It also took some fun out of being a spell caster, Or Dming for spell casters, they should be slightly crazed and always looking for stuff to cast their spells.
If you think the accounting of tracking bat dung was fun, I question whether you know what "fun" means.
Actually I'm going to upgrade that from questioning to flat-out saying that you don't know what "fun" means.
Strange. I had the most amount of fun in low-level 2nd ed adventures seeking out spell components- it was entry-level work for the adventuring guild my friend used as a launching point for his campaigns.
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It also took some fun out of being a spell caster, Or Dming for spell casters, they should be slightly crazed and always looking for stuff to cast their spells.
If you think the accounting of tracking bat dung was fun, I question whether you know what "fun" means.
Actually I'm going to upgrade that from questioning to flat-out saying that you don't know what "fun" means.
It wasn't quite like that, but having to track components and remember to buy them between sessions when you got low were a nice brake on the power of wizards. A "balancing" rule, if you will.
In Pathfinder, RAW, for 5gp at first level, you have every spell component you ever need that isn't specifically costed in the spell description for the rest of your career. There isn't a rule I can find anywhere that says a component pouch ever runs out or needs to be replenished. It's like a 5gp handy haversack of spontaneously appearing bat s&#$.
That's insane.
I used to have to think about which spells I cast a lot in 1e. If I ran out of guano, fireball was right out until I could get more, and I had to figure out other solutions for some problems. I had to make sure I had an ample selection of no "m" component spells I could fall back on. I had to actually consider all kinds of stuff. And it WAS fun. And sometimes funny.
Fighter: "Whoa, that's a lot of orcs, maybe you should drop a fireball on them"
Wizard: "I used the last of my guano on that basilisk you were too cowardly to fight, remember?"
Fighter: "Oh..."
Wizard: "There's sand here, so I can put most of them to sleep, but you're going to have to get your sword dirty, sorry"
Fighter: "Sigh..."
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Strange. I had the most amount of fun in low-level 2nd ed adventures seeking out spell components- it was entry-level work for the adventuring guild my friend used as a launching point for his campaigns.
It also took some fun out of being a spell caster, Or Dming for spell casters, they should be slightly crazed and always looking for stuff to cast their spells.
If you think the accounting of tracking bat dung was fun, I question whether you know what "fun" means.
Actually I'm going to upgrade that from questioning to flat-out saying that you don't know what "fun" means.
Yeah, and they were some of the best "role" playing moments a lot of the time.
Strange. I had the most amount of fun in low-level 2nd ed adventures seeking out spell components- it was entry-level work for the adventuring guild my friend used as a launching point for his campaigns.
It also took some fun out of being a spell caster, Or Dming for spell casters, they should be slightly crazed and always looking for stuff to cast their spells.
If you think the accounting of tracking bat dung was fun, I question whether you know what "fun" means.
Actually I'm going to upgrade that from questioning to flat-out saying that you don't know what "fun" means.
Like some sort of scavenger hunt:
"OK, the mage's guild needs a piece of cobweb, a short string, a pinch of bat guano, a small, golden bell, and some powdered silver. First one back with everything gets a piece of candy!"
In Pathfinder, RAW, for 5gp at first level, you have every spell component you ever need that isn't specifically costed in the spell description for the rest of your career. There isn't a rule I can find anywhere that says a component pouch ever runs out or needs to be replenished. It's like a 5gp handy haversack of spontaneously appearing bat s@!#.
It's assumed - because to do otherwise is stupid, tedious and boring - that you just pick up stuff to replenish it in the course of adventuring.
And where are you going to get bat guano anyway? Nowhere, that's where. Every been in a cave with bats? Or just a cave? No. It's always some old, magically trapped dungeon complex or shrine or dragon cave. There's not a damn bat anywhere.
He has to be trolling. It's not even funny trolling; it's just bad.
It also took some fun out of being a spell caster, Or Dming for spell casters, they should be slightly crazed and always looking for stuff to cast their spells.
If you think the accounting of tracking bat dung was fun, I question whether you know what "fun" means.
Actually I'm going to upgrade that from questioning to flat-out saying that you don't know what "fun" means.
again your missing the fact you don't have to account for it like arrows, just make it part of the game.
If the casters know they have to keep updating their supply by simply saying that they do.They wont question actual effort and game play surrounding 500 gp of crushed black pearl, or not being able to cast the spell because they don't have it and said nearby town doesn't either.
Also if BBEG has the spell, and you take him down before he gets that spell off, logic dictates he has the spell component too, aha! instant treasure!
Rare Spell components and Spell books used to be treasure too. too much hand waving with "you just know whatever spell you want to know"
Strange. I had the most amount of fun in low-level 2nd ed adventures seeking out spell components- it was entry-level work for the adventuring guild my friend used as a launching point for his campaigns.
It also took some fun out of being a spell caster, Or Dming for spell casters, they should be slightly crazed and always looking for stuff to cast their spells.
If you think the accounting of tracking bat dung was fun, I question whether you know what "fun" means.
Actually I'm going to upgrade that from questioning to flat-out saying that you don't know what "fun" means.
Like some sort of scavenger hunt:
"OK, the mage's guild needs a piece of cobweb, a short string, a pinch of bat guano, a small, golden bell, and some powdered silver. First one back with everything gets a piece of candy!"
Yes and no. Spell components were gooier in those days, we had to bring back troll body parts, the right hand of a wronged man, things like that. Some of them were actual stuff out of the book, others were macguffins to get the game rolling.
you always hear all these posts about how much better a wizard/cleric is than a melee type.
IT all boils down to these people don't track their wizards.
Tedious, boring, book keeping, yada yada yada.
try BALANCE.
thats WHY the wizard is more powerful, because you stole some of his balance by hand waving components.
Spellcasters aren't ray guns, they have more restrictions on them than that.
AND by extension so do magic ITEMS.
I think taking the XP cost and in some cases stat drain away from magic item creation was a tragedy. But ti was probably done to save print space because most people were hand waving it anyway, because it was tedious and less fun!
balderdash.
Play final fantasy then.
IF you're playing "high magic world" some of that hand waving falls into the 'whatever' category.
But the OP/threads purpose is to discuss how/why just purchasing/creating magic items affects a normal adventuring campaign.
The answer is, adversely.
How did this degradation of gaming in the standard fantasy world come about? why so many magic items? why this assumption wizards rule?
simple
Ive been saying it all along, lack of following EXISTING rules for using material components.
Archers have to buy more arrows, Casters have to acquire more components and as a result might not have all the components to cast all their favorite or best spells.
Oh my can't find bat guano growing on trees? Maybe you should accompany the archer into town then when he goes to buy arrows, you can go to see if you can buy some bat dooky!
It's not Tediousness, It's laziness, causing the boastful ray-gun effect that has now been part of the game for years.
If you dont like it, take eschew materials, oh no! use up a feat slot?? how horrible!
thats the point fluffy.
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Strange. I had the most amount of fun in low-level 2nd ed adventures seeking out spell components- it was entry-level work for the adventuring guild my friend used as a launching point for his campaigns.
It also took some fun out of being a spell caster, Or Dming for spell casters, they should be slightly crazed and always looking for stuff to cast their spells.
If you think the accounting of tracking bat dung was fun, I question whether you know what "fun" means.
Actually I'm going to upgrade that from questioning to flat-out saying that you don't know what "fun" means.
Like some sort of scavenger hunt:
"OK, the mage's guild needs a piece of cobweb, a short string, a pinch of bat guano, a small, golden bell, and some powdered silver. First one back with everything gets a piece of candy!"
In Pathfinder, RAW, for 5gp at first level, you have every spell component you ever need that isn't specifically costed in the spell description for the rest of your career. There isn't a rule I can find anywhere that says a component pouch ever runs out or needs to be replenished. It's like a 5gp handy haversack of spontaneously appearing bat s@!#.It's assumed - because to do otherwise is stupid, tedious and boring - that you just pick up stuff to replenish it in the course of adventuring.
And where are you going to get bat guano anyway? Nowhere, that's where. Every been in a cave with bats? Or just a cave? No. It's always some old, magically trapped dungeon complex or shrine or dragon cave. There's not a damn bat anywhere.
Um, obviously we are playing completely different games. And two people just said they had fun with it, so thank you for calling us tedious, boring and stupid.
And, you do realize bat guano has been used as a fertilizer for thousands of years, right? I'm sure farmers in Golarion use it. They do in my homebrew. And that magic shop you want to exist? S$&%, just pick up more components while you're there. I just want the damned spell component pouch quantified (you get x amount of castings per pouch), because that would ALSO go a long way towards balancing the classes. If the wizard actually can run out of components, they're more circumspect about their spell selection and more conservative about casting just to have something to do that round even though the spell isn't really needed to beat the encounter. Which also helps eliminate the 15 minute adventuring day (at least until teleport comes on line) since you're not just finding a place to rest, it's going back and getting more components (or finding them in the field if you can) when you run out.
thats WHY the wizard is more powerful, because you stole some of his balance by hand waving components.
No, no it isn't.
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Yes and no. Spell components were gooier in those days, we had to bring back troll body parts, the right hand of a wronged man, things like that. Some of them were actual stuff out of the book, others were macguffins to get the game rolling.Strange. I had the most amount of fun in low-level 2nd ed adventures seeking out spell components- it was entry-level work for the adventuring guild my friend used as a launching point for his campaigns.
It also took some fun out of being a spell caster, Or Dming for spell casters, they should be slightly crazed and always looking for stuff to cast their spells.
If you think the accounting of tracking bat dung was fun, I question whether you know what "fun" means.
Actually I'm going to upgrade that from questioning to flat-out saying that you don't know what "fun" means.
Like some sort of scavenger hunt:
"OK, the mage's guild needs a piece of cobweb, a short string, a pinch of bat guano, a small, golden bell, and some powdered silver. First one back with everything gets a piece of candy!"
Umber hulk blood, demon ichor, yeah.
My point is, if it only cost 5gp at first level, why have material components at all? Since, the next argument d&#+&#+ is going to come back with is that targeting component pouches is a dick move. It's a stupid piece of fluff there for no reason for any spell without an expensive component.
Utterly pointless, and if a rule has zero point, it shouldn't exist.
Um, obviously we are playing completely different games. And two people just said they had fun with it, so thank you for calling us tedious, boring and stupid.
I find your lack of understanding of English grammar disturbing.
And, you do realize bat guano has been used as a fertilizer for thousands of years, right? I'm sure farmers in Golarion use it. They do in my homebrew.
You could at least TRY not to negate your own arguments.
I just want the damned spell component pouch quantified (you get x amount of castings per pouch), because that would ALSO go a long way towards balancing the classes.
No, it really wouldn't.
If the wizard actually can run out of components, they're more circumspect about their spell selection and more conservative about casting just to have something to do that round even though the spell isn't really needed to beat the encounter. Which also helps eliminate the 15 minute adventuring day
Please explain in detail how forcing casters to keep up with ridiculous number of non-valued spell components to cast spells would be a move towards fixing the 15 minute adventuring day as opposed to making it all the more obvious
My point is, if it only cost 5gp at first level, why have material components at all? Since, the next argument d*#**~@ is going to come back with is that targeting component pouches is a dick move. It's a stupid piece of fluff there for no reason for any spell without an expensive component.Utterly pointless, and if a rule has zero point, it shouldn't exist.
Good. Everyone gets Eschew Materials for free in your game. And they are all saved from idiotic minutiae like spending a week finding the one cave inhabited by bats instead of Orcs.
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Good. Everyone gets Eschew Materials for free in your game. And they are all saved from idiotic minutiae like spending a week finding the one cave inhabited by bats instead of Orcs.
My point is, if it only cost 5gp at first level, why have material components at all? Since, the next argument d*#**~@ is going to come back with is that targeting component pouches is a dick move. It's a stupid piece of fluff there for no reason for any spell without an expensive component.Utterly pointless, and if a rule has zero point, it shouldn't exist.
What's the difference between Eschew Materials and a spell component pouch? One cost 5gp once at 1st level, the other cost a feat slot.
Everyone gets it for free (well, 5gp) if there aren't a specific number of castings per pouch.
Why burn a feat on something you get for free?
What's the difference between Eschew Materials and a spell component pouch? One cost 5gp once at 1st level, the other cost a feat slot.
Presuming you were under one of the few scenarios in which you needed access to components but didn't have your pouch, you couldn't cast.
Why burn a feat on something you get for free?
Why ever get Silent or Still Spell?
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What's the difference between Eschew Materials and a spell component pouch? One cost 5gp once at 1st level, the other cost a feat slot.Presuming you were under one of the few scenarios in which you needed access to components but didn't have your pouch, you couldn't cast.
Why burn a feat on something you get for free?Why ever get Silent or Still Spell?
Because you can't buy them for 5gp.
And, according to you playstyle, attacking the component pouch is a dick move. So, if I ever took your pouch, I'd expect you to cry like a three year old and leave my game.
Because you can't buy them for 5gp.
Which doesn't remotely constitute an answer.
What significant bonuses do Silent and Still Spell convey to be worth a feat?And, according to you playstyle, attacking the component pouch is a dick move. So, if I ever took your pouch, I'd expect you to cry like a three year old and leave my game.
According to "my playstyle?" What the hell are you talking about? Why don't you man up and go ahead and point to all the posts I've made about "my playstyle" to prove the assertion you pulled out of your pouch of bs assertions?
And while you are at it, you can go look up the "historical" weight of coins so you can tell your party that everyone but the Dwarf is encumbered because of how many coins they have.
Never mind all the spell components they have.
What's the difference between Eschew Materials and a spell component pouch? One cost 5gp once at 1st level, the other cost a feat slot.Presuming you were under one of the few scenarios in which you needed access to components but didn't have your pouch, you couldn't cast.
Why burn a feat on something you get for free?Why ever get Silent or Still Spell?Because you can't buy them for 5gp.
And, according to you playstyle, attacking the component pouch is a dick move. So, if I ever took your pouch, I'd expect you to cry like a three year old and leave my game.
+1 I was thinking the same thing.
Would cast's grace work right if the cat's fur was wet?
what if the fur was from a tiger and not an alley cat?
All of that can lead to fun.
Not just "I cast the spell and beat the enemy, yay!"
That's not role playing that's video gaming.
cartigan, i suppose in your games, archers all get free quivers of endless arrows too?
Ever try carrying 100 arrows around?
We actually have a group where the wizard wears a quiver just to help the archer pack more arrows into the wild.
ever notice how much better a longbow is than most weapons? because it has a draw back, ammunition.
Fireball is better than a greatsword unless you dont have the component on hand.
If you adventure in a world, where that can NEVER happen, you have unbalanced the game, and robbed people of adventuring fun.
Fun, yes i said Fun. The Fun that existed LONG before you were born, obviously.
The Fun that existed when find magic weapons was rare and a ring of invisibility was "ooh ahh"
Some people , like the OP are looking FOR that fun.
Like i said there is time for hand waving, efficent quiver? excuse to hand wave arrows.
Handy haversack devoted to spell components sure hand wave them, if you like, until the haversack gets ganked on you.
dimensional holes where people hide spell books?
gee you NEVER get attacked while studying your spell book, EVER?
if you dont think the wizard is too powerful because he isnt required to track his components, or that actually tracking them wont balance him out then why wont you play in a campaign where this happens?
Because it's tedious and boring, that's an opinion not a fact.
you can't take away (or insult) other people's opinions of having fun with it, by forcing your own opinion.
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Because you can't buy them for 5gp.Which doesn't remotely constitute an answer.
What significant bonuses do Silent and Still Spell convey to be worth a feat?And, according to you playstyle, attacking the component pouch is a dick move. So, if I ever took your pouch, I'd expect you to cry like a three year old and leave my game.According to "my playstyle?" What the hell are you talking about? Why don't you man up and go ahead and point to all the posts I've made about "my playstyle" to prove the assertion you pulled out of your pouch of bs assertions?
And while you are at it, you can go look up the "historical" weight of coins so you can tell your party that everyone but the Dwarf is encumbered because of how many coins they have.
Never mind all the spell components they have.
I use the quarter as the standard size and weight. They're 7.5 grams.
I removed an attempt to drag real-world politics into this thread.
I also suggest that a few people step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath. There's no point in getting upset over an argument on the internet.
Back to the original topic YES. Artifacts up to the artifact.
Reason, allot more dead people than live people. Allot more items have been created than could ever be considered.
I think the most important consideration is GM's giving out excess gold. Higher than average for a pc's level.
At almost any level pc's should definately be able to purchase any item they have the gold for.
Several examples.. X < +5
A large religion worshipped and has churches all over, clerics hears that some pc's are in town looking for a +X weapon.
Reasoning; taxes are coming, we have several vaults and a couple of +X weapon, time to liquidate to pay liability. Our faith would be better served selling dead John +X weapon.
A mage guild, hears PC's are in town and are looking for a Major Magic Item. Reasoning - Arch Mage taxes are due, I can create that item enjoy a 50% mark up and still enjoy the benefits of keeping my portal secure to the Brass Plane they have the hottest magic items there anyway.
Artifacts are a bit touchy, but I would say yes. Allow a little RP.
Examples.. X > +5
PC's are in town, they are a common name by now, they employ 30% of the town due to tipping a platinum, convoys are ordered due to educated apetites. Dwarven whiskey, elven wine, blood of pixes, shank of unicorn. No sleeping on the floor for these fine folks, over the course of traveling they have had rooms built and reserved. Townsmen go out of the way to help these rockstars. Rumors circulate these PC's are so rich they no longer carry gold. Platinum is their throw away currency, Gems and precious stones are the currency of these adventurers.
Mage guild - Archmage has heard pc's are in need of a +x weapon or an artifact. These are fine adventureres, I have enjoyed their business. I have 10 portals secured to 10 planes, I have dignitaries on each plane. I think I know a place to get that +x weapon. What? They want that artifact of demon extermination. Lets see, I can make allot of money off this one.... I am very smart I know a Lich that will sell me one for 1/2 price. I think I can make a huge profit or perhaps the adventures could dispose of the Lich for me. I have heard his plans to trade magic items in the 9 Hells...
Church - Those adventurer's need a +x weapon, just on the remove blindess spell we have made a hug profit. Our god must favor us for pointing these adventurers to us. We have a church devoted to scribing spells just to sell to these folks. We are amazed the foolishness they get in. We pray for a spell and cast it boom 150 gold for a second level spell. Of course we will find and sell you that +10 dagger, we have a liason to the throne, he know's where one is...
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And, according to you playstyle, attacking the component pouch is a dick move. So, if I ever took your pouch, I'd expect you to cry like a three year old and leave my game.Actually sundering a spell component pouch (or stealing it) is a very valid tactic.
Its up there with the old shatter on the cleric's holy symbol.
If the wizard (or cleric) is smart then they have backups.
If they're not then they're just as screwed as the fighter who only had one weapon and it just got disarmed and taken away...
-James
There are about three "War and Peace"s worth of writing by people on these boards crying about DMs targeting spell pouches.
That "valid tactic" is apparently frowned upon greatly. Like sundering swords, etc.
And, according to you playstyle, attacking the component pouch is a dick move. So, if I ever took your pouch, I'd expect you to cry like a three year old and leave my game.Actually sundering a spell component pouch (or stealing it) is a very valid tactic.
Its up there with the old shatter on the cleric's holy symbol.
If the wizard (or cleric) is smart then they have backups.
If they're not then they're just as screwed as the fighter who only had one weapon and it just got disarmed and taken away...
-James
There are about three "War and Peace"s worth of writing by people on these boards crying about DMs targeting spell pouches.
That "valid tactic" is apparently frowned upon greatly. Like sundering swords, etc.
None of which are in this thread nor what this thread is about.
Complaining about the pointless tedium of record keeping about spell component pouches is the same as complaining about sundering/breaking/stealing component pouches in the same way that saying an airplane is a duck.
I don't mean to tell people how to play -- my biggest issue is that I don't see a way to make outlawing magical items work. If someone could show me a way to make it honestly work I would be okay with the idea for a campaign where it is that way but every part of my brain says, "I can think of so many ways around such laws already and I'm not even really started -- what's someone that really cares going to think of? And how are you going to prevent it from happening?"
Now if the GM was to say, "Look this will be a low magic item campaign and no one may take magic item creation feats beyond craft potion, and scribe scroll."
I would play such a campaign but I just don't see a way to leave magical items in and outlawing them (effectively) at the same time.
There are about three "War and Peace"s worth of writing by people on these boards crying about DMs targeting spell pouches.
That "valid tactic" is apparently frowned upon greatly. Like sundering swords, etc.
I think the problem is that, basically: What does it get you?
Okay, so you caught one wizard in your gaming group with only one spell component pouch which got snatched. Thereafter every wizard/cleric/etc. in your gaming group -- not just in that campaign, but forever -- will have several if they're remotely paying attention, and that tactic never works again (worse, they probably would actually want you to waste a round sundering the pouch instead of mauling them), so what, really, was the point?
It seems to me that unless you have players dense enough to let the same easily beaten tactic work on them again and again, you might as well just cut to the chase and skip it.
Without saying anyones name, do you know how extremely silly some people appear. Arguing a redundant point, or whats worse copying and pasting each others points, or even worse copying and pasting you own replies to and earlier point that you have already qouted.
Allot, of people on the boards can read, and believe it or not; have a short term memory longer than 2 posts.
I don't mean to tell people how to play -- my biggest issue is that I don't see a way to make outlawing magical items work.
I cannot speak for a total removal - (barring campaign flavour, magic items are fun!) but one hing I'm sure of when there are few around: encounters are designed to be slightly (generally) under CR, and use more weaker monsters because they have smaller numbers.
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Without saying anyones name, do you know how extremely silly some people appear. Arguing a redundant point, or whats worse copying and pasting each others points, or even worse copying and pasting you own replies to and earlier point that you have already qouted.
Allot, of people on the boards can read, and believe it or not; have a short term memory longer than 2 posts.
Had to be done.
hey derek remember in 1e when a fireball required individual saves on everything? (which would have included your spell pouch) oh the agony!
I played a wizard during the slave lord modules back then, i think i hit more things with my dart than anything, since half way through you start out naked with a loin cloth (which i took off and used as a sling so i was a wizard going commando)
also what about new feats like improved steal? What else to do with that than swipe a spell pouch? It's like a tailor made feat specifically for that!
Anyway
Magic items aren't magic, if they are common.
If there are too many magic items in the party, it draws away from the wizards (or other spell casters) oompf, and makes it too easy for the spell caster to not take buffs anymore, which gives him too many slots for offensive spells, and thus unbalances the game, and makes the fighter "obsolete"
But if the casters have to concentrate on giving buffs (because there aren't enough magic items that give them permanently) then many spell slots are taken up to do that, and the fireballs and lightening bolts are less plentiful.
if those are less plentiful, the adventuring day doesnt stop because the wizard is out of boom booms, the wizard learns to conserve, then all of the sudden that fighter isnt so useless anymore, he's not so trivial at 13th level anymore.
the game comes back into balance and is still enjoyable at higher levels.
yes yes, i hear the grumbling about CR levels and monsters and their saves and AC etc etc...
there is more than one way to defeat a monster than standing toe to toe with it, and the nice thing about a wizard is the variable spells he can cast.
just because you see a monster today doesnt mean that you can defeat him today.
You might have to comeback with different spells prepared and running down the hallways with your arms flailing in the air may be the best course of action.
I don't mean to tell people how to play -- my biggest issue is that I don't see a way to make outlawing magical items work.I cannot speak for a total removal - (barring campaign flavour, magic items are fun!) but one hing I'm sure of when there are few around: encounters are designed to be slightly (generally) under CR, and use more weaker monsters because they have smaller numbers.
The only problem I see with that argument is that PCs still progress. Unless you also progress the low level monsters, but eventually people are going to get tired of fighting Goblins.
What I want to know is how are these governments going to stop them?
[Note - the following is mostly a bit-o-banter about our current campaign world and a nod towards how we deal with magic/magic is regarded.]
With magic and.. hyper-vigilance!
They have the monopoly on magic - and use magic to keep things that way.
Also why would they want to?
To ensure they are the dominate power!
Why does anyone try to hold onto power?
..and campaign specific --- for our lot, the world's already suffered the 'logical' extension of 'letting casters run rampant/magical item saturation'.
We don't actually stop people from buying guns..
We do!
How would a backwater duchy with limited resources that has trouble with its own borders handle such a complex task as restricting magical items?
..ah there we have it -- I'm sure their are some imaginative ways for such a duchy at least attempt to try and do what it seemingly wishes to do but aye, in a typical campaign world where items are common place, such a duchy is going to have a hard time.
With our lot, we have the advantage of a well coordinate, brutally efficient ruling body who has the monopoly on magic and magical items and wishes to keep things that way.
Of course, it's not a perfecting system and things do get made by some 'non-sanctioned' casters -- but it occurs much less frequently than a 'typical' magic-saturated campaign setting.
Especially since most mages aren't going to be receptive to helping with that (since it impacts their livelihood)?
With our lot (oh yes, here we go again!) the largest repository of magical knowledge is the mage's guild - which is essentially the dominant power (it functions as the government and main divine institution) wishing to maintain it's monopoly..
..and what's more, they're not really 'that bad' as long as you're not an unsanctioned caster -- they actively support and encourage would-be wizards to join them and enjoy the benefits of a state-sponsored education in the magical arts.
Magic is an expensive calling and many find it a very appealing offer.
Those that don't are forced to practice in secret - away from the eyes of loved ones/other folk (Is your neighbour practicing magic? BE AWARE) on pain of getting ratted out and promptly executed.
...of course, Sorcerers are (typically) less dependant on established magical institutions and are therefore more likely to avoid joining such an institution -- which naturally annoys the mages guild and ultimately leads to many a sorcerer-hunt/'witch hunt' type scenario.
etc etc etc gotta run shops!
I don't mean to tell people how to play -- my biggest issue is that I don't see a way to make outlawing magical items work.I cannot speak for a total removal - (barring campaign flavour, magic items are fun!) but one hing I'm sure of when there are few around: encounters are designed to be slightly (generally) under CR, and use more weaker monsters because they have smaller numbers.
Not quite what I meant -- I can understand a low magic item game (like the one I mentioned above where only craft potion and scroll are available) -- I mean I don't understand how a country could successfully outlaw and keep out magical items.
I mean I don't understand how a country could successfully outlaw and keep out magical items.
See above!
[Note - the following is mostly a bit-o-banter about our current campaign world and a nod towards how we deal with magic/magic is regarded.]** spoiler omitted **...
A magocracy? I could see that working possibly.
A magocracy? I could see that working possibly.
[Note - the following is mostly a bit-o-banter about our current campaign world and a nod towards how we deal with magic/magic is regarded.]** spoiler omitted **...
It's actually the only believable method - control all magic with an iron fist.
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Not quite what I meant -- I can understand a low magic item game (like the one I mentioned above where only craft potion and scroll are available) -- I mean I don't understand how a country could successfully outlaw and keep out magical items.I don't mean to tell people how to play -- my biggest issue is that I don't see a way to make outlawing magical items work.I cannot speak for a total removal - (barring campaign flavour, magic items are fun!) but one hing I'm sure of when there are few around: encounters are designed to be slightly (generally) under CR, and use more weaker monsters because they have smaller numbers.
Again, think of magic like it's guns. Usually if something like that is outlawed, the only people who will have access will be the government and criminals. Governments outlaw all kinds of things they use themselves. It's illegal for you and I to have a nuclear tipped cruise missile, but the Navy has them. I think that's what's tripping you up. Of course, you'd have to have some sort of a Midnight style magic inquisition (hmmm, I can't think of a base class that would be good for that... ;) ), and the commoners would be at the mercy of both the government and the criminals, but it's doable and can still be stable, it would be a scary, oppressive place.
Or, again, you get Mexico, and the country is three bad days away from anarchy.
There's no way for it to work if the government itself doesn't have magic, though.
Both of the above could exist side by side (or in the same setting) as more "liberal" magic countries.
Unless the wizard has more than one spell component pouch on their belt/easily accessible, it still removes at least one round of casting as they retrieve another pouch and possibly adds in an AoO as they do so.
The same applies to a cleric and their holy symbol.
I used to keep meticulous track of all components. I stopped doing so once the Eschew Material feat became available and have taken it for every caster since.
I don't mean to tell people how to play -- my biggest issue is that I don't see a way to make outlawing magical items work. If someone could show me a way to make it honestly work I would be okay with the idea for a campaign where it is that way but every part of my brain says, "I can think of so many ways around such laws already and I'm not even really started -- what's someone that really cares going to think of? And how are you going to prevent it from happening?"
Now if the GM was to say, "Look this will be a low magic item campaign and no one may take magic item creation feats beyond craft potion, and scribe scroll."
I would play such a campaign but I just don't see a way to leave magical items in and outlawing them (effectively) at the same time.
well i dont think anyone was advocating an outlaw magic item world, i was just theorizing on how interesting or different it maybe.
I read a scifi book about something similar years back. there was a dark side of the planet and a light side, on the dark side magic rules on the light side science.
it wasnt so much how magic was "outlawed" by governments per se, but that the "laws of magic" were nullified by light.
Being a DM means you can make anything happen you want.
So in theory its not much different than "dead magic areas" (what is the cell tower down??)
even on the dead magic side of the planet certain uber powerful spell types pulled off secret magics.
take a game like shadowrun or cyberpunk where MOST of the characters features/abilities are illegal. Do people still use spells and inllegal hardware sure that's the point!
The point isnt really to prevent the magic/abilites but to try and use them clandestinely!
I imagine such a DnD world would evolve the same way, but you still wouldnt see LG casters much, if at all.
Again, think of magic like it's guns. Usually if something like that is outlawed, the only people who will have access will be the government and criminals. Governments outlaw all kinds of things they use themselves. It's illegal for you and I to have a nuclear tipped cruise missile, but the Navy has them. I think that's what's tripping you up.
See I don't see "guns" and "nuclear tipped cruise missiles" as being on the same level though. I feel equating magic to guns works for the most part -- but then again we got to keep the analogy going instead of running off in a random direct (nuclear tipped cruise missiles). If magic is like guns then most of the effects are again like gun effects -- meaning survivable (contrary to Hollywood most gun shot victims survive), and even more easily so when healing magics are considered too (as opposed in the real world where we don't have "healing guns").
Magic would be the only real way to limit magical items other than not allowing item crafting feats into the campaign world for the most part (the other feasible means of limiting magical items).
I would suggest perhaps it would be more likely that sections of magic are more outlawed than others -- much like you can own a handgun/rifle/shotgun or antique but have more paper work to do to own a machine gun or to be allowed to conceal carry.
I could see several types of magic being considered "civilian grade" such as healing magics, most divination, most abjuration and parts of transmutation and conjuration while others are considered "restricted" but still obtainable by civilian (sleep, fear, bestow curse, blindness/deafness and ghoul's touch would be great examples of "defensive magics" that could be so restricted) and other spells being considered military grade and generally unavailable to the general public (except through stringent licensing).
But it would be a very tight campaign to organize and run -- most likely a place to be visited during a campaign or to have a much different type of game than the fairly standard "on the edge of civilization" that most are use to.
Unless the wizard has more than one spell component pouch on their belt/easily accessible, it still removes at least one round of casting as they retrieve another pouch and possibly adds in an AoO as they do so.
The same applies to a cleric and their holy symbol.
I used to keep meticulous track of all components. I stopped doing so once the Eschew Material feat became available and have taken it for every caster since.
Yes exactly, but it still sucks up a feat, that you could other wise spend o meta magic, item creation or whatever.
in that way it balances even if just a little, considering spell casters dont get access to alot of feats.
Sometimes I miss the old resource management game in regards to spell components. However it's just not a particularly good system in terms of ease of play. Most gamers don't want to have to account for every little bit of consumables and roleplaying finding or haggling for components is of pretty limited appeal to the majority of gamers.
However I'm not a big fan of the bottomless spell pouch either. First it doesn't make sense that you'd put all these different components into the same pouch as they would possibly contaminate each other ;) or at least become a jumbled mess that takes minutes to find what you want.
You can solve this issue (assuming that you even care to) by saying that the material components are always some sort of magical effluvium that isn't spell specific, i.e. you gather the components but the actual physical nature of them isn't important you are merely reducing them to some sort of composite dust.
Another solution and this is one that I've typically gone with is to replace the pouch with a belt/girdle/sash/etc that contains a whole host of little pockets and pouches that contain the components.
That way they don't get mixed up :D
Basically the wizard/sorceress is constantly gathering bits of things to renew his/her belt of material components during their travels or any downtime. That's why it never goes empty. Switching it to a belt actually makes it more workable as a potential item to lose as everyone and his brother will keep a ton of extra spell pouches but fewer people will strap on a whole host of girdles (recent fantasy art not withstanding).
Please explain in detail how forcing casters to keep up with ridiculous number of non-valued spell components to cast spells would be a move towards fixing the 15 minute adventuring day as opposed to making it all the more obvious
It's simple. The 15 minute day occurs when there's no penalty for going nova in the first couple of encounters and then resting to recover spells. The spell-caster simply trades time for spellcasting slots.
Add in more detailed accounting of material components and the caster is faced with other choices. Many items can be found in lots of environments - the ubiquitous bat guano, spider web, or pinch of sand. Others, perhaps not. They may require moving to another location or buying a new set of components. That's now trading not just time, but also location and small amounts of money. The cost of going nova is now higher which may encourage them to be a bit more parsimonious with their spells.
Which doesn't solve the 15 minute adventuring day. That wasn't caused by "going nova" - that's only a method to get there - it's caused by depleting your stock of available "do anything"ness. Which can just as easily, if not more so, be achieved by making people count how much bat crap they have in a bag.
However I'm not a big fan of the bottomless spell pouch either. First it doesn't make sense that you'd put all these different components into the same pouch as they would possibly contaminate each other ;) or at least become a jumbled mess that takes minutes to find what you want.
Normally, I would assume that each component is in a little parchment envelope or something similar to keep them from cross contaminating.
What I prefer, as opposed to the bottomless pouch, is work the cost of a pouch into a character's weekly upkeep. Any pouch is pretty much going to run out of components in a week, so if you're going to be out of town for more than one week, buy up multiple pouch-loads.
I will agree, however, that it's not nearly as strict as per-spell accounting of components. That's a far greater throttle on spellcaster power.
However I'm not a big fan of the bottomless spell pouch either. First it doesn't make sense that you'd put all these different components into the same pouch as they would possibly contaminate each other ;) or at least become a jumbled mess that takes minutes to find what you want.
Normally, I would assume that each component is in a little parchment envelope or something similar to keep them from cross contaminating.
What I prefer, as opposed to the bottomless pouch, is work the cost of a pouch into a character's weekly upkeep. Any pouch is pretty much going to run out of components in a week, so if you're going to be out of town for more than one week, buy up multiple pouch-loads.
I will agree, however, that it's not nearly as strict as per-spell accounting of components. That's a far greater throttle on spellcaster power.
again scratching off bat guanos like an archer scratches off arrows isnt the essence. The essence is that eventually, you DO run out of bat guano AND because it (or some other component) is rarer than arrows, you either A) have to take some adventuring time to go get it. or B) have to do without it until you find/acquire it, which means that spell isnt available to you until you do.
however, saying something as simple as "you have acquired enough material components to cast 12 fireballs, 6 lightening bolts and 5 sleeps isnt at all unfair, as the archer has to keep track of his arrows.
I do not see it being different at all. (or any more paper work or tediousness)
Yes, but I keep it limited.
Generally, in a big enough city, you'll have an arcane school who can make items upon request, but they rarely have "pre-made wands for sale!" unless those wands/whatever else are being used for training in the school. In which case, you've got to pay for inconveniencing them. The same goes for scrolls, except most mages keep them for personal use, meaning that buying the scroll would directly inconvenience the mage.
A few potions are usually readily available at any given place of worship (and are rewarded upon "donation"), and the clerics will generally keep scrolls of remove "_____" and restoration on-hand for times when they might be needed. But generally, removing a curse or paralysis results in a favor as payment, rather than gold.
As far as the "magic shop" goes, I don't run that idea any more. There might be a merchant in town who stocks a few magic items here or there, but never a magic shop (and generally these items are gone within the first couple days of their initial announcement. I like to keep magic items popular, but generally rare). It seems to me that anyone who ran a store like that was just BEGGING to be robbed. And they have been in earlier games I've run/played in. Let's face it, when you're a level 15 warlock with some serious connections in the assassin's guild, you don't really need to sneak in at night. Armed robbery with an eldritch blast and the ability to fly away at a moment's notice will do the job.
I also view "magic item sales" to be a generally not-too-desirable field. I mean...yeah, they're popular, and rare. But they're also expensive, and a commoner who makes 1 gp every day can't exactly afford to splurge on a potion (much less a wondrous item) whenever he wants. Sure, you might get the occasional rich guy or adventurer passing through, but they're a small portion of the population, and there's no internet to sell globally. As an adventurer, it's much more profitable to gather a group and raid a dragon's den than try to pawn off that wand of invisibility you just made.
Master smiths will sometimes keep magic weapons/armor in their shops, but never out for the standard consumer to see. Usually, it's more of a "come into the back and see what I've got in stock" situation. Maybe a not-so-master smith will carry them, too, if he's got some connections in the Arcane School or has a buddy who just so happens to possess the right feat.
Yeah, generally I run with the "items can be commissioned, but rarely bought out of the package" position. It works for me and my players. We go to a town, commission an item, and adventure for a few days/weeks until it's done.
Most of the time, though, I grant items as treasure. The Oni had a +2 greatsword or the king grants you all a wondrous item for saving his son. That sort of thing.
try BALANCE.thats WHY the wizard is more powerful, because you stole some of his balance by hand waving components.
It's not just components, obviously, but a whole suite of relatively minor individual changes that contribute to spellcasters being so powerful - at least on paper.
The reason I add the caveat on paper is because I think many of the changes in 3e designed to hand waves specific fiddly elements of the spellcaster rules (cyclical initiatives trumping individual initiative, standard action casting times instead of variations, spell component pouches) reflect how many people had come to play the game anyway. Large numbers of groups had already done away with many of those features as too cumbersome to bother with and the designers of the next iteration agreed. Changing the rules may have changed the balance of the characters on paper, but the balance in applied rules at the gaming table had already changed around these elements.
Yes.
It also depends on the town with me. For instance if they're in a small villiage I rule that they do manage to buy minor items and even then it's restricted however if it's a large major town or city they'll be able to buy just about anything apart from Artifacts (of course) and intelligent items. Anything else though they can provided they have the cash.
however, saying something as simple as "you have acquired enough material components to cast 12 fireballs, 6 lightening bolts and 5 sleeps isnt at all unfair, as the archer has to keep track of his arrows.
Is spending one gold for 20 more arrows really that difficult. Why not have a custom quiver made that can hold 40 arrows. Why not get a handy haversack and put a lot of quivers in it. Why can't a caster just buy a rediculous amount of "stuff".
If you are not counting material components how are you tracking it? I track arrows in my games, but it is only one thing I have to track, as opposed to watching every component for every spell. If a DM told me to do that I just buy enough to ensure I can cast a few hundred spells, and later I use the handy haversack to make sure I never run out. He would have to house rule in some expiration date.That bolded area is confusing me.