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Barbarian
Gender: Female. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Larger Than Average Breasts: No. Excessive Cleavage / Bare Flesh: No (midriff, a bit of leg and a hint of side-boob, but nothing excessive). Scars Etc: Yes. Practical Attire and Equipment: No (over-large sword, cumbersome looking gloves and unarmoured torso).
Bard
Gender: Male. Conventionally Attractive: No (too short, odd proportions, hairy feet). Big Muscles: No. Excessive Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: No. Practical Attire and Equipment: Yes (well, for a bard, and I’ll forgive bare feet in a halfling).
Cleric
Gender: Female. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Larger Than Average Breasts: No. Excessive Cleavage / Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: No (I assume these are tattoos under her eyes). Practical Attire and Equipment: Yes (she’s wearing armour and a helmet, has her weapons and holy sympol, doesn’t appear overly encumbered and I will give her the benefit of the doubt that her robes and chainmail tabard are cut to allow movement).
Druid
Gender: Female. Conventionally Attractive: No (too short, odd proportions, strange hair). Larger Than Average Breasts: No. Excessive Cleavage / Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: No. Practical Attire and Equipment: Yes.
Fighter
Gender: Male. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Big Muscles: No (at least not in evidence). Excessive Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: Yes. Practical Attire and Equipment: No (so close, but we never see Valeros wear or even own a helmet, which seems silly for someone who frequently gets flung about, torn apart and smacked down by a variety of enemies).
Monk
Gender: Male. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Big Muscles: Yes. Excessive Bare Flesh: Yes. Scars Etc: Yes (he appears to have bags under his eyes and some wrinkles or something going on at the top of his nose. He also shaves his head to hide his receding hairline). Practical Attire and Equipment: Yes (presumably for a monk).
Paladin
Gender: Female. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Larger Than Average Breasts: No. Excessive Cleavage / Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: No. Practical Attire and Equipment: Yes (she even has her hair tied back).
Ranger
Gender: Male. Conventionally Attractive: No. Big Muscles: No (well, hard to tell). Excessive Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: Yes (wrinkles and a deformed looking nose). Practical Attire and Equipment: Yes (barely … let’s assume because he’s a dwarf he can carry all that without being significantly hampered, and that because he prefers to stay at range and his head is probably as hard as rock anyway, he doesn’t need a helmet).
Rogue
Gender: Female. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Larger Than Average Breasts: No. Excessive Cleavage / Bare Flesh: No (the gap at the top of the armour may not be that practical, but I’d hardly call it excessive or gratuitous). Scars Etc: No. Practical Attire and Equipment: No (actually the gap in the armour doesn’t bother me that much, dexterous Merisiel should be relying far more on dodging attacks or magical protection than physical armour. But for someone who’s role probably involves a lot of sneaking around, wearing lots of red, a shiny gem on your forehead, a few ribbons, and a dozen or so daggers, including ones that potentially restrict your ability to fit through narrow doorways or threaten to fall out of their sheathes as you duck and weave are probably not great ideas).
Sorcerer
Gender: Female. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Larger Than Average Breasts: Yes. Excessive Cleavage / Bare Flesh: Yes. Scars Etc: No (unless you count the beauty spot). Practical Attire and Equipment: No.
Wizard
Gender: Male. Conventionally Attractive: No (Ezren’s just too old). Big Muscles: No. Excessive Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: Yes (wrinkles, and looks as though he may have a bit of a paunch under that belt). Practical Attire and Equipment: Yes.
Eldritch Knight / Magus
Gender: Male. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Big Muscles: Yes (well sculpted anyway). Excessive Bare Flesh: Yes. Scars Etc: Yes (pasty, unhealthy looking skin tone, dead looking eyes and something really weird going on with the shape of his arms). Practical Attire and Equipment: No (with that open shirt and torn cloak he’ll catch his death of cold, and surely all those rings hanging from cords all over the place would catch on something?).
Alchemist
Gender: Male. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Big Muscles: No. Excessive Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: Yes (large bags under his eyes). Practical Attire and Equipment: No (the robe and coat look as though they would restrict movement, he is carrying so much junk on his back he would probably topple over, and when he did all those glass bottles and test tubes that are hanging about unprotected on his coat would surely break).
Cavalier
Gender: Male. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Big Muscles: No (not evident). Excessive Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: Yes (wrinkles under eyes and above nose). Practical Attire and Equipment: No (surely he couldn’t practically navigate a narrow dungeon corridor, a gnarled forest or a standard doorway carrying all those weapons on his person like that. And I hope he’s wearing a good cod piece if he needs to hustle and that spiked flail starts swinging about down there).
Inquisitor
Gender: Female. Conventionally Attractive: No (she’s green and has tusks. I’m into it, but I wouldn’t call it conventional beauty). Larger Than Average Breasts: Yes. Excessive Cleavage / Bare Flesh: Yes. Scars Etc: Yes (those fangs ain’t right). Practical Attire and Equipment: No (they left off a bit of her armour, otherwise she does fairly well).
Oracle
Gender: Female. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Larger Than Average Breasts: Yes. Excessive Cleavage / Bare Flesh: Yes. Scars Etc: Yes (she’s blind and has blank eyes). Practical Attire and Equipment: No (that head dress looks heavy).
Summoner
Gender: Male. Conventionally Attractive: No (too short, too old). Big Muscles: No. Excessive Bare Flesh: No. Scars Etc: No. Practical Attire and Equipment: No (I have no idea what that is that he is wearing).
Witch
Gender: Female. Conventionally Attractive: Yes. Larger Than Average Breasts: Yes (or a good corset maybe). Excessive Cleavage / Bare Flesh: Yes. Scars Etc: No. Practical Attire and Equipment: Yes (let’s assume that a bit of bare flesh is not impractical for an attractive young witch, and that thing on her head is well attached and has some sort of mystical significance …).
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So of 18 Iconics we have 9 females and 9 males. Of the females, 7 of the 9 are conventionally attractive, 4 of them appear to have larger than average breasts, those same 4 are showing a lot of cleavage, 3 of them have some type of scars or blemishes and 4 of the 9 are practically attired.
Of the men, only 5 of the 9 fall into the conventionally attractive category, only 2 have sculpted muscles (that we can see, as they are the same two that are showing excessive bare flesh), 7 have some type of scarring, wrinkles, blemishes etc, and, like the women, only 4 are practically attired for adventuring.
I would count beefcake / cheesecake as any character that scored a yes in all three of the attractive, breasts / muscles and cleavage / flesh categories – so that makes 3 of 9 women and 2 of 9 men. Pretty close, and not excessive in either case. It seems that the only area that is very unequal is in more of the iconic men having scars, wrinkles etc than the women.
Interestingly, if you leave out the 6 newer Iconics from the APG and just concentrate on the original 12, you get only one example of cheesecake and still the two beefcake. I wonder if the new large breasted female Iconics were in response to fan demand, actual or perceived?
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Oh, and I just googled for this Artesia comics - almost all pictures I found showed her wearing late gothic full-plate armor, with only one or two showing her half-naked. Could be an interesting comic.
It's. The world building detail is downright insane at times.
If you had a number of 3.x rulebooks, you've probably seen the artist's work before. Mark Smylie, did art for the Epic Level Handbook and some Forgotten Realms books, along with some others IIRC.
Seoni, Alahazra, and Feiya are definitely easy targets for being female characters with prototype female comic book physiques and stripperific outfits.
Are they total fan service? You bet. Should Paizo possibly feel bad for perpetuating negative stereotypes? Possibly. Do they know their target audience pretty damn well? Definitely.
Wayne Reynolds is clearly one of the top artists working today and he exemplifies the modern aesthetic in terms of high gloss, high edge, highly active portraits and compositions. Some of the iconics are a bit uninspired but for the most part his active scenes have been spectacular.
I think the cheesecake to "realism" quotient isn't too terribly bad. In comparison to other companies active currently in the Fantasy market I'd say Paizo is about average. I don't think they are any more or less exploitative than WotC or White Wolf's Exalted Line.
I actually think Paizo has done a pretty job of avoiding some of the other relatively sexist tendencies like keeping female character relegated to the non-martial classes. Of the core classes female characters occupy 40% of the martial classes (Paladin and Barbarian), 50% of the Skillmonkey classes (Rogue), 50% of the arcane casters (Sorceror) and 100% :( of the Divine classes. I actually wish they had avoided the healers = girls tendency but I really kinda like the Cleric and the Bard.
I wish that with the APG iconics Paizo had broken from the healer = girl model but Alhazra/Storm ;) is a fairly decent character even if the design is super funky.
Maybe if we get another APG we'll finally get a male healer :D
There are other established game companies/game lines are far worse about the cheesecake/objectification of females to the point of bordering on tastelessness, tacky or downright juvenille. Paizo is doing a fine job IMO.
Which other companies? Not SJgames, Chaosium, or Green Ronin, surely not.
Do you mean White Wolf or WotC?I've not purchased any 4E stuff, and I don't plan to do so. I took a good look at it and said 'nawwww.'
Exalted....yeah, I've seen at least one horrifically cheesy cover.
I haven't bought a Gurps product in ages and Chaosium basically sells 1920s era stuff which is unlikely to be particularly exploitative from today's standards.
Green Ronin's biggest seller is Mutants and Masterminds which is comic book themed. I think you could easily indicate that comic books objectify the female form at least as much as high fantasy art, see Zatanna and Power Girl ;)
White Wolf and WotC definitely don't have clean hands in terms of objectifying the human form.
I think honestly Paizo is about average in terms of the amount of objectification in the art, way above average in terms of technical quality and actually pretty decent in terms of the maturity level with which the approach the subject material. Does Golarion tend towards a sexy, grimdark version of high fantasy? Yeah but I think those types of settings sell books especially in a market dominated by one 800 pound Gorilla.
Men will never be objectified visually the way women are, this is true. However, men are attracted to these images where as women are not generally attracted to scantily-clad men with bulging packages, certainly not they way men like bulging breasts. It's simply worthless to try and compare this situation. On another note; Adventurers are generally speaking above/greatly above the average members of their race, for some this means being rippled with muscles, or being especially nimble and quick, is it not just as plausible then that women adventurers might have "above average" figures, i.e. 28DD? Either way I like heavy girls so there is not a lot for me to drool at in the books as is, maybe the paladin though, that armor is sexy.
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Check out Anna Krieder's blog:
http://gomakemeasandwich.blogspot.com/
Holy crap man! Please tell me this person doesn't get paid to whine about cheesecake all day long.
I don't know how far back the Pathfinder stuff was, but just skimming a couple articles had me wanting to enter the priesthood just to get away from whiny nagging women.
I certainly do agree that protective items would help compensate for lousy armor. I just don't agree that the setting material assumes that magic items are so common that this would be a major trend.
I agree. The rules and the settings (most of them, anyway) don't assume magic items are so common this would be a major trend. However, the characters depicted as such are the very rare ultra-heroic characters (hence the term "Iconic") who it would be safe to assume have acquired the requisite magic items, spells and feats to do so. I never assume that all female sorcerers dress like Seoni, or all female barbarians dress like Amiri. I assume that those two characters have the magic items and/or spells and/or feats to do it.
What's the population of Golarion (I don't use the setting, so I don't know)? What's the adult female percentage of that? What's the total number of females that have been depicted as "cheesecake" in Paizo products? What percentage of the total adult female population is that number? I'm willing it to bet that it is sure as heck tiny enough that you can't assume that dressing in such a fashion AND possessing the right magic items/spells/feats is common.
I certainly do agree that protective items would help compensate for lousy armor. I just don't agree that the setting material assumes that magic items are so common that this would be a major trend.
I agree. The rules and the settings (most of them, anyway) don't assume magic items are so common this would be a major trend. However, the characters depicted as such are the very rare ultra-heroic characters (hence the term "Iconic") who it would be safe to assume have acquired the requisite magic items, spells and feats to do so. I never assume that all female sorcerers dress like Seoni, or all female barbarians dress like Amiri. I assume that those two characters have the magic items and/or spells and/or feats to do it.
What's the population of Golarion (I don't use the setting, so I don't know)? What's the adult female percentage of that? What's the total number of females that have been depicted as "cheesecake" in Paizo products? What percentage of the total adult female population is that number? I'm willing it to bet that it is sure as heck tiny enough that you can't assume that dressing in such a fashion AND possessing the right magic items/spells/feats is common.
You make some good points , Hunter. That stuff can be rationalized.
For me, it all comes back to aesthetics. I, like quite a few other people, just don't care for the amount of cheesecake. This is an issue on which there can be no single right or wrong answer. You've got your comfort level and expectations and I have mine.
At this point, I'm not sure what else I can add. I've suggested that more diversity in the illos of women and less fanservice would be nice. That's all. I'll chime in if I think of something, or if anyone has a question for me.
-Ewan
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Forgive the spelling errors to come.
What can a Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch wear as Armor?
Not a heck of a lot.
But they have magics to protect them, and common sense I hope.
The main complaint here, as far as I can see, is logic in dress code, ie; Why is the Fighter/Wizard wearing a thong a lacy wear?
Because they can. Because Sex sales, because the artist/editors/writers liked the idea.
You don't like it, then don't do it in your game, It is that Gut simple.
This isn't a major brain teaser, or it should not be.
I love the art in Paizo game books and if they change it, I will be really sad.
Seoni is my fav. cannon character and if she started wearing a bunch of bulky clothing, I think that would be stupid when you consider her background.
If you don't like the art in the books, two options, black sharpie marker or stop buying them.
Simple really.
Seoni, Alahazra, and Feiya are definitely easy targets for being female characters with prototype female comic book physiques and stripperific outfits.Sorry this is off topic, but what clubs do y'all go to? I never see interesting costumes. ;)
Heh, I can tell you that it must be quite a nice one. Don't think I've ever seen any exotic dancers wearing custom-tailored $2000+ outfits before. Then again, I live in Charlotte and not Hollywood. *shrugs*
;)
@Mothman - as for the cup size, I imagine that is based on bra sales. Which means breast enlargement surgery is a factor in that. I bet if you checked older trends it would only be a B cup before that procedure became popular.
Just saying.
Actually, a good portion of that is the increased prevalence of growth hormones found in foods these days. Looking at women who are still too young to have had such procedures, there is a pretty remarkable difference compared to when I was the same age. I've seen more than a few news stories about it over the past few years as people try to raise awareness over the issue.
Something else to consider is that bust-size is rather susceptible to weight gain. Given the increases in weight across-the-board here in the USA (for men and women) over the past couple generations, that might also be partly to blame. Really we'd need to compare all three measurement over time (along with height/weight) to even begin to draw any conclusions.
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Seoni, Alahazra, and Feiya are definitely easy targets for being female characters with prototype female comic book physiques and stripperific outfits.Sorry this is off topic, but what clubs do y'all go to? I never see interesting costumes. ;)
No kidding, normally all I have seen when they even bother to have a "costume" is naughty nurse, school girl(which is hands down the most common), secretary/teach/librarian, ... *looks around* what?
Seoni, Alahazra, and Feiya are definitely easy targets for being female characters with prototype female comic book physiques and stripperific outfits.Sorry this is off topic, but what clubs do y'all go to? I never see interesting costumes. ;)
Tv Tropes definition of Stripperific
Warning: Every visit to TV Tropes risks a couple of hours wasted reading about tropes.
Are we still going to PAGE TEN on this nonsense!?!?!?
let's DO THIS!
Until Seoni complains about sexism, we're in the CLEARRRRR!
I want an all-nude AP. We're more than halfway there already...almost NONE of the monsters EVER wear clothes.Why not have the villains use the nude bomb. Points for those that know where that is referenced from.
Missed it by >.< THAT much!
M'Tuk'Tuk's Human companion is allergic to cheesecake.
All the more for M'Tuk'Tuk
Hmm, didn't we just have an AP where an insane nymph was the BBEG? I'd say we're on the right track! ;)
Seriously, just substitute the Earth Defense Force from Star Blazers with a cabal of frisky fey and we're good to go. Be one hell of a TPK reprising that scene...
Are we still going to PAGE TEN on this nonsense!?!?!?
let's DO THIS!
Until Seoni complains about sexism, we're in the CLEARRRRR!
No man take it to ELEVEN its one louder.
Also, that blogger is going places, let me tell you.
Yup, straight to the hospital for treatment of the ulcer she's going to get for the ridiculous rage.
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It's not the occasional cleavage, or even Seoni's ridiculous outfit that bugs me. It's the fact that so many iconics seem to be able to carry every possession, even the house they inherited six years ago, strapped to their friggin backs! How many dagumb weapons does one man really need?
God I miss Elmore's works.
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It's not the occasional cleavage, or even Seoni's ridiculous outfit that bugs me. It's the fact that so many iconics seem to be able to carry every possession, even the house they inherited six years ago, strapped to their friggin backs! How many dagumb weapons does one man really need?
God I miss Elmore's works.
Hey, it's D&D. Golf Bag syndrome gotta represent !
Actually, the iconics with a ton of stuff on their backs look a lot more like how I'd picture my characters after a few levels of adventuring.
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It's the fact that so many iconics seem to be able to carry every possession, even the house they inherited six years ago, strapped to their friggin backs!
I'm not exceptionally strong and I routinely (weekly at any rate) carry a pack that weighs a minimum of 30lbs (I've gotten it to 50-60lbs but needed help getting it off). I'm pretty sure people with 15+ strength can get away with a lot more than that.
It's heroic fantasy. You fight dragons and demons and undead and the servants of evil gods. Your character can shrug off fireballs if they're experienced enough and go toe to toe with creatures the size of a tractor trailer. It's heroic fantasy.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad, wrong or excessive. It just means you don't like it, and one assumes you aren't being forced to play it.
Now, if the Bestiary followed the ideas of the Monster Girls Encyclopedia, that would be a different story...
But this is just heroic fantasy. If you don't want it in your game, don't include it. Mention that not even the idealized, heroic examples of characters - those veritable demigods that lesser heroes aspire to - can be attractive or scantily clan. Maybe the gods in your game world are puritanical. If that works for you, it works for you. That doesn't make it good or right, it just means it works for you.
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It's not the occasional cleavage, or even Seoni's ridiculous outfit that bugs me. It's the fact that so many iconics seem to be able to carry every possession, even the house they inherited six years ago, strapped to their friggin backs! How many dagumb weapons does one man really need?
That actually reminds me of my days in the army. I forget how much everything weighed, M-16, flak vest, LBA, ruck etc but I remember it was awfully close to my own body weight. Yeah couldn't do more than a fast walk or painful jog with all of it, but you could carry it for a really long way. With a good ruck aka backpack. 15 miles in X amount of time(I forget the time but it was a pretty fast pace/jog). So I am not to shocked if adventures carried a ton of stuff and then off loaded most of it at a camp near the dungeon and took less in with them. Of course thats what NPC's are for to watch your stuff.
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Now, if the Bestiary followed the ideas of the Monster Girls Encyclopedia, that would be a different story...Quite right. So, you're working on a Monster Girls Encyclopedia PFRPG book with creature stats, right?
For those who don't know what this is, here's a link: Monster Girls Encyclopedia page 1 (WARNING: NSFW!)
Well the images are not bad, but then I started reading the text... yeah oh so really far from work safe.
Well the images are not bad, but then I started reading the text... yeah oh so really far from work safe.
From a purely technical point of view, the art wasn't bad. However, most of it I found very, very disturbing and incredibly un-erotic...
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From a purely technical point of view, the art wasn't bad. However, most of it I found very, very disturbing and incredibly un-erotic...
Who cares about the art the write ups were comedy gold! Especially the Cockatrice. Would've put a whole new spin on a group that feared the 'arcane turkeys' (all failed the very easy Know: Arcana checks).
Well the images are not bad, but then I started reading the text... yeah oh so really far from work safe.From a purely technical point of view, the art wasn't bad. However, most of it I found very, very disturbing and incredibly un-erotic...
I had to look as well, of course (if there´s a link...). I found some of the images disturbing also, and you could interpret some as being in the jailbait area. I´m glad paizo is not going in that direction, I´m not a fan of manga artwork - not from a technical viewpoint, but rather from the imagery.
Stefan
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I had to look as well, of course (if there´s a link...). I found some of the images disturbing also, and you could interpret some as being in the jailbait area.Well the images are not bad, but then I started reading the text... yeah oh so really far from work safe.From a purely technical point of view, the art wasn't bad. However, most of it I found very, very disturbing and incredibly un-erotic...
Yeah. I don't see the complaints on the Inner Sea Primer(actually I hope they keep using that artist. Her original designs are pretty awesome), but that stuff? No thanks to quite a bit of it.
And that's not even getting into the text. Yeeesh.
God I miss Elmore's works.
I hope you are being facetious.... The man is the beef/cheese cake king, G-Strings, thigh highs, boobs. I love Elmore's work but it had its time and place (80/90's and on the side of a shagging wagon).
His dragons were the best, and I tear up every time I see the picture of Laurana standing over Sturm.
His dragons were the best, and I tear up every time I see the picture of Laurana standing over Sturm.
This one? The death of Sturm
Larry Elmore is the man who pretty much formed the image of D&D in the 80ies singlehandedly, during his time as a TSR employee. His art will forever be connected to D&D, I guess. Yes, quite some of his art was (80ies) cheesy, probably more so than todays PF art is. This topic seems to be part of fantasy RPG as long as it exists, I guess.
Stefan
His dragons were the best, and I tear up every time I see the picture of Laurana standing over Sturm.This one? The death of Sturm
Larry Elmore is the man who pretty much formed the image of D&D in the 80ies singlehandedly, during his time as a TSR employee. His art will forever be connected to D&D, I guess. Yes, quite some of his art was (80ies) cheesy, probably more so than todays PF art is. This topic seems to be part of fantasy RPG as long as it exists, I guess.
Stefan
Thats the one. Saddest part of the Dragon Lance saga... His wife was one of his models.
Yup, straight to the hospital for treatment of the ulcer she's going to get for the ridiculous rage.Also, that blogger is going places, let me tell you.
Rage makes you contract Helicobacter pylori or take NSAIDs long term? Wow, learn something new every day...
It's not the occasional cleavage, or even Seoni's ridiculous outfit that bugs me. It's the fact that so many iconics seem to be able to carry every possession, even the house they inherited six years ago, strapped to their friggin backs! How many dagumb weapons does one man really need?
God I miss Elmore's works.
Everybody knows encumbrance is an optional rule ;)
Now, if the Bestiary followed the ideas of the Monster Girls Encyclopedia, that would be a different story...Quite right. So, you're working on a Monster Girls Encyclopedia PFRPG book with creature stats, right?
For those who don't know what this is, here's a link: Monster Girls Encyclopedia page 1 (WARNING: NSFW!)
Those poor human male sailors...