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The other PDF thread reminded me to post this.
Recently a player at one of my PFS tables showed me a PDF of a book that he had gotten from a friend out west (we're in Arkansas). The PDF was of course legally neither his or his friend's. Now this player is new to roleplaying so I can believe that he was either completely ignorant about PDF piracy or just testing the waters. I gave him the hard line, i.e. "This is a stolen book, you need to buy your own copy, you can't use anything from that book at my table or that of any other PFS GM until you have your own copy and you should delete the PDF." This player assured me that he would comply and I intend to monitor him to ensure it happens, or he'll find himself without a table to play at. I am happy with the situation's resolution as far as this player is concerned.
My issue, and where I would like advice, is how to approach the issue of someone's watermarked PDF being distributed in the first place. I didn't write down the original owner's info, but I am confident that I could get it with little or no fuss. Unfortunately I don't know the circumstances surrounding his PDF being pirated and don't want to assume the worst.
I could just email him and let him know what is going on. Or I could just turn the info over. The latter option seems the most likely and effective. What do the paizonians think?
Tam
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I assume ignorance the first time, as well, and point them to the many legal sources for Paizo information, a lot of it free or very reasonably priced. (Legal ways to purchase the books, both online and in store, and online support such as the PRD, d20PFSRD, etc...)
That said, I only assume ignorance the first time, and then only for new players. Otherwise I take the hardline: If you are going to pirate, you are not playing at my house / this store.
That said I usually have the conversation privately and professionally.
I won't comment on what you should do regarding the information of the stolen PDF, and I think that issue and its discussion is probably best discussed between you and Paizo privately and not on these boards.
I'd probably toss the guy an email to politely let him know that his copy had been pirated, if only because I'd want to know if my copy had been pirated.
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Would it be justified to add a line to the player's last chronicle sheet, to the effect of;
"No valid rules copy held for class/feat/trait/spell/equipment X. Next GM please ensure player has valid book or pdf before play."
It's not accusatory (it's come up before, when someone brought a xerox or scribbled notes), but it ensures the player has to make the effort before that PC's next game.
I removed a couple posts. Please don't advocate illegal activities on our messageboards.
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On a related note.
This hasn't happened to me yet, but I'm always scared to death it will. I keep PDF copies of my entire Pathfinder library on both my PC and laptop. All are bought and paid for with my personal watermark.
What happens if this laptop gets stolen? Normally I wouldn't think twice about it (what thief wants a bunch of gaming PDFs), but since the only time I'm really out with my laptop is at gaming events, the chances of those PDFs making it out to the world of the internet are significant.
What should we do if our PDF library is stolen/lost?
On a related note.
This hasn't happened to me yet, but I'm always scared to death it will. I keep PDF copies of my entire Pathfinder library on both my PC and laptop. All are bought and paid for with my personal watermark.
What happens if this laptop gets stolen? Normally I wouldn't think twice about it (what thief wants a bunch of gaming PDFs), but since the only time I'm really out with my laptop is at gaming events, the chances of those PDFs making it out to the world of the internet are significant.
What should we do if our PDF library is stolen/lost?
Store your PDFs in an encrypted/password protected folder.
Chief Technical Officer
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...Or I could just turn the info over.
Please do. (I'll note that if the files are coming from common sites, odds are good that we've already identified and dealt with the primary offender, but their files will continue to circulate forever...)
What should we do if our PDF library is stolen/lost?
Please let us know as well. Fortunately, unless your library is picked up by a fellow gamer, odds are good that the notion of redistributing your files won't even cross their mind.
For a moment it's flattering, but then you just have to frown and go "...Dude. Seriously?" when someone in your gaming group tells you that they "downloaded your new book and it's really awesome".
Hmm...I guess I just really don't care to police someone's activity. Doe that count as "advocating" illegal activities? If a guy told me he stole his book from the LGS we're playing at, I wouldn't do or say anything simply because I don't care.
Hmm...I guess I just really don't care to police someone's activity. Doe that count as "advocating" illegal activities? If a guy told me he stole his book from the LGS we're playing at, I wouldn't do or say anything simply because I don't care.
I'm in the middle nowadays. I live in Brazil, so my context is truly different.
I have my own, physical copy of corebook and bestiary, plus some bought pdfs of psionics and random suplements.
I don't like piracy very much in this point of my life, but I would NOT kick a player from my table. I have, however, suggested a player to buy the book, going so far as offering my credit card (his wasn't international). There's a fuzzy and warm feeling in having your legal copies :D
So... there you go. I care, but I'd be lying if I said i was the paladine of rpgs.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Hmm...I guess I just really don't care to police someone's activity. Doe that count as "advocating" illegal activities? If a guy told me he stole his book from the LGS we're playing at, I wouldn't do or say anything simply because I don't care.
Seriously? How bizarre...
Out of curiosity, what store do you play at?
I assume ignorance the first time, as well, and point them to the many legal sources for Paizo information, a lot of it free or very reasonably priced. (Legal ways to purchase the books, both online and in store, and online support such as the PRD, d20PFSRD, etc...)
That said, I only assume ignorance the first time, and then only for new players. Otherwise I take the hardline: If you are going to pirate, you are not playing at my house / this store.
That said I usually have the conversation privately and professionally.
I won't comment on what you should do regarding the information of the stolen PDF, and I think that issue and its discussion is probably best discussed between you and Paizo privately and not on these boards.
Good for you, for sticking to your guns!
And seriously, dude should have checked his DM's alignment before showing off his loot...
Hmm...I guess I just really don't care to police someone's activity. Doe that count as "advocating" illegal activities? If a guy told me he stole his book from the LGS we're playing at, I wouldn't do or say anything simply because I don't care.
Then you're doing your FLGS a disservice.
Its things like this that cause so may FLGS owners to give up and go out of business: lack of loyalty.
I wouldn't even want someone with this attitude as a player..
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I'll admit that some of the players at my group have showed up with laptop in hand and pirated PDFs on hard drive. I don't condone it, but my situation was slightly different. They at least all had the books to boot. They just found it easier to lug the laptop around with the PDFs as opposed to lugging around the many books they had.
At the same time that I understand their point-of-view, I suggested one of those rolling suitcases and/or backpacks.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Hmm...I guess I just really don't care to police someone's activity. Doe that count as "advocating" illegal activities? If a guy told me he stole his book from the LGS we're playing at, I wouldn't do or say anything simply because I don't care.Seriously? How bizarre...
Out of curiosity, what store do you play at?
And no response to my question, Elfgasm? You must care enough that you won't say where you play, as you know you if they were aware of your opinion, you won't be welcome in the store. It's people like you that give gamers a bad reputation. It's too bad you feel the need to even bother to share your warped views.
And no response to my question, Elfgasm? You must care enough that you won't say where you play, as you know you if they were aware of your opinion, you won't be welcome in the store. It's people like you that give gamers a bad reputation. It's too bad you feel the need to even bother to share your warped views.Hmm...I guess I just really don't care to police someone's activity. Doe that count as "advocating" illegal activities? If a guy told me he stole his book from the LGS we're playing at, I wouldn't do or say anything simply because I don't care.Seriously? How bizarre...
Out of curiosity, what store do you play at?
+1
though it is worth hm sharing his views. There are a lot of people out there who feel this way and many of them don't understand that this sort of thing hurts the very games and stores they use.
But yeah, you SHOULD care.
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For a moment it's flattering, but then you just have to frown and go "...Dude. Seriously?" when someone in your gaming group tells you that they "downloaded your new book and it's really awesome".
Wow, there are a few moments in life that I hear about and wish I could be there for. This is definately one. Damn hilarious.
Tam
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but I would NOT kick a player from my table.
In my home game things are only slightly different. I would look at my player disdainfully and say "really man, even though I would happily loan you my copy. Delete that crap." The chances of a table boot are pretty slim.
At a PFS table though, there is no grey area. Abide by PFS rules like everyone else, or go play heroclix.
Tam
I'll admit that some of the players at my group have showed up with laptop in hand and pirated PDFs on hard drive. I don't condone it, but my situation was slightly different. They at least all had the books to boot. They just found it easier to lug the laptop around with the PDFs as opposed to lugging around the many books they had.
At the same time that I understand their point-of-view, I suggested one of those rolling suitcases and/or backpacks.
I see this specific situation as one of those grey areas. It's tough for me to worry about someone that owns the physical books.
My decision on something like this would weigh heavily on how well I knew the person doing it and why they were doing it. Also, if it is someone I do not know well but if they can be vouched for by someone I do trust, that will help too. Basically, if I know they tend to do a lot of illegal downloading of films, music, books, etc, whether they re-share or not, then I would not want them using the stuff and I would tend to associate with them as little as possible. However, if they are one of a growing number of people that will download something just so they can see if it is something they want to own and then once they make their decision they delete the illegal copy and purchase a legit copy, those folks I have no problem with, especially the way the economy has been the past couple of years.
Some of the problems with gaming books are: not having a local store to look at the book first before buying, having a store that does not keep in stock what you are interested in, and not having access online to enough of a preview of a book, or no preview at all, in order to make a decision on buying.
And finally, on a PFS-specific front, needing to buy an entire book when all you are ever going to need from that book is a page or two of PFS-legal material. Would it really hurt Paizo sales that much to take all the PFS allowed material from the AP's and their player's guides and a few of the other books where only a page or two of material is legal and bundle it into a single pdf and sell that for $10 or something? We are talking 20 or so books with only a page or two of PFS-legal material apiece, and I bet a lot of pirating of these books at least would be eliminated if something like this could be done.
On a related note.
This hasn't happened to me yet, but I'm always scared to death it will. I keep PDF copies of my entire Pathfinder library on both my PC and laptop. All are bought and paid for with my personal watermark.
What happens if this laptop gets stolen?
Encrypt the hard drive. It's what we do at work with all laptops - I don't know about stationary PCs since everyone in my team has a laptop.
I don't do it with my own computers, but if you're really scared to death, you might want to consider it.
That way, unless someone knows the password for that HD, he has no chance getting anything off it. They can open your computer and take out the HD, it won't do them any good.
Also, lock the computer whenever you're not sitting in front of it.
There's really two issues here. What should you do when a person sits down at your home table with an illegal PDF and what should you do when that same person sits down at your Pathfinder Society game?
As to the first, I don't condone it, and I'd condemn it if asked. That said, the sin is his, not mine, and I don't believe I'd ask him to leave the table. However, as a PFS GM, I'd absolutely make the notation Snorter advocated above, and I'd absolutely enforce it if I was the next guy down the line.
Oh, and piracy is stealing. Nothing else. I like Paizo, a lot. Don't steal from anyone, but especially don't steal from people we like!
Oh, and piracy is stealing. Nothing else. I like Paizo, a lot. Don't steal from anyone, but especially don't steal from people we like!
Argh. Please, no.
Copyright violation is illegal. The copyright holder has the right to say that you're not allowed to make illegal copies of their work. It's their right to do so, and if you violate copyright, you're susceptible to civil penalties.
It's also a crime these days, and you're susceptible to criminal penalties as well.
Don't do it. It's not right.
If you like a publisher's work, pay for it.
Advocate for people obeying copyright, by all means. Encourage them to do so, help them understand the benefits and the negatives, but please don't call it theft.
I like Paizo too. That's why I'm a subscriber.
I'd probably toss the guy an email to politely let him know that his copy had been pirated, if only because I'd want to know if my copy had been pirated.
Agreed! All it takes is for someone to take their PDF to the print shop and one unsavory employee to make a copy of it for the original owner to get burned.
In part, that's why I still haven't printed up any books I buy here at Paizo at my local print shop. I'm too paranoid that everyone's wearing an eyepatch behind my back.
Not every illegal PDF is a lost sale, despite what people at the RIAA claim. Someone in my gaming group purchased the PDF for the Pathfinder Core Rules a while ago, and he gave few copies to the rest of us (He had only 3 takers I believe. Yes, I was one of them) After reading this illegal PDF, I decided to actually buy the book myself, and a month later so did one of the other 2 people who got the copy. Then the two of us who had the PDF copied (and purchased the core rules)for us purchased a bestiary, and our group started playing Pathfinder (none of us were happy with 4th, so we had stayed with 3.5). Eventually 2 other people in our gaming circle purchased the core rules, and then some of the people they know but I don't game with bought the books as well. Plus, I also purchased the APG and the Bestiary 2, and one last person not only purchased all those books, but bought an adventure path (which he is currently running for us atm) and liked that well enough he bought ALL the adventure paths in addition to the supporting books.
Without having seen that illegal PDF none of us would have heard of Pathfinder, which amounts to Paizo losing $20 but gaining over $1000 because of it. Those downloads can also be considered a form of free advertising.
Of course, this also depends on the type of person who get thier hands on it. Most of the people I game with are the type who would either want a book of their very own, or wouldn't be impressed enough to keep using the pdf file.
Except that he could have let each of you borrow a LEGALLY OBTAINED dead tree edition.
And for every person like you who reads a stolen copy and then buys the book, there are a hundred more who just use the stolen copy and never invest any more becuase they have a free copy.
And for every person like you who reads a stolen copy and then buys the book, there are a hundred more who just use the stolen copy and never invest any more becuase they have a free copy.
Can you provide any evidence whatsoever to back this up?
Again - copyright violation is illegal. I'm not condoning it, I'm not justifying it. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same.
Claims like this need to be backed up by evidence, of which I'm willing to bet none exists.
Can you provide any evidence whatsoever to back this up?
Again - copyright violation is illegal. I'm not condoning it, I'm not justifying it. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same.
Claims like this need to be backed up by evidence, of which I'm willing to bet none exists.
Oh, I am sure that there are people who get a pdf they didn't pay for and have zero intention of ever buying the book. The question is how many?
My point is that there is more than one way to look at it. In some cases it is blatant theft, in others it is merely free advertising. The problem the publishers must deal with is how to clamp down on the former without stifling the latter.
I agree, and I don't think anyone is disputing that. I take issue with the claim that "for every sale made due to a illicit copy, there's 100 lost", or the insinuation thereof.
I also take issue with the claim of theft. One can moralize however they want, but it's not actual theft. A> Nothing has actually been taken, the copyright holder is not missing anything that they had before. B> You have to prove that the illicit copy directly correlates to a lost sale before you can equate it to theft/loss of profit.
The issue needs to be addressed honestly, not with hyperbolic emotionally-loaded terms that do not apply.
I agree, and I don't think anyone is disputing that. I take issue with the claim that "for every sale made due to a illicit copy, there's 100 lost", or the insinuation thereof.I get the feeling that most people who pirate would rather go without than have to pay for it. So the "lost sales" argument isn't as convincing to me as it could be. Of course, that feeling is only an opinion, not a backed up fact, so take it for what it is worth.
I share a similar opinion, and that's why I don't make claims like I've taken issue with.
The fact is, there really is no data to back up either side of the argument, and there's no way to get that data.
Anecdotal evidence seems to support our opinion, which is that we've seen the illicit copies in distribution, yet the publishers claim record sales.
Either way, that doesn't necessarily justify certain actions, but it does illuminate an opportunity to the copyright holders.
Back-catalog product that is no longer printed or distributed could, for the most part, easily be made available to those that want it, and for a nominal fee.
I would put money down that said a TON of people who have no way to pay for that content now (because it's not legitimately available) would pay a dollar-per-PDF for, say, 1E/2E books.
It's money that nobody is making, sadly, but the material is still in trade.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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You want some real feedback... most folks don't care about this stuff, and will download whatever they can for free if they can get away with it. Not saying that I do this, but I wouldn't care if others do it, and would allow them to game at my table with pirated data. There are other things that I do care about, and this is just... nonsense in comparison.
It's easy to hold this view when your ability to pay the rent doesn't hinge on people buying legal copies of your work rather than downloading them for free.
I also take issue with the claim of theft. One can moralize however they want, but it's not actual theft. A> Nothing has actually been taken, the copyright holder is not missing anything that they had before. B> You have to prove that the illicit copy directly correlates to a lost sale before you can equate it to theft/loss of profit.
This is why it's called Piracy and not Theft.
Copyright means exactly that, the "right to copy." When copies are made and distributed without the permission of the copyright holder, the copyright holder does in fact lose something. They lose the ability to control who copies their intellectual property and under what terms. The intellectual property itself becomes less valuable, both because it becomes harder to sell legitimate copies in a marketplace riddled with counterfeits and bootlegs, and because anyone who would buy the rights wholesale would face the former problem.
And while it is difficult (at best) to prove that a particular download is a lost sale, it isn't exactly unreasonable to assume that at least some downloads are lost sales, or that the potential availability of illicit free copies devalues legitimate copies somewhat.
Nor do I accept the "it's like a free trial" argument (not that you made it, Brian, but some people in this thread have), because if a copyright holder believes a free trial is in their best interest, they can provide one. If they don't want to, that's their legal right, and its their loss if you decide you won't buy their product otherwise.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I would note that there is a loophole in copyright law for legitimate piracy. However, to use it, you must be a Qualified Registered Pirate, which requires, among other things, that you have a peg leg, an eye patch, and a parrot.
The qualification process is easier if the parrot speaks only in profanities, but that is not strictly required.
And for every person like you who reads a stolen copy and then buys the book, there are a hundred more who just use the stolen copy and never invest any more becuase they have a free copy.Can you provide any evidence whatsoever to back this up?
Again - copyright violation is illegal. I'm not condoning it, I'm not justifying it. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same.
Claims like this need to be backed up by evidence, of which I'm willing to bet none exists.
I don't have 100, but back when I ran Warhammer for a uFLGS in Syracuse, we'd sometimes get 20-30 players at a time. As soon as one of the locals got a PDF (or worse, one of the playrs who woorked at Kinkos ran off a copy) we'd see a dozen or more "unofficial" books. At the time, there were no PDFs of the WH rules, so anything that showed up as one was illegal.
When I ran a tournament, you had to ahve your own rulebook (and with warhammer and the beardiness of some players, it was used every 5-10 minutes at some tables) so one time we had to disqualify HALF the players. And this was months after the codexs in question were out. THere were lots of players (who didnt play official tournaments) who never bought a single rulebook.
When I ran 3.5 Eberron, I had a gamer who had most of the 3.0/3.5 books on a flash drive. He'd make CDs for anyone who wanted. We sometimes did RPGA events where whole tables had no rulebooks whatsoever, just laptops and copies of his PDFs.
And this hurt the uFLGS. (Which I'm sure contributed to the "u" part = unfriendly.)
At one time, I had a copy of the PDFs and the ones that WERE watermarked had the names of people I'd never met. Nor the gamer in question. (I got rid of the disc later).
The thing is, and yes, this IS anecdotal from working in and volunteering in several game stores, a good chunk of the gmaers out there are cheap. And power hungry. They won't bother paying for something they can easily steal. If they can get a stolen PDF, well, tat's $20 they have to spend on Magic Cards or what have you.
I'm not saying all gamers are like this, or even the majority. But they should't get a pass.
I'll admit that even my feelings get a bit fuzzy around things that have been out of print for 20 years. (There used to be a place where you could download all of the TFT books for free.)
But, with games that are still in print, I think people should pay for them. If you're too cheap to pay, then don't play. Or borrow a friend's hardcover.
Otherwise, you're stealing from the people who make the games and the people who sell them. And a lot of those FLGS will give you a place to play for free...
Can you provide any evidence whatsoever to back this up?
Again - copyright violation is illegal. I'm not condoning it, I'm not justifying it. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same.
Claims like this need to be backed up by evidence, of which I'm willing to bet none exists.
Oh, I am sure that there are people who get a pdf they didn't pay for and have zero intention of ever buying the book. The question is how many?
My point is that there is more than one way to look at it. In some cases it is blatant theft, in others it is merely free advertising. The problem the publishers must deal with is how to clamp down on the former without stifling the latter.
So if I steal 10 cases of Pepsi from the back of the delivery truck to use at my party, it should just be overlooked because it's basically free advertising for Pepsi and maybe a few of my friends will buy Pepsi instead of Coke?
That's the same arguement.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I would note that there is a loophole in copyright law for legitimate piracy. However, to use it, you must be a Qualified Registered Pirate, which requires, among other things, that you have a peg leg, an eye patch, and a parrot.
The qualification process is easier if the parrot speaks only in profanities, but that is not strictly required.
Well I suppose you could get Congress to write you a letter or Marque...
I used to pirate a lot of stuff, usually PDFs of DTF books I already had. I've 'gotten better' (replaced my illegal PDFs with purchased PDFs) so I'd be a bit miffed if my PDFs got lifted. I'll admit this conversion came because a) I wasn't drowning in debt b) I grew up and c) I got to know the faces behind the books.
Now I don't condone it, I condemn it. RPGs, Music, other electronic media are not like bread and butter, they're not required for life. And yeah, I'd boot anyone who showed up at a PFS table with pirated copies. When part of organized play is to increase sales and distribution, turning a blind eye to pirates (and thieves for the game stores) is even more wrong, if you're measuring levels of 'wrong'
So if I steal 10 cases of Pepsi from the back of the delivery truck to use at my party, it should just be overlooked because it's basically free advertising for Pepsi and maybe a few of my friends will buy Pepsi instead of Coke?
That's the same arguement.
Not really, because a tangible object has been stolen. Material costs have been lost in that theft.
This is why it's called Piracy and not Theft.
I'm not keen on the use of the word piracy, but I have less issue with it than theft.
Copyright means exactly that, the "right to copy." When copies are made and distributed without the permission of the copyright holder, the copyright holder does in fact lose something. They lose the ability to control who copies their intellectual property and under what terms. The intellectual property itself becomes less valuable, both because it becomes harder to sell legitimate copies in a marketplace riddled with counterfeits and bootlegs, and because anyone who would buy the rights wholesale would face the former problem.
I get that.
And while it is difficult (at best) to prove that a particular download is a lost sale, it isn't exactly unreasonable to assume that at least some downloads are lost sales, or that the potential availability of illicit free copies devalues legitimate copies somewhat.
I don't disagree, but I also don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that a good amount of said downloads are to people that never would have purchased them, and that another amount actually do lead to sales. But, you address that here:
Nor do I accept the "it's like a free trial" argument (not that you made it, Brian, but some people in this thread have), because if a copyright holder believes a free trial is in their best interest, they can provide one. If they don't want to, that's their legal right, and its their loss if you decide you won't buy their product otherwise.
Nope, I don't think that you're aiming that at me, and I agree, it's the copyright holder's decision to allow that free trial.
It would be nice to find a happy medium. Paizo's subscribtion system goes a long ways towards that, but unfortunately, for back issues, it's sorely lacking. I don't have PDFs for material prior to starting my subscription. I want them, but I'm not going to pay near-print-retail prices for them when I already own the print versions (my last shipment from Paizo completed my collection of "all print product").
This is part of that grey area (or, at least, grey to me) I've brought up. I personally don't have the PDFs of the earlier stuff (for lack of looking, I'm sure), and I'd love to be able to give you folks a reasonable amount of money for them. Obviously, I disagree with whoever sets the prices on PDFs on what is reasonable. :) Were someone in a similar situation to me to acquire those PDFs outside of their only legitimate channel, I'd have a hard time being worked up about it.
The other part of that grey area comes into play when we're talking about material that has no legitimate source. I think the ultimate solution would be restoring early copyright terms, which would provide a legal means to access that out-of-print/out-of-distribution content, but that's a separate debate.
That's the same arguement.
No, it's exactly not.
(It's 2011. People still manage to botch up this issue?)
Advocate for people obeying copyright, by all means. Encourage them to do so, help them understand the benefits and the negatives, but please don't call it theft.I'm no law expert, so this may be a stupid question, but how is it not theft?
If I go into a game store, and steal a physical book, they have one less book. They have lost something that they payed for.
If I download a copy of a book that I didn't pay for, there is nothing missing. No physical item has been lost. MORE of something exists, because I now have a copy. The owner still has his/her copy. A legitimate argument can be made for a lost sale, a loss of revenue, but not an actual theft.
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So, isn't it a case of the term "theft" being antiquated. If I "robbed" some investment fund by hacking into their accounts and taking all the money they'd in it, it also wouldn't be theft, because that money doesn't exist in the real world, only in the virtual world?
A better example might be that someone takes a copy of a PDF that they "stole" from the publisher to a printer and prints 1000 copies of the book. They then sell that book (at cost), or even give copies away. No physical media has been taken, but it was created and distributed.
-Skeld