I was wondering about balance and fun considerations for this stat-system, comments most welcome:
1. Each stat starts as "9"
2. Add 1d6 to each stat
3. The values cannot be shuffled; if you want high strength but roll low, that is too bad
4. Using the stats you have at this point, you may spend an additional 7 points using the classic Pathfinder point-buy scale
5. Buying points back is not allowed
Example:
I'll spend 7 more points to form my final character:
Str 14 + 2(racial)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 13
Turns out I'm playing a fighter!
EDIT: fixed after dice changed...
there is a huge reason they got rid of rolling stats in order, no one likes it when the character concept they took 3 months thinking up gets trashed because they didn't get any useful stats
I prefer to follow something I saw on these boards once, I let my players have any stats they want between 8 and 18, half even half odd, and total modifier +8 or lower
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This is the best system I ever saw for hybrid point buy/rolling.
Step 1: Choose Softcore (6 points) or Hardcore (7 points).
Step 2: Buy six equations.
Step 3: If Hardcore, assign equations to stats.
Step 4: Roll equations to get total values.
Step 5: Spend any remaining points as Contingency.
Step 6: If Softcore, assign stats as desired.
When buying equations, you purchase a 'range' as follows:
Rank A: 3 points: 15 + 1/2d6 (rounded down) (15-18 range)
Rank B: 2 points: 10 + 2d4 (12-18 range)
Rank C: 1 point: 6 + 2d6 (8-18 range)
Rank D: 0 points: 3d6 (3-18 range)
You don't have to spend all your points on equations at the start, and can leave some for Contingency Points, useful after you roll. These are to help out a number that you paid a bit for, but didn't roll as well as you'd like.
You can spend 1 point to give a bonus to scores as follows:
3-7: +3
8-14: +2
15-17: +1
I choose hardcore so I have 7 points.
I'm playing a wizard so my highest score will definately be int. I'm also thinking I'll use a few ranged touch attacks so I'm going to decide that dex should be my next highest score, followed by con. Wis, Str, and Cha are all less important.
I buy one A equation, and 2 C equations. This costs me 3 points for the A equation, and 1 point each for each C equations and 3 D equations for no points, totalling to 5 points. This leaves me 2 contingency points.
I assign my equations to stats:
Str - D
Dex - C
Con - C
Int - A
Wis - D
Cha - D
I now roll my Str which is 3d6, and I come out with a 13.
I roll my Dex which is 6+2d6 and get a 14
I roll my Con which is 6+2d6 and unfortunately get an 8
I roll my Int which is ½d6(rounded down) get a 17
I roll my Wis which is 3d6 and get a 7.
I roll my Cha which is 3d6 and get an 11
I have two contingency points to use. I know I want to use at least one on my con, because i rolled minimum on that. That increases it to 10.
Now this is where the decision gets tough. I rolled a 7 for wisdom, and can boost that to 10, having no negative stats. I have a 10 in con, when I'd rather have that higher in case I get hit. I also have a 17 in int, which I could boost that to an 18. The choice is yours and yours alone. I'd probably go 18 int or boost the wisdom to increase my will save and senses by two. It's really a choice of whether you want to boost your assets or mimize your weaknesses. Either way, this system has created a very useable wizard while also allowing it to be non-stereotypical in references to having str as a dump stat.
Softcore Example
I choose softcore so I have 6 points.
I buy equations, buying 5 Cs for one point each, and 1 D for 0 points, netting me with 1 point left over.
I roll 6+2d6 5 times, and 3d6 once, and get the following array: 14, 15, 18, 10, 11, 5.
I have a contingency point so I spend it on the 5, boosting it to an 8. I have the following array now: 18, 15, 14, 11, 10, 8.
I take these scores and arrange as desired.
This is the best system I ever saw for hybrid point buy/rolling.
** spoiler omitted **Examples** spoiler omitted **...
I rather like that system for rolling "Epic" heros with a good chance of flawed stats if you like them.
Lorekeeper -- I would allow a buy back of 2 points (meaning they can drop one stat by two points or two stats by one point each). That way if they really want a wizard but get a Int of 15 with a strength of 16 with everything else fairly even they can get the Int to 17 ish without going insane.
This wouldn't give extra points like what you currently get for dropping from an 8 to a 7.
Gives a bit of flexibility and room to allow a low stat where someone might want it.
Both stat and hit point rolling are a great way to kick one of your players in the head and then laugh at him as he chokes on his own blood and goes into seizures.
That kind of unfairness is mostly frowned upon at the game table.
High hit dice are a class feature, why should they be neutralized by the roll of a single die? Likewise, making a character into a balanced concept ultimately only supports fair play if everyone has the same points to start their stats with.
You wanna play Joe Slightly Above Average? That's your perogative. Chuck the Unstoppable Cleric? Likewise your perogative. 20pts goes a long way.
If you really want to do rolled pointbuy, consider 13+3d4 character build points. Average still rolls out to 20, and you have a significant chance of having either a completely suck or a really OP character.
Likewise, making a character into a balanced concept ultimately only supports fair play if everyone has the same points to start their stats with.
Oh I agree, point-buy is the way to go for most games. Though the fairness of point-buy depends a little on the classes at play. Certain things are a lot more forgiving to point-buy than others. Things like Clerics actually have quite a bit of leeway in how they invest their points, where monks have a very narrow band of choices available.
The system I propose is for games that are by design a bit more random. Any character can (after racials) have at least a 17 in one particular score of his choice (using 7 points to point-buy from 10 to 15, +2 racial).
The question is if it is sufficiently flexible with 7 points to make a playable character (I know that this is a random system, so you won't necessarily be able to make the character you want; the question is if you can make a playable character).
I would suggest using 3d6+4(drop the lowest) with a 10 point buy topper. That would give an "average" stat of 12 with the ability to buy three 14s, or a 16 and a 14 (on average).
It'll come out a little higher than the 4d6 drop the lowest with a bit less "bouncy" result.
I was wondering about balance and fun considerations for this stat-system, comments most welcome:
1. Each stat starts as "9"
2. Add 1d6 to each stat
3. The values cannot be shuffled; if you want high strength but roll low, that is too bad
4. Using the stats you have at this point, you may spend an additional 7 points using the classic Pathfinder point-buy scale
5. Buying points back is not allowedExample:
9 + 1d6
9 + 1d6
9 + 1d6
9 + 1d6
9 + 1d6
9 + 1d6I'll spend 7 more points to form my final character:
Str 14 + 2(racial)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 13Turns out I'm playing a fighter!
EDIT: fixed after dice changed...
I really like this! Although, I have never been a big fan of rule #3. I hate when a good character concept get tanks because of bad rolls.
My version of stat roll/point buy is roll your stats however you want and recreate them to the best of your ability with 25 point buy.
You mean like re-creating the relative trends of the stats without necessarily having a "3" in Con? That could actually be quite cool.
I might as well bring this up since it seems appropriate:
You need a deck of standard playing cards.
Take the cards from one suit, numbered 4 to 9. Lay them out in the order of your ability scores as you choose.
Next, take the same set of cards from a different suit, shuffle them and place one on each ability score face down.
Turn all the face down cards face up and total each pair.
Optional rule: If you want a bit more control, you may then choose up to two ability scores and move one point from each to a different one (you cannot put both points in the same ability score).
If I was invited to play a game and told that would be the attribute generation system, I would decline to join the game. I don't see anything fun about it, and it's certainly not balanced at all.
If I was invited to play a game and told that would be the attribute generation system, I would decline to join the game. I don't see anything fun about it, and it's certainly not balanced at all.
Quantify please
I tend to like this system. I too am turned off by rule #3, but I can see it really isn't a problem since you can always get at least one high ability of your choosing if you really want it. I don't like the added complexity, but it is at least less complex a system as the point buy system and it does tend to avoid dump stats. Good job LoreKeeper.
My one complaint is the lack of any chance to roll a really low score, and that tends to drive me away from using the system in favor of other systems. Is there any way to address this problem?
Karui Kage's system addresses the problem well enough, but is too complex in my assessment.
I tend to like this system. I too am turned off by rule #3, but I can see it really isn't a problem since you can always get at least one high ability of your choosing if you really want it. I don't like the added complexity, but it is at least less complex a system as the point buy system and it does tend to avoid dump stats. Good job LoreKeeper.
My one complaint is the lack of any chance to roll a really low score, and that tends to drive me away from using the system in favor of other systems. Is there any way to address this problem?
Karui Kage's system addresses the problem well enough, but is too complex in my assessment.
Well, there is one easy way to do that:
Change the system as follows:
- Starting stats are 11 10 10 9 8 6; assigned to attributes as player chooses
- Add 1d6 to each stat
- Values cannot be shuffled between stats, if you rolled poorly for your favorite stat, that is too bad
- Using the stats you have at this point, you may spend an additional 7 points using the classic Pathfinder point-buy scale
- Buying points back is not allowed
There is something about rolling stats in order then building a Character from those stats that is fun. Not that I'd do it all the time. It's just fun to do sometimes.
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A method I have used before and really liked was to take a deck of cards and pull out two of each number from 4-9. Shuffles those together and deal out 6 sets of 2. You'll have a range of 8-18 for attributes(worst they could have would be 2 fours together, best is 2 nines). But because you are giving numbers from a limited pool all the characters will have a similar total modifier, no one is going to have two 18s while someone else has all 11s. It gives a taste of randomness like die rolling because you can't pick exactly what the stats are while keeping things more balanced like point buy.
Generally this way most characters stats will be ~13 and you normally seem to get one or two that swing to the extremes.
Let's see.
Let's see.
Hm. 4 to make Con a 14. 3 to make Cha a 14.
13
11
14
10
15
14
21 point buy. Not bad. I could be an alright cleric.
Need to get worse rolls.
PLEASE GIVE ME SIX TENS
You tried.
7 points in there... 3 to make Str 14, and 3 to make Con 13, and 1 to make Dex 12.
14
12
13
11
12
13
14 point buy.
SIX TENSSSS
Okay that's fine.
3 points making Cha 16, 3 points making Con 16, 1 point making Dex 13.
10
13
15
11
16
16
I think this system is alright. Only problem is that you could theoretically have one person start the game with 18 18 15 15 15 13 and 1 extra meaningless stat point (17+17+7+7+7+3= 58 point buy) and one person start with 13 13 11 10 10 10 (7 point buy).
Ah, stat and hp rolling. Takes me back to the longest campaign I ever played in. My fighter/rogue ended up with a Con of 9 and consistently rolled 1s and 2s on hit points.
...but that guy still managed to live to see level five!
Seriously, rolling static scores is ROUGH.
The problem with the OP system is that you may have a figther with 16 int, cha and wis and 9 con and dex.
Maybe you can try something like this:
1) Point-Buy as usual.
2) Roll the stats in order.
3) The final stat is the higher of 1) and 2)
Example:
My system allows a 15 point-buy, and the rolls are 3d6 reroll 1s. This means that at least every rolled score will be 6, and the average rolled is 12.5.
I want to build a fighter. Point-buy:
15,13,14,12,10,8
I roll:
12,17,6,9,11,16
Final scores are:
15,17,14,12,11,16
This method begins with a viable character (point-buy). If you are lucky you'll have some scores higher, and if you are really lucky that scores will be in the preferred abilities .
Example:
My system allows a 15 point-buy, and the rolls are 3d6 reroll 1s. This means that at least every rolled score will be 6, and the average rolled is 12.5.
[nitpick]1d6 reroll 1's is equivalent to 1d5+1 and thus the average is 12.0 not 12.5[/nitpick]
Quantify please
If I was invited to play a game and told that would be the attribute generation system, I would decline to join the game. I don't see anything fun about it, and it's certainly not balanced at all.
First, When you roll multiple dice and add the total, the results make a bell curve, so that the random numbers generated tend to fall near the middle of the range. Basically, it's vastly more likely to produce characters that are not balanced with each other.
The most extreme examples:
Chance of rolling all 18 or all 3 on 3d6 for attributes = 1:100000000000000
Chance of rolling all 6 or all 1 on 1d6 for attributes = 1:50000
Third, without the ability to arrange stats as desired, players will feel like they have to make the character the dice foretell, not the character they've been wanting to play.