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I plan on using the spell Summon Monster in the near future, so I have a few questions for my fellow Pathfinder players.
At what levels do you consider Summon Monster most useful?
Do you think Augment Summoning is worth two feats?
Is the Celestial or Fiendish template better?
And the big one, what monsters do you consider best at each level?
Dog*
Eagle*
Fire beetle*
Poisonous frog*
Pony (horse)*
Viper (snake)*
Elemental (small)
Giant centipede*
Giant frog*
Giant spider*
Goblin dog*
Horse*
Hyena*
Lemure (devil)
Wolf*
Ape*
Aurochs*
Boar*
Cheetah*
Constrictor snake*
Crocodile*
Dire bat*
Dretch (demon)
Lantern archon
Leopard (cat)*
Monitor lizard*
Wolverine*
Bison (herd animal)*
Deinonychus (dinosaur)*
Dire ape*
Dire boar*
Dire wolf*
Elemental (medium)
Giant scorpion*
Giant wasp*
Grizzly bear*
Hell hound
Hound archon
Lion*
Mephit (any)
Pteranodon (dinosaur)*
Rhinoceros*
Babau (demon)
Bearded devil
Bralani azata
Dire lion*
Elemental (large)
Kyton
Salamander
Woolly rhinoceros*
Xill
Dire tiger*
Elasmosaurus (dinosaur)*
Elemental (huge)
Elephant*
Erinyes (devil)
Invisible stalker
Lillend azata
Shadow demon
Succubus (demon)
Triceratops (dinosaur)*
Bone devil
Brachiosaurus (dinosaur)*
Dire crocodile*
Elemental (greater)
Mastadon (elephant)*
Roc*
Tyrannosaurus (dinosaur)*
Vrock (demon)
Elemental (elder)
Hezrou (demon)
Ghaele azata
Glabrezu (demon)
Ice devil
Nalfeshnee (demon)
Trumpet archon
For purposes of discussion, please assume a neutral Wizard casting the highest level spell available for his character level. Feel free to add comments specific to Cleric, Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, or Bard, good or evil casters, summons cast at lower than max level, spells cast from items, or whatever else interests you. Just be aware that, unless you specify an exception, we're assuming the above.
I didn't have much experience with summoning up until going through a few modules recently where I made a conjurer wizard, and even then only to got 4th level spells.
Summoning a rhinoceros really won an encounter for me: it might be one of my favorites.
Also, hound archons are great buffers if you're fighting evil things. They have permanent magic circles against evil surrounding them.
In the 3rd level, cheetahs have a cool (but circumstantial) sprint ability. Also, wolverines have served as good ragers for me.
I think if you're a conjuration specialist (a very good idea) then Augment Summoning is worth taking.
Other than some situational damage soaking at level 1, the summons come into their own around the 3rd level spell, the Leopard is my pick of the bunch, with Augment a tasty charge with 5 attacks at 20 Strength.
I plan on using the spell Summon Monster in the near future, so I have a few questions for my fellow Pathfinder players.
At what levels do you consider Summon Monster most useful?
Do you think Augment Summoning is worth two feats?
Is the Celestial or Fiendish template better?
And the big one, what monsters do you consider best at each level?
Augment summoning is worth two feats if you plan on using many summons. It is a +2 to damage(or +3), Attack, Fortitude saves, +2 on many special ability DCs (mostly poisons) and 2Hp per HD.
especially the last thing is helpful, because one of the most important uses of summons is battlefield control and soaking up HP. (Every hit a monster takes is a hit your cleric doesn't have to heal)
Celsetial and fiendish don't give each other much, if you have free choice which to summon decide based on circumstances. For most PC's fiendish will often be the better choice, because it will be harder for your enemies to bypass their DR.
As for the best summons. That largely depends on the circumstances. Most summons have their uses in specific situations.
Level 1:
- The eagle can fly and scout
- The Frog or the viper might be useful against low Fort enemies like wizards.
- the dog might have the most combat powress
Most of these can't put up a real fight on their own, but if you set them up to flank with your fighter type and use aid another for his attack, thats a +4 t hit he will love you for.
Level 2
- The horse is a decent grappler
- the elementals have various uses (like scouting through walls with earth....)
- Wolf is probably the best hitter at this level, also tripping is again a huge buff for your party.
- lemure can see in darkness, but is pretty useless for anything else
Level 3
- cheetah has many attacks ( all of which are improved by augment
summoning ( slightly less than the later cats though)
- crocodile is a heavy hitter and grab with death roll is a nice debuff
- lantern archon can cast aid at will and attacks with touch attacks
- Bat has blindsense and can help pinpointing invisible enemies
- dretch has stinking cloud and cause fear
- leopard has 3 attacks and 5 on a charge which you can easily set up. All those benefit from augment summoning, the charge and flanking.
This is your best combat option for this level
Level 4
- Dire wolf: like wolf but bigger and has DR
-Bison, Large(blocking) Lots of hp, DR, a heavy hitting attack and an Area effect with a Decent DC ( 20 or 22 respectively)
- grizzly bear. A bison without traple, but with multiple attacks and Grab.
- Lion like all Cats bring down a world of hurt when pouncing into flanking position.
- Mephits offer a wide range of spell-likes, but only summon them if you really need those spells.
Level 5
-Ankylosaur. If you hit a enemy ( with a likely bonus of at least +18 the enemy must make a DC 23(25) fort save or cant act for one round? deal!. On tops of that you get a 100HP wall of flesh, with 15ft reach( AOO dazes ftw) that can easily block an entire street ( or room).
-Dire lion. Same as all cats. many attacks = a ton of damage (augment summoning now equals +10 dmg) plus grab, plus rake.
- The outsiders have nice SLas that are useful when you need them, but dont shine in combat as the big beasties
Level 6
- Dire tiger and Tricaeratops are your animals of the level.
- Lillend is your own pocket bard. Thats a ton of spellslots you can get out of one spell, if you can use the spells he has to offer.
- Shadow demon is incorporal (touch attacks!), can posess, fly and cast Shadow spells = choose your spelllike.
- Erinnes have true seeing, and can easily stay out of the enemies reach. But you want your monsters to be hit by your enemies. Every hit is one the arty doesn't have to take.
- Succubus has some nice charming and draining abilities, but not too much else.
Thats for the levels I played myself as a summoner ( not all of them with pathfinder, so there might be a bit of edition confusion going on)
At ELvel 7 especially the Bebilith seems to shine, but I didn't have a chance to try him yet.
After all, how powerful summons are largely depends on intelligent use of summons and Synergy with your party. ( ardic music gets a lot stronger once you get a monster with 5 attacks per round on the table.
haste is a great buff for Monsters like the Crocodile or Especially the Ankylosaur etc.
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We had great fun with the t-rex, since Animal Growth and Strong Jaw make his bite attack like dropping a disintegrate on someone. Several times.
I'd like to second lantern archons as well, since I found them to be multi-use summons anyone should field. Their at wills will take care of a lot of buffing at low levels and they have a unresistable touch attack, which means you can still use the lantern archons en masse at higher levels to shoot their eeny rays. 5 archons equals 5d6x2 of damage every round. That's nothing to scoff at.
Furthermore, that flight is darned useful.
All azatas are dealbreakers with their sla's. Bralanis can also fly and shoot, which is luvly.
I haven't done much summoning myself, but going by Treantmonk's guide, summoning isn't really worth it up until you get the level III version of it. I suppose I can speak for it myself - I tried just a tad of summoning myself as my level 3-4 Cleric, and found that a level 2 companion just wasn't going to cut it in the multi-enemy encounter I was in (I might have been better off with 1d4 dire rats...). Then again, as Azmahel said above, the Lemure Devil is pretty much useless anyway. (Why did I summon it again?)
If you're going to be a dedicated summoner, I'd say Augment Summoning is worth it; from what I've heard, several Conjuration spells asides from summoning are very good yet save dependent, so having Spell Focus in that school could be a saving grace.
Have you made any decisions about what class you're going to use yet? The Summoner's minute/level instead of /round looks to be pretty impressive, but I suppose the wizard would be much more versatile.
I haven't done much summoning myself, but going by Treantmonk's guide, summoning isn't really worth it up until you get the level III version of it. I suppose I can speak for it myself - I tried just a tad of summoning myself as my level 3-4 Cleric, and found that a level 2 companion just wasn't going to cut it in the multi-enemy encounter I was in (I might have been better off with 1d4 dire rats...). Then again, as Azmahel said above, the Lemure Devil is pretty much useless anyway. (Why did I summon it again?)
If you're going to be a dedicated summoner, I'd say Augment Summoning is worth it; from what I've heard, several Conjuration spells asides from summoning are very good yet save dependent, so having Spell Focus in that school could be a saving grace.
Have you made any decisions about what class you're going to use yet? The Summoner's minute/level instead of /round looks to be pretty impressive, but I suppose the wizard would be much more versatile.
Everything under level 3 ( except maybe the wolf) is pretty much only use full to either stand in the way of the enemies or /and flank and use aid another to give your party bonuses.
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I disagree eagles are great summons at 1st level, 3 attacks at +3 doing 1d4+2 damage per hit is very nice. The problem is duration of course, but if you get it out for a couple of rounds ideally flanking it is well worth a first level slot. Its even better for a summoner who gets it out as a standard action and has 10 rounds of use at 1st level.
Even worthwhile at 2nd and 3rd level against low AC foes imo, 1d4+1 eagles will put a serious crimp in a low Ac foes day, especially if they do not have multiple attacks per round.
Lemures are great when summoned in the right situation, block a foes path with a Lemure and if he does not have a silver weapon that DR 5 and 17 hp - augmented - are going to make the Lemure and excellent wall. And one that responds with 2 Claws at +4 doing 1d4+2 per round. Sounds decent to me for a 2nd level spell.
I'd say it all depends; Treantmonk's guide was more suited to describing his version (or vision) of a battlefield control Wizard, or a "God" as he calls it. If one is more tailored towards being a dedicated summoner, a lot of his advice won't really fit, so I definitely agree with you there.
I'm more or less misguided by the fact that I chose to summon a Devil Lemure for roleplaying purposes instead of using something suited to the situation at hand.
Everything under level 3 ( except maybe the wolf) is pretty much only use full to either stand in the way of the enemies or /and flank and use aid another to give your party bonuses.
Can animal level intelligence summoned creatures aid another? I didn't think they could.
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I've found Elementals to be insanely versatile. I've used a Fire Elemental to do damage to a swarm and burn down a plank on a ship trying to board our ship. A Water Elemental can dispel magical fire. An air Elemental can hit things others cannot. etc.
One tip is to summon the monster 10' from the mob and charge into it (and flank if possible) for the extra attack bonus or at least provide a flank bonus to a party melee.
Everything under level 3 ( except maybe the wolf) is pretty much only use full to either stand in the way of the enemies or /and flank and use aid another to give your party bonuses.Can animal level intelligence summoned creatures aid another? I didn't think they could.
I'd like to know this as well, for future reference - the advice was quite good.
On another note, are summoned monsters controlled on the summoner's initiative via verbal commands (free actions), as with animal companions, or do they get their own initiative and act independently?
Everything under level 3 ( except maybe the wolf) is pretty much only use full to either stand in the way of the enemies or /and flank and use aid another to give your party bonuses.Can animal level intelligence summoned creatures aid another? I didn't think they could.
Well since the INt 3 celestial creature times are over it is anybody's call. Seeing how many animals have developed pack tactics i would say that many could. Maybe not the bison, but a wolf surely could.
Another question that arises from this one i the one about how much control a summoner has over his summons. But again there is no certain answer, and the issue has already been argued to death.
Everything under level 3 ( except maybe the wolf) is pretty much only use full to either stand in the way of the enemies or /and flank and use aid another to give your party bonuses.Can animal level intelligence summoned creatures aid another? I didn't think they could.I'd like to know this as well, for future reference - the advice was quite good.
On another note, are summoned monsters controlled on the summoner's initiative via verbal commands (free actions), as with animal companions, or do they get their own initiative and act independently?
We handle them like animal companions. If anything just to avoid the issues that one player might have 2 or more turns. Summoners are time consuming enough as it is.
We handle them like animal companions. If anything just to avoid the issues that one player might have 2 or more turns. Summoners are time consuming enough as it is.Everything under level 3 ( except maybe the wolf) is pretty much only use full to either stand in the way of the enemies or /and flank and use aid another to give your party bonuses.Can animal level intelligence summoned creatures aid another? I didn't think they could.I'd like to know this as well, for future reference - the advice was quite good.
On another note, are summoned monsters controlled on the summoner's initiative via verbal commands (free actions), as with animal companions, or do they get their own initiative and act independently?
Our group rules that anything that you summon in during a fight acts immediately at the same initiative count. If it was summoned with a longer duration effect and was in existence before the battle broke out, then it gets its own initiative roll, but it may have to delay to the summoner anyway depending on its orders or intelligence.
Another question that arises from this one i the one about how much control a summoner has over his summons.
Very little. A summoned creature will attack the summoner's enemies, but since you can no longer communicate with them (if you even could at 3 Int) without a SEPARATE spell, they can't do anything more complex than being meat shields.
For me it's basically a choice between utility, meat shield and heavy hitter.
For utility, I prefer intelligent creatures that can provide secondary casting functions such as the Lantern Archon, the Bralani Azata, the Lillend Azata and the Ghaele Azata. I also like creatures that provide a level of functionality that is unusual at that level such as flying.
For Meat Shields I like large or huge creatures because they block charge lanes and eat up a ton of real estate. If they have reach and can lock down opposition (grab ability, etc) then their utility as tarpits goes way up.
For heavy hitters I like things with pounce, or maybe trample because they can do a lot of burst damage, which can supplement the damage the martial and skill monkey characters are putting out.
The problem with the heavy hitter category is by the time that you get those spells many of the summoned creatures have a moderately hard time hitting CR appropriate foes. At that point in time you either need them to be decent meatshields (although they often die quickly vs full attacks) or better yet act as a force multiplier to your casters by offering utility casting.
For me it's basically a choice between utility, meat shield and heavy hitter.
For utility, I prefer intelligent creatures that can provide secondary casting functions such as the Lantern Archon, the Bralani Azata, the Lillend Azata and the Ghaele Azata. I also like creatures that provide a level of functionality that is unusual at that level such as flying.
For Meat Shields I like large or huge creatures because they block charge lanes and eat up a ton of real estate. If they have reach and can lock down opposition (grab ability, etc) then their utility as tarpits goes way up.
For heavy hitters I like things with pounce, or maybe trample because they can do a lot of burst damage, which can supplement the damage the martial and skill monkey characters are putting out.
The problem with the heavy hitter category is by the time that you get those spells many of the summoned creatures have a moderately hard time hitting CR appropriate foes. At that point in time you either need them to be decent meatshields (although they often die quickly vs full attacks) or better yet act as a force multiplier to your casters by offering utility casting.
Casting summons give you get bang for your buck in my experience.
Also I love the Shadow Demon.
On another note, are summoned monsters controlled on the summoner's initiative via verbal commands (free actions), as with animal companions, or do they get their own initiative and act independently?
Summoned monsters automatically attack your enemies. If you share a language with them, they'll follow other instructions.
"It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn," means its initiative will always be the same as the caster's. (Or start out the same, one or the other could delay.)
Nice name MinstrelintheGallery I love Jethro Tull!!!
As do I, there aren't nearly enough of us, really. I'm toying with an Ian Anderson Bard in the near future...
Anyway back to summons-
I actually prefer celestial than fiendish summons because, while enemies can pierce their DR, the smiting is pretty cool.
Also some things I noticed in the Bestiary 2- You can use the entropic and resolute templates and, since you can summon ANY elemental the new elementals are free game.
Awesome.
Choosing a template?
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Celestial Template or Fiendish Template
At spell level 3 and below, all of the monsters have less than 5 HD, putting them in the lowest category of the templates = no DR.
At spell level 4+ most of the monsters have 5 or more HD = DR 5/good or 5/evil.
So at level 7 you start getting a choice between freely dealing and taking damage from enemies, or having to overcome their DR but having effective DR on your side as well. I suspect that summoning monsters of the same alignment as the enemy might be a good tactic. If you're main concern is providing flanking, tanking, or meat shielding, DR may be much more useful than damage dealing capabilities.
I like summoning spells, but there are two things that really annoy me:
1. A 1 round casting.
2. A level 1 spell caster's summon monster lasts for 1 round! one (1) round! and takes 1 round to cast!!!! argh!,not to mention the summoned monster is mediocre at level 1.
Summoned creatures may not summon other creatures.
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Nice name MinstrelintheGallery I love Jethro Tull!!!As do I, there aren't nearly enough of us, really. I'm toying with an Ian Anderson Bard in the near future...
Anyway back to summons-
I actually prefer celestial than fiendish summons because, while enemies can pierce their DR, the smiting is pretty cool.
Also some things I noticed in the Bestiary 2- You can use the entropic and resolute templates and, since you can summon ANY elemental the new elementals are free game.
Awesome.
I found the bit about the Entropic and Resolute templates, but couldn't find the thing about summoning the new elementals. Source?
Augment Summoning is certainly worth two feats. The +2 to hit and damage is essential to make your summons viable combatants, and the +2 hp per hit die doesn't hurt either. I mean, look at the 1st level eagle. 3 attacks for 1d4 damage each totals 7.5 average damage while 3 attacks for 1d4+2 damage each totals 13.5 average damage, almost double. Eagle and riding dog are both good summons for SMI depending on whether you want lots of attacks or a tougher combatant. I thought that the riding dog got errata'd to just a normal dog at some point, but maybe I was mistaken.
The toughest thing about summoning via spells (instead of with the Summoner's SLA) is getting the spells off. Depending on the temperament of your DM and which monsters he or she is using a lot of summons will be disrupted by spears, arrows, magic missiles, etc. Even the summons you get off will often show up late in the fight. As such summons are probably most useful for BIG fights. If you know a fight is coming and can summon ahead that's great (but this is the case with many other spells like buffs too)
As people have said, the pouncing cats have great damage potential. I'd advise using the celestial template against evil foes since it allows smite evil. That can be a LOT of extra damage from a leopard or lion. Putting DR on the summon does sound appealing, but many DMs are already reluctant to attack summoned creatures (focusing on PCs instead), so adding damage potential while leaving out DR seems like a good way to make the bad guys attack the pesky summoned monster. As for summons with special abilities, the bralani azata and lillend really stand out at their levels though I haven't had a PC capable of summoning either yet since my current summoning PC is a Druid.
Also - Jethro Tull is great!
The Summon Monster spell just says "Elemental (Large)", pretty non-specific. Doesn't limit it to the Bestiary I or the four basic types.
Exactly. Unfortunately, the elemental form spell hasn't been updated, so while the druid can wildshape into new plants and animals (allosaurus and giant ground sloth for the win) he can take the form of the new elementals.
I think the new elementals are more or less on par with the old. The lightning elemental's +3 to hit metal equipped opponents is nice, though.
Augment Summoning is excellent for your summoned creatures, but I delayed until 3rd level for the feat. Up until that time I had treated the summoned creatures as expendable meatshields, or "flankers on the fly".
The Sorcerer Celestial bloodline with a Varisian Tattoo (conjuration) gives a +1 to duration of summoned creatures. Or a Wizard specializing in Conjuration can get a (1/2 Wiz level) boost to duration.
If you start picking up new languages at the same time you start summoning the elementals, it's not hard to pick up all four languages in a level or two. I also used the excuse that "if they have the Celestial template they can understand Celestial" to the GM.
With the Celestial bloodline at level 7 you get the Extend Spell for free, helping with duration of summoned creatures.
The dog errata is for Druid (Summon Nature's Ally) only, I believe, not Sor/Wiz Summon Monster. The Celestial Riding Dog at low levels with the Smite ability is pretty effective against Evil monsters.
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The dog errata is for Druid (Summon Nature's Ally) only, I believe, not Sor/Wiz Summon Monster. The Celestial Riding Dog at low levels with the Smite ability is pretty effective against Evil monsters.
Yeah, the riding dog remains the best first level summons on the SMI list by a good margin. I suspect the SNA fix was supposed to hit both lists but for now it seems it's still valid.
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I like summoning spells, but there are two things that really annoy me:
1. A 1 round casting.
2. A level 1 spell caster's summon monster lasts for 1 round! one (1) round! and takes 1 round to cast!!!! argh!,not to mention the summoned monster is mediocre at level 1.
Threadmancy worthy thread.
1.) Summon Monsters may be the most disruptive spell to the nefarious schemes of your game master. As a result, a full round to cast makes sense. Bringing in allies is a big bonus for a party. It should have a certain level of difficulty.
2.) You are first level. First level spell casters quite frankly suck. At 5th or 6th level they start to make up for it, and in spades.
Cheers,
Mazra
Lush Summoning adds nice bit or resilience to them.....currently have a nature oracle/ groveborn sorceror/ going to MT i realise that is horribley weak but eventually will just fill the battlefield with SMA/SNA with all sorts of nonsense on them (starligth etc summons)
It will never be a powerful build but is great fun to play!!
I am a big fan of summons spells. In KM a lot of SM VI.VII and SN also proved their worth
Anything with improved grab, anything that is great at grappling.
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Haven't had much trouble with any Summoned Monster as a GM except the ones that excel at grabbing. They can seriously ruin your well-planned encounter.
This! And big bruisers that gets in the way can mess things up too. I will never forget the Huge Fire Elemental that took out my Green Dragon. I had big plans for that Dragon. ;)
Answer to most of your questions
Yes, Augment Summoning is worth it.
Yes, Spell Focus: Conjuration is worth it.
Yes, Handle Animal is worth it (If your GM will make you push animals to make them attack a target after the first...)
My favorites by level are
1: Eagle. (Only if Master Summoner, otherwise skip SM I)
2: Hyena for General Purposes, Squid and Octopus in water. Small elementals for utility. (Probably only if Master Summoner)
3: Cheetah for trip, Leopard for damage, Lantern Archon for DR critters or extended fights (You can talk to them to order them around. No handle animal checks!).
4: Hound Archon
5: Ankylosaurus and Large Elementals
6: Lillend Azata if you dont have a Bard, Dire Tiger, and Huge Elementals
Never played higher, so no opinion past MS 6