Its generally the sentiment that fighters do a better job at fighting than they do. Their far from useless though, and well able to pull their weight I think.
And more importantly very fun, especially if you love them. So take everything said after this with that grain of salt. Alot of people think little bit weaker equals unbeleivably useless.
I like them conceptually, but they are the only class that suffers major drawbacks for their signature class ability. Rage powers can be nice, but on the whole, they aren't as flexible as feats.
It's not a totally gimped class, but it feels like all the other full BAB classes came out better in the CRB. The APG solves this a little bit, but that does mean that it is more complex (2 books) to build a powerful Barbarian.
With the APG and the new options presented in it, I think the 'fighters rock barbarians suck' argument is particularily dated...
/thread
Vanilla Fighters out-doing Barbarians is based on looking at plain vanilla DPR assuming Full Attacks, where Fighters benefit from Weapon Training and access to (Grt) Wpn Focus/Spec Feats. In real play, you may often have other ´combat utility´ type uses for your Feats instead of those (even if you´re a Fighter). Barbarian single-attack damage can easily match Fighters in general, and this applies to AoO´s, so AoO-maximization tactics would definitely sway the advantage to Barbarians when they work. Notably, with powers like Unexpected Strike and Come and Get Me, Barbarians are very well positioned to take advantage of this.
The APG has introduced enough good options now that there are definitely more than a handful of very effective builds which you must choose from. Intimidate-based Powers, CMB-based Powers with Strength Surge, AoO-triggering Powers, the Beast Totem line culminating in Pounce, not to mention interesting options in the Mounted Fury (Mount Companion) variant w/ associated Powers and Feats, Drunken variant and Powers, Invulnerable variant, and even Hurling Charge is very nice.
I think the main thing about the Barbarian is they are very well-rounded compared to the Fighter. Skill points and Class Skills for one. Defensive abilities, either built-in or as Rage Powers (re-roll Will per Rage rather than 1 Feat= 1 re-roll per Day, Immunities vs. Fort-type conditions) are a strong aspect of the class... Alot of Barbarian abilities/Powers tend to not 100% focus in one direction (i.e. offense), but provide thematic and well-rounded benefits. Taking 2 Powers granting Natural Armor and Claws before gaining Pounce doesn´t look the most optimized for DPR, but it rounds out the character defensively, as well as providing weapons usable when Grappled / inside a Reach Weapon´s threat zone.
APG Fighter variants defintely can be very good at their schtick (Archer, 2WF, Mobile, 2Hander... Mounted Fighters not so much) but are going to be very weak outside of it, where Barbarians can easily be built to be more versatile. The APG Fighter variants, combined with new higher level Barb Powers, make Variant Fighter/Barb multiclassing a more difficult choice - although Vanilla Fighter dip to 4 for Armor Training 1, Tumbling in Med/MithrilHeavy Armor plus Feats can be a good option for Barb builds.
So yeah, it´s good for a 1 or 2 level dip, it´s good straight thru, and it can benefit from a small dip, though you will be jealous of higher level Rage Powers you can´t get as soon. It´s probably easy to make a less than effective Barbarian, but this is also true for Fighters... Though if you go with a specialist variant Fighter and can at least half-competently pick appropriate Feats, those are somewhat more ´goof-proof´ (though they tend to have weaker weaknesses).
I like Monk1/Barb builds for Grappling and Saves, and Half-Orcs, Dwarves, and Humans (esp. with APG Heart of Fields variant racial, for being able to re-start Rage when Fatigued) all make great Barbs. Dragon Disciple is an interesting complement to Barbarian, though casting DURING Rage (as opposed to buffing before) is a problem. Rage Prophet Barb/Oracle PrC fits together rather nicely in that regard.
Probably the nicest thing they could get at this point is more items granting effective use of certain Rage Powers, allowing to ´skip´ lower level Rage Powers in a ´Rage Power Tree´, similar to how some items grant access to certain Feats, like Step Up. The thing to look out for is making efficient use of your Feats, selecting Feats/Rage Powers that synergize with each other to maximal effect.
I was wondering about this as well, but I'm currently playing a level 5 Barbarian/level 1 Rogue and he is not only fun to play, but also very capable in many respects.
I'm going down the elemental rage path, which adds to damage a bit and intimidating glare is very fun because you can intimidate people as a move action. Plus, since he has the thug trait as a rogue, his intimidating glares can actually frighten people at times.
I want to get the knockback rage power along with strength surge for some battlefield control.
Overall, I think the only challenge will be keeping the damage output up at the higher levels. But the fact that my Barbarian can stealth quite well and do some sneak attack damage gives him a bit of an edge.
If you were doing a rouge/barbarian you might want to consider scout rogue flavorwise this will make sense. Mechanics wise once you get 4 levels of scout rouge you can get sneak attack when you pounce but not that much sneak attack but it is still something.
So barbarians are my favorite class....
I'd like to know peoples opinions on weather they are a good class.
Is it just a class to dip into?
Screw people. You like the class, it's your favourite, so it's a good class.
Screw people. You like the class, it's your favourite, so it's a good class.So barbarians are my favorite class....
I'd like to know peoples opinions on weather they are a good class.
Is it just a class to dip into?
Once again, I find myself supporting KaeYoss. If barbarians are all the rage for you... go for it!
Greg
Once again, I find myself supporting KaeYoss.
Just as planned. Doing Imentesh work today.
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Screw people. You like the class, it's your favourite, so it's a good class.So barbarians are my favorite class....
I'd like to know peoples opinions on weather they are a good class.
Is it just a class to dip into?
Once again, I find myself supporting KaeYoss. If barbarians are all the rage for you... go for it!
Greg
** spoiler omitted **
What KaeYoss said. I have to admit I was saddened when I saw the title of this post. Basically, it tells me that folks are looking at the "power level" of a class first, then considering if it'd be fun to play.
My favorite barbarian concept is a beast totem invulnerable rager, unarmed naked barbarian power ftw! It's fun even if it's sub-optimal.
unarmed naked barbarian power ftw! It's fun even if it's sub-optimal.
Oh my god. The mere thought. Sub-optimal or not, enemies will run away screaming.
Whats not to love above the mostly naked, pain loving BDSM barbarian babe.
Come and get me rage power hurts the barb so good and then hurts the baddies oh so badly.
not to mention reckless abandon that turns power attack into bonus damage with no attack penalty.
Pathfinders answer to Warhammer 40k Dark Eldar Wyches ;)
I for one dont play the class that often (even back in 3.5) but from what i have seen from the games we played is that every class is viable and good in its own aspect, if;
1. played correctly (an example of not playing correctly would be a wizard in melee)
and
2. if you have the will to make it succeed. i have seen many class that didnt seem good in play that are actually very good. its all on the player.
are barbarians a good class? i think so. am i gonna play one anytime soon? prolly not. but will i play one at all? yes. it all depends on the character concept. rage powers cant be good as feats because they arent feats. but they are a very interesting and cool ability and its better than not having them.
it just depends on how you want to play the class, what your goal for the character is, and what your play style is. For me (and in my own opinion) sorcerers not only work better for me than wizards, i think they are overall better and have more flavor. i also like fighter over barbarians, and i like rogues. i dont care for cleric, paladin or inquisitor, but i love oracle and druid is always interesting. like i said, its based on the players concept, drive and play style that make the class.
but for a final answer to your question: YES! barbarians are good and they are worth while to play from 1 to 20. people on the forums and myself dont see eye to eye on a lot of things (like the amazingness of colorspray and enervation, wizards better than sorcerers, wizards being gods, evocation being crappy, battlefield control being the only viable spellcasting solution, rogues being useless, and summoner being broken.) i just dont see it like that. i go about what works for me and i let the forums tell me im wrong, but i have yet to be unsuccessful in any game i play, and you should drive for the same.
oh and heres that grain of salt. ill give it to you. i have plenty. ;)
I'm playing a Mul invulnerable rager barbarian in a dark sun campaign right now and it's incredibly fun. Beast totem tree. I have claw/claw/bite and a 26 str when raging, which is pretty badass.
My favorite barbarian concept is a beast totem invulnerable rager, unarmed naked barbarian power ftw! It's fun even if it's sub-optimal.
Precisely what I'm playing. Immensely fun.
You like Barbarians for one simple reason:
You know what is best in life.
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.You like Barbarians for one simple reason:
You know what is best in life.
Actually, it's ”Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.” :)
Actually, it's ”Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.” :)To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.You like Barbarians for one simple reason:
You know what is best in life.
When I first read that years ago, I called up all my friends and reread it to them. GREAT QUOTE
Greg
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How to make any character a barbarian.
Benefit: 1/day per 3 HD, you may enter a Rage. When in a rage, you do not suffer non-proficiency penalties (including for improvised weapons). While in a rage, you cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can you cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. You can use any feat you have except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your Constitution modifier. You may prematurely end your rage. At the end of the rage, you lose the rage modifiers and restrictions and become fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter.
BAB+1: While raging, you gain a +4 str, +2 con, and a +2 morale bonus to will saves, but suffer a -2 penalty to AC.
BAB+6: While raging, you gain DR (1/3 Character Level)/-.
BAB+11: Your attribute bonuses while raging increase to +6 (str and con) and +3 (will) and you gain a +4 bonus to resisting enchantment abilities which stacks with other effects.
BAB+16: Your attribute bonuses while raging increase to +8 (str and con) and +4 (will). You are no longer fatigued at the end of your rage, and, if below -10 hp, may continue to function until your rage ends.
Actually, it's ”Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.” :)To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.You like Barbarians for one simple reason:
You know what is best in life.
Apparently Terry Pretchett is full of good advice for barbarians:
"What is it that a man may call the greatest things in life?"
"Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper."
-- Cohen the Barbarian in conversation with Discworld nomads
"But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just rush in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight awa'."
-- Feegle tactics
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon...
I was thinking of 'duh?' in the sense of 'a sentence containing several words more than three letters long, and possibly requiring general knowledge or a sense of history that extends past last Tuesday, has been
used in my presense.'
"Today Is A Good Day For Someone Else To Die!"
-- Feet of Clay
Just anecdotal… our groups’ fighter died when we were 5th level and rerolled as a barbarian. We just hit 8th level and only miss the fighter for RP reasons.
How to make any character a barbarian.
** spoiler omitted **
I love the Angry Marines. Those and the Reasonable Marines are the funniest 40k stuff to come out of the Internet.
Would you say that this feat is balanced? Because I think it's rad and want to allow it in my upcoming West Marches-style game.
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I don't post anything I don't think is balanced. :)
Of course, I tend to play at a higher power than most, but I think the abilities being spread out over the levels makes it not significantly stronger than most. And it favors Full BAB characters more than others.
Obviously it doesn't stack with Barbarian Rage. :)
How to make any character a barbarian.
** spoiler omitted **
I've always had fun with my barbarians. My second character ever was one, while admittedly it was under 3.5 rules and it was more of a Barbarian 1/Fighter 5 I think, he was fun to play. Most fun I've had with a Barbarian was a Brutal Pugilist variant in Kingmaker (I've since changed to a wizard cause a 2 Barbarian 1 Cavalier party was just asking for trouble, no ranged whatsoever and too much competition for the "kill"). He grappled things easily, fought bare handed and even soloed a difficult encounter.
Oddly, he's been my most intelligent martial type, had a 13 INT specifically to get Combat Expertise then Improved Disarm and Trip.
I had never played a barbarian until my Warblade met an untimely end (trying to keep a T-Rex from munching on his scattered, almost-drowned buddies on a beach). I decided to jack my Con score higher than my Str score, take Toughness, etc... and I found that he just WOULD NOT DIE. If you want a character that will take a lickin' and keep on kickin' Barbarians are the way to go.