Paizo Website

I just have a question (with no ill intentions toward Paizo whatsoever, merely curiousity), why doesn't this site uses more advanced HTML/CSS technology? Looking over the source code, I see very little use of CSS and use of tables (most websites have stopped using it 5+ years ago) and it's consider very basic and archaic. Or phpbb forums, which are far more advanced than this one?

Don't get me wrong, I hang around here a lot and have nothing but respect for Paizo, but it just puzzles me why wouldn't a well-standing company invest a bit more into its online presentation, since this one is a bit crude. I'm not talking about something very advanced, but this site is built on technology that's used only in basic HTML courses and I'm sure you can do better...

If I recall, I believe it was said so that it could be tied to the store directly. I just remember this topic coming up once before and there was a response if I remember correctly of something along those lines.

Between it's vulnerability to spam and viruses, I'm quite glad that Paizo doesn't use phpbb ...

Between it's vulnerability to spam and viruses, I'm quite glad that Paizo doesn't use phpbb ...

Well that's not true. I'm both a moderator on a quite large phpbb forum of my university (that's been running for 10 years now) and a administrator of another phpbb forum and other than issues of spambots which are easily resolved via safer registration process, viruses haven't ever been an issue.

There's a reason that phpbb is the most used type of forums on the internet. Even sites that don't use them, they make their own that have a far better functionality than this one. Examples would be... I don't know, Giant in the Playground forums, or Heroes of Newerth.

I'm sure redesigning the site is on Vic's to-do list.

I'm also sure Vic has a very long to-do list.

Like DM said above - having their own code means they can tie in the forums to the store (eg the Product forum) and other stuff such as RPG Superstar voting system. And likely several internal functions that we don't even know about ...

Ok, that answers the question why they don't use phpbb forums, but it doesn't adresses the issue that code they're using is pretty rudimentary.

Ok, that answers the question why they don't use phpbb forums, but it doesn't adresses the issue that code they're using is pretty rudimentary.

thats actually a feature for those of us who browse the boards at work. You can't tell from a cubicle away if i'm looking at work things or gaming things (especially if i turn off pictures)

I somehow doubt that anyone had that in mind when they were making this website. :D

But that differs from job to job, since I'm at work right now and I don't have that problem.

Rudimentary it might be, what counts is that it's functional, for me at least. Remember that the website doubles as an online store.

I somehow doubt that anyone had that in mind when they were making this website. :D

But that differs from job to job, since I'm at work right now and I don't have that problem.

That is what is used when people ask for the abilityto upload avatars though.. I think This thread is more in depth overview of why the boards are as they are - I wrote the previous entry as I was leaving for work

I'm sure redesigning the site is on Vic's to-do list.

I'm also sure Vic has a very long to-do list.

Close... it's on *Gary's* to-do list.

The site has been in continuous evolution for years, but since it mostly works, we've been focusing our development on things that have more impact than rewriting our HTML to use more CSS. Every now and then, though, we do come up with ideas for stuff that would be a lot easier with more modern HTML, and every time that happens, we get a little bit closer to the day when we pull the trigger on a major rewrite.

Every now and then, though, we do come up with ideas for stuff that would be a lot easier with more modern HTML, and every time that happens, we get a little bit closer to the day when we pull the trigger on a major rewrite.

Let me be the first to say:

"I liked the old site better, before the redesign!!"

(I'll just bump this comment when the redesign actually happens.)

Personally, I love the fact that the message boards do not have signatures, banners, smiley faces and custom avatars. They just clutter things up and provide no real benefit. When a poster's signature is bigger than their post, that's a waste of space.

Now, the thing I would like most would be improved searching, but having some idea as to how difficult/complex/pain-in-the-butt it can be to do search well, I'm happy with things the way they are.

IM/Private messaging? Nice to have but I am quite happy without it.

The clean look and lack of clutter is one of my favorite things about this site.

Rudimentary it might be, what counts is that it's functional, for me at least.

You can't look at it that way. Websites are also an online presentation of the company, and they matter much. It's also advertising - the more sophisticated it is, it will have more hits, the more hits it have, it will appear more often on google, the more it appears on google, the more people come here etc etc. There's a whole field of study dedicated just to google trends and the effects that the website has on marketing success of the company.

Remember that the website doubles as an online store.

It's not the only one of the kind. Lots of websites do that.

thats actually a feature for those of us who browse the boards at work. You can't tell from a cubicle away if i'm looking at work things or gaming things (especially if i turn off pictures)

Two thumbs up!

How do you switch off the images? That would make my work-skiving complete!

Gorbacz wrote:

Rudimentary it might be, what counts is that it's functional, for me at least.

You can't look at it that way.

[nitpick]Quite obviously he can.[/nitpick] :-) But I see what you mean. OTOH, I still think that pathfinder is niche enough that Google ranks don´t count that much, rather customers will direct their browsers at paizo.com right away. But of course, I might be dead wrong there.

Stefan

OTOH, I still think that pathfinder is niche enough that Google ranks don´t count that much, rather customers will direct their browsers at paizo.com right away.

I study those things in college and perhaps Paizo chose to not matter that much to THEM (though I don't see why wouldn't it, not investing in website is opportunity cost), but I know for a fact that it can matter tremendously.

Gorbacz wrote:

Rudimentary it might be, what counts is that it's functional, for me at least.

You can't look at it that way. Websites are also an online presentation of the company, and they matter much. It's also advertising - the more sophisticated it is, it will have more hits, the more hits it have, it will appear more often on google, the more it appears on google, the more people come here etc etc. There's a whole field of study dedicated just to google trends and the effects that the website has on marketing success of the company.

Quote:

Remember that the website doubles as an online store.

It's not the only one of the kind. Lots of websites do that.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by sophisticated?

From my experience it doesn't really matter how good something looks or how sophisticated the coding is if it doesn't provide a reason for people to stick around. It has to do something that will make people want to stick around in order for it to even be worth the effort of setting up let alone maintaining.

Look at Facebook (and MySpace before that). It is as generic and boring looking as you get, is awkwardly laid out and difficult to use but people love it (I have no idea why but they do).

That said, no matter what they do I will probably always come back to this site as long as they don't start using Flash or Silverlight (#1 reason why web pages today load just as fast as they did 10 years ago).

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by sophisticated?

Advanced. Up to date with current technologies. On par with other companies of the same type. Look at White Wolf, for example, or even Wizards of the Coast (I feel dirty just by comparing them to Paizo, but can't argue with their design). Both have their own online stores and forums. And to someone new to the game who doesn't know the first difference between D&D and PF, first impression matters much.

Or even, to lesser extent, check out the Giant in the Playground site. It, too, has a simple design, its online store.

It doesn't have to use some advanced coding or use Ajax, Jscript etc, but layout is also pretty basic. Also, more sophisticated technologies are easier to implement than older. Homepage of white wolf website has about 50 lines of code, whereas paizo has 3500 (for comparison, WotC has about 1000), because it was built using tables and lists, which means that any changes are going to take a really long time.

You can't look at it that way. Websites are also an online presentation of the company, and they matter much. It's also advertising - the more sophisticated it is, it will have more hits, the more hits it have, it will appear more often on google, the more it appears on google, the more people come here etc etc. There's a whole field of study dedicated just to google trends and the effects that the website has on marketing success of the company.

Most of our customers aren't peeking at the source code for the website. They care if it looks right and works right, and for those things the website does its job. Vic is correct when he says (and not just because he's the boss) that we'd love to do a major rewrite at some point, but there isn't really anything wrong with using older technology if it works. Being fancy, on its own, does not increase traffic.

Unless by "more sophisticated" you mean SEO, which is is way below "Works" and "Looks Good" on our list of priorities.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by sophisticated?

Advanced. Up to date with current technologies. On par with other companies of the same type. Look at White Wolf, for example, or even Wizards of the Coast (I feel dirty just by comparing them to Paizo, but can't argue with their design). Both have their own online stores and forums. And to someone new to the game who doesn't know the first difference between D&D and PF, first impression matters much.

I haven't checked White Wolf, but WOTC's website is a lot harder to navigate for me than paizo's and their message boards have way too much moving graphics and ads for my liking.

yes more 'modern' sites like wizards will have more hits, but they violate the '3 click rule' of human-computer interaction to do it (basically that you should be able to get to any page on the site you want want in 3 clicks or less, otherwise you loose a percentage of users for each additional click, a search only counts as one click) It took me 4 'clicks' to get to forums on their site, which means they get 3 more hits to the webpages and for google to count than Paizo's 1 click... but a certain percentage of users will be frustrated when trying to find the forums and go elsewhere (its been a few years since I took that class so I don't know the actual statistics off hand)

and try finding a 3.0 painting article on WotC site... they're there, but in the past knowing the title of some of their webarticles still mean 10-12 clicks before you get to the actual article.

also the forums in those other pages are not as integrated into the store as it is in Paizo's case. (Wizard's doesn't even have a web store anymore, I thin that went away years ago)

Unless by "more sophisticated" you mean SEO, which is is way below "Works" and "Looks Good" on our list of priorities.

I mean everything that would bring the website shoulder to shoulder with how websites look today. This one has the looks and the technology of a site that was made 10 years ago. Don't get me wrong, I love Pathfinder and all that your company stands for, just every time I log on here, I am a little disappointed in what I see. I am a web developer, so those things irk me more than an average customer, I guess. :D

and try finding a 3.0 painting article on WotC site... they're there, but in the past knowing the title of some of their webarticles still mean 10-12 clicks before you get to the actual article.

That has more to do with WotC trying to erase every notion that 3.0/3.5 ever existed than to their website. :D

Actually, I suspect Googlebot has an easier time digesting our site than more "modern" sites.

I'd just like to mention that one of the positives, for me, is that Paizo's website is NOT yet another tacky looking phpBB (and they all look tacky) kludged together with osCommerce and a generic CMS.

Can you customize all of these into a decent looking website?

Sure.

Paizo's layout is unique, it looks good, it's easy on the eyes, and it's not a horribly convoluted process.

It's pretty easily navigable, and the fact that it's NOT some generic software that everyone else is using is refreshing.

As another developer in charge of maintaining multiple web applications created over 10 years ago, I understand both sides of this issue. I desperately want to update our technology - but from a corporate perspective, if it fits your needs, it's a relatively low priority to update.

we're in a niche business where SEO is of limited usefulness (not zero, but maybe not worth the cost of upgrading yet), and other projects take precedence over "treading water" to upgrade the back end technologies. Some things are finally going to force us to take that leap - and it's more painful because it was put off for so long, no doubt - but part of running a business well is balancing disparate priorities as profitably as possible. :)

I mean everything that would bring the website shoulder to shoulder with how websites look today. This one has the looks and the technology of a site that was made 10 years ago. Don't get me wrong, I love Pathfinder and all that your company stands for, just every time I log on here, I am a little disappointed in what I see.

Don't know. If up-to-date, on par, advanced, etc. means something eye-candy and full of features no-one really uses (well, maybe a private messaging system, but only maybe), thanks but no thanks.

I don't mean to be snarky or antagonistic, but as I usually browse a bunch of forums based on vbulletin and phpbb full of smileys, ranking/postcount/status features, sig pictures and so on that just clutter the overall usability of the pages, I find that the clean and simple Paizo boards are refreshing in comparison.

Even if based on outdated technology, these boards are more crunch and less fluff than a lot of other places. To me, simpler is better.

Personally, I love the fact that the message boards do not have signatures, banners, smiley faces and custom avatars. They just clutter things up and provide no real benefit. When a poster's signature is bigger than their post, that's a waste of space.

Now, the thing I would like most would be improved searching, but having some idea as to how difficult/complex/pain-in-the-butt it can be to do search well, I'm happy with things the way they are.

IM/Private messaging? Nice to have but I am quite happy without it.

The clean look and lack of clutter is one of my favorite things about this site.

I totally agree.

The only really big thing I miss that I wish the forums had, was a way to PM people.

I´m fine with the layout as it is. As others have commented, other boards have tons of features - most of them are annoying to me if not an outright PITA. No sigs, no info nobody really needs, just a clean layout, black on white text (I hate websites with black backgrounds and white text - or even red text), and that´s it. I don´t need any animations and stuff, less is more to me in website design. (This obviously isn´t true for a webdesigners own homepage, though)

Stefan

This isn't a matter of modernizing for modernization's sake. It's not a matter of having a new layout (although it WOULD be cool).

Using current html and css practices would reduce the bandwidth used, it would make changing or updating features significantly easier and reduce Gary and Ross' inpage workload, and it'd make updates with cool features easier for them, which all of us would benefit from.

This isn't about having overdone dropshadows and cool js effects at all as I see it.

The initial investment in time for Paizo may seem high, but down the road the benefits are excellent (hey that wasted bandwidth adds up--it's wasted electrons all of it).

With increasing support for html5 and css3 I think the time is coming soon... maybe very soon... and I'm guessing that the IT ninja death squads at Paizo are well aware of this.

Will it include the ability to reach through the screen, at the first person I see with a flashing sig, and strangle them with my bare hands?

Will it include the ability to reach through the screen, at the first person I see with a flashing sig, and strangle them with my bare hands?

<straight-face>Yes.</straight-face>

If up-to-date, on par, advanced, etc. means something eye-candy and full of features no-one really uses...thanks but no thanks.

<snip>

To me, simpler is better.

I´m fine with the layout as it is. As others have commented, other boards have tons of features - most of them are annoying to me if not an outright PITA.

For what it's worth, I agree. It's not just web design; I feel the same way about software design in general. So many companies have the mentality of "We gotta give 'em more bells and whistles and features no one wants, even if it makes the interface more complicated, increases the bugs in our system, and stops working altogether for half our users!" No thanks. This website - AS IT IS - is what made me a Paizo fan.

FYI, most of the coding modernization being requested by the OP do not in any way imply changes that will be very visible to the end user (other than changing to non-proprietary software would change the forum quite a bit). They're differences in the way the back end is coded, differences in the method used to generate the look you see today. Making the changes suggested would not necessitate any changes you see on the front end as end users (except possibly less bandwidth used, greater exposure on search engines like google, etc.). It would, however, probably require a lot of work (dreading my own imminent upgrade workload...).

I spent a couple months working on an upgrade to an important internal website at my company. Most end users didn't even realize a change had been made - but it took a huge and unnecessary load off of our database servers - a load that was finally impacting front end service on other applications enough that I got permission to make it more efficient.

If the engine behind a website is modernized, most of the time the website itself gets modified as well. I´m all for a sleek, fast, and stable website, and would think that a technical update is probably a good idea, if the performance gets better. I´m not keen on a redesign, as pointed out above. Especially messageboards are often cluttered and full of useless stuff, like sigs. (I think the personal pages that paizo offers are a better solution for having that kind of information - once on the page, not with every post.)

Stefan

Jess is right... a revamp doesn't mean that a lot of stuff would necessarily change.

The messageboard design features that people have mentioned that they like—they're that way because we like them too. We have no interest in adding sigs or animated smilies or anything of that nature.

Some example of things that we could do: The "new post" form could be tweaked to allow you to more easily use bold, italics, and hyperlinks—the same things you can already do, but with a less arcane interface. We could also increase your ability to customize certain things more to your liking, such as showing or hiding sections of the main layout, or letting you choose whether the store blog or the paizo blog is displayed when you come to the front page. We could upgrade those three little ad blocks under the blog on the front page to combine images and text in more appealing, more dynamic, and, frankly, more useful ways.... that's the sort of thing we're talking about.

Some example of things that we could do: The "new post" form could be tweaked to allow you to more easily use bold, italics, and hyperlinks—the same things you can already do, but with a less arcane interface. We could also increase your ability to customize certain things more to your liking, such as showing or hiding sections of the main layout, or letting you choose whether the store blog or the paizo blog is displayed when you come to the front page.

That's what I had in mind when I mentioned phpbb. I don't understand the angst against php boards, but whatever, it wouldn't be where it is if people don't use it. Additional features that I'd like to see is quick reply option and maybe, dare I say, icons representing new posts in topics. Or a different page that displays all post since last login. I could make a list of the things that improved the funcionality of forums (without adding smiley faces etc), but if you're already thinking along those lines, it's unnecessary.

Whew! It appears we can get the best of both worlds someday with an upgrade in the back end. Less bandwidth hogging but still the same, elegant, clean look.

Add me to the camp that does not want to see any changes in the forum look. I love it the way it is now.

Whew! It appears we can get the best of both worlds someday with an upgrade in the back end. Less bandwidth hogging but still the same, elegant, clean look.

Add me to the camp that does not want to see any changes in the forum look. I love it the way it is now.

+1

I like the fact the text wraps around the avatars. and does not have an empty column I can read more that way on long posts and have to scroll less. Other forums do not do that I visit. Animated smilies make it less clear what the person is saying to me.

I still do not get the point of a quick reply button. I really want to understand why.

Not quick reply button, quick reply option.

That means that this window in which you type messages appears on the end of every topic and don't have to open another window to type replies.

Not quick reply button, quick reply option.

That means that this window in which you type messages appears on the end of every topic and don't have to open another window to type replies.

Additionally, it doesn't typically auto-quote.

I'll assume you're refering to the quick reply option in phpbb forums, and yes, it doesn't automatically quotes (but it can be set easily), but since this is a custom forum which doesn't use phpbb, I don't understand what you're suggesting.

1. I <3 Paizo, something the line next to my nick should tell you :>
2. I hate the Paizo site.

I won't talk so much about the first point, since that should be pretty obvious.

I'll mention a few points that makes me rage about the site though.

- It is slow. Very slow. Almost to the point where I can't be bothered to browse it, almost. I suspect that less interested people will be turned away because it is as slow as it is. (in fact: I know many of my friends in my gaming group don't bother with paizo.com - simply because it is slooow)

I don't know if this is spesific to me and mine (I live in Norway) but I suspect it isn't.

- The search-engine is bad.
I do most of my shopping by searches, I usually know what I'm looking for, and that's what I want.

I've found that it is easyer to go to google and use site:paiz.com <search> then it is to use Paizo's own search.

- The messageboards.
While I see, and support the need for custom messageboard-software, I think it could be handled better.
As they are today, it is hard to find the messageboard you're looking for, and posting in the correct one is just as difficult.

(somthing you paizonians should have noticed by now, I see all the topics you're moving around..)

Of course the costs associated with revamping alot, are big. And if that interfares with you guys beeing able to produce good content for us custumers, I urge you to ignore my post!
In the end, for me as a customer I don't really care what the site looks like. As long as I get my monthly fix it's really not that important to me.

That beeing said, I would certainly use parts of the site more if it was a bit easyer. Especially the forums.

(For inspiration: http://vnboards.ign.com )

Oh, and to leave on a positive note. I really like the actual buying process on paizo. From shopping cart to finished order is smooth, easy and well thought out :)

Personally, I love the fact that the message boards do not have signatures, banners, smiley faces and custom avatars. They just clutter things up and provide no real benefit. When a poster's signature is bigger than their post, that's a waste of space.

Now, the thing I would like most would be improved searching, but having some idea as to how difficult/complex/pain-in-the-butt it can be to do search well, I'm happy with things the way they are.

IM/Private messaging? Nice to have but I am quite happy without it.

The clean look and lack of clutter is one of my favorite things about this site.

Actually I like smilies. They help to convey tone of voice, and could have ended quiet a few arguments before they began. The other things are nice, but I have learned to live without them.

As a webhead/e-learning specialist/teacher of web development...

I like the Paizo site :)

Good points include:

• Clean visual design
  
• Ease of navigation
  
• Multiple routes to find things (I don't have to guess where the webmaster thinks I should look for something, I can follow my own logic and it's likely I'll get there)
  
• Good user interface
  

In writing a site, you need to consider your intended audience. How will you attract them to the site in the first place? What do you want them to do whilst there? How do you ensure they'll keep coming back?

As for the forums, they are nice and straightforward, and do the job.

I'd like to be able to post an image, rather than having to place a link to open a second window to wherever it is... now if you upload an image to someone's forum, it takes up their webspace and bandwidth, so I understand why you don't allow that, but being able to put an <img src="wherever"> and have the actual picture appear is nice, especially when running a game.

As has been mentioned, a PM function would be nice. But the multiple aliases are nice, and if I really, really want a sig I can type it in. I don't care for avatars anyway, so don't miss that I cannot upload my own - but can see why those who like them might like to do so.

I could go on... but I have some course materials to write so I'd better stop wibbling and get coding!

Do you really want to see a nightmare of bad design, bad usability, worse interface of all time?
www.herogames.com
I used to go there regularly but since the new webmaster came in, I cannot even find products to buy.
Try.

- It is slow. Very slow. Almost to the point where I can't be bothered to browse it, almost. I suspect that less interested people will be turned away because it is as slow as it is. (in fact: I know many of my friends in my gaming group don't bother with paizo.com - simply because it is slooow)

I don't know if this is spesific to me and mine (I live in Norway) but I suspect it isn't.

Occasionally, something will be slow, which Gary fixes pretty quickly.

Overall, the site is quite snappy.

Kellendil wrote:

- It is slow. Very slow. Almost to the point where I can't be bothered to browse it, almost. I suspect that less interested people will be turned away because it is as slow as it is. (in fact: I know many of my friends in my gaming group don't bother with paizo.com - simply because it is slooow)

I don't know if this is spesific to me and mine (I live in Norway) but I suspect it isn't.

Occasionally, something will be slow, which Gary fixes pretty quickly.

Overall, the site is quite snappy.

Kellendil - Yeah at times the site is slow. Most of the time for me it is fine but some days it is ungodly slow. Normally as Brian said it gets fixed pretty quickly, though sometimes I think it is due to a bunch of people once a month DownLoading their paizo products makes it slow. Hmm does that mean the site is female? What some one else was going to say so i just beat you to it.