Hi all, I am new to the forum and have some questions about the interplay of the summoner and eidolon. I have discovered a few relevant threads, but i don't fully understand how to use all the nifty forum features, so I apologize in advance if this info or any questions have been addressed elsewhere ( please direct me in that case ).
Is there any soft wear that can help keep track of creatures summoned by spells in a simple fashion. I started using hero-forge in game and i love the digital tools to help with bns/negs and spell usage. Some thing like that would be real nice. oh and by the way I am a real Luddite in this area.
The eidolon has primary and secondary attacks which are listed in the APA. I have a quadruped with bite and 2claws , both are listed as primary attacks , so according to the rules I use the full BAB for all (3) primary attacks ? is that correct ?
does the eidolon have it's own Initiative or does it use the summoners ?
does the summoner have to touch the eidolon ( in the event of touch spells ) or does the link allow the summoner to cast the touch spell regardless of where the eidolon is ( IE 20 feat away )
the Eidolon starts as a medium creature, does the quadruped occupy a 5x5 spot or is it longer than that ( this may be a legacy question, that got skipped when i read the core book) I seem to remember horses and such begin 5 wide and 10 long.
the eidolon cannot wear armor. is this cast in stone or is there a way around it ?
I have seen some builds with what i assume to be 6 arm bipeds , using swords and such. Granted theses are higher level eidolons. Assuming they have the right feats is this sorta thing legal ? ( legal as in generally accepted , Not a house rule )
further more i am under the impression the eidolon is still limited by it's Max attack cap.
speaking of feats What sort of limitations does the eidolon have ? can I basically get any monster or hero feat that i meet the prerequisites for ?
Is there a thread with Eidolon builds floating around?
well I think thats all I have for now. Thanks in advance :)
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The eidolon has primary and secondary attacks which are listed in the APA. I have a quadruped with bite and 2claws , both are listed as primary attacks , so according to the rules I use the full BAB for all (3) primary attacks ? is that correct ?
Yes. You can use up to the number of natural attacks based on Eidolon level in the APG (weapon attacks are unlimited).
does the eidolon have it's own Initiative or does it use the summoners?
There are no RAW so it depends on the GM, but keep in mind they are mentally linked. Most GM's I've seen use one initiative roll to not slow down the game. If yours keeps them separate, it nerfs (and I wouldn't get) the Improved Initiative feat by 50%.
does the summoner have to touch the eidolon ( in the event of touch spells ) or does the link allow the summoner to cast the touch spell regardless of where the eidolon is ( IE 20 feat away )
Without the Reach Spell feat or metamagic wand, touch is required.
the Eidolon starts as a medium creature, does the quadruped occupy a 5x5 spot or is it longer than that ( this may be a legacy question, that got skipped when i read the core book) I seem to remember horses and such begin 5 wide and 10 long.
5x5 and you can choose the height/weight based on size category. If you are a min/max player (like me) choose the min height/weight for your size (medium is 4' height, 63 lbs weight) so that Enlarge Person cast on your Eidolon will likely not be restricted due to the height of the room/area you are in.
the eidolon cannot wear armor. is this cast in stone or is there a way around it ?
Cast in stone. No feat/evolution/etc can allow armor (including shield although some people who don't understand the rules disagree - you can search the forum).
I have seen some builds with what i assume to be 6 arm bipeds , using swords and such. Granted theses are higher level eidolons. Assuming they have the right feats is this sorta thing legal ? ( legal as in generally accepted , Not a house rule )
further more i am under the impression the eidolon is still limited by it's Max attack cap.
It is legal. Only max NATURAL attacks are capped, not weapon attacks (though there are strong penalties for using a natural and weapon attack from the same limb).
speaking of feats What sort of limitations does the eidolon have ? can I basically get any monster or hero feat that i meet the prerequisites for ?
Not monster, only hero feat. It is an outsider, not a monster.
Is there a thread with Eidolon builds floating around?...
Yes, but you must learn to build properly as almost every posted build is illegal (read: overpowered) - VERY few people can build a legal Summoner without purchasing HeroLab.
Stabatha wrote:
speaking of feats What sort of limitations does the eidolon have ? can I basically get any monster or hero feat that i meet the prerequisites for ?
Not monster, only hero feat. It is an outsider, not a monster.
I disagree, There is no rule stating they cannot get monster feats, as for the "they are outsiders, not monsters" 'monster' in not a type or subtype. Also, the bone devil gets 'Quicken Spell like ability', a monster feat.
I disagree, There is no rule stating they cannot get monster feats, as for the "they are outsiders, not monsters" 'monster' in not a type or subtype. Also, the bone devil gets 'Quicken Spell like ability', a monster feat.Stabatha wrote:
speaking of feats What sort of limitations does the eidolon have ? can I basically get any monster or hero feat that i meet the prerequisites for ?
Not monster, only hero feat. It is an outsider, not a monster.
He's probably talking about for PFS play. :(
A lot of people assume all questions are for PFS. Under PFS, all bestiary feats are prohibited for PCs, including the Eidelon.
Under core rules, the Eidelon can take any feat he can qualify for. There is some question as to whether he can take feats that duplicate evolutions. That would be a GM question (improved natural attack comes to mind).
Kilroy, the rules are silent concerning shield. How did you get to the conclusion that eidolon can't use shield and that people who think otherwise don't understand the rule?
Eidolon are not proficient with shield, which means that you have to spend a feat to be able to use them effectively, but I can't find any rule stating that eidolon can't use shield.
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I'm sorry, I always assume PFS play and forget to specify that.
Kilroy, the rules are silent concerning shield. How did you get to the conclusion that eidolon can't use shield and that people who think otherwise don't understand the rule?
I think it is ridiculous to assume shields are not armor. They are.
OK, I understand (about the FPS), sorry if I came off a little harsh. I can't say I completely agree on the shields, though.
EDIT: Shields are also weapons.
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I'm sorry, I always assume PFS play and forget to specify that.
Kilroy, the rules are silent concerning shield. How did you get to the conclusion that eidolon can't use shield and that people who think otherwise don't understand the rule?I think it is ridiculous to assume shields are not armor. They are.
Taking armor proficiency doesn't automatically mean shields are covered. Shields give a shield bonus. It's generally considered a defensive equipment, but it's not armor. A tri-keen can use shield, but not armor (unless it's special armor). Everything points to shields are not armor, but it is defensive equipment that can be used as a weapon.
I don't know if it was ever stated for certain. Paizo probably needs to state it one way or another. Or rewrite all sorts of summoner stuff, because that class mucks up lots of things.
I'm sorry, I always assume PFS play and forget to specify that.
Kilroy, the rules are silent concerning shield. How did you get to the conclusion that eidolon can't use shield and that people who think otherwise don't understand the rule?I think it is ridiculous to assume shields are not armor. They are.
Yes and no. They are in the armor section, but they still have their own feats, and being proficient with one does not transfer to the other.
What should have been done instead of classifying "armor" under armor was to have armor as a main category, and "shields" and "suits of armor" as sub categories.
I'm sorry, I always assume PFS play and forget to specify that.
Kilroy, the rules are silent concerning shield. How did you get to the conclusion that eidolon can't use shield and that people who think otherwise don't understand the rule?I think it is ridiculous to assume shields are not armor. They are.
It is specified, for every classes and every types of creatures in the game, if the class or the monster is proficient with armors and shields. Armors and shields are always treated as two different things. Please, tell me why it would be different for the eidolon. You can say it's the way you read/understand it, but you can't say this is RAW.
Until you people band together and rewrite the dictionary definition of shield for the entire English language, I'm going to assume Paizo is speaking English, not your own sub-variant.
Paizo uses a subset of english called 'Game Terms'. Game Terms, however, are only loosely associated with the english language they are derived from.
Honestly, the Summoner is, to me, the biggest hash I've seen Paizo put out. I love the concept of the class, but it got so nerfed and rewritten and exceptioned that nobody can agree on anything that isn't spelled out in explicit detail.
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Honestly, the Summoner is, to me, the biggest hash I've seen Paizo put out. I love the concept of the class, but it got so nerfed and rewritten and exceptioned that nobody can agree on anything that isn't spelled out in explicit detail.
Truer words have never been written. They did a poor job of forcing people to buy HeroLab and troll forums for hours to post a legal level 1 character. I LOVE the summoner concept and hate memorizing 100 tiny nerfs instead of 1-4 larger ones that equate to the same balance.
What MDT says. They use game terms which do not always match up to the common use of the English term.
Armor gives armor bonuses, shield grant shield bonuses..While both types of armor, they are not the same thing in game terms.
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Armor gives armor bonuses, shield grant shield bonuses. While both types of armor, they are not the same thing in game terms.
The RAW are 'The Eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind' - so if a shield is armor, which it is according to the English language, and there is no explicit game term stating otherwise, then the Eidolon cannot wear a shield.
By your reasoning, they cannot wear bracers either
Word Origin & History
bracer
1580s, "a clamp, bind, brace," from brace. Figurative sense of "that which braces the nerves" is 1740; esp. of alcoholic drinks from c.1850. Earlier, in M.E., "armor for the arm." Related: Bracers.
Bold id mine.
What MDT says. They use game terms which do not always match up to the common use of the English term.
Armor gives armor bonuses, shield grant shield bonuses..While both types of armor, they are not the same thing in game terms.
When you read the flavor text related to that, it says something like ''armors cut the link between the Summoner and his eidolon''. To me, only something big, something that you have to wear all over your body, like an armor, can be able to cut that link. I don't see how wearing a buckler could to such a thing, while a weapon couldn't.
Ok I thought about it and now I'm inclined to think that the eidolon can't use shields because shields are not mentionned in the martial training evolution (even if a shield can be used as a martial weapon).
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By your reasoning, they cannot wear bracers either
Bold id mine.Word Origin & History
bracer
1580s, "a clamp, bind, brace," from brace. Figurative sense of "that which braces the nerves" is 1740; esp. of alcoholic drinks from c.1850. Earlier, in M.E., "armor for the arm." Related: Bracers.
'Armor for the arm' isn't the same as armor. Otherwise a ring would be considered armor, after-all, it is metal and protects 1/4000th of the body. Also, Middle English root word origins are not the same as dictionary definitions in January 2010.
Armor gives armor bonuses, shield grant shield bonuses. While both types of armor, they are not the same thing in game terms.The RAW are 'The Eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind' - so if a shield is armor, which it is according to the English language, and there is no explicit game term stating otherwise, then the Eidolon cannot wear a shield.
That is debatable. All classes and well anything that says armor and shields stats clearly what armor and shields you may or may not use.
As it never says you can not use a shield. It stats armor. Quote a dictionary all you want but armor and shields are not the same thing in game terms. You saying they are does not make them so for game terms.
Shields do not grant armor bonuses so they are not in game terms armor.
I have to say if I were a brand new poster looking for basic advice on a very complicated class, a bunch of forum regulars arguing over dictionary vs game book definitions would not be what I was looking for or particularly helpful.
Actually I am really into it. the forum is getting me to think about a number of issues I hadn't thought of. ....But i also don't want to get too off topic :)
I would recomend reading the whole Eidolon creation rules multiple times and each Evolution you take again. If you find the Eidolon is appearing over powered chances are a mistake was made.
clear understanding of primary attacks vs secondary attacks and how manufactured weapons interact with natural weapons is a must.
I have to say if I were a brand new poster looking for basic advice on a very complicated class, a bunch of forum regulars arguing over dictionary vs game book definitions would not be what I was looking for or particularly helpful.
I hate when people post things like this, all the questions were answered so who cares what we post after that. Not like you contributed any more to the discussion either. Cause ya cant, it was handled
I hate when people post things like this, all the questions were answered so who cares what we post after that. Not like you contributed any more to the discussion either. Cause ya cant, it was handledI have to say if I were a brand new poster looking for basic advice on a very complicated class, a bunch of forum regulars arguing over dictionary vs game book definitions would not be what I was looking for or particularly helpful.
see , now there is a point i would like to have clarified. How can there be more weapon attacks than natural attacks? please explain in more detail :)
I was under the assumption that only class levels can grant bonus attacks, and since the eidolon does not have a class per say.
it works likevthis. say we have a level 9 eidolon +7 BaB. he has 6 arms a str of 28 and 4 of the arms have claws. he wields a great sword and he is large. his attack is like this
+15/+10 3d6 +13 great sword. followed by 4 claws at +13 1d8 +4
oh also he has multi attack for level 9
No worries James , That was a very good explanation. I think I get it
, Now I may be a little dense, but "what is the trigger for additional attacks "?
I understand the 1 weapon per applicable limb, and the number of natural attacks as well.
Does the high strength bonus add additional attacks for every +5 , or is the high strength there to counter the -modifiers and up the damage?
see , now there is a point i would like to have clarified. How can there be more weapon attacks than natural attacks? please explain in more detail :)
I was under the assumption that only class levels can grant bonus attacks, and since the eidolon does not have a class per say.
It really has nothing to do with bonus attacks; provided you use a full attack, you can attack with as many manufactured weapons as you want, provided you have the limbs to wield them.
So, in the case of exceeding your natural attack limit...
A Level 2 bipedal Eidolon has a maximum of 3 natural attacks, and an evolution pool of 4. Now, say it has the Limbs (Arms) and Weapon Training (Simple) evolutions, both requiring two points. In which case, I can give my four-armed Eidolon 4 maces, and have him attack with all four attacks as a full-round action, exceeding the 3-attack limit that natural weapons have.
As you can imagine, this can get quite deadly in later levels once you start giving it more arms and perhaps even Weapon Training (Martial).
No worries James , That was a very good explanation. I think I get it
, Now I may be a little dense, but "what is the trigger for additional attacks "?
I understand the 1 weapon per applicable limb, and the number of natural attacks as well.
Does the high strength bonus add additional attacks for every +5 , or is the high strength there to counter the -modifiers and up the damage?
manufactured weapons use the normal rules. you can make one attack per natural weapon as secondary attack provided it was not used in another attack.
so if the 4 armed mace wielding eidolon above used it's 4 mace attacks it cannot Aldo claw as the hands with the claws are bein used.
natural attacks as secondary weapons are at -5 and xo half strength. there is a feat called multi attack at level 9 that reduces the penalty to -2
thanks for the help everyone. the only question i don't think has been covered is if there is a good cheap software to track all the normal summoned monsters i will be using ?
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thanks for the help everyone. the only question i don't think has been covered is if there is a good cheap software to track all the normal summoned monsters i will be using ?
Indeed, there is something! Search the messageboards for Summon PDF's and you'll find someone who has put a lot of work into making a pdf for each level of each list.
Edit: Linky
thanks but, these all seem to be shut down.