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Just like it does not take much to write off anything one doesn't want to hear as Internet hyperbole.The fact is WotC is changing course quarterly, and is clearly unable to settle on a coherent direction. There is quite a bit of evidence that D&D, at least in it's current form, is on life-support. Does that mean D&D is going away? Nope. Companies and brands have been turned around before. But if you think everything is proceeding as planned, then you simply aren't paying attention.
I know things are not going as planned at Wotc. I knew things were in trouble at least a little when they cancelled some titles this year. So things are not that great imo at Wotc. Nor that bad either. Unless Wotc announces that they are dropping D&D the op imo kind of overreacted. Slowing down production of D&D products without any focus is a bad thing. Letting the license go imo is even worse as whomever picks it up will guarantee their being a 5E. No one is going to invest in the IP and not release a new edition.
As for Paizo not releasing a new edition of PF early. The cynic in me says they will once proifts drop significatly. No company not even Paizo is going to take a loss because they promised not to release a new edtion early.
I know things are not going as planned at Wotc. I knew things were in trouble at least a little when they cancelled some titles this year. So things are not that great imo at Wotc. Nor that bad either. Unless Wotc announces that they are dropping D&D the op imo kind of overreacted.
It seems to me that WotC has no real concept how to handle D&D 4e. This post by Ryan Dancey on Enworld seems to be an accurate description of the mess over at WotC:
As for Paizo not releasing a new edition of PF early. The cynic in me says they will once proifts drop significatly. No company not even Paizo is going to take a loss because they promised not to release a new edtion early.
The difference between Paizo and WOTC is that for WOTC, the rulebooks and generic crunch is their bread and butter; the individual settings and adventures are far less important to them, whereas Paizo is focused mainly the AP's, with the rulebooks being secondary, at least at this time. Unless that changes, I don't see them needing to put out a new edition early; most people like the rules as they are overall, and I just don't see a big enough push for new ones right now to make Paizo move their schedule up.
I believe in the short term both D&D and Pathfinder will suffer from content bloat. Basically, D&D mass producing crunch, and Pathfinder support via third parties.
Where Hasbro may just release an updated ruleset (5E), I believe Pathfinder will offer an alternative game (ruleset), if they stay true to not updating Pathfinder for a while.
The black horse with OGL, is whether Hasbro will ever attempt to sue companies over violating the license. I am not a lawyer, so maybe that is not even possible.
My biggest problem with 4E is changing the way DDI works with the offline character generator. That change alone has sent shock waves via my friends and people they know, in regards to supporting the game in the future.
I do agree for long term stability, WOTC has to get back into the adventure writing business, and spend less time on the crunch.
The black horse with OGL, is whether Hasbro will ever attempt to sue companies over violating the license. I am not a lawyer, so maybe that is not even possible.
Unbelievable how often this comes up. They can't sue anyone for using the OGL. Ever.
I do agree for long term stability, WOTC has to get back into the adventure writing business, and spend less time on the crunch.
Looks, kind of, like that is what is going on - though there is a clear slow down in content release even so.
What we seem to be getting here is multiple board games, multiple expansions for Gamma World. A single crunch book - Hero's of Shadow, a number of accessories (tile sets - those game bonus in booster pack cards). All slated for the next three or four months.
After that we see some more products that may indicate a trend in the direction WotC is headed.
First off we get The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond. A book that appears to be all about the Shadowfell and focuses on a specific city in the Shadowfell. Very much a fluff campaign setting type book so far as I can tell.
Then we get Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale. An unusual product. Not exactly Monster Manual IV but certianly not so far from it either. It appears to be campaign setting through the prism of the monsters and evil organizations that inhabit the region.
Next up is Neverwinter Campaign Setting. If this is their big world release for the year I'm not impressed. Never was interested in doing table top RPGing in a place developed for a CRPG but I suppose some are.
Finally (well up until the September - catalog does not expand beyond that) we get Madness at Gardmore Abbey. No details except that it will be a boxed set adventure meant to take players from 6th-10th level.
It appears that for the moment WotC is focusing on board games and Gamma World while the D&D line does in fact move away from crunch and into campaign setting type books and adventures. Of course this represents only their publishing wing in terms of developments. As I commented before I think the DDI is the real centre of gravity in the D&D brand and we don't get a product catalog for developments online.
All of that said this may represent a more reasonable schedule and product line for their customer base. WotC does not have Paizo's super dedicated fan base. I like 4E - a lot. But I only buy stuff that actually interests me and not nearly everything they create. Here they're doing a pretty good job of figuring out the kinds of things that I might actually put money down for - well except for that Never Winter Nights book - yuck. In other words curl up on the couch books that don't line up with crunch hunting...which is most effective on the DDI in any case.
Even their monster book is kind of like that. All those monsters will appear in the DDI but backgrounds for developed villains and that sort of thing does not.
The amount of material is a little below what I'd probably spend in a year but reasonably close...and I have access to the hobby distribution network so I might be a little on the high side of average (plus I need to pay for all those Paizo APs). If I'm short on something to read (never happen) I'll fill out my collection with a couple of books I missed from previous years.
I think it's actually a neverwinter campaign guide - a city sourcebook for the forgotten realms rather than a new setting. It looks pretty good (from the two paragraph blurb on their catalog).
I don't know what neverwinter nights is - is the similarity of name a coincidence?
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It seems to me that WotC has no real concept how to handle D&D 4e. This post by Ryan Dancey on Enworld seems to be an accurate description of the mess over at WotC:
I stopped listening to anything Ryan Dancey had to say a long time ago. Is this not tghe same person who predicated that rpgs were doomed. Beyond that yes it does seem that for now at least they have no clue what is going on.
The difference between Paizo and WOTC is that for WOTC, the rulebooks and generic crunch is their bread and butter; the individual settings and adventures are far less important to them, whereas Paizo is focused mainly the AP's, with the rulebooks being secondary, at least at this time. Unless that changes, I don't see them needing to put out a new edition early; most people like the rules as they are overall, and I just don't see a big enough push for new ones right now to make Paizo move their schedule up.
Your right yet the cynic in me refuses to believe that. Only time will tell.
It is funny that WotC drives their DnD brand with their author's novels. This is the core of their market attractor to new people and to maintain customers that move and lose touch with their friends.
DnD, MtG, and other title lines of books.
Yet, they only did the Dragonlance initial line tied to the modules that they were releasing (oh, wait there was that small line of adventure novels that were loosely based on a few of their adventures).
They have plenty of innovative people in their writing sections but they don't seem to tap that source well to produce product. The result is far more home brew as people 'fill the gap'.
It seems to me that WotC has no real concept how to handle D&D 4e. This post by Ryan Dancey on Enworld seems to be an accurate description of the mess over at WotC:
Of course Dancey has been predicting the Doom of D&D since 2003.
As to the OPs original statement - I doubt paizo will ever adopt 4E as their 'house' rpg. They are way to invested in Pathfinder at this point. You will, eventually, see Pathfinder 2nd edition though. That is almost 100% certain. Doesn't mean it is a bad thing - no RPG remains completely unchanged over the long haul.
I agree, if we use 4E as an example, that WOTC may never get back into writing quality adventures. Their biggest challenge to close that gap, is to have contests like RPG superstar, or revamp RPGA events, to keep the talent pool fresh. You just don't see that type of thing coming from Hasbro.
As to not being able to sue in regards to the OGL, then it must be the deal of the century for gaming, which makes more sense when I read commentary on how hard a sell it was. But there may be room in regards to releasing content immediately as OGL (free for use), versus selling it first, then going to the license. I will have to do some more reading, as I am coming from a point of total ignorance.
I doubt Pathfinder would adopt another system, but as stated create a new one. But they will suffer the pains of all the RPG developers that proceeded before them. They also have to carry the torch for 3.5.
I also doubt 4E will find the direction it needs, or continue the things it was successful at (DDI being one of them).
I keep hearing this. I keep not seeing citations. I followed Mr. Dancey's blog on and off, and don't recall it there. Perhaps you've got links?
Of course Dancey has been predicting the Doom of D&D since 2003.
When Dancey went into CCP (after destroying the GAMA due to his own corruption and ineptness) he announced that White Wolf wouldn't be focusing anymore on RPGs, and that the tabletop game industry is a legacy business.
Of course he also claimed that Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3e was a "clever derivative of D&D 3rd Edition," despite being based on a game that came out before D20 did.
The guy has no clout whatsoever in the gaming industry.
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I keep hearing this. I keep not seeing citations. I followed Mr. Dancey's blog on and off, and don't recall it there. Perhaps you've got links?
Of course Dancey has been predicting the Doom of D&D since 2003.
When Dancey went into CCP (after destroying the GAMA due to his own corruption and ineptness) he announced that White Wolf wouldn't be focusing anymore on RPGs, and that the tabletop game industry is a legacy business.
Of course he also claimed that Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3e was a "clever derivative of D&D 3rd Edition," despite being based on a game that came out before D20 did.
The guy has no clout whatsoever in the gaming industry.
I think you forgot to write that he killed your puppy.
I think you forgot to write that he killed your puppy.I keep hearing this. I keep not seeing citations. I followed Mr. Dancey's blog on and off, and don't recall it there. Perhaps you've got links?
Of course Dancey has been predicting the Doom of D&D since 2003.
When Dancey went into CCP (after destroying the GAMA due to his own corruption and ineptness) he announced that White Wolf wouldn't be focusing anymore on RPGs, and that the tabletop game industry is a legacy business.
Of course he also claimed that Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3e was a "clever derivative of D&D 3rd Edition," despite being based on a game that came out before D20 did.
The guy has no clout whatsoever in the gaming industry.
Look, I'm just posting actual things that happen.
If people want to continue loving the guy and listening to his every word, that's fine.
But he has a bad history with the industry, and he's certainly put his own trustworthiness into question far too many times for me to go along with it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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When Dancey went into CCP (after destroying the GAMA due to his own corruption and ineptness) he announced that White Wolf wouldn't be focusing anymore on RPGs, and that the tabletop game industry is a legacy business.
Of course he also claimed that Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3e was a "clever derivative of D&D 3rd Edition," despite being based on a game that came out before D20 did.
The guy has no clout whatsoever in the gaming industry.
Links so I can read the words for myself, instead of by hearsay? I'm not interested in hearing your list of wrongs repeated, I'm interested in what the man actually said.
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Of course he also claimed that Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3e was a "clever derivative of D&D 3rd Edition," despite being based on a game that came out before D20 did.
Actually, the infamous review was for Warhammer Fanstasy 2e, and spent much of its time explaining how much 2e owed to the d20 concepts and rules.
I agree, if we use 4E as an example, that WOTC may never get back into writing quality adventures. Their biggest challenge to close that gap, is to have contests like RPG superstar, or revamp RPGA events, to keep the talent pool fresh. You just don't see that type of thing coming from Hasbro.
Something to consider here is that they are sitting on what has historically been one of the very best resources for adventure writing in the whole of table top RPGs - Dungeon Magazine.
Now we all know of the Golden Age of that magazine under Paizo but that was not just a one off fluke. Dungeon experienced several Golden Ages. Certainly the quality of the product that was coming out under Barbara Young and later when her Assistant, Wolfgang Baur, took over the quality remained very high.
The model was always to take submissions - lots of submissions - from the fan base itself and just keep the very best of these, then develop them. This, not only gets one great adventures, but it allows the staff and editors to slowly build up a stable of extremely high quality writers. The key is excellent editorial staff and enough manpower to process all the adventure submissions and, better yet, to be able to do at least a small amount of work with the submission ideas that have merit but don't quite make the cut - be able to tell good potential writers what it is about their submission that needs improvement. This requires a reasonably good sized staff but might pay off if it helps to keep those subscriptions for the DDI.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Links so I can read the words for myself, instead of by hearsay? I'm not interested in hearing your list of wrongs repeated, I'm interested in what the man actually said.When Dancey went into CCP (after destroying the GAMA due to his own corruption and ineptness) he announced that White Wolf wouldn't be focusing anymore on RPGs, and that the tabletop game industry is a legacy business.
Of course he also claimed that Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3e was a "clever derivative of D&D 3rd Edition," despite being based on a game that came out before D20 did.
The guy has no clout whatsoever in the gaming industry.
Yeah, this. You're some dude on the internet. Ryan's some dude on the internet who just happened to have given us the OGL and 3e. You'll have to pardon us if he still has more clout in our minds than you, even if you have a bunch of unsubstantiated stories that seem to be driven by some type of deep seated personal animosity. We're all sorry he killed your puppy, but, as they say on the internets, pics, or it didn't happen.
Dancey describes White Wolf as an imprint and tabletop gaming as a legacy business
Dancey's "review" of WHFRP 3e is gone from the internet, but A thread about it still remains.
""The question each publisher has to ask themselves when they create an RPG in the post-OGL/D20 world is this: Is my game so much better than an OGL/D20 option that I want to force my customers & players to pay a tax to play that game, and will those people perceive the value I'm offering and voluntarily submit to that taxation? " - Ryan Dancey
Any other links you want? :)
Another take and summary of everything
Additionally, Dancey is the chief marketing officer for what was for a long time the #2 RPG Company, which is also an MMO company. He doesn't just have a horse in this race, he's bet all his money on it.
Dancey talks about the death of tabletop gaming
"I think the root cause is the end of classic D&D style tabletop roleplaying as a viable business in its current format. There are two paths forward - abandon it and leave RPG play to the internet and non-commercial interests, or hybridize it and find a way to bring technology to the tabletop and make it new for the future. The longer WotC trys to stay with a dead format the more stress they will put the business through." - Ryan Dancey
Strange how fast he changed his tune as soon as someone else challenged WotC.
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White Wolfs death as a publishing company wasn't a result of Dancey's actions. WW sold itself over to CCP, and killing off the RPGs was part of the deal. I believe you should attribute that decision to shareholders of WW. I recall that around the merger (2006?) both parties said that the idea is to produce MMOs based around WW IP, not RPGs based around CCP IP. I guess the call was made at that point.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wow. That's almost as persuasive as Fox News/MSNBC's criticisms of Obama/Bush. I see some facts strung together to tell a particular story. I don't see that story as being the only one that could be derived from those facts, even assuming the facts are correct.
Again, you'll have to forgive me for not taking the same deep seated personal animosity story from additional random dudes on the internet as evidence of the truth of such story. Nor will I opt to take an out of context comment regarding White Wolf's tabletop business as a set in stone iron clad prediction of the future of rpgs. Particularly when Dancey's thoughts and reasoning regarding the future of rpgs have been provided by the man himelf, are worth reading and understanding, and can be rationally debated without assuming he's an evil moron.
Wow. That's almost as persuasive as Fox News/MSNBC's criticisms of Obama/Bush. I see some facts strung together to tell a particular story. I don't see that story as being the only one that could be derived from those facts, even assuming the facts are correct.
Again, you'll have to forgive me for not taking the same deep seated personal animosity story from additional random dudes on the internet as evidence of the truth of such story. Nor will I opt to take an out of context comment regarding White Wolf's tabletop business as a set in stone iron clad prediction of the future of rpgs. Particularly when Dancey's thoughts and reasoning regarding the future of rpgs have been provided by the man himelf, are worth reading and understanding, and can be rationally debated without assuming he's an evil moron.
I'm not saying he's an "evil moron," nor am I simply linking to what a few others have said. I've linked to his literal statements.
Fact: Ryan Dancey resigned from his position as GAMA treasure after it was revealed he had penetrated and spied on confidential emails and utilized them to secure his position and the position of many of his allies inside the organization.
Fact: Ryan Dancey is quoted as saying both that the tabletop industry is a legacy business and that D&D style tabletop roleplaying in not a viable business
Fact: His review of Warhammer 3e is reviled and laughed at throughout most of the gaming fandom,at least over the internet ( as can also be seen here ) due to his claims that the game copied from D20.
I have literally done what you asked - I linked to proof of those facts. If you don't believe the man himself repeating the same things, I'm not sure what can be done at this point. You've made your opinion and you will not be moved from it.
If you have an issue with my links then say what they are. Show what parts of my statement you find unconvincing. Say which link you dislike or why you disagree with them. Don't just snort, make a terrible political analogy, and saunter away.
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Cirno, we know you. We do know that sometimes you are right, sometimes you are not, but every time you are The Biggest Smartass in The Room. Nothing wrong with that, but your talent for using snark and strong words to sway people to what you write doesn't work on everybody. Especially on people who are used to do the very same for living, such as lawyers like Sebastian and me.
What counts about Dancey are FACTS about things he has done. FACTS, not OPINIONS, remember the distinction? The former count, the latter are utterly meaningless. So, whatever Dancey says and thinks is being now thrown into rubbish container.
So, we have co-authorship of OGL (without which we wouldn't be having this conversation) vs. some shady goings in a shady (putting it mildly) organization that GAMA is.
Dunno about you, but the former affects me, and the latter I don't give a flip about. Same about Warhammer reviews.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Hmmm...if only one could debate the characterization of those "facts." Oh well, I guess it's impossible.
What's the difference between "Ryan Dancey did some bad things and should be ignored" and "Let's assume he's an evil moron?"
I have literally done what you asked - I linked to proof of those facts. If you don't believe the man himself repeating the same things, I'm not sure what can be done at this point. You've made your opinion and you will not be moved from it.
Sweet, sweet irony.
Edit: Gorbacz said it better than me. We've got some insider personal drama about GAMA (that I could give two s&!@s about), a misleading soundbite version of some sophisticated analysis and insight that has been previously provided (and which serves to put the statement in context), and, at worst, some arrogance in a review or Warhammer.
And for these sins, we should disregard everything he says going forward.
I have no idea why I would want something deeper to go off of...
Still waiting for the rebuttal to what I've put out.
Seriously, you asked me to link things. I did. I linked to two industry statements regarding his role at GAMA. I linked to his statements regarding the tabletop industry twice.
What else do you want? I'm being honest - you demanded links to those two things. I provided them.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Still waiting for the rebuttal to what I've put out.
Still waiting for something worth rebutting.
Seriously, you asked me to link things. I did. I linked to two industry statements regarding his role at GAMA. I linked to his statements regarding the tabletop industry twice.
Yeah, and if I cared that much, I could link to his rebuttal of the GAMA drama and a more detailed and nuanced version of his thoughts on the tabletop rpg industry. What's your point?
Edit: I also don't think that linking to a quote, and then linking to someone else quoting the same quote, counts as "linking to it twice."
What else do you want? I'm being honest - you demanded links to those two things. I provided them.
I want you to be disabused of the notion that this crap should mean anything to anyone but you. As far as I can tell, most of it stems from the GAMA personal drama that I wasn't involved in and don't care about.
Since 4th edition is non-OGL and very much owned by WoTC that would likely never happen.Well, yes, though I think he meant more so that Paizo might alter the rules to be more 4e-ish.
This is already happening, frankly. But I'm all for it.
Still waiting for something worth rebutting.
Start with my links, then.
Yeah, and if I cared that much, I could link to his rebuttal of the GAMA drama and a more detailed and nuanced version of his thoughts on the tabletop rpg industry. What's your point?
Then link it. You told me to link my sources, and I did.
Edit: I also don't think that linking to a quote, and then linking to someone else quoting the same quote, counts as "linking to it twice."
No, but linking to his statement that the tabletop industry is a legacy business, and then to a different statement that the classic tabletop industry is not a viable business, does.
I want you to be disabused of the notion that this crap should mean anything to anyone but you. As far as I can tell, most of it stems from the GAMA personal drama that I wasn't involved in and don't care about.
The question is this: Is Ryan Dancey worth listening to regarding his thoughts on 4e.
My answer is no.
Why? Well, we have his shady and illegal dealings in the GAMA. We have his own statements from 2009 wherein he twice reaffirmed that the tabletop industry as a whole was going to die. We have the understanding that he is a high up member in CCP that benefits strongly from D&D collapsing. We also have his Warhammer 3e review in which he states that games that aren't D20 are worthless.
In short, Dancey is not impartial in the slightest. He has a large personal and professional desire to see 4e sink. He has shown that he can and will act in shady and illegal manners and will put himself above the industry. His own words illustrate his spite for the business at large.
Look, don't tell someone to link to their proof, and then tell them that linking to their proof doesn't count.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Once you link to proof, I'll respond.
In the meantime, the argument still boils down to you having a personal grudge which should lead me to disregard Ryan Dancey's views. I don't hold that grudge, I don't attribute the motivations to him that you do, and everything I've read from him has been intelligent and insightful. Even if the conclusions are wrong, the process by which he reaches them is informed to a far greater extent than yours. He's no more biased than any other player in the industry (hint: the 4e developers and WotC staff are biased for 4e success, and yet you've shot down people questioning them (or dismissing them, such as you do here) time and time again). I'm a big boy. I can read and draw my own conclusions from what Ryan's written, what's been written about him, and what I've seen in the real world. I find his analysis to be credible, even if you believe him to be an evil moron.
You have a grudge. You've assembled evidence to make it feel like it's legitimate. I get that.
I just don't give a f*$@.
My interpretation of the GAMA thing:
Dancey: Thanks for letting me join your board. I noticed that you've been talking about heading in X direction on topic Y.
GAMA: WTF? How you hack our mailing list?
Dancey: I hit the join button a while ago. I wanted to prepare myself for the position. That was supposed to be private?
GAMA: OMG you cheated!
Dancey: I just wanted to help, but whatever. I'm out of here.
Or to put it another way:
Guy on Internet: Did you see that Dancey hacked GAMA???
Everyone else: GAMA what? Who cares?
I will admit he's said some stupid things, particularly in his review of Warhammer 2e. You can't blame WW's destruction on anyone but WW and CCP. He may have been the mouthpiece for the company, but that decision was made before he was even involved. All CCP wanted was a Vampire MMO (coming soon) and could care less about printing books.
Dancey is a businessman, not a game designer. He's looking for ways to make money in the days of cheap PDFs and print on demand. There are more people playing MMOs right now than have ever played table-top RPGs. He may be wrong in his predictions sometimes, but that doesn't mean you should discount everything he's ever done or said.
Once you link to proof, I'll respond.
Ignoring the rest of your post which is just insulting me, I will ask this then:
What proof are you requesting?
I was asked to link to proof that Dancey was involved with a debacle with GAMA, and I believe I have done so. What would you like regarding this topic?
I was further asked to link to his statements regarding the gaming industry, which I have also done.
Lastly, I was asked about how Warhammer 3e review. I admittingly cannot link too that. What I can and did do, however, was link to both rpg.net and ENWorld's discussion about the review, with the latter involving Dancey himself posting in the thread about.
I'm not trying to be snarky here. What do you want me to "prove?"
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Prove that you've got something other than a bunch of circumstantial evidence, subject to multiple interpretations, which supports your assertions about his character. Then prove that his character flaws trump (as opposed to color) the reasoning he provides for his conclusions.
It's been said better by Gorbacz and deinol: no one cares about this GAMA drama other than the players involved, there's bias in any industry participant, and for predictions that have been wrong, there have been predictions that have been right.
Given time, maybe the 4e prediction will prove to be true. Maybe it won't. But I can't dismiss it out of hand because Ryan Dancey once took some actions that you interpret to be bad acts. That's just not the way critical thinking works.
I'm done. The weakness of your position is obvious (well, obvious to all except those who have their own stake in the GAMA drama or want to rebut any claim that 4e might not do so well). You've dismissed someone who knows (significantly) more about the business of the industry, how it's operated, and how to launch the most successful version of D&D of all time, than you do. If you really want to make this an argument about who has credibility, it's pretty easy:
Your credibility < Ryan Dancey's credibility.
It's that simple.
You know, I've been a gamer for ages and I've never had the slightest interest in joining GAMA. This, I think, is an excellent case in point. And from what I've seen, it boiled down to their mailing list being readable by everyone on the internet, including Dancey, and he pointed this hole out.
Dancey's comments about WW's tabletop stuff being a legacy product? I still see it in the bookstores, there are still people playing, it may not be quite as big as it was but it's still there. And legacies can have revivals, and people can also be wrong.
I've been wrong myself. When the OGL came out, I thought it was a horrible idea. I was wrong. My tea leaf reading was insufficient to foresee the rise of Paizo and Pathfinder. Of course, if my tea leaf reading were better I would have bought into WotC before the rise of MtG when I heard about it.
That D&D has unhappy customers right now is a statement of fact since all you need to do is hop over to their board and read the threads posted by all the unhappy fans begging Hasbro to sell the brand to someone who cares about it. How well D&D deals with that remains to be seen, but canceling books and miniatures and telling people that fortune cards are going to be required for certain games does not appear to be making anyone happier, at least who's posting on their boards.
Prove that you've got something other than a bunch of circumstantial evidence, subject to multiple interpretations, which supports your assertions about his character.
I haven't said anything about his character.
You keep trying to make it sound like I have this big horrible grudge against him. I don't.
My issue is that he's a non-statement in the industry as a whole.
Once again, I haven't been linking to "soundbites," I linked to the entire interview regarding CCP. I linked too his full statement made on RPGPundit's blog.
I was asked to link to the GAMA incident and to his statements on the industry. I did just that.
You are free to believe him! I can't stop you! Nor am I attempting to!
But I do not, and you seem to take grave offense at that. I have illustrated my reasons for not believing him. You don't buy it. That's fine! You can continue to believe him! And I will continue to not.
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Dancey resigns from the GAMA...
I neither know nor care what a GAMA is. Some relevance would be nice. 'Spying' on email is a bad thing, but do understand that it happens ALL THE TIME. That's why we understand it to be non-secure. So that in and of itself is 'bad', per se, but doesn't make him an idiot.
Dancey describes White Wolf as an imprint and tabletop gaming as a legacy business.
You've deliberately misquoted him, and that's not cool in the least. Here's the actual quote:
It's just an imprint... White Wolf used to have a fairly large staff. It doesn't anymore. It's focusing primarily on the World of Darkness RPG products. It's not doing some of the things it used to do; board games and other card games and things. The focus of the company [CCP] is on making MMOs and our legacy table top business is a legacy business.
A) "It's just an imprint" clearly, obviously means that it is a shadow of its former self.
B) "our legacy table top business" does not in any way, shape, or form mean "all table top games are legacy business", now does it?
FWIW you kind of need to apologize not only to me for making me actually look this crap up to rebut it, but to everyone here and to Dancey himself for that one. You simply lied about what he said here.
Your statement: "Tabletops are dead"
His statement: "CCP will phase out tabletops"
There is a world of difference there, sir.
""The question each publisher has to ask themselves when they create an RPG in the post-OGL/D20 world is this: Is my game so much better than an OGL/D20 option that I want to force my customers & players to pay a tax to play that game, and will those people perceive the value I'm offering and voluntarily submit to that taxation? "
This is a valid statement. Summed as, "if not better than OGL, why not simply use OGL", and I'd ask the same thing. There probably isn't any reason, assuming the OGL can be trusted, legally speaking, to reinvent the wheel. At least not without a compelling reason to do so. Disagree as you wish, but that's your opinion vs his, which speaks nothing towards the content of his writing.
Another take and summary of everything
So a guy employed by an MMO thinks that MMOs are the future... And?
Additionally, Dancey is the chief marketing officer for what was for a long time the #2 RPG Company, which is also an MMO company. He doesn't just have a horse in this race, he's bet all his money on it.
Yes, this is true. Bias is important to note, no doubt.
More on the GAMA debacle
This is the same thing as above. He read the emails of some club for which he ran for an office. Doesn't make him stupid.
Dancey talks about the death of tabletop gaming
This isn't a 'talk', but a link to a comments in a forum. The topic of this forum is the removal of pdf, which I actually can support. They just end up being pirated anyway, so why mess with them? Online-only content is an answer for this problem, as you can make people authenticate first, but WoTC has never, ever, EVER done e-anything right. Not once. So yes, they probably will die if they continue hoping to blend formats. They have this huge controlling interest that doesn't believe in that model.
Anyway, the topic is the model, not all tabletop everywhere. Indeed he says specifically:
Wizards is about to be forced into the D&D end-game which is something that many publishers have gone through but none ever with a game the scale and impact of D&D (TSR walked right up to this cliff but WotC saved them from going over the edge).
So again you're taking him out of context...
"I think the root cause is the end of classic D&D style tabletop roleplaying as a viable business in its current format. There are two paths forward - abandon it and leave RPG play to the internet and non-commercial interests, or hybridize it and find a way to bring technology to the tabletop and make it new for the future. The longer WotC trys to stay with a dead format the more stress they will put the business through." - Ryan Dancey
...which is utterly amazing because you're quoting specific parts of that context here.
You're a hater, sir, with seemingly few actual points towards Mr Dancey. You don't care for WW being absorbed by CCP and you'd like to see the current D&D model live on, but that's got nearly nothing to do with this guy and his opinions.
He's largely correct. Giving pdf's away is inviting a loss. No doubt whatsoever. The model will need to change, or the company will need to shrink, or some other thing will have to happen. But the days of finding torrents with every book ever published by Wizards will need to end at some point.
And genuinely, honestly, if those did stop, we'd probably see less splat.
Anyway, there's your rebuttal. Have a great day.
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Dancey's "review" of WHFRP 3e is gone from the internet, but A thread about it still remains.
Look at the date - 3e WHFRP didn't exist in 2005.
3rd Edition wasn't printed until 2009 when Fantasy Flight Games inherited the rights to print.
I'm not trying to pedantic, but if you're going to hate on something, it should at least be directed at the right source.
I've never heard of this Dancey guy, he makes a few valid points of the 'all over the place' nature of WOTC's 4e output in the Enworld post linked upthread, but anything else is blah.
Imo, 4e is doing well enough to continue to be published and for new books to keep coming down the pike. So if you like the game, don't panic. If, like me, you don't ... meh, so what.
There's no doubt in my mind WOTC slashed it's customer base massively, by any sane standard. Even if they only lost a third of their 3.5 era numbers that's still an enormous loss by any business standard. It does seem, having spoken with game store owners myself (who seem to back up the fact it does still sell far better than any other rpg) and gamers, that 4e is by it's nature an 'entry' game. It appeals more to rookie young gamers than older hands. (Which highlights the absurdity of the red box, or the 'hey honest guys it's still D&D'-box as I tend to think of it. The whole thing is entry level - so having a seperate entry level box is needless.)
As I say though, it'll go on. Clearly it's doing 'okay'. I find it a pity I cannot buy new D&D books to mine for ideas any more as they annoy me too much, but that's just me. And hey, thankfully I have Paizo for that. :-)
I think it's actually a neverwinter campaign guide - a city sourcebook for the forgotten realms rather than a new setting. It looks pretty good (from the two paragraph blurb on their catalog).
I don't know what neverwinter nights is - is the similarity of name a coincidence?
Never Winter Nights is a CRPG (well a couple actually) based, mainly, in the Forgotten Realms city of Never Winter. The only reason Never Winter (as opposed to, say, Waterdeep) is getting a setting book is because of the CRPGs...which is what I am b$%!$ing and moaning about...
...Well along with the fact that there is no evidence of a 'real' campaign setting. I'd buy Dragonlance (if it focused mainly on the War of the Lance period) and might buy some of the other options depending on what was being put out and if it was done as well as the Darksun Campaign setting book (which was awesome).
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On the other hand, suggesting WFRP 2e (which I think Mr Dancey must be talking about) is based on the D20 system is... not terribly plausible.
Well, I don't think it's any less plausible than alot of similar system mechanics that originated or were made popular with the d20 system that can be found in other games.
I'm thinking in particular the concept of full, half, free and immediate actions, which exist even in the 40K RPG line now, and has become replicated in several others as well.
You could argue that Talents were inspired by feats, and if you look at the two systems wholly on a numerical level, d20 is really just blocks of 5% which is emulated nicely in the WHFRP 2e system.
I don't think it's enough to say that it ripped d20 off - but I think there are certainly parts that were inspired by.
Honestly, I don't think I see the big deal either way, I can't think of a single system out there that hasn't begged, borrowed or stolen some idea from another at some point in its life.
Since none of us has managed to track down the original review at this point, I think it's largely hearsay and conjecture what his actual quote was.
Never Winter Nights is a CRPG (well a couple actually) based, mainly, in the Forgotten Realms city of Never Winter. The only reason Never Winter (as opposed to, say, Waterdeep) is getting a setting book is because of the CRPGs...which is what I am b~~%@ing and moaning about...
Ahh I see - I don't play computer games so I didn't realise that. From my position of semi-ignorance, I quite liked the look of the book (from the brief paragraph description I've seen so far). I'm hoping it's a shift towards fleshing out various adventure sites and providing more of a setting rather than a series of encounters.
...Well along with the fact that there is no evidence of a 'real' campaign setting. I'd buy Dragonlance (if it focused mainly on the War of the Lance period) and might buy some of the other options depending on what was being put out and if it was done as well as the Darksun Campaign setting book (which was awesome).
I agree about the Darksun Campaign setting - it's been one of their best. Although I differ somewhat in that one of the other things I liked about Neverwinter sourcebook was that it was a break from the 'two books, one module, set-and-forget' approach they've been taking. Though I like reading various different campaign settings - I enjoy periodic expansions.
On the official WotC forums for D&D today, I saw a thread about 5th edition speculation and someone had this to say...
"I think I will put it this way. There is a better chance that Pathfinder will change over to 4th edition version sooner than the release of 5th edition."
!!!!
Tell me this will never happen, Paizo! Tell me everything is going to be alright!
It probably won't ever happen. I say 'probably' because nothing is ever certain. I think the above statement about Paizo going to 4th is illustrating that WotC won't be putting out another edition for quite some time.
With WotC putting the brakes on production, it does NOT imply that they're doing bad. I think they're seeing that the speed of earlier releases were saturating the market too quickly, something that was a problem with 3e. In an attempt to hold on to some staying power, they need to slow down the releases of BIG products like Monster Manuals, Player Handbooks, and the like and focus more on adventures. I say this because all their content is available on DDI while adventures aren't.
Also, they need to up the quality of their adventures. While I'm a big fan of 4E for many reasons, I've felt their adventuers were pretty boring, lack-luster, and juvenile while Pathfinder's campaigns were much more to my liking. It could be because Wizards products aren't based on any real setting, but more or less the PoL setting while Pathfinder workes exclusively with Golarion. If it's for that reason, then we need more Setting adventures (Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, etc..) that work well with the continunity of that setting while being interesting and designed for a more mature audience.
I like my 4E and Pathfinder separate so I can embrace and enjoy both styles of play. No mix/matching stuff please, lol.
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Next up is Neverwinter Campaign Setting. If this is their big world release for the year I'm not impressed. Never was interested in doing table top RPGing in a place developed for a CRPG but I suppose some are.
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Errr, Neverwinter is actually a city in the Forgotten Realms setting, where the Neverwinter games happened to be based. It's just another extension of the new FR setting. This isn't a CRPG setting at all (not that the new realms are making me overjoyed, but reducing this to what happened in the Neverwinter Nights would be a mistake).
Errr, Neverwinter is actually a city in the Forgotten Realms setting, where the Neverwinter games happened to be based. It's just another extension of the new FR setting. This isn't a CRPG setting at all (not that the new realms are making me overjoyed, but reducing this to what happened in the Neverwinter Nights would be a mistake)....
Next up is Neverwinter Campaign Setting. If this is their big world release for the year I'm not impressed. Never was interested in doing table top RPGing in a place developed for a CRPG but I suppose some are.
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It's actually a 3-part production item. Much like the Pool of Radiance game in the early 2000's, it's a new CRPG utilizing the 4E mechanics in addition to a new campaign guide, detailing the new Bladesinger class (something I speculate is an Essentials striker for the Swordmage). In addition to these two products is R.A. Salvatore's new Drizzt novel that takes place in Neverwinter.
It's actually a 3-part production item. Much like the Pool of Radiance game in the early 2000's, it's a new CRPG utilizing the 4E mechanics in addition to a new campaign guide, detailing the new Bladesinger class (something I speculate is an Essentials striker for the Swordmage). In addition to these two products is R.A. Salvatore's new Drizzt novel that takes place in Neverwinter.Errr, Neverwinter is actually a city in the Forgotten Realms setting, where the Neverwinter games happened to be based. It's just another extension of the new FR setting. This isn't a CRPG setting at all (not that the new realms are making me overjoyed, but reducing this to what happened in the Neverwinter Nights would be a mistake)....
Next up is Neverwinter Campaign Setting. If this is their big world release for the year I'm not impressed. Never was interested in doing table top RPGing in a place developed for a CRPG but I suppose some are.
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Isn't bladesinger a fey path for warlock or something like that?