Creating Intelligent Items


Rules Questions


What is the crafter's minimum level?

Can any magical item be made with intelligence?

What are the material components? A living person? A soul?

Can an intelligent item be given an attack spell? And if so how does it attack with it (i.e. Ray of Frost, DC 10 Dex?)


a) There isn't one.
b) Any permanent magic item, within reason.
c) It doesn't say; ask your GM. I wouldn't require human sacrifice, personally.
d) Yes, and good question. :-)

(All answers are my interpretation, of course.)


Had an intelligent sword once that was able to use mass inflict light wounds at will, but only against its deity's sworn enemies. No problem with hit rolls there though.

I would assume either a Dex of 10 and a bonus for its small size, or an ability to use one of its mental stats to affect ranged attacks (like the Hand of the Apprentice using Intelligence for targeting).


harmor wrote:
What is the crafter's minimum level?

I don't believe I have ever seen rules for crafting intelligent items, in any edition of D&D including Pathfinder. I'm sure somebody has tackled it somewhere, maybe in some 3rd party material, but I haven't seen it.

harmor wrote:
Can any magical item be made with intelligence?

Evidently somebody can do it, since they exist. But I guess it's just one of those "Hey, yeah, we used to know how, back in ancient times, but nobody today is smart enough to have any clue how it's done" things. You know, like artifacts.

Me, I've never liked that answer. That's like saying "Hey, yeah, we used to smelt copper and tin together to make bronze, but since this newfangled steel was invented, nobody remembers how to make bronze anymore".

Only it's worse, because the stuff we "forgot how to do" in D&D is better than the stuff we remember. As if somehow everyone was so much smarter a thousand years ago than they are today, and they never wrote anything down, and nobody today could just go ask an old elf or a djinn or a demon to fill in the missing gaps, or whatever.

harmor wrote:
What are the material components? A living person? A soul?

Go ask an old elf, or a djinn, or a demon...

No, I'm not trying to be snarky. Maybe this is a perfect chance for the DM to come up with something fascinating, turn it into an adventure hook, and let your players go find something out.

harmor wrote:
Can an intelligent item be given an attack spell? And if so how does it attack with it (i.e. Ray of Frost, DC 10 Dex?)

Yes it can, but usually, intelligent items don't do stuff on their own. So, if you give it Ray of Frost, then the user (by that I mean the guy who is holding the sword) would activate the Ray when he wants to. In which case, he is effectively using a wand of Ray of Frost, more or less. His own ranged attack would be the deciding factor.

If you really want the weapon to use it's own magic, then I might suggest that the weapon's CHA is probably the way to go, instead of DEX. Think of it like an item version of a Sorcerer, using magic without studying it or understanding it. And since it has no DEX, CHA is a good substitute. And its caster level could be its EGO...

(It's not like anyone will say you're doing it wrong, since there are no rules for it)

One caviat: beware of giving the weapon control over its own powers. You'll end up with a player who has two sets of actions, his own, and his weapon's. It could get suddenly overpowering (though Ray of Frost seems safe enough, once you open this can of bees, who knows what the next intelligent item will be capable of).

(yes, I said "can of bees" because I don't think a can of worms is really all that bad. Open a can of worms, you go "ew, ick, worms" and then throw it away. But open a can of bees, and you're probably going to get stung. Maybe stung lots. It's much worse.)


From the intelligent items section:

"Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Intelligent items often have the ability to illuminate their surroundings at will (as magic weapons do); many cannot see otherwise.

Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner's turn in the initiative order."

So treat them as constructs with a null stat in STR, DEX and CON. This means that they have an effective bonus of + 0 on each of those.


I dont know if this is the game busting thing I think it might be. If it is I advise against doing it. If you have an intelligent item and give it the ability to use the skill "Use Magic Device" then you can make an item that can use wands and such. Imagine a character with say 8 intelligent magic items that can do this and they have high CL wands of a spell like Fireball or Hammer of Righteousness. that is like 8 of those spells a round.

Be careful to avoid letting this happen in your games.


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Personally, I like the idea of an intelligent Blessed Book, one with Spellcraft and Know: Arcane. Then it could criticize my handwriting while I was copying spells.


DM_Blake wrote:


I don't believe I have ever seen rules for crafting intelligent items, in any edition of D&D including Pathfinder. I'm sure somebody has tackled it somewhere, maybe in some 3rd party material, but I haven't seen it.

Take a look through the 3.5 DMG or PFRPG Core Rulbook some time, then.

Liberty's Edge

Or check here for a pretty good start:

Intelligent Items.

Magic Item Creation.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In v3.5 you had to be 15th-level before you could create intelligent magical items, but no such rule exists in Pathfinder to my knowledge. Still, I wouldn't put them into your game prior to that level simply as a rule of thumb (they really are powerful).

On another note, a long time ago I made a fun intelligent item in the form of a shield guardian controlling amulet:

Berio (an Elven term meaning “to protect”) is the name of the intelligent magical amulet that the wizard Angol uses to maintain control over his shield guardian, and though the golem itself is often referred to as “Berio” as well, it does not truly possess a name of its own. The amulet, Berio, is actually a small fragment of Angol’s own soul placed into a decorative adamantine necklace from which hangs a flawless emerald.

Since Berio is a splinter of Angol’s own personality, the two share many of the same goals (namely the acquisition of magical lore). Even so, like all intelligent items, Berio is absolutely true to his alignment (neutral) so conflicts nevertheless do arise with his creator on rare occasions (this usually occurs when Berio wishes to press onwards towards obtaining magical lore while Angol holds back, knowing better of the dangers that may lay ahead). When these rare conflicts do occur, they are usually brief as Angol has long ago become a master of rationalizing his actions to his magical servant.

Berio can control the shield guardian as though he possessed the golem’s amulet himself (since he is the amulet). His control of the golem, however, is always superseded by whoever might be wearing him at the time. Nevertheless, Berio despises anyone who does not share the same passionate drive for acquiring magical lore and is quick to turn on such wearers if they do not possess a strong will. Berio may even go so far as to order the golem to kill his wearer before said wearer becomes aware of their ability to control the golem. Regardless of whether or not Berio and his wearer get along, Berio bestows one negative level upon any non-neutral character who dons him. This negative level cannot be removed by any means short of discarding Berio.
Should Berio be separated from his master, Angol, for any reason, he does everything within his power to find his way back, even if it means having the golem wear him around its neck as they search for their lost master.

The amulet, Berio, possesses the following stats: AL N; Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10; Empathy and speech; 60 ft. darkvision and hearing; May use magic aura on self at will; Ego score 5.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:


Evidently somebody can do it, since they exist. But I guess it's just one of those "Hey, yeah, we used to know how, back in ancient times, but nobody today is smart enough to have any clue how it's done" things. You know, like artifacts.

Me, I've never liked that answer. That's like saying "Hey, yeah, we used to smelt copper and tin together to make bronze, but since this newfangled steel was invented, nobody remembers how to make bronze anymore".

You may not like the answer, but historically that's happened quite often in Earth's history. Before the advent of cheap and ready communications, there were quite a few societies that came up with significant advances which died with them, the Incas, the Egyptians, with there various construction techniques, lighter than air flight centuries before the Europeans, and a whole ton of knowledge was lost with the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Combined with the fall of the Roman Empire and the eclipse of classical civilisation, we easily lost a thousand years worth of progress.


Ravingdork wrote:
In v3.5 you had to be 15th-level before you could create intelligent magical items, but no such rule exists in Pathfinder to my knowledge. Still, I wouldn't put them into your game prior to that level simply as a rule of thumb (they really are powerful).

I'd completely disagree with that... You aren't getting anything free when you make an intelligent item, you have to cough up the gold to get abilities for it (and each of it's stats and communication methods). And we aren't talking pocket change for any of the really useful abilities. The cost alone make a basic intelligent item with no "extra" abilities difficult to aquire at low levels and the character really isn't gaining anything from it at that point. If the character is going to be pouring all their money into an intelligent item it should be powerful but there are many more more utilitarian and useful things to spend that much money on at the same time. If a low level character can afford to make an intelligent item and wants one, let them do it, it will be one of the few things you probably won't need to worry about at those levels. At best without the money to give it a bunch of nifty abilities, it's like a really limited familiar.


LazarX wrote:
You may not like the answer, but historically that's happened quite often in Earth's history. Before the advent of cheap and ready communications, there were quite a few societies that came up with significant advances which died with them, the Incas, the Egyptians, with there various construction techniques, lighter than air flight centuries before the Europeans, and a whole ton of knowledge was lost with the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Combined with the fall of the Roman Empire and the eclipse of classical civilisation, we easily lost a thousand years worth of progress.

This is all quite true.

However, the real history of our world lacks many that are not lacking in D&D (etc.).

For example: immortal races, and races that live for extremely long time. Would the loss of the Library of Alexandria have been such a big deal if there had been a city full of 1,000 year old elves down the road, many of whom had been learning and studying and even teaching all tht knowldedge for centuries, all snugly in their non-incinerated heads?

Another example: outsider races. Demons, devels, djinn, archons, and numerous others. Sure, they're not always helpful to the ordinary mortal artificer, but they can be begged, bribed, bargained, or coerced into coughing up all kinds of knowlege tht mortals might have forgotten, or might have never known.

Another example: gods. At least in D&D, gods are real, tangible, and willing to meddle. Surely they would see a benefit making sure their chosen faithful had the means to make some of these "forgotten" items so that they could be wielded in the mortal struggles for divine superiority.

And a simpler example: In the ancient times of which you speak, pretty much everyone was illiterate. Less than 1% of the earth's population was literate. Passing information on using written language was rare. So when it was done, a tragedy like Alexandria was truly a tragedy since such libraries didn't exist on every street corner. Not even one in every city. Not even one in every country. It was a huge loss. But in D&D (etc.) everyone is literate except barbarians. Heck, wizards cannot even function without literacy. And wizards have been working that way since time immemorial. It strikes me as counter-intuitive to assume a great and powerful wizard researches the means to make a mighty magical artifact that will literally take him years to build, but he doesn't write it down. It's even more counter-intuitive to assume that every wizard who has ever done this (and there are potentially countless intelligent items, minor artifacts, and greater artifacts just in "our" world alone) has failed to write it down, or in every single case those wizards' libraries have been burned to the ground ala Alexandria.

And even if all the above is impossible, even if none of the elves, dragons, illithids, or whatever, wish to share their lore, even if no outsider race is forthcoming to mortal artificers, even if the gods themselves choose to wiithold all that they know, and if barbarians have burned every wizard library to ash, there are still divination spells, and if all else fails, powerful wizards could simply wish to know how to make these things.

Scarab Sages

Hmm... alternatively, maybe the gods specifically prohibited the creation of intelligent magic items excepting for very specific circumstances because they saw dangers in allowing mortals to make weapons powerful enough to hurt them. Or that intelligent magic items could theoretically get the skills to craft magic items that were more intelligent than themselves, and that this mess of crafting would eventually lead to a super intelligent super powerful weapon that would kill all of them.

Best to nip that in the bud early :p


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
In v3.5 you had to be 15th-level before you could create intelligent magical items, but no such rule exists in Pathfinder to my knowledge. Still, I wouldn't put them into your game prior to that level simply as a rule of thumb (they really are powerful).
I'd completely disagree with that... You aren't getting anything free when you make an intelligent item, you have to cough up the gold to get abilities for it (and each of it's stats and communication methods). And we aren't talking pocket change for any of the really useful abilities. The cost alone make a basic intelligent item with no "extra" abilities difficult to aquire at low levels and the character really isn't gaining anything from it at that point. If the character is going to be pouring all their money into an intelligent item it should be powerful but there are many more more utilitarian and useful things to spend that much money on at the same time. If a low level character can afford to make an intelligent item and wants one, let them do it, it will be one of the few things you probably won't need to worry about at those levels. At best without the money to give it a bunch of nifty abilities, it's like a really limited familiar.

Making a basic intelligent item is peanuts for most characters. Remember, the costs listed are market price. You only pay half that when making it yourself. Considering they get all their own actions and can (sometimes) do interesting things like cast spells or make Perception checks makes many of the current prices too cheap I think,

Dark Archive

DM_Blake wrote:
Spoiler:
LazarX wrote:
You may not like the answer, but historically that's happened quite often in Earth's history. Before the advent of cheap and ready communications, there were quite a few societies that came up with significant advances which died with them, the Incas, the Egyptians, with there various construction techniques, lighter than air flight centuries before the Europeans, and a whole ton of knowledge was lost with the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Combined with the fall of the Roman Empire and the eclipse of classical civilisation, we easily lost a thousand years worth of progress.

This is all quite true.

However, the real history of our world lacks many that are not lacking in D&D (etc.).

For example: immortal races, and races that live for extremely long time. Would the loss of the Library of Alexandria have been such a big deal if there had been a city full of 1,000 year old elves down the road, many of whom had been learning and studying and even teaching all tht knowldedge for centuries, all snugly in their non-incinerated heads?

Another example: outsider races. Demons, devels, djinn, archons, and numerous others. Sure, they're not always helpful to the ordinary mortal artificer, but they can be begged, bribed, bargained, or coerced into coughing up all kinds of knowlege tht mortals might have forgotten, or might have never known.

Another example: gods. At least in D&D, gods are real, tangible, and willing to meddle. Surely they would see a benefit making sure their chosen faithful had the means to make some of these "forgotten" items so that they could be wielded in the mortal struggles for divine superiority.

And a simpler example: In the ancient times of which you speak, pretty much everyone was illiterate. Less than 1% of the earth's population was literate. Passing information on using written language was rare. So when it was done, a tragedy like Alexandria was truly a tragedy since such libraries didn't exist on every street corner. Not even one in...

See, I use a bunch of what you said for reasons that the knowledge might be missing. Many of the races have warred with each other and cities may have been destroyed in the past. Their knowledge might be scattered to the four corners.

As for the Wizards who figured it out, well Wizards are a hidden lot, they are not going to share their hard-earned research with each other. No reason to. If they do share it, they may become less powerful. Or they will share it, but only if the PC has something to trade that the wizard cannot get.

Do you really want to know what an extra-planer might want for that knowledge? In deeds done, souls lost, and sacrifices. Gods fall into this range too, they might just have bigger wants.

Basically you just listed off a half dozen plot hooks for a DM with a player who wants to figure out how to craft an intelligent magic item.


Happler wrote:
As for the Wizards who figured it out, well Wizards are a hidden lot, they are not going to share their hard-earned research with each other. No reason to. If they do share it, they may become less powerful. Or they will share it, but only if the PC has something to trade that the wizard cannot get.

Wizards take apprentices all the time. Powerful wizards prey on weaker wizards, killing them and taking their libraries. Adventurers and villains alike are known to plunder wizard libraries, often selling the pludner to the highest bidder.

There are lots of artifacts. Countless artifacts. Somebody somewhere made these things, and it's a sucker bet to assume that everyone who ever figured it out just died without that knowledge ever finding its way into anybody's hands.

Happler wrote:
Do you really want to know what an extra-planer might want for that knowledge? In deeds done, souls lost, and sacrifices. Gods fall into this range too, they might just have bigger wants.

And yet the lore is filled with people who have made just such bargains. Sure the price is stiff. Who in their right mind would sell their soul to a demon in return for a few mortal years of power and happiness?

Yet, it gets done.

And some of the worst villains don't even bargain with their own souls. "Oh great mighty Asmodeus, I will strike dead a hundred paladins in your name if you will but teach me the secret to crafting a staff of the magi!"

Happler wrote:
Basically you just listed off a half dozen plot hooks for a DM with a player who wants to figure out how to craft an intelligent magic item.

Right on the money!

But don't forget, for every player who wants to use these half-dozen plot hooks, there are thousands of NPCs in the world who want the same thing.

Let's see, what is "thousands" multiplied by "half-dozen"? I'm not sure, but I think it's a lot. At least a few of them, somewhere, must have figured some of this stuff out, right?

I'm not disagreeing or arguing with you. I AM arguing with the rulebook. All I am saying is that it's a big world out there, with lots of powerful NPCs, beings, and creatures in it. And it's an even bigger multiverse with infinitely more NPCs, beings, and creatures in it. It's way too big a multiverse to just handwave it and say "Awww, shucks, nobody reamembers how to make ANY of this stuff."

Which is why I've never liked the RAW that says just that very thing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:

[ But in D&D (etc.) everyone is literate except barbarians. Heck, wizards cannot even function without literacy. And wizards have been working that way since time immemorial. It strikes me as counter-intuitive to assume a great and powerful wizard researches the means to make a mighty magical artifact that will literally take him years to build, but he doesn't write it down. It's even more counter-intuitive to assume that every wizard who has ever done this (and there are potentially countless intelligent items, minor artifacts, and greater artifacts just in "our" world alone) has failed to write it down, or in every single case those wizards' libraries have been burned to the ground ala Alexandria.

And even if all the above is impossible, even if none of the elves, dragons, illithids, or whatever, wish to share their lore, even if no outsider race is forthcoming to mortal artificers, even if the gods themselves choose to wiithold all that they know, and if barbarians have burned every wizard library to ash, there are still divination spells, and if all else fails, powerful wizards could simply wish to know how to make these things.

One it's not "Everyone" it's all of the adventuring classes which are literate save for the Barbarian. PC's by thier nature can not be used to judge the average.

As for Wizards you forget one basic quality that almost all of them (NPC wise) share. They're covetous of each other's secrets and fiercely protective of thier own... in other words for the most part they don't share. The brightest of them live in thier own little towers and frequently die alone, thier homes ransacked by people who have little interest in spreading (or in most cases even preserving) knowledge themselves.

The thing is you like me have grown up in societies where knowledge spreads around not only easily but virally. In most AD+D worlds communication still travels by donkey when it travels at all.

Dark Archive

DM_Blake wrote:

Right on the money!

But don't forget, for every player who wants to use these half-dozen plot hooks, there are thousands of NPCs in the world who want the same thing.

Let's see, what is "thousands" multiplied by "half-dozen"? I'm not sure, but I think it's a lot. At least a few of them, somewhere, must have figured some of this stuff out, right?

I'm not disagreeing or...

Ahh that is where we differ. you view the PC's as average members of the world, while I view the PC's as different. In my worlds, NPC's over level 10 are rare (most people do not need to go that far), while the number who are over level 15 is very rare. I view it as most people would not have the experience and history that would push them up to the levels to make use out of those plot hooks, and those that do are notable people in the history of the land, either great heroes or great villains.


Ravingdork wrote:


Making a basic intelligent item is peanuts for most characters. Remember, the costs listed are market price. You only pay half that when making it yourself. Considering they get all their own actions and can (sometimes) do interesting things like cast spells or make Perception checks makes many of the current prices too cheap I think,

If by most characters you mean characters that have at least hundreds if not multiple thousands of gold to spend on top of regular adventuring gear then yeah I guess you could call it peanuts. Lower level characters don't have that though, even mid level characters end up in a cash bind a lot of the time. Gear is more often than not found and is useful to a character so it becomes "theirs", adventures rarely have just liquid cash laying around every encounter that gets divied up among the group. That gear is meant to put the group at certain wealth levels, if they sell it they take a hit of 50%. If a character is a crafter it is at least a fair trade. Even with crafting the item, you still need to pay for the base item, everthing you put towards the "intelligent" aspect is money that could have been used for something else that would likely be more useful in any given situation.

Take the flat 500 gold added to some certain magic item to make it intelligent with 10 stats and empathy, you're "basic" intelligent item. I could have bought two handfuls of potions for that with various effects. Yeah it is an entity that could make a perception roll, but it doesn't have any stat bonus and it doesn't have any skill ranks (unless you buy them, each stat and each skill)... Statistically what are the chances of it making a check that any of the PC's missed? Skills don't auto succeed on a 20... If that was what you wanted it would be cheaper to get a hireling and offer double the going rate per day for hazard pay as at least they would have skills and you still wouldn't come close to what it cost for the magic item AND they could vocalize what the hell they saw unlike the empathic item. You go ahead and make an intelligent magic item that you see as powerful and I will happily take that amount and give you a shopping list of other items that would be much more effective in even general situations.

That (sometimes) casts spells you mention costs as much as a wand at best and is limited to 1-3 times a day, the wand is a better value in just about all cases. Yes getting off that one extra spell in a battle might be good but given that the game assumes 4 encounters per day you still come up short with the magic item. Situations and spell selection may make it better but 50 charges of wand whenever needed is damn hard to beat. In the long term it is a great investment, I'll give it that, but in the clutch moments which dictate if you are going to survive to enjoy that long term investment, the wand would have been the better choice...

Again for what an intelligent magic item costs and it's limitations unless you put a great deal of money into it (at which point it stopped being cheap didn't it?) I will disagree with your statement that they are "powerful." Not saying they can't be powerful, just it isn't as cheap as you seem to make it sound to make them that way.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:
That (sometimes) casts spells you mention costs as much as a wand at best and is limited to 1-3 times a day, the wand is a better value in just about all cases. Yes getting off that one extra spell in a battle might be good but given that the game assumes 4 encounters per day you still come up short with the magic item. Situations and spell selection may make it better but 50 charges of wand whenever needed is damn hard to beat. In the long term it is a great investment, I'll give it that, but in the clutch moments which dictate if you are going to survive to enjoy that long term investment, the wand would have been the better choice...

To each his own.

A wand uses up your actions. An intelligent item might get to use a power far less, but it can do so without eating up your actions.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:
harmor wrote:
What is the crafter's minimum level?

I don't believe I have ever seen rules for crafting intelligent items, in any edition of D&D including Pathfinder. I'm sure somebody has tackled it somewhere, maybe in some 3rd party material, but I haven't seen it.

I believe that they are intentionally left out. Intelligent items may not be craftable in the ordinary sense. They're like minor artifacts created by rare or unique circumstances. The way I've always run them, they began as ordinary magic items until by some happenstance the soul of a creature got bound into them. These souls are of varying intelligence and conciousness as represented by the Int and Ego scores of the item.

So it's not ordinarily possible to craft an intelligent item, but special circumstances can happen to make one. A paladin who falls in battle with her holy sword for instance may have too much left undone to pass on... but instead of becoming a ghost... her soul bonds with her blade.. waiting for a worthy wielder to finish what she left undone.


Ravingdork wrote:


To each his own.

A wand uses up your actions. An intelligent item might get to use a power far less, but it can do so without eating up your actions.

Agreed, though a free negligible action is still negligible I think most people will find in actual practice and game play. At any given time a non negligible action for the level of the group requires a significant cost to add to an intelligent magic item. That is where I take issue with your statement earlier that they are somehow powerful for lower level groups and shouldn't be allowed. In fact the lower the level the group the more significant the cost as they have less resources and that means an intelligent magic item ends up basically being a money sink and a far less useful investment than something else. Lower level characters cannot afford all the nifty bells and whistles that make the item all "powerful."


LazarX wrote:


I believe that they are intentionally left out. Intelligent items may not be craftable in the ordinary sense. They're like minor artifacts created by rare or unique circumstances. The way I've always run them, they began as ordinary magic items until by some happenstance the soul of a creature got bound into them. These souls are of varying intelligence and conciousness as represented by the Int and Ego scores of the item.
****
So it's not ordinarily possible to craft an intelligent item, but special circumstances can happen to make one. A paladin who falls in battle with her holy sword for instance may have too much left undone to pass on... but instead of becoming a ghost... her soul bonds with her blade.. waiting for a worthy wielder to finish what she left undone.

Um, no the information is there starting right on page 532 of the PFRPG, but it seems there is a change from having a minimum caster level to not having one. Paizo has stated they wanted to streamline and consolidate the rules of the game. If, in 3.5, there was a 15th level minimum caster prereq to make an intelligent magic item why was it there? From the looks of it, it seems like it has been decided the minium caster level is basically the minimum caster level of the permanent magic item you are adding the intelligence to. This actually makes more sense. How come a +1 long sword could be made by some low level mage but a +1 long sword with an intelligence/wisdom/charisma of 10 and only empathic communication requires a 15th level creator? The functional difference is negligible between the two items. Intelligent magic items are very prevalent in fantasy stories, why have them only in the realm of high level/epic characters in the game? From most of the posts I see here on the boards we're talking about levels most groups never see, why take an interesting concept, a staple of the fantasy world, and make it unattainable by the majority of players?

I'd say the folks at Paizo looked at it, realized it was pretty stupid and gutted it. I'd agree with that assessment.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:


Intelligent magic items are very prevalent in fantasy stories, why have them only in the realm of high level/epic characters in the game? From most of the posts I see here on the boards we're talking about levels most groups never see, why take an interesting concept, a staple of the fantasy world, and make it unattainable by the majority of players?

One... they should be unattainable.. they should be placed when the DM wants them to be placed. In my view they're not crafted... they happen. And they usually have a story-related purpose. When everyone in the group has a talking blade or stick... they're not epic... they're just cheap tricks.

Intelligent magic items aren't that common in fantasy stories.. and when they do appear Like in the Silmarillion and Stormbringer they usually speak only at one climactic moment... just before (or after) they take the lives of thier wielders.

I do remember once however playing a classic module called "The Adventures of No-Man." The players in that game were all a collection of a dead hero's intelligent magic items. They could mentally talk to each other but only the sword could speak.


LazarX wrote:


One... they should be unattainable.. they should be placed when the DM wants them to be placed. In my view they're not crafted... they happen. And they usually have a story-related purpose. When everyone in the group has a talking blade or stick... they're not epic... they're just cheap tricks.

Again, that would be your opinion on the subject. The rules allow for them to be crafted; stats, abilities, costs and all. If they were supposed to be "unattainable" there wouldn't be rules to craft them would there? They could have been left completely to the discretion of the DM, just as artifacts are, with a few examples in the book (like artifacts). If the DM wants the party to have an artifact, they create the item and plop it down in the PC's path. Rules don't back your opinion on this particular subject unfortunately.

LazarX wrote:


Intelligent magic items aren't that common in fantasy stories.. and when they do appear Like in the Silmarillion and Stormbringer they usually speak only at one climactic moment... just before (or after) they take the lives of thier wielders.

I do remember once however playing a classic module called "The Adventures of No-Man." The players in that game were all a collection of a dead hero's intelligent magic items. They could mentally talk to each other but only the sword could speak.

Maybe you're a more discerning reader than I am and limit what you read, but I'm fairly sure there are many more books out there with plots, stories and items that aren't out to suck the soul of user or destroy them. To each their own. FYI, there is also a module out there that drops 3-4 intelligent magic items in the party's lap (someone already mentioned Blackrazor). Personal preference is one thing, saying they are "unattainable" when the rules say the formula for making an intelligent item is X+Y+Z is typically just being willfully ignorant on the subject. The game says that ~1% of total magic items are intelligent, the party could have an intelligent magic item each and still not come close to "breaking" that. The "game" is bigger than anything you or I can fully imagine, so many more possibilities than we will come up with on our own. You or I, or anyone for that matter, don't have to like every part of it but Paizo is attempting to make the game capable of doing things outside what you or I may want. And that is a good thing.

I'd have say you are wrong, the game doesn't consider intelligent magical items "unattainable", but feel free to play it that way if you so decide to. When talking about things regarding the rules of the game I always try to make sure to remain focused on what RAW says here on the boards. When it comes to each of our little sandboxes we should make sure when posting about the "differences" that we keep in mind.

Liberty's Edge

This thread is worth checking out:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/pCsCreatingIntelligentMagicItems&page=1&source=search#0


Marc Radle wrote:

This thread is worth checking out:

I fixed the broken link and also de-searchified it.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks!


So, I have a question then.

Looking at the rules for crafting ordinary magic items, gold (for raw materials) isn't the only requirement. We also need time, workspace, and spells that must be cast to create magic items. Yes, I know, we can skip a couple of those requirements if we raise the DC.

But so far in this thread we've talked about simply allowing Intelligent magic items to be created for a few extra gold pieces:

For the price of 25,160 gold you can create a +5 sword. You need the gold, a place to work, 51 days of your life, and you must cast Greater Magic Weapon 51 times.

or

For the cheap, cheap, cheap price of 25,660 gold (only 500 more gp) you can create a +5 sword with INT 10, WIS 10, and CHA 10, can "see" up to 30 feet, and can communicate with you empathically. Furthmore, almost anyone who tries to take it from you suffers immediate pain and suffering (loses a level) and would probably drop it on the spot. You need the gold, a place to work, 51 days of your life, and you must cast Greater Magic Weapon 51 times.

Note: that's less than a 2% increase in cost. The time to make the weapon does not change, nor does the spell requirement. In fact, nothing changes except the 2% price increase. Oh, the other change is that you get an incredibly useful extra set of powers added onto your new sword.

So my question is, shouldn't there be requirements on this other stuff? Every other possible magic item you can make requires at least one spell related to the item's magical effects, but for some reason, crafting intelligent items doesn't follow the same logic.

Why not?

(Entering houserule territory)

For example, you must give it INT, WIS, and CHA. This should require Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Splendor to be cast every day while crafting the item. And it gets an alignment, which might require Align Weapon. 30' of sensory perception might require Arcane Eye. Empathy might require Telepathic Bond (not fond of that choice but at a glance I didn't see much else).

That would be the minimum spell requirements to make a sentient item. Other powers and purposes would require additional spells.

And you cannot skip all of that because EACH spell requirement is a +5 penalty to the DC - nobody's Spellcraft DC is so high that they can skip all 7 minimum spells and suffer a +35 to DC without having serious doubts about their ability to even finish the item.

Yes, that's right off the top of my head, but wouldn't something like that be fairly justified within the existing system for creating magic items?


Oh, and on the subject of creating intelligent magic items, two more suggestions (houserules) come to mind:

1. I would suggest adding the item's EGO to the item's CL when you make that final Spellcraft check at the end. This would greatly raise the stakes, especially if the item is really special.

1a. Supplemental: Maybe a "cursed" intelligent item is a complete idiot. Loud, boisterous, and stupid. And you can't get rid of it. It insults everyone in town, embarrasses the ladies, and in dungeons, don't even think of getting surprise on any monsters.

2. You cannot make an item of an alignment different than your own. I suppose if you're making it for yourself, you would never want to anyway, but if you're making it for someone else, like the NG wizard making a sentient holy sword for the Paladin, well, that's going to be a NG holy sword.

2a. Supplemental: maybe you could "trick" it during constructin by using the UMD rules to fake your alignment.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:
[FYI, there is also a module out there that drops 3-4 intelligent magic items in the party's lap (someone already mentioned Blackrazor)

Oh goddess... Blackrazor. I have the module in question. It's an old FIRST edition module that's been redone and expanded. Of the items in question, they all come with major baggage.... And Blackrazor.... is a great reason to find excuses to relocate to another zipcode rather than wield that weapon. If I found it, I wouldn't even touch that blade. I'd loop a corde around it... and drop that thing into the nearest volcano available. All three of those weapons clearly fall into the Minor Artifact class at least. With Blackrazor very close to the Stormbringer category.... not just some magic item made off the shelf.

There are areas where I'm not in total agreement with Pazio's style... this is one of them. For PFS play it's a moot issue because no item creation is allowed anyway.


In the 3.5 book 'Unearthed Arcanum' (I think) was a feat for an Item Familiar. The basic bit was you spent the feat, made a cosmic tie with the item, and you gained options with it as you went up level. Things like extra skill points, bonus experience, a bonus spell slot, and eventually the item became intelligent. There was a bit where they talked about the alighment of the item matching yours and that the item would stay intelligent after you died. It discussed how the item would deal with a new owner.


DM_Blake wrote:

So, I have a question then.

Looking at the rules for crafting ordinary magic items, gold (for raw materials) isn't the only requirement. We also need time, workspace, and spells that must be cast to create magic items. Yes, I know, we can skip a couple of those requirements if we raise the DC.

But so far in this thread we've talked about simply allowing Intelligent magic items to be created for a few extra gold pieces:

For the price of 25,160 gold you can create a +5 sword. You need the gold, a place to work, 51 days of your life, and you must cast Greater Magic Weapon 51 times.

or

For the cheap, cheap, cheap price of 25,660 gold (only 500 more gp) you can create a +5 sword with INT 10, WIS 10, and CHA 10, can "see" up to 30 feet, and can communicate with you empathically. Furthmore, almost anyone who tries to take it from you suffers immediate pain and suffering (loses a level) and would probably drop it on the spot. You need the gold, a place to work, 51 days of your life, and you must cast Greater Magic Weapon 51 times.

Note: that's less than a 2% increase in cost. The time to make the weapon does not change, nor does the spell requirement. In fact, nothing changes except the 2% price increase. Oh, the other change is that you get an incredibly useful extra set of powers added onto your new sword.

So my question is, shouldn't there be requirements on this other stuff? Every other possible magic item you can make requires at least one spell related to the item's magical effects, but for some reason, crafting intelligent items doesn't follow the same logic.

Why not?

(Entering houserule territory)

For example, you must give it INT, WIS, and CHA. This should require Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Splendor to be cast every day while crafting the item. And it gets an alignment, which might require Align Weapon. 30' of sensory perception might require Arcane Eye. Empathy might require Telepathic Bond (not fond of that choice but at a glance I didn't see much else)....

Well first off, your cost is wrong,

"Intelligent items must have an alignment, mental ability scores, languages, senses, and at least one other special ability"

The cost of the item is the (normal +5 sword) +500g +0 (stats) +0 (languages) +0 (empathy & 30ft see/hear) +Special ability (lowest is 1000g)

So that is a minimum of +1500g not +500g.

+1500g to add 30ft senses on the sword, where all it can do is urge the player to look a particular direction. It won't help when the player is sleeping, nor during combat, when i'd argue your emotions and urges are too busy about other things.

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