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While the fantasy purists might shun me, I just can't help but look at the similarities between Aroden and the God Emperor of Mankind from the Warhammer 40,000 K universe. God of Human Progress, a paragon of humanity himself? I mean, this is AWESOME.
I'm sad that you can't be an actual Paladin of Aroden and still get spells. Because Paladins are pretty much everything you could hope for in being a "Space Marine" in the Golarion setting. Screw Iomedae, I want would LOVE to create a Paladin of Aroden. And I'd love to venture finding Aroden's essence bound to a golden throne somewhere in Golarion. It just makes it all the more sweeter with the introduction of Daemons in Bestiary 2!
And now I will leave you with a modified quote from the God Emperor of Mankind, making it sound as if Aroden were saying it upon giving power to his Paladins.
They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest swords will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and weapons so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Evil. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Paladins and they shall know no fear.
- Aroden, on the Creation of His Paladins
(Original quote from The Emperor of Mankind, on the Creation of the Space Marines)
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Technically paladins don't draw their spells directly from a specific deity, so this isn't necessarily true as long as you don't take the sacred servant archetype.
I'm sad that you can't be an actual Paladin of Aroden and still get spells.
The problem is that these are divine spells, and thus they come from their respective god. They prepare spells like clerics do, and thus I don't think are able to gain spells if they worship a dead god.
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The problem is that these are divine spells, and thus they come from their respective god. They prepare spells like clerics do, and thus I don't think are able to gain spells if they worship a dead god.Technically paladins don't draw their spells directly from a specific deity, so this isn't necessarily true as long as you don't take the sacred servant archetype.
I'm sad that you can't be an actual Paladin of Aroden and still get spells.
Oracles cast divine spells which don't come from a god too.
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Hmmm, I'm being convinced that my next PFS character is going to be a Paladin of Aroden. There is a prestige class that allows you to forgo spellcasting (although I'm not entirely sure I want to go that route, but at the same time it negates the argument I could have with GMs about Aroden).
Feel free to run along those lines. I just remember reading up on Aroden and thinking "man, that sounds REALLY familiar." And I love 40k stuff (love reading the novels by Dan Abnett).
Aroden is not the only god who shares similarities with gods of other universes (the ones that match up with FR are easy to spot, so they don't count). I mean, one could look at the similarities between Rovagug and Shai'tan from the Wheel of Time series (albeit, Shai'tan is a bit craftier than Rovagug)
+1
I like this idea, consider it stolen. I have been toying with making Golarion part of the 40k universe for some time in order to ease my players into some Dark Heresy/RogueTrader/DeathWatch (converted to d20/Pathfinder).
+1 I've been waiting to see someone toy with trying to do such a conversion by bringing DH/RT/DW into d20/Pathfinder.
Creative Director
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Clerics (and probably inquisitors) are the only class that gets their spells directly from a deity at this point in the game. Other divine spellcasters CAN get spells from a deity, but they don't have to; they can get them from philosophies, pantheons, or whatever.
If a spellcasting class says its alignment has to be within 1 step of its deity, and/or if that class has access to domains, that's pretty much how you know that spellcaster gets spells from a deity.
So you COULD have a paladin of Aroden, where you couldn't have a cleric of Aroden or an Inquisitor of Aroden. Doesn't mean being a paladin of Aroden is a wise or smart choice, because you'll not have a strong network of support and most folks will regard you as something of a pitiable figure at best or a madman at worst. The vast majority of Aroden's worshipers, including his paladins, now worship Iomedae.
Of course, all of these rules are subject to GM whim—but that's how we'll be presenting things in Golarion products.
There's also a great similarity in that they're both dead.
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Clerics (and probably inquisitors) are the only class that gets their spells directly from a deity at this point in the game. Other divine spellcasters CAN get spells from a deity, but they don't have to; they can get them from philosophies, pantheons, or whatever.
If a spellcasting class says its alignment has to be within 1 step of its deity, and/or if that class has access to domains, that's pretty much how you know that spellcaster gets spells from a deity.
So you COULD have a paladin of Aroden, where you couldn't have a cleric of Aroden or an Inquisitor of Aroden. Doesn't mean being a paladin of Aroden is a wise or smart choice, because you'll not have a strong network of support and most folks will regard you as something of a pitiable figure at best or a madman at worst. The vast majority of Aroden's worshipers, including his paladins, now worship Iomedae.
Of course, all of these rules are subject to GM whim—but that's how we'll be presenting things in Golarion products.
Thanks so much for this little tidbit. I'm definitely going to create a Paladin of Aroden for PFS. As soon as I can get enough PA, I will get an amulet of natural adaptation and a ring of freedom of movement, and be a "Space Marine." :)
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+1 I've been waiting to see someone toy with trying to do such a conversion by bringing DH/RT/DW into d20/Pathfinder.
It doesn't seem like it would be that hard, the systems aren't that dissimilar, skills, feats, classes, etc. If only I could just divide everything by 5 to go from d100 to d20, that would make is super easy.
I really like the idea of buying class features with XP like the DH/RT/DW system uses.
It's just a matter of finding the time to do the work and tricking my players into playing it. Stupid RL obligations!
Even without bringing Warhammer 40k into it you could still get a lot of roleplaying mileage out of an order of Paladins still following Aroden and determined to bring him back, viewing those who transferred their worship to Iomedae as heretics.
Throw in a Anti-Paladin (former Paladin of Aroden) who claims to have killed the god hiding out somewhere around the Worldwound and off you go.
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But....Aroden wasn't Lawful Evil! :P
Seriously though, Aroden was a hell of a lot nicer and more open minded than Xenophobe McGenocide. He even had non-human clerics in good standing, which is actually a lot more than can be said for one of the actual good gods(albiet a minor one and with a different racial preference).
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Even without bringing Warhammer 40k into it you could still get a lot of roleplaying mileage out of an order of Paladins still following Aroden and determined to bring him back, viewing those who transferred their worship to Iomedae as heretics.
Throw in a Anti-Paladin (former Paladin of Aroden) who claims to have killed the god hiding out somewhere around the Worldwound and off you go.
I'm thinking of a Paladin/Bard/Cavalier/Battle Herald (whenever he can get enough levels), to be a Primarch of the dead god Aroden! Immune to fear, pestilence, and ready to fight any anti-paladins corrupted by daemons! :)
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Far as I can tell (granted, much of my knowledge comes from 1d4chan's wiki, which is uh, questionable), the open-mindedness of the Emperor is highly debated. The IMPERIUM, well, yeah, whole bunch of Xenophobe McGenocides, but there's a lot of stuff about how that's because the Imperial Cult screwed up the EMPRAH'S original vision after he got stuck in the Golden Throne.But....Aroden wasn't Lawful Evil! :P
Seriously though, Aroden was a hell of a lot nicer and more open minded than Xenophobe McGenocide. He even had non-human clerics in good standing, which is actually a lot more than can be said for one of the actual good gods(albiet a minor one and with a different racial preference).
Tim is right, the Emperor was a bit more open and welcoming to other people and ideas versus the current Imperium. In fact, he never wanted to be looked at as a 'god,' but that's exactly what happened with his quasi-death. The whole 40k universe is very dystopian in nature.
Anyway, enough 40k. I'm still interested in how Aroden died. I mean, for a system built where the gods don't have stats, what the hell killed a god, and why hasn't it killed more gods?
I'm still interested in how Aroden died. I mean, for a system built where the gods don't have stats, what the hell killed a god, and why hasn't it killed more gods?
Who says it hasn't?
The humans cobble together three pretty major deities in ten thousand years. How long has Golarion existed? Heck, how long has the multiverse existed? And yet somehow there isn't a massive glut of gods in the outer realms, so many gods... Why is that? Where do they all go? Who kills them all?
Doesn't mean being a paladin of Aroden is a wise or smart choice, because you'll not have a strong network of support and most folks will regard you as something of a pitiable figure at best or a madman at worst.
Could you make that sound a little more awesome?
Doesn't mean being a paladin of Aroden is a wise or smart choice, because you'll not have a strong network of support and most folks will regard you as something of a pitiable figure at best or a madman at worst.
That could make for an interesting combination of Don Quixote and a Space Marine. 'Smart' and 'wise' shouldn't always guide character generation, IMO. I've seen some less than optimal choices that led to really fun, interesting PCs.
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Doesn't mean being a paladin of Aroden is a wise or smart choice, because you'll not have a strong network of support and most folks will regard you as something of a pitiable figure at best or a madman at worst.Could you make that sound a little more awesome?
From Man of La Mancha
DON QUIXOTE
It is the mission of each true knight...
His duty... nay, his privilege!
To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go;
To right the unrightable wrong.
To love, pure and chaste, from afar,
To try, when your arms are too weary,
To reach the unreachable star!
This is my Quest to follow that star,
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far,
To fight for the right
Without question or pause,
To be willing to march into hell
For a heavenly cause!
And I know, if I'll only be true
To this glorious Quest,
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest.
And the world will be better for this,
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach the unreachable stars![/ooc]
JJ doesn't like musicals, but that sums up Paladins almost perfectly to me!
Doesn't mean being a paladin of Aroden is a wise or smart choice, because you'll not have a strong network of support and most folks will regard you as something of a pitiable figure at best or a madman at worst.
To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow,
To run where the brave dare not go!
That was exactly what I thought when I first read this thread!
Hear me, heathens and wizards
And serpents of sin!
All your dastardly doings are past,
For a holy endeavor is now to begin
And virtue shall triumph at last!
I guess I'm dating myself. I know next to nothing about the Warhammer universe, but this concept also sounds similar to the Dune series by Frank Herbert, and Leto II, the God Emperor of Dune.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Emperor_of_Dune
It's hardly a coincidence, the Warhammer 40k universe is a deliberate mash-up of Dune and Tolkien with a unhealthy dose of Eighties British nihilism thrown in.
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I guess I'm dating myself. I know next to nothing about the Warhammer universe, but this concept also sounds similar to the Dune series by Frank Herbert, and Leto II, the God Emperor of Dune.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Emperor_of_Dune
It's hardly a coincidence, the Warhammer 40k universe is a deliberate mash-up of Dune and Tolkien with a unhealthy dose of Eighties British nihilism thrown in.
Best description of WH40K, ever.
In our Second Darkness game our Paladin worships Aroden and is a Warrior of the Holy Light
he has the Trait birthmark and has a pretty cool backstory so far it has been fun
Cant wait to get that game going again
Aroden's nor dead, you Blasphemers
Preach it!
Stories of my demise are greatly exaggerated!
As for your questions: Paladins are nice. The problem is just that they insist on putting a strong focus on the concept known as goodness. That gets in the way of absolute order. So they weren't really my first and finest warriors. They lacked a certain pragmatism.
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Maybe Aroden could see the details of his future rule. Maybe he decided he didn't want to do it. Or maybe he perceived it would be better if it never came to pass, and selflessly committed suicide so an era of stagnation would never come to be.
Or maybe it did work and he's passed on to an existence so advanced from out own that we can no longer perceive him!
Note that in your home game, you can totally bring Aroden back. It could even be the focus of an epic campaign. Or several.
Suggested course of events:
A band of heroes learns about the actual fate that befell the Last of the First Humans (if you want, you can let Asmodeus be behind this). Undergoing a series of epic trials, they manage to bring about his release/resurrection/return (with things like finding the exact way to do it, retrieving some powerful artefacts, and even fighting nascent archfiends to bring back the Last Azlanti).
With Aroden back in business, he promptly takes his rightful place as God-Emperor of Cheliax, displacing Asmodeus and the Thrice-Damned House of Thrune, re-annexing Andoran (or at least gaining their alliance), bringing peace to Galt (and taking it back, too), and also gaining the overlordship over the forces of Mendev when Iomedae steps back and becomes a deify servant of Aroden again. He even takes over Taldor, ending the decadent empire once and for all and declaring it part of his Greater Empire, which he calls the Divine Empire of Azlant Reborn.
With such tremendous force at his beck and call, he goes and vanquishes the Worldwound, beating back the abyssal hordes, even venturing into the Abyss to slay several nascent demon lords for committing this atrocity. He might even get to slay a full-fledged demon lord, striking a massive blow for order and also goodness.
Of course, Asmodeus, the old schemer, was planning all that, gladly giving up Cheliax if it means that the hated demons are cut down to size - and without him fearing any repercussions, and delegating even more demonic force away from him and his as the vengeful demons throw themselves against the Empire.
I asked James Jacobs whether Aroden was really dead* and he said he was really dead.
So the answer to "what can kill a god?" is The Creative Director.
*actually I didn't - I asked whether he had just got lost down the back of the couch
What can kill a god, well the other gods are NOT talking. Something killed him and in doing so ripped prophecy asunder. Not sure the normal gods can do that. It was a big enough deal that they are telling no one a single detail.
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What can kill a god, well the other gods are NOT talking. Something killed him and in doing so ripped prophecy asunder. Not sure the normal gods can do that. It was a big enough deal that they are telling no one a single detail.
Isn't Pharasma the only one that actually knows for sure?
She saw it coming at least, IIRC, but she isn't talking about it....
Of course, if dead people can be made not dead, then, presumably, so could dead gods.
No, if the soul is destroy ya can not come back. We know he is not coming back, which means he can not come back..so something really bad went down.
But do we know he is not coming back?
Imagine, a half-mad elf sorcerer determines that on of the stoned pirates in the Field of Maidens somehow knows how to return Aroden to life. He invents a spell that manages to revert them to flesh but it only works for 1 second at a time. But after centuries of effort he finally uncovers a clue.
So begins an epic quest across the cosmos to retrieve all the artefacts and bits required for a ritual an unlikely location. And so Aroden returns.
You know, I never knew Aroden had only one hand and one eye. And also looked so skeletal. Wait a moment...
;)
Yes, we know for a fact. James has stated many times he is dead and never coming back. His death is a big part of the setting and that is not changing. He isn't hidden, he is dead so dead he can never come back.
Now what can do that to a god fate had different plans for? What can kill him that dead/ what can sunder fate? what is so bad the gods will not talk?
Good questions huh.
Yes, we know for a fact. James has stated many times he is dead and never coming back. His death is a big part of the setting and that is not changing. He isn't hidden, he is dead so dead he can never come back.
Metagamer! ;P
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Actually, they haven't said anything that shuts out all possibilities other than Aroden being completely and utterly destroyed.
After all, it's said that Pharasma passed judgment on him. There had to be something of him to go somewhere. :)
(which leads back to Pharasma being more in the know on the matter than most, but she's still keeping quiet...)
Actually, they haven't said anything that shuts out all possibilities other than Aroden being completely and utterly destroyed.
After all, it's said that Pharasma passed judgment on him. There had to be something of him to go somewhere. :)
(which leads back to Pharasma being more in the know on the matter than most, but she's still keeping quiet...)
But wasn't it also said in another thread, that once Pharasma passes judgement...there is no return from the dead? That all the 'bring em back alive!' spells are before Pharasma judge's em. Unfortunately, Aroden is gone. Pharasma is being quiet. (nothin' new there with her) Prophecy is broken. But for the why's and how's of it happening, for my campaign, most just try and ignore it and move on. The god's are not talking about it. People don't like the laws of nature changing. Gods dying, prophecies broken, divine communications stopping. Best pretend it never happen and move on. Ignoring a problem one can do nothing about is always the best answer :P
Personally, I am thinking about trying something to make divination stuff for predicting future thingies nto to work as well. Including even settng specific thingies like Harrow decks an' such. Haven't doen it yet. But ponderin' it.
As for the God Emperor, I like him in his setting. But I do not think blending them is for the best with my group. My view. I am certain others in forum world would love it. It really is a tragic story over there in 40k. Too bad he is mostly dead. It would have been nice for humanity if he was still a mostly alive god.
Greg
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Aroden's nor dead, you BlasphemersPreach it!
Stories of my demise are greatly exaggerated!
As for your questions: Paladins are nice. The problem is just that they insist on putting a strong focus on the concept known as goodness. That gets in the way of absolute order. So they weren't really my first and finest warriors. They lacked a certain pragmatism.
Paladins are the closest things to Space Marines, with their immunities to fear and pestilence. It is the only way I currently see being able to create a character to mimic one, so I can use all the awesome 40k quotes in character.
/PS. There is never retreat. Only a tactical advance to the rear.
But wasn't it also said in another thread, that once Pharasma passes judgement...there is no return from the dead? That all the 'bring em back alive!' spells are before Pharasma judge's em. Unfortunately, Aroden is gone. Pharasma is being quiet. (nothin' new there with her) Prophecy is broken. But for the why's and how's of it happening, for my campaign, most just try and ignore it and move on. The god's are not talking about it. People don't like the laws of nature changing. Gods dying, prophecies broken, divine communications stopping. Best pretend it never happen and move on. Ignoring a problem one can do nothing about is always the best answer :P
Indeed once you are judged, you can not be brought back. Spells do not return those who have been judged.
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Indeed once you are judged, you can not be brought back. Spells do not return those who have been judged.But wasn't it also said in another thread, that once Pharasma passes judgement...there is no return from the dead? That all the 'bring em back alive!' spells are before Pharasma judge's em. Unfortunately, Aroden is gone. Pharasma is being quiet. (nothin' new there with her) Prophecy is broken. But for the why's and how's of it happening, for my campaign, most just try and ignore it and move on. The god's are not talking about it. People don't like the laws of nature changing. Gods dying, prophecies broken, divine communications stopping. Best pretend it never happen and move on. Ignoring a problem one can do nothing about is always the best answer :P
However, something was judged, and went somewhere. Somewhere to be found! ;)
The Great Beyond goes on about "strange vistas" that lie beyond the Great Beyond. The afterlife of the afterlife, so to speak. Sounds like an great adventure in and of itself. Adventurers trying to find Aroden to find out what did him in and what it means for Golarion...
Party: Why you so dead?
Aroden: Well.....
Party: :O
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Of course, if dead people can be made not dead, then, presumably, so could dead gods.Only if they want to though!
Which would beg the question: Why would Aroden not want to come back?
Anything that might destroy a god, may not leave anything to ressurrect. After all if the gods manage the afterlife, where is there for THEM to go if they die. The answer may be ... non existence, especially if dieties only live on through the belief of mortals.
So Pantheons can rise and fall depending on how the mortal cultures that worship them prosper... or fail to. So if a culture goes totally extinct, it's gods go with it.
This sounds pretty campaign specific... That wasn't the case in D&D, and there have been hints that such an absolute answer isn't the case in Golarion either.
To be honest, just having them be dead and leave nothing left forever sounds like it kills more adventure hooks than it creates.