Discussion of this was turning into a threadjack of a RPG SuperStar thread, so I'm going to try to get that conversation going here rather than derail that thread.
I agree, level 1 is probably the weakest level for a wizard. But they're still just not that bad. 4 1st level spells aren't all that likely to run out before the rest of the party's run out of hit points if you're a little reserved about how you burn them.
Yes, but that's the thing. The only way you are useful as a Wizard is by casting spells. And there is more to the game than combat. Sure, I could memorize 2 magic missiles and 1 sleep (the bonded object can cast any spell without prep). But, what about the utility spells?
Two things come to mind:
1) IMHO, a 1st level Wizard who prepares Magic Missile is a sucker. In the longer run, MM has a lot of longevity as a 1st level spell and will be prepared long after Sleep has run its course. But at level 1? Junk. As you point out, you're working with limited spell slots. At this point, MM is just not a good use of them -- it barely outperforms the 1d3 damage unlimited cantrips or the more-useful-at-1st-level school powers, although, yes, it does outperform them in several respects.
2) You have Scribe Scroll. This is actually where I'd spend a lot of my starting gold. This is an excellent way to make sure you can have Comprehend Languages if you really need it without sacrificing offensive load for it if you so choose. (Although Bonded Object is also fantastic for that same purpose, level 1 scrolls are dirt cheap.)
1) If they save, the spell totally fails, wasted turn and spell.
Sure. But mostly that won't happen at level 1. Get multiple targets with Color Spray or Sleep or Grease and the odds that every target saves are very small.
2) A smarter creature with a bow can hold it's action to counter spellcasters at early level.
If that happens, congratulations, level 1 spellcaster! You kept that creature with a bow from doing something more useful that round. (At level 1, the AC bonuses for cover and/or dropping prone to cast aren't that small, either.)
3) If they get initiative, they can get in close and force the caster to cast defensively.
Five foot step and cast. Most of the things that beat that aren't going to be in play at level 1.
4) Forget Elves... Undead, contructs, creatures with high will saves, other casters can counterspell!
What has a "high" will save at level 1?
Who's counterspelling at level 1?
Undead and constructs, if encountered at level 1, are generally the rest of the party's time to shine. You don't need to be the star of every encounter.
5) Level 1 is pretty treacherous. If something crits you, chances are decent that you are dead. This spell becomes exponentially less powerful at level 2-3... so let the PCs have their fun for 1 level.
That's not really any different from what any other non-Wizard class is dealing with, though. Probable easier confirm because of generally poor AC, I guess.
6) How about throwing in an encounter while they are on horseback or in a carriage or while it's windy/rainy. Those encounters would require a concentration check.
Who can afford horses at level 1?
Really, if the GM is having to try to limit your dominance at level 1 as a wizard, you've already won. :)
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1) IMHO, a 1st level Wizard who prepares Magic Missile is a sucker. In the longer run, MM has a lot of longevity as a 1st level spell and will be prepared long after Sleep has run its course. But at level 1? Junk. As you point out, you're working with limited spell slots. At this point, MM is just not a good use of them -- it barely outperforms the 1d3 damage unlimited cantrips or the more-useful-at-1st-level school powers, although, yes, it does outperform them in several respects.
Agreed 100%. I play a wizard and never prepared magic missile at 1st or even 2nd level. Pathfinder added those handy low level "zap" powers for a reason. Even before Pathfinder, I prefered a crossbow at 1st level, with my spell slots going to defensive/battlefield control spells like obscuring mist, expeditious retreat, or even grease.
2) You have Scribe Scroll. This is actually where I'd spend a lot of my starting gold. This is an excellent way to make sure you can have Comprehend Languages if you really need it without sacrificing offensive load for it if you so choose. (Although Bonded Object is also fantastic for that same purpose, level 1 scrolls are dirt cheap.)
Agreed again. Scrolls are your friends. Use them and love them.
Anyway, I think the whole "1st level wizards" are weak thing comes when you focus too much on their spellcasting. It's self-imposed weakness. There are things you can do to contribute, and there are resources available. Not saying you should go wading into melee at 1st level, but it is quite viable to do things to pace yourself so you have your spells for the "big boss fight" at the end. Also, as a couple of posters pointed out, many 1st level wizards will actually have 4 first level spells per day - which is plenty, especially using the methods Dire Mongoose advises above.
My 2 coppers.
With the d6 for HP, unlimited cantrips and up to 4 1st level spells a day, 1st level Wizards are much, much better and less soft and squishy than they used to be. This particular applies if you use point buy and Con becomes the second stat after Int.
I'd say that they still run a bit behind some of other classes at that level, though, although they definitely close the gap by 5th level, and arguably pull away at some point after that until high levels, when they are pretty well-acknowledged to be one of, if not THE most powerful class.
Agreed 100%. I play a wizard and never prepared magic missile at 1st or even 2nd level. Pathfinder added those handy low level "zap" powers for a reason.
As a semi-random aside relating to both of those points, if one was the kind of player who did like casting a lot of Magic Missile at 1st level, Pathfinder lets you pick Evocation Specialist and do it 3+INT times per day before even dipping into your spell slots.
The Wizard is a vulnerable class but it has amazing firepower even at low levels hence the glass cannon effect.
The optimized Level 1 Wizard will have Int 20, 4 Level 1 Spell slots (if specialist) and will probably memorize Sleep or Color Spray for 3-4 of those slots.
Considering that his Save DC is 16 the success rate is pretty good that things are going fail saves.
Utility use is primarily handled through cantrips and scrolls although if the dungeon is cleared other spells might be memorized.
Color Spray isn't a complete game winner as it's range and template aren't great vs ranged attackers and a decent number of things are sleep resistant or immune.
Even if the Wizard is only successful in 2 of the assumed 5 encounters with a SoS effect that still 40% of the encounters that the Wizard was critical in winning which seems like he's hitting above average (25%).
Granted the Rogue has a ton of stuff to do out of combat and the cleric can impact the game with both casting and martial skill but the ability to decide an encounter with one action is pretty nice even if it comes with a major hit in durability.
Great points. I am currently playing a wizard and found that he did just fine at 1st level. With a decent DEX I was doing reasonably well with my Crossbow.
My spells were focused on battle field control and helping the team rather than slaying monsters. I think it's all about how you view playing. If it's an arm race with your team mates for the most kills then you are going to feel a bit anemic but if it's a group effort then the wizard is just another cog in the machine.
Color Spray isn't a complete game winner as it's range and template aren't great vs ranged attackers and a decent number of things are sleep resistant or immune.
Well, note that Color Spray isn't a sleep effect. But, yeah, undead/vermin/etc. still largely have your number there.
Even if the Wizard is only successful in 2 of the assumed 5 encounters with a SoS effect that still 40% of the encounters that the Wizard was critical in winning which seems like he's hitting above average (25%).
That's pretty much my angle, too. Honestly, at any level, the way that I tend to play a wizard is such that in an average encounter I'm doing a little less than pulling my weight, but am MVP when it really counts. At level 1 you don't exactly have the freedom or versatility for that, so it's more: "Do your best to completely win the encounters/challenges where you can be useful, so the party saves other limited resources for the encounters where you can't."
Well, note that Color Spray isn't a sleep effect. But, yeah, undead/vermin/etc. still largely have your number there.
I think I accidentally combined points about Color Spray (Bad Template) with points I wanted to make about Sleep (good range, effect has lots of limitations).
They both have their place in the game but memorizing one to the exclusion of the other at low level is problematic.
My gaming group tends to start at level one alot. I dont think we have ever finished a champagne. Due to this fact i've had alot of experience with low level casters.
Wizards really have everything they need at level 1. A constant light source, crowd control via daze/grease/obscuring mist/hypnosis/sleep/charm and it goes on. They have aoe dmg via buring hands, summons , enlarge , reduce , single target dmg and disablers. There level 1 spell list literally does everything. Even the spells I dont see other people using like animate rope is good. Entangling ftw? The level 1 wizard isnt good? Try they are the most useful and versital class i've ever played instead.
Edit - Hell , they can even remove mind control effects via protection from ( insert evil/law/whatever here). They are also the best at setting off traps with unseen servant dragging 100 lb of stuff in a bag or using open/close to set off the door or chest trap an range.
I think I accidentally combined points about Color Spray (Bad Template) with points I wanted to make about Sleep (good range, effect has lots of limitations).They both have their place in the game but memorizing one to the exclusion of the other at low level is problematic.
Definitely. (Although your standard level 1-2 sorcerer, probably having had to make that choice, is still a pretty effective character overall in my opinion.)
at 1st level eveone has the same thac0 and ive seen a wiz out perform a fighter in melee. he was just luckyer with his roles.
he put mage armor and shield to good use his staff dose a d6 and he had a hevy crossbow for ranged.
Even their level 0 spells are great. Debuff from touch of fatigue, message for setting up ambushes, open/close to set off traps, detect magic. Im a big fan of the level 1 and 2 wizard.
Edit - like zotpot said also, If you have an ok dex , which you should for ranged touch attacks, at level one you just as a fighter or ranger with a crossbow.
I think the case for the strength of the wizard being deceptively powerful at 1st is pretty easily made.
The interesting thing is what do you do with it once you acknowledge that level 1 PF Wizards are not level 1 1e Magic Users. They actually have the ability to impact more than 1 encounter per day.
In my mind the presence of Arcane Magic and the ability to KO an encounter with a SoL effect pretty much dictates that virtually all intelligent foes adopt some sort of anti-magic user combat techniques.
Humanoids should always have either a ranged weapon or a thrown weapon and they should know to direct their fire at "obvious" magic users. Once the magic user reveals himself then it should invariably be about neutralizing the caster in some way. Charge if possible, try to flank so that even with a 5' step the caster is in strike range, Combat Maneuvers particularly grappling can all be utilized by intelligent foes to make sure that life for the low level wizard is problematic ;)
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Discussion of this was turning into a threadjack of a RPG SuperStar thread, so I'm going to try to get that conversation going here rather than derail that thread.
We just gave our 1st level Wizard Precocious Apprentice and the Acid Splatter Reserve Feat and let him go.
He's managed to make it to level 3 without getting slaughtered, which is more than I can say for the Rogue, who's gotten his ass taken out in every single combat we've had.
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Bit of a sidetrack but talking about low-level wizard power I think Color Spray should be nerfed back to its pre-3rd ed version. In that before rolling anything you had to roll a d6 to check the number of "potential" targets you could affect (vs. current version of affecting everything in the cone). The spell being what it is and compared to other spells at its level is too powerful and open ended.
Roll it BACK!
carry on...
I think the case for the strength of the wizard being deceptively powerful at 1st is pretty easily made.
The interesting thing is what do you do with it once you acknowledge that level 1 PF Wizards are not level 1 1e Magic Users. They actually have the ability to impact more than 1 encounter per day.
In my mind the presence of Arcane Magic and the ability to KO an encounter with a SoL effect pretty much dictates that virtually all intelligent foes adopt some sort of anti-magic user combat techniques.
Humanoids should always have either a ranged weapon or a thrown weapon and they should know to direct their fire at "obvious" magic users. Once the magic user reveals himself then it should invariably be about neutralizing the caster in some way. Charge if possible, try to flank so that even with a 5' step the caster is in strike range, Combat Maneuvers particularly grappling can all be utilized by intelligent foes to make sure that life for the low level wizard is problematic ;)
Ya, it can be a problem if they get in close to you. At low levels I try to negate the disadvantage by hanging out near the back or close enough to the others that the enemy will provok if they do for me. Pre level 4 one of my favorite actions is daze or mage hand
Bit of a sidetrack but talking about low-level wizard power I think Color Spray should be nerfed back to its pre-3rd ed version. In that before rolling anything you had to roll a d6 to check the number of "potential" targets you could affect (vs. current version of affecting everything in the cone). The spell being what it is and compared to other spells at its level is too powerful and open ended.
I don't think it would make that big of a difference in practice, honestly. It's just not that big of a cone. Catching 2-3 enemies in it is pretty good aim/maneuvering. Granted, maybe you have that odd case where you find 4 people clumped up just right in range and then roll a 1 on d6, but I think that'd be much in the minority.
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Ah I see some people have already made the point I am trying to make. Ill hide my long winded story behind a “spoiler” button.
Now this happened perhaps 13-14 years ago, around 97 or 98. We were playing 2nd edition. We were facing the great big litch at the end of the dungeon.
I had a half elf Ranger/ Bard, with the “lore master” kit. I think we were all fairly high level, my character was 12/13, and the wizard was 12 level so on and so forth.
I remember my character scouted ahead and sprung a trap. It had some sort of death spell on it, with no save, and it killed my character.
I think a raise dead was cast on my character, or maybe it was a resurrection, I don’t remember.
Anyways, my character was back from the dead with 1 hit point and no spells and I think he had lost a level. We won’t go into the beating my character had suffered at the hands of a vampire which drained him down to 6/6 level, while the party wizard was “conserving his spells”, the previous weekend. We did have the satisfaction of watching the wizard try to take on an invisible stalker later on that night. Fortunately we found a cache of scrolls with restoration spells. But again that is another story for another time.
We were faced with a stone elevator leading down. I wanted to rest and well get my spells and hit points back, but the Wizard wanted to push on. I think he mentioned something about not wanting the litch to recover his spells, we pressed on into the stone elevator. We set off a lightning bolt trap. In those days a lightning bolt ricocheted off of stone walls, and we were in the stone elevator.
Mind you I had 1 hp and no spells. I was getting ready to erase that one hit point again, when by dumb luck (or the DM didn’t want to kill me twice in five minutes) so luckily the corner my character huddled in, the lightning bolt hit the other characters around my character, but missed him.
We arrived at the basement, and there was the litch. Not really quite sure what to do, my character went off and did his “hide in shadows” and “move silently”. The rest of the party engaged the litch.
I then crept over to the litche's treasure (which was in a big pile behind his throne), and began sifting through it, using my characters Bardic Knowledge, to try and identify the Litche's Phylactery.
My character found it, I think it was an hourglass or something like that, and broke it.
So even with a single hit point, and no spells, I was able to find a way to make a useful contribution to the battle.
Now I know that this isn’t the situation that a 1st level wizard would find himself in, but in my experience, there is always something you can do.
With d6 HP, Favored class bonus, racial weapon proficiencies, unlimited cantrips, School powers, arcane bond, etc. Wizards are just fine at 1st level.
Bit of a sidetrack but talking about low-level wizard power I think Color Spray should be nerfed back to its pre-3rd ed version. In that before rolling anything you had to roll a d6 to check the number of "potential" targets you could affect (vs. current version of affecting everything in the cone). The spell being what it is and compared to other spells at its level is too powerful and open ended.
Roll it BACK!
carry on...
If you are rolling it back, gimme the 2nd ed Chromatic Orb !!! xD
That spell was a killer .-
Chromatic Orb form 2E Wizard's Handbook.
level 1 spell.
Chromatic Orb (Alteration, Evocation)
Range 0
Components V,S,M
Duration Special
Casting Time 1
Are of Effect One creature
Saving Throw Negate
This spell causes a 4 inch diameter sphere to appear in the caster's
hand. Within the limits described below, the sphere can appear in a
variety of colors; each color indicates a different special power. The
caster can hurl the sphere at an opponent up to 30 yards away,
providing there are no barriers between the caster and the target. If
the target is no more than 10 yards away, the caster's to hit roll is
made with a +3 bonus. If the target is 10-20 yards away, the
caster's roll is made with a +2 bonus. If the target is 20-30 yards
away, the caster's roll is made with a +1 bonus.
If the Chromatic Orb misses its target, it dissipates without effect.
If the target creature makes a successful saving throw, the Chromatic
Orb is also ineffective. Otherwise, the color of the Orb determines
the amount of damage inflicted and its special power as summarized
below. The caster can create a single Orb of any color listed for his
level or lower; for instance, a 3rd level wizard can create an orange,
red, or white Orb.
Light from the Orb causes the victim to become surrounded by light to
a radius of 20 feet, as if effected by a light spell. The effect lasts
for 1 round, during which time the victim makes his attack rolls and
saving throws at a -4 penalty, and his AC is penalized by 4.
Heat from the Orb is intense enough to melt one cubic yard of ice.
The victim suffers a loss of 1 point of Strength and 1 point of
Dexterity, or for victims without these attributes -1 to hit and 1
point penalty to AC, for 1 round.
Fire from the Orb ignites all combustible materials within 3 feet of
the victim.
Blindness from the Orb causes the victim to become blind as per the
spell. The effect lasts for 1 round per level of the caster.
Stinking Cloud from the Orb surrounds the victim in a 5 foot radius
noxious cloud. The victim must save vs. Poison or will be reeling and
unable to attack unless he leaves the area of the vapors.
Magnetism from the Orb has an effect only if the victim is wearing
armor made from iron. The iron armor becomes magically magnetized for
3d4 rounds. Other iron objects within 3 feet of the victim will stick
tight to the victim; only Dispel Magic or similar spell can release the
stuck items. At the end of the spell's duration, the stuck items are
released.
Paralysis from the Orb causes the victim to become paralyzed for 2d8+4
rounds; a successful saving throw vs. Paralyzation halves the number of
rounds.
Petrification from the Orb turns the victim into stone. If the victim
successfully saves vs. Petrification, he avoids turning into stone and
instead is slowed as per the spell for 2d4 rounds.
Death from the Orb causes the victim to die. If the victim
successfully saves vs. Death Magic, he avoids death and instead is
paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds.
Level of Caster Color of Orb Hit Points of Damage Special Power
1st White 1d4 Light
2nd Red 1d6 Heat
3rd Orange 1d8 Fire
4th Yellow 1d10 Blindness
5th Green 1d12 Stinking Cloud
6th Turquoise 2d4 Magnetism
7th Blue 2d8 Paralysis
10th Violet Slow Petrification
12th Black Paralysis Death
this is the closest one that i´ve found
Chromatic Orb
Evocation [Force]
Level: Wiz/Sor 1
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: 1 creature
Duration: See text
Saving throw: See text
Spell resistance: No
This spell causes a 4-inch diameter sphere of swirling colors to appear in the casters hand. When thrown, it flies unerringly towards its target. The effects the orb has on its target vary with the level of the caster who cast the spell. A 1st sphere deals 1d4 damage and blinds its target for 1 round. A 2nd level sphere deals 1d6 damage and inflicts pain upon the target, making him slowed for 1d4 rounds. A 3rd level sphere deals 1d10 damage and sets target on fire, dealing additional 1d6 fire damage for 3 rounds. A 4th level sphere deals 1d10 damage and blinds the target for 1d8 rounds. A 5th level sphere deals 1d12 damage and stuns the target for 3 rounds. A 6th level sphere deals 2d6 damage and target becomes nauseated for 1d6 rounds. A 7th level sphere deals 2d8 damage and exhausts the target for 1d4 rounds. A 8th level sphere deals 2d8 damage and paralyzes the target for 1d6 rounds. A 9th level sphere deals 2d10 damage and/or petrifies the target.
A successful saving throw negates any negative effects of the orb, but still takes the inital damage.
A spheres level is equal to the highest level the wizard or sorcerer can cast at that particular time
Back on topic, i agree, 1st lvl wizards carry more punch in pathfinder, that actually make them pretty useful, the increase HD and the School abilities, give them the extra edge that they needed.-
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I don't think it would make that big of a difference in practice, honestly. It's just not that big of a cone. Catching 2-3 enemies in it is pretty good aim/maneuvering. Granted, maybe you have that odd case where you find 4 people clumped up just right in range and then roll a 1 on d6, but I think that'd be much in the minority.
Still too powerful, considering the primary effect - and all the secondary and lingering effects vs. level of potential foes. You can hit multiple 4HD foes that can be blinded and stunned (stunned for 2 rounds minimum = death) it's far more effective than Sleep.
Remember, there are no more fractional HDs like there was in 1st/2nd so Sleep, everything now has a full HD yet the kept the 4HD cap. So now you can affect less, and there is a save.Color Spray - too powerful for its level, the d6 check from 2nd ed is exactly that, a check against the spells power + it introduces a variable which makes it less reliable. When it comes to caster that is always a good thing.
If you are rolling it back, gimme the 2nd ed Chromatic Orb !!! xD
Chromatic Orb (2nd ed)- have to roll to hit (not ranged touch, just bonus to hit based off range), have to fail save for effect.
That being said the 2nd ed Chromatic Orb was not the best design consideration. I broke it up into Lesser, Standard (Chromatic Orb) and greater.
Doesn't seem like much brainpower was put into the 3rd edition Orb
It didn't miss (huge factor), still did damage if saved, and petrified (= Killed) a target one level earlier than its 2nd ed counterpart. So no lesson learned between editions.
I think a maximum total HD restriction might be a workable compromise. I'm not 100% happy that the spell never completely loses utility (unlike Sleep) but the short range template is probably enough a limiter to balance it against sleep.
Discussion of this was turning into a threadjack of a RPG SuperStar thread, so I'm going to try to get that conversation going here rather than derail that thread.
Hopefully the poster you were responding to comments on this thread, many of the comments you've posted sound like they are from a whole different reality. Basically, I agree with you on nearly everything (with one exception pointed out below0. I have even more to add though...
yes, but that's the thing. The only way you are useful as a Wizard is by casting spells. And there is more to the game than combat...
If we're talking about character mechanical ability outside of combat, then aren't skills probably the primary component at low level?
Wizards usually end up with more skill points than most other characters...I just don't understand what the point is here.
I could sort of see this point being made in regards to fighters - but wizards?
Sure, I could memorize 2 magic missiles and 1 sleep
Needs additional comment. Magic Missile sucks at first level. Sleep is awesome at first, but it needs grease, silent image, or color spray to keep it company.
Also, although magic missile certainly improves as you reach mid level, it's never a very good spell, it's an OK "I've got nothing better to do" spell at best.
1) If they save, the spell totally fails, wasted turn and spell.
IF the caster targets a single target and IF the spell provides a saving throw, your opponents chance to save (and thus waste your spell) is still probably in line with a non-casters chance to miss (and thus waste their attack). Of course, the examples of the more effective wizard spells at first level tend to be ones that either effect multiple targets or provide limits on saving throws (or both, in cases like silent image) thus vastly reducing the odds that the turn is wasted. Certainly far less likely than the fighter wasting his attack by missing.
A smarter creature with a bow can hold it's action to counter spellcasters at early level.
Not necessarily as smart as it sounds if the caster guesses what you are holding your action for. Hold actions require specific triggers, meaning if you hold your bow attack until my wizard starts casting, and I guess what you are doing and drop a smokestick or something instead of casting (Or maybe my monkey familiar drops the smokestick first, then I cast freely - cheesy granted, and debatable whether a smokestick is too big for the monkey? Nevertheless, I can confirm a minimum of one GM that allowed it :P), then your action is lost and you lose your target too.
Not to say that holding actions to interrupt casters is always a bad idea, but it's not always a catch all ultimate solution as presented.
3) If they get initiative, they can get in close and force the caster to cast defensively.
I agree with the "5 foot step" response, but let's also not forget that often parties will make this strategy tactically difficult or even impossible just through initial positioning and "marching order". Protecting the caster is kind of a staple in fantasy RPG strategy. Does this poster mean "sometimes" or are they ignoring the standard tactics?
4) Forget Elves... Undead, contructs, creatures with high will saves, other casters can counterspell!
As noted - who is counterspelling at level 1. Heck - who is counterspelling period???
Otherwise, I now have to disagree with the OP on the "rest of the party's chance to shine" There's no reason to hog glory on any encounter, but there's no reason not to contribute on any encounter. The characters that are the most fun to play are able to contribute in any combat.
As for the others, yep, I'm not casting sleep on them. That's why sleep has all those pals like silent image and grease.
Zombies will still stop at the silent image wall (and may be too mindless to even question whether it is real)
Elves...well anything except charm and sleep is going to work ok isn't it?
As for constructs, this is one you hear as the wizard's "Achilles heel" regularly (for any level of wizard) and it's hogwash. At first level I know that it still slips on grease and still can't see through an obscuring mist. Later on a good party buff or a wall of stone or a summoned monster or any other of countless options will suffice.
The idea is to spread out your spells. Sleep is a great spell at first level (potentially broken even) but I'm not going to memorize it exclusively. Lots of other great spells to work with, and when I enter an encounter, I'll use my best spell for the situation.
Essentially, being immune to half a wizard's spells is of little value unless they need to cast more than half their spells dealing with you right?
Level 1 is pretty treacherous. If something crits you, chances are decent that you are dead.
Even if a Wizard has a 10 Con (low - 12 or 14 is going to be more common) and didn't take toughness at first level, it's still going to take 16 damage to one shot kill them. Not sure how "odds are decent" is being defined here, but I would certainly expect any first level party member to go down when critted, but probably not dead - wizards included.
Considering that we would expect the Wizard to be attacked less often, then this is hardly a greater concern for the wizard than other party members...
How about throwing in an encounter while they are on horseback or in a carriage or while it's windy/rainy. Those encounters would require a concentration check.
I don't think being on horseback requires a concentration check - or are we assuming horesback on a galloping horse that the wizard cannot for some reason slow down? If so, isn't this kind of a circumstantial scenario? Kind of like saying archery sucks because maybe there is thick fog or swordplay sucks because maybe you're swimming instead.
Dont worry if we are on horse back at a full gallop in combat ill make my check and cast grease, ending the combat. Even funnier if the are in a carrage lol.
If you are fighting undead at level one then its true you cant color spray to win.... you can grease to win though, it will have the same results when they cant move ever again. Use similar strat for other monsters.
Most of there archers holding to interupt you? Take no action on your turn or delay to end of round. Those 3 guys look preaty foolish now while my team rips there buddies apart. Not to mention I just effectivly crowd controlled three emenies by standing around and picking my nose.
Edit ( and maybe slightly off topic ) - How do you guys use your mage hand spell. I've been using it to make attacks but using a move action to pick up alchemist fire and propel It straight in front of me 15ft... ofcourse there is going to be an enemy 10ft infront of me. So our running house rule is if it makes contact with something you have to make a attack role or they get a reflex check. So what do you guys think. It is one of my favorite attacks, I've also tryed it with javalins. I consider it completely fine since the spell is marked as a 5lb telekinesis. So we ruled it thus with the 5ld limitation.
I dont think we have ever finished a champagne.
Nothing beats a good champagne though!
Lots of pretty good stuff
A few nitpicks:
What makes Magic Missile a decent spell is the fact it hits almost everything, including a few things that are immune to most spells, and almost nothing is immune/resistant to it. So it's a decent spell when you really don't know much about what you are facing, or when other spells are failing against a particular opponent. It's pretty dependable, if thoroughly unspectacular.
On holding action to disrupt, it's a pretty sound, if certainly not foolproof, strategy. It's better if you can do it from concealment, so there is no chance to try the feint you mention.
Regarding having a wide variety of spells to face a wide variety of potential opponents, I highly approve. Of course, many of the would-be powergamers that frequent these boards do the exact opposite by loading up on their best SoD spell and spamming it. Such a player will be highly rewarded on those occasions when this spell is optimal against all the day's encounters and will suck pretty severely when encounters present more varied challenges. To me the challenge and fun of playing a wizard is in the guessing game that daily spell selection is, and the rewards that come from guessing right. Of course, on these boards, wizards always have the optimal build, feats and spells for whatever situation because, you know, they completely rule and every other class is just epic fail. :)
If a 1st level wizard runs out of 1st level spells, he still can...
1. Cast at-will cantrips. In a recent game I played, the party sorcerer did significant damage, including the killing blow, to an undead boss with disrupt undead. Touch of fatigue is also handy for combat and all of the cantrips have valuable uses, especially at 1st level where that +1 HP or +1 to the next saving throw can actually really make a difference. (Also, it's not a combat application, but being able to reflavor Old Maud's Something Strew at the local tavern with prestidigitation may keep you from going hungry for a night ;) ).
2. Use School abilities. Some schools provide additional attacks, some protections, and some other cool abilities.
3. Use skills. I know, I'm a ding dong crazy lady for suggesting something lame like skills. But I play in these really weird campaigns where sometimes between combats, other stuff happens. And I've discovered these skill thingies are really useful in these other stuff parts, and Wizards often have a lot of skills because they're so dang smart. For example, they could craft something useful, translate something, forge a document, or provide the party with information that he knows because of his learnings. The skills EVEN have in combat uses if you don't play weird games like mine--knowledge skills can be used to recognize the abilities and weaknesses of monsters attacking the party, and spellcraft can be used to recognize spells cast by enemy casters.
Are these things better than being able to cast the 1st level spells? That's circumstantial. But the wizard shouldn't just be twiddling his thumbs and doing nothing if he already cast his three spells for the day.
Magic Missile isn't a completely awful spell as force effects are some of the few spells that can harm Incorporeal opposition. However incorporeal creatures aren't exactly common at low levels where they would be a ticket to TPK town.
The primary problem with magic missile is that it's traditional role of quick, accurate direct damage battle spell really isn't as relevant post-2e.
In 1e-2e for example having a scaling direct damage spell that did moderate damage with a low casting time was a godsend in spellcaster duels because a magic missile strike could do a respectable amount of damage in 1e in comparison to base HPs and more importantly would foil opposition casting.
With enough magic missiles prepped you could reasonably prevent the BBEG caster from ever really getting off one of those big bad SoS spells. Of course that's why you'd typically want a broach of shielding to absorb magic missiles but that's a whole other issue.
In the transition to 3e spell casting times were greatly simplified and we got concentration checks, etc to simulate spoiling magical spells but in conjunction with the astronomical increase in HPs the ability to spoil other casters with a rapid volley of Magic Missiles went way down.
In contrast SoS spells especially AoE SoS spells offer a good risk to reward ratio for the fledgling spell caster. Sure it's swinging for a home run each time you cast the spell but on those encounters when you connect with your target the reward is really nice, especially because it can prevent the rest of the party from having to waste resources (HPs, healing spells, consumables,etc).
Obviously there are going to be encounters like undead when your contribution to the party's success go way down but presumably that's when other characters like the cleric step up and do the lion's share of "winning" the encounter. Social and skill challenges will be the time for the Rogue to shine, Fighter gets to do his thing.
Even if the odds don't favor you that day and you are only successful with 1 of your memorized SoL spells that means that you can effectively end an encounter in one shot which the whole party benefits from.
Also keep in mind that with a moderately decent dexterity the Wizard isn't exactly a slouch at ranged combat with a Light Crossbow or a Bow (if Elven). Sure you are never going to the Big Damn Hero playing "I'll waste him with my crossbow" but at 1st and 2nd level a Wizard with a good Dex should be able to hit fairly often.
So even if your spells aren't contributing that much you can contribute with some direct damage.
Wizards generally have pretty decent skill points even at low level and with the elimination of cross-class penalties can generally invest in a smattering of useful active skills.
All in all I think the Wizard even at 1st level measures up really well. It's a lot less of a zero-to-hero progression than it was in the past.
3. Use skills. I know, I'm a ding dong crazy lady for suggesting something lame like skills. But I play in these really weird campaigns where sometimes between combats, other stuff happens. And I've discovered these skill thingies are really useful in these other stuff parts, and Wizards often have a lot of skills because they're so dang smart.
Thanks for making me giggle. And count me as a ding dong crazy old dude running a really weird campaign that sounds kind a' similar.
3. Use skills. I know, I'm a ding dong crazy lady for suggesting something lame like skills. But I play in these really weird campaigns where sometimes between combats, other stuff happens. And I've discovered these skill thingies are really useful in these other stuff parts, and Wizards often have a lot of skills because they're so dang smart.Thanks for making me giggle. And count me as a ding dong crazy old dude running a really weird campaign that sounds kind a' similar.
You can ever try use this... skills? as you call them with your level 0 spells like prestidigitation, ghost sounds, dancing lights and the like.
When my party mocks me I use prestidigitation to ensure they will never eat a hot meal again MUAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Or you could ready an action to keep turning the page of thier favorite book that they are trying to read MUAHAHA!.... .. . On a more serious note if your being tracked my things with scent you can aways make a bag of marbles smell like you and then just start throwing them while your running away.
3. Use skills. I know, I'm a ding dong crazy lady for suggesting something lame like skills. But I play in these really weird campaigns where sometimes between combats, other stuff happens. And I've discovered these skill thingies are really useful in these other stuff parts, and Wizards often have a lot of skills because they're so dang smart.
I laughed. Another Dilly Bar of goodness from DQ.
Gonna have to start keeping points.
Greg
so i was thinking about this from a more numbers perspective. assume elite array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. i chose this because it allows a more apples to apples comparison of the classes. i'm also ignoring race as it makes it easier to just focus on the class.
int 15 (+2)
dex 14 (+2)
etc.now in combat, at worst, a wizard is going to hit with a crossbow exactly as often as any other non fullBAB class. even a bow/crossbow specialist is going to be only +5 to hit with these sort of stats, which only translates into about .7 HP in extra damage per round.
so mechanically, for ranged attacks, there doesn't really seem to be much difference between a wizard and any other class at first level.
on the skill points front, 4 per level is likely to be as good or better than everything but the rogue, bard, and ranger (with these stats, it seems unlikely that a typical barbarian, monk, or druid build is going to put higher than a 10 in int).
now it's true that a level 1 wizard is really squishy with the lowest HP and likely lowest AC as well, but that effectively is going to usually only mean about a 20% greater chance of getting hit than most other classes.
frankly, even without bringing spells into it, a first level wizard doesn't really seem that much worse off than any other class.
Except most optimizers are going to put the second best score in Con, so your calculations are one off.
And you can't exactly eliminate race from the equation, since the wizard will put that +2 in Int, which does dookey for his ability to hit with a bow, and the bow specialist is going to put it in Dex, so your calculations are now 2 off.
The bow specialist is also going to have feats like Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, and those would be really non-optimal choices for the wizard.
So mechanically, the wizard isn't hopeless with his crosssbow, and it's useful for him to do if he doesn't have a relevant spell for that encounter or just wants to conserve his spells, but the bow specialist will leave him in the dust in the category of sticking pointy things into fleshy things at a distance. Even at first level. As it should be.
Except most optimizers are going to put the second best score in Con, so your calculations are one off.
actually, i completely disagree with this assertion. i'm genuinely curious to know why you think this is the case.
Brian's correct -- go anywhere that optimizers are talking about how to crank out the wizard class and they will always say: INT highest, CON next. Really the only semi point of debate is how much the rest of the stats get dumped to achieve that.
You can disagree about whether you think that's smart or not, but it is what most optimizers are going to do. Take a poll and it'll probably come out close to 100%.
Except most optimizers are going to put the second best score in Con, so your calculations are one off.
actually, i completely disagree with this assertion. i'm genuinely curious to know why you think this is the case.
And you can't exactly eliminate race from the equation, since the wizard will put that +2 in Int, which does dookey for his ability to hit with a bow, and the bow specialist is going to put it in Dex, so your calculations are now 2 off.actually, i didn't ignore it for the bowman. +3 dex, +1 BAB, +1 weapon focus = +5. i merely ignored race for purposes of the wizard since it is possible that someone sometime might play a wizard without either an int bonus or a dex bonus.
The bow specialist is also going to have feats like Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, and those would be really non-optimal choices for the wizard.this is probably my fault for using the word specialist since what i meant was a combat class that's choosing to focus on bow. so no, except for a ranged attack human fighter, no one is going to have all those feats at first level.
So mechanically, the wizard isn't hopeless with his crosssbow, and it's useful for him to do if he doesn't have a relevant spell for that encounter or just wants to conserve his spells, but the bow specialist will leave him in the dust in the category of sticking pointy things into fleshy things at a distance. Even at first level. As it should be.well, i never claimed a wizard was as good, just comparable on average to most other classes that could be doing ranged support at first level. i mean, after all, even if i grant your point about con vs dex for low level wizard (which i don't) that still only takes the average damage difference to about 1 hp per round. not exactly what i'd call leaving in the dust.
now the edge case of the human bow fighter with all the feats you listed firing into...
DM ninjaed me on your first question. I'm actually not that into optimization myself. We still roll for stats, but I've engaged in enough discussions with good optimizers that I know some of their assumptions.
Thanks for clearing up my wrong assumptions about your post. My bad.
The point I would make is that, for optimizers at least, the human bow fighter or ranger with all those feats isn't the edge case, it's exactly what they would make every time if they were going to use a bow. If they weren't going to take those feats they wouldn't even be using a bow, but would instead concentrate everything on a melee build. Precise Shot it the big one, in my experience. It enables you to fire into melee without the -4 penalty, which is a big deal, and the biggest thing that keeps casual archers like your wizard from being all that effective.
The reason why most Wizards crank Con instead of Dex is that even with a high Dex it's unlikely for you to boost your AC high enough to actually matter much and if you are using a ranged attack it's typically a ranged touch attack past level 2-3 or so. Reflex saves are a concern but most attacks targeting reflex result in Direct Damage.
Each +1 to Con Modifier improves your Fort Saves by 5%, results in +20 Hit Points at level 20, etc.
Considering "Optimized" Wizard uses HPs + Miss percentage or invisibility or mirror images instead of AC I think there is sound tactical reasoning for focusing on Con so much.
Constructs are immune to spells that allow spell resistance, there are many spells that ignore spell resistance anyways.
Dont ignore the fact that low level casters know that they are squishy and that they will take steps to cover thier buts. AKA... Fighting dirty.
The 2 to 3 war dogs he/she bought, fun with caltrops, grease(lighted tourch optional), thrown aneything (lamp oil, acid, vials of skunk spray, vials of quik lime, live poisonus aneything).
The point is most casters have a personal trick or strategy up their sleve to keep them alive and viable and give their enemys a nasty suprise.
Thies guys are smart and think outside the box.
I think that wizards suck at low levels when being discussed online to show that they suck at low levels. If you are playing a wizard in a campaign, you probably already know the general focus of the campaign and the concept you are going for.
For example, if you are playing in a campaign that is going to be undead heavy, you are probably going to learn and prepare different spells than if you are playing in a campaign that has a lot of courtly intrigue.
I have never seen any wizard have "just the right spell" at any level of play. I have seen wizards have the right spell for the game they are in. A good player builds his wizard (or any character for that matter) to fit within the campaign. A good GM doesn't change campaigns just to screw with a character that is doing well (or poorly for that matter).
Low level wizards, just like high level wizards, need to pay attention to what is needed at any given moment. Wizards aren't just spell casters. They are highly intelligent spell casters. If they don't need to cast a spell in round X, then they shouldn't. They should know when to boost party members, when to be aggressive, when to be defensive, and when to be utilitarian. They can't do everything, but they can do things right.
I think that wizards suck at low levels when being discussed online to show that they suck at low levels. If you are playing a wizard in a campaign, you probably already know the general focus of the campaign and the concept you are going for.
For example, if you are playing in a campaign that is going to be undead heavy, you are probably going to learn and prepare different spells than if you are playing in a campaign that has a lot of courtly intrigue.
I have never seen any wizard have "just the right spell" at any level of play. I have seen wizards have the right spell for the game they are in. A good player builds his wizard (or any character for that matter) to fit within the campaign. A good GM doesn't change campaigns just to screw with a character that is doing well (or poorly for that matter).
Low level wizards, just like high level wizards, need to pay attention to what is needed at any given moment. Wizards aren't just spell casters. They are highly intelligent spell casters. If they don't need to cast a spell in round X, then they shouldn't. They should know when to boost party members, when to be aggressive, when to be defensive, and when to be utilitarian. They can't do everything, but they can do things right.
It's all about the preparation. I've seen players go "everyone says wizards are the most pwoerful class so I will make a wizard and expect to pwn everything", only to be nigh-worthless to the party and be abandoned when they are the ONLY character unable to handle and survive a rockslide. And I've also seen wizards that make soul-spliced Varsuvius look tame.
All things considered, being able to completely dominate a fight only once per day is still a pretty dang good deal.
And of course, it only gets better from there.
Brian's correct -- go anywhere that optimizers are talking about how to crank out the wizard class and they will always say: INT highest, CON next.Except most optimizers are going to put the second best score in Con, so your calculations are one off.
actually, i completely disagree with this assertion. i'm genuinely curious to know why you think this is the case.
Sigh...
I wish people would READ before they assert. C'mon. You don't have to read or use the guides, but if you don't, then don't assert what is said in them.
The most important thing is you make sure your Intelligence is your top priority, and that Dex and Con, in that order, are number 2 and 3. The rest are dump stats.
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I'm on the low level wizards are fine team, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that a lot of the wizard specialist skills come with some other useful damage/battle field control ability which they will have typically 4-8 uses of, and pretty much obviates the need for magic missile.)
In our first session of the other night, we were able to divide our foes up distracting three of them for a couple rounds with a clever bluff and silent image. So that when the battle was joined we had a few rounds to beat on their leader while the goons killed some "people" who where "sleeping." The other wizard dropped a grease on the leader and his other remaining lackey, so they spent the combat taking AO's. Our DM was amused that we went 5 on 5 with the bandits and so reduced their opportunity for making attacks, and put those attacks at a disadvantage, that they didn't score a single point of damage. That strikes me as 1000% more effective then 1d4+1 damage once.
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I think that wizards suck at low levels when being discussed online to show that they suck at low levels. If you are playing a wizard in a campaign, you probably already know the general focus of the campaign and the concept you are going for.
For example, if you are playing in a campaign that is going to be undead heavy, you are probably going to learn and prepare different spells than if you are playing in a campaign that has a lot of courtly intrigue.
I have never seen any wizard have "just the right spell" at any level of play. I have seen wizards have the right spell for the game they are in. A good player builds his wizard (or any character for that matter) to fit within the campaign. A good GM doesn't change campaigns just to screw with a character that is doing well (or poorly for that matter).
Low level wizards, just like high level wizards, need to pay attention to what is needed at any given moment. Wizards aren't just spell casters. They are highly intelligent spell casters. If they don't need to cast a spell in round X, then they shouldn't. They should know when to boost party members, when to be aggressive, when to be defensive, and when to be utilitarian. They can't do everything, but they can do things right.
Don't forget a wizard doesn't need to memorize his full load at once. I usually run around with 3/4 slots memorized at first saving the last for "what ever I need" should the situation arise. Wizards have the versatility to know nearly any spell, and should take advantage of that.
I wish people would READ before they assert. C'mon. You don't have to read or use the guides, but if you don't, then don't assert what is said in them.
I wasn't name dropping you or your guide in this case or making an assertion about it. (If I was, I would have double-checked to see what you had to say.)
Edited to add: I think it's an excellently written guide for its stated purpose, which basically is: "I don't understand how to play a wizard to its potential, what do I need to know to get going down that path?" But, to me, it doesn't represent the "bleeding edge" of optimization taken to its crazy extreme, and I didn't get the feeling, reading it, that you meant it to.