that fire-arms are harder to sell than usual in most areas where they aren`t common (outside Alkenstar or possibly Nex), due to a bad reputation for reliability. ...Basically this would increase their effective price when determining if they can find a buyer in given population area (based on population size).
Speaking of mis-fire rates, I can see there being a STANDARD option available to anybody PROFICIENT in Fire-Arm, to spend more time (say a Full-Round Action) in order to take a single shot (without Vital Strike, etc) at half the given mis-fire chance (min 1). This shouldn`t require a Feat beyond Proficiency, or other investment, but should something that you can do by spending extra Actions (F-R actions can by default be split up across 2 rounds with Move+Standard Actions). This is the only way I see NON-Gunslingers using fire-arms in general, barring the specific Reliable enhancements, etc, which I think shouldn`t be the ONLY route.
Not only can you steal the gun, but you can accidently shoot yourself in the foot while demonstrating it to a customer. :)
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Here's an idea; don't set prices based on a fluff world that not everyone uses. Instead set the price in comparison with other weapons in the game, just like it's damage/crit/range values. Problem solved. The fact that paizo decided to lock down a gunslingers weapons without consideration of how the class works or interacts with the rest of the game is boneheaded by itself; to do so for the sake of maintaining a feel of a champaign setting is, to borrow a phrase, pants on head retarded.
You get a gun the same way you get an admantium weapon.
1: You can pull it out of a monstrer's cold dead hand.
2: You can trade someone something they want more.
3: Kill a Kender and see if they already stole one.
4: If there is an evil member in the party, don't ask where they got it from.
5: Go to a pawn shop.
Arcane Bond gives a masterwork item to a wizard with no resale value.
It has resale value. It's just a really really bad thing for the wizard to sell it. :) If you don't think it has resale value, ask the pack of goblins that pile on the wizard and then sell it to a kobold after they have wizard stew. :)
6: A wizard can select a gun as his bonded item and use it to cast an extra magic missle spell. The wizard will still be -4 to hit if he simply fires it. He still has to buy gunpowder and ammo for it if he wants to fire it..
I saw the movie, The Patriot.
With a proper mold you can make 'bullets' out of lead toys.
That does a lb. of lead cost in that world?
I saw the movie, The Patriot.
With a proper mold you can make 'bullets' out of lead toys.
That does a lb. of lead cost in that world?
How much does a bullet weigh?
1 lb. of gold is 50gp.
50gp will get you 100 lead bullets.
1 lb. of silver is 5gp.
5gp will get you 10 lead bullets.
I would surmise that 10 lead bullets != 1 lb., so lead is likely more expensive than silver.
It seems that it's more economical to just use homemade silver bullets. Not only does it save you money, but you're also already prepared for werewolves and anything else that's susceptible to silver.
Heck, copper has a slightly higher melting point than silver, and by the exchange rates, it seems that 1 lb. of copper would cost you 5sp, which is the cost of 1 lead bullet.
Shoot copper bullets. Be a "green" gunslinger, and protect the environment.
With 1 lb. of iron being 1sp, it might be worth it to invest in a crucible to melt iron, and cast iron bullets. Iron's lack of deformation (compared to copper or lead bullets) would provide better armor-piercing capabilities over copper/lead.
Edit: It's also worth noting that silver is lighter than lead, so you'd get more yield out of a pound of silver than you would lead.
Iron is lighter than copper, which is lighter than silver.
The lighter the projectile, the more velocity it will have coming out of the barrel.
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But, that aside, shops kind of do have to be automatic vending machines in anything but homebrew campaign worlds...
I'd venture to say that an overwhelming majority of campaigns, home-brewed or using published campaign worlds, deviate somewhat from the published materials. Which leads into my next question for you: Why do you have such utter contempt for anyone playing in a game that isn't 100% derived from RAW? Imagination is supposed to be a key element to the game. Reading some of your arguments, I picture you GMing a game, the party stepping outside of what the module has prepared, and you just suffering a complete meltdown.
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I'm pretty sure that it applies whether the gun is broken or not, so a non broken gun will not misfire, but if the gun otherwise becomes broken, such as using the gun while not proficient which increases the misfire by 4. I really don't think they would have made a +4 enhancement bonus as useless as you described.A steadfast gun, +4 enhancement bonus, reduces the misfire chance by 2, minimum 0, that means the gun never explodesNo, it reduces the misfire chance by 2 AFTER it gains the broken condition, bringing it down to 3 with a pistol.
So your odds to have it blow up during a full round attack are quite high and your rate of return is quite low when compared to a +5 Bow which will cost slightly less.
Unfortunately it really is that useless...
** spoiler omitted **
As an aside, read it again, you're actually wrong...
It states the modifier is applied AFTER all other modifiers.
When placed on a normal weapon, that weapon has no modifiers, and therefore cannot misfire. The only time your situation applies, is if someone tries to sunder it and only manages to break it instead fo actually destroying the gun.
Lets talk raw, as in raw lead.
Is it rarer than gold? It might be more dangerous to mine.
Not just in the real world, but in legend, song, and story lead was cheap and people wanted to turn it into gold.
So if goblins breed like rats, why don't they mine, make, and sell cheap bullets and buy some guns?
Your character just needs a periapt of proof against poison and he can take profession lead miner. Get a bullet mold and start making big bucks.
This man has your lead, a ton in bricks.
http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/153939-2.htm
Does Cure Disease or Cure Poison remove heavy metal poisoning? Better yet, if you're a necromancer use undead to mine and refine your lead. :P
Does Cure Disease or Cure Poison remove heavy metal poisoning? Better yet, if you're a necromancer use undead to mine and refine your lead. :P
I would say Neutralize Poison would cure heavy metal poisoning.