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At the beginning levels don't discount the cantrips. Things like Daze, and Ray of Frost, can be very helpful at low levels, and you don't run out of them.If you have a 20 Int and a bonded item you have 4 1st level spells. Go with a familiar and you have 3. Go with an 18 and a familiar you have 2.
I'm not saying they are underpowered. Pathfinder gave them an appropriate bump so they are now fine at low levels.
They are neither underpowered nor overpowered. They are Goldilocks approved.
The response was to the post which said the argument that they could run out of spells was "ridiculous".
They can run out of spells in a 4 encounter day, and therefore will likely be rationing. Which is exactly the right balance.
Don't forget that every wizard except Abjuration and Divination specialists (but including universalist) get some sort of touch or ranged touch attack which is "better" then a cantrip, and can be used 3+ Int times per day. Easily extending their combat effectiveness.
Easy question to answer. Rays were nerfed for starters. Rays being nerfed = less reason to use rays = less reason to care about the ray stat....
Pathfinder made Dex LESS appealing?
Ohh...tell me why!
....
Impeccable logic so far.
Second, MAD and items. Ordinarily, for a Wizard this is not a problem. You get your Int item, and your Con item, and neatly dodge the martial nerf that is cost markups on stats that boost more than one physical stat.
Can you translate the italicized portion into English for the common man please? Your shorthand is too difficult to understand.
Also please understand most people want to optimize a character, not a coatrack on which to hang prerequisite magic items.
But you get Dex and either you lose Con and therefore die all the time, or get martial nerfs all over your caster. Neither are acceptable. And since you're not going to have a good Dex without items, you might as well just leave it at 10. That's the biggest reasons.
Are you saying that if you choose a higher Dex than Con score you will die all the time? Can one or two hitpoints per level mean so much.
Why couldn't you just as reasonably argue that you can't have a good Con score without items?
There's also such things as "Dex is STILL not the primary source of Initiative, which is the only useful thing it actually does." and ....
One could argue that reflex saves are useful, therefore "only" is a trifle strong. Using hyperbole so freely only makes it easier to dismiss your arguments.
You often assert that "Dex is STILL not the primary source of Initiative". What is the primary source then? While Dex is not the "primary source ", it still contributes to initiative. Isn't going first 5 or 10 % more often valuable over the long run?
..."Con is still better than Dex for laughing off Fireballs if you care, which you do not because Fireballs were heavily nerfed indirectly by virtue of your substantially higher HP and were never any good in 3.x to begin with."
I do agree fireballs are far less threatening to wizards in PF.
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CoDzilla, I can't help but feel that we would all benefit more from your wisdom (a dump stat ;-) ), if you were to set up a wizard's guide similar to Treantmonk's. And imagine the time you would save because you wouldn't have to seek out all these other threads to spread your wisdom around. The arguments would come to you.
You're really wasting yourself with this scattergun approach. Build yourself a rifle.
I'm not CoD, but I agree with him on many subjects. Mind if I take a stab at answering some of these.
In past editions as a martial type if you needed to shore up physical statistics (and lets be honest, you did) you could get yourself belt of strength, an amulet of constitution, and a set of gloves of dexterity, all at different times and at varying degrees of power. You could choose how much of a boost into each that you wanted and fill those slots accordingly. With all physical statistics now set into belts, the additional cost of having multiple effects on one item is added to the price when you need to boost multiple statistics with a single belt. Since martial classes rely a solid amount on all three physical statistics in PF, fighters even more so than ever needing dexterity (with armor training to allow for more dexterity in heavier armor and save DC's getting a boost so he needs a stronger reflex save to avoid pit spells and the like), this added cost affects them much more strongly than casters, who can get their primary attribute on a headband, then, for a cheaper price than adding a second ability onto a headband, can get a belt that boosts their choice of dexterity or constitution, likely, but not always constitution; since while the lower versions of +1 to initiative and relex or +1 to fortitude saves and HP per level is debatable as to which is better, at higher levels an extra 2 or 3 HP per level will matter a whole lot more, IME, than 2 or 3 extra initiative, which can be easily outpaced by the improved initiative feat, a scorpion familiar, and/or a trait or two.
Gear is part of a character, a pretty big chunk of it in fact. Part of a character is your wealth, and the game assumes that you are using an average WBL to buy gear that raises your overall effectiveness, usually through combat abilitiy, since that is where most gear is aimed toward. Is you have less wealth and gear than the base rules assume challenges become far more difficult due to lower to hit, lower damage, lower HP, AC, and saves, lower prime requisites which affect most things you do by 5% per modifer, and so on. Gear can be flavorful, fun and exciting, but first, for standard campaigns that I've seen, you need to have some very basic gear that every character is assumed to have to succeed - statistic boosters, cloaks of resistance, rings of protection, ect. These items need to either be available through crafting or purchase, or the game needs to be altered for lack of them.
CoDzilla, I can't help but feel that we would all benefit more from your wisdom (a dump stat ;-) ), if you were to set up a wizard's guide similar to Treantmonk's. And imagine the time you would save because you wouldn't have to seek out all these other threads to spread your wisdom around. The arguments would come to you.
You're really wasting yourself with this scattergun approach. Build yourself a rifle.
I would love to see this. I have read through Treantmonk's guides and I am always up for seeing other guides as well.
I'm not CoD, but I agree with him on many subjects. Mind if I take a stab at answering some of these.
Thanks, Ringtail. I appreciate it.
Second, MAD and items. Ordinarily, for a Wizard this is not a problem. You get your Int item, and your Con item, and neatly dodge the martial nerf that is cost markups on stats that boost more than one physical stat.Can you translate the italicized portion into English for the common man please? Your shorthand is too difficult to understand.In past editions as a martial type if you needed to shore up physical statistics (and lets be honest, you did) you could get yourself belt of strength, an amulet of constitution, and a set of gloves of dexterity, all at different times and at varying degrees of power. ....
Thanks, well put. It's quite a mouthful to jam into the nebulous "martial nerf that is cost markups on stats that boost more than one physical stat". Clear as crystal now.
I see (although I ellipsed it out) that you also started to address my question on initiative.
Gear is part of a character, a pretty big chunk of it in fact. Part of a character is your wealth, and the game assumes that you are using an average...I guess I do know this. My statement was really more of an irrational reflex to the WBL guidelines then CoDzilla. WBL has always struck me as high. Back in the day my group would have considered WBL as indicative of a Monty Haul campaign. I do realize that the game is "balanced" for that amount of gear. It's a personal failing.
No problem. I tried to summarize it up the best I could in a few words, but I guess it can be rather lengthy to explain clearly. After going through it a few times it just sticks out as an idea in my head; even something as short the above connects the dots.
The amount of money one gets on the WBL chart does look high, but when you will it with level appropriate, standard gear it all goes quite quickly on realitively few items. I'm a fan of the fun, flavorful, more situational gear options that generally are avoided for overlaping in item slots with the prime gear pieces. That is why in my games I use a level based chart to grant enhancment bonuses to shields, armor and statistics as well as natural armor, deflection, and resistance bonus to lessen the reliance on such items. My players are quite happy with it, and crafting is no longer required when trips to the local mage mart can't be garuanteed.
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I would love to see this. I have read through Treantmonk's guides and I am always up for seeing other guides as well.CoDzilla, I can't help but feel that we would all benefit more from your wisdom (a dump stat ;-) ), if you were to set up a wizard's guide similar to Treantmonk's. And imagine the time you would save because you wouldn't have to seek out all these other threads to spread your wisdom around. The arguments would come to you.
You're really wasting yourself with this scattergun approach. Build yourself a rifle.
It will never happen. Treantmonk, much like Kirth and his group, are scholars of the game who actually learn the rules and are willing to have theories examined and tested.
CoD won't even post a build.
It's like comparing a scientist to a birther. One tries to test a hypothesis, one seeks to prove an assumption.
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I'm not CoD, but I agree with him on many subjects. Mind if I take a stab at answering some of these.
In past editions as a martial type if you needed to shore up physical statistics (and lets be honest, you did) you could get yourself belt of strength, an amulet of constitution, and a set of gloves of dexterity, all at different times and at varying degrees of power. You could choose how much of a boost into each that you wanted and fill those slots accordingly. With all physical statistics now set into belts, the additional cost of having multiple effects on one item is added to the price when you need to boost multiple statistics with a single belt. Since martial classes rely a solid amount on all three physical statistics in PF, fighters even more so than ever needing dexterity (with armor training to allow for more dexterity in heavier armor and save DC's getting a boost so he needs a stronger reflex save to avoid pit spells and the like), this added cost affects them much more strongly than casters, who can get their primary attribute on a headband, then, for a cheaper price than adding a second ability onto a headband, can get a belt that boosts their choice of dexterity or constitution, likely, but not always constitution; since while the lower versions of +1 to initiative and relex or +1 to fortitude saves and HP per level is debatable as to which is better, at higher levels an extra 2 or 3 HP per level will matter a whole lot more, IME, than 2 or 3 extra initiative, which can be easily outpaced by the improved initiative feat, a scorpion familiar, and/or a trait or two.
Interesting. I've looked at it differently, as I viewed having the different items in different slots as a negative, as they take up more slots which could be used on other items. This was a particular problem for Monks with the choice of Periapt of Wisdom buff or Amulet of Mighty Fists, unless you used the rule in the Magic Item Compendium.
I'll have to take a look at the math and other items in slots, but I haven't seen this be an issue in game yet. I would be in favor of a house rule to allow you to be able to put lower boosts to one stat or another on the belt or headband.
Good post.
I think primary stat for wizards and sorcerers is always worth maxing out because so much is based off of it.
From an optimization standpoint that is. I would rather play a well rounded character then some giant brain with no Str or Cha. I also can't help but remember AD&D, where you just never had over an 18, and even the most powerful gods topped out at 25. Having a 20 at level 1 just seems really contrived to me, especially when everyone just happens to have the same scores every time.
- Number of spells per day
- Save DC's
- Other spell effects (such as mage's sword, and others)
- Concentration (defensive casting) checks
- Beating Spell Resistance
- Not to mention all the other benefits of having a high Int or Cha.
As for the whole item thing, it is a difference of 1,000-2,000gp.
For example:
Belt O'Dex - 4000gp
Belt O'Con - 4000gp
Belt O'Dex & Con 10,000gp.
Considering this is for you second and third most important stats, you probably wouldn't even be worrying about this until 1-2K gp isn't a big deal. Also, having both items only take one slot is probably worth the GP anyway.
Sorry, but this is a total non-issue, not something that should control how you build a character.
@ Fergie: I think it is just a playstyle issue more than anything. I have no real issue with it all since I've scrapped the "necessary items" all together, but I see the problems behind it in theory. At low levels it is a few thousand, but can range up to a 32000 GP difference if you were interested in getting +6 to all physical statistics; for a martial character that amount of money can cover all sorts of goodies from a pretty nice looking +4 back-up weapon to a cloak of resistance +4 and a set of Winged Boots to go with it, or even an Amulet of Natural Armor +4 if you wanted to pool it all into a single non-weapon item. Having all physical statistic boosters in belts also doesn't free you up to allocate different a different bonus to different statistics, like if I wanted a +6 Str, a +4 Con, and a +2 Dex. Casters don't have to worry about the cost increase since they are dependent on a single mental statistic. While having a solid Wis and Cha is nice for a Wizard, he certainly doesn't have the call for them that a Fighter has for Str, Dex, AND Con.
But wasn't it gloves of dex, and gauntlets of Str (ogre power!)back in 3.5? Since you couldn't wear both, you had to choose or pay for an off-slot item anyway. I could be remembering wrong...
Also, +2 to any stat can be had in ioun stone form for 8K gp.
I'm not saying SAD, vs MAD isn't an issue, just that the items price differences (especially if you craft them yourself) is really just a small amount of gp by the time you get to be a high enough level to worry about it.
In my campaigns, it isn't much or an issue because everyone can afford what they need and a +2 to an ability score here or there isn't making or breaking anyone at those levels anyway. I also generally never give out tomes, so scores of more then about 26 are vary rare. I also usually don't play past about 15th level.
EDIT: At the risk of stepping into a pissing match...
CoD wrote:"You could argue that. Such an argument would be predicated upon 1: Houserules that greatly improve blasting, making Reflex saves useful. 2: A lot more spells existing that are save or lose, vs Reflex (and aren't shut down by a common spell, like flight or FoM), 3: Being wrong."
Considering that you houserule everyone's HP to max, I don't think you are in a position to determine the value of hp damage in a normal campaign.
But wasn't it gloves of dex, and gauntlets of Str (ogre power!)back in 3.5? Since you couldn't wear both, you had to choose or pay for an off-slot item anyway. I could be remembering wrong...
Also, +2 to any stat can be had in ioun stone form for 8K gp.
I'm not saying SAD, vs MAD isn't an issue, just that the items price differences (especially if you craft them yourself) is really just a small amount of gp by the time you get to be a high enough level to worry about it.
In my campaigns, it isn't much or an issue because everyone can afford what they need and a +2 to an ability score here or there isn't making or breaking anyone at those levels anyway. I also generally never give out tomes, so scores of more then about 26 are vary rare. I also usually don't play past about 15th level.
Good point about the item slot overlap for low levels, but I can still see the disparity in numbers at higher levels. Even crafting at half value it can create a significant gap.
After level 15 play gets silly anyways. Characters have so many powerful and versitle abilities fights devolve down into finding the most entertianing way to make the monster cry.
Actually, WBL is too low. Yes, really. Remember what I was saying about gear dependency, and on how it's really bad for non primary spellcasters, who are already weakest? Well, it's to the point where you flat out can't cover all your bases. It's not possible. Not without a substantial WBL buff at least. And that's just to cover basics. You can forget about any item that doesn't directly help you in combat.
I guess I do know this. My statement was really more of an irrational reflex to the WBL guidelines then CoDzilla. WBL has always struck me as high. Back in the day my group would have considered WBL as indicative of a Monty Haul campaign. I do realize that the game is "balanced" for that amount of gear. It's a personal failing.
I'm going to regret this...
Can you prove that? I have been able to cover my bases just fine with the appropriate WBL with only 15 point buy. I only use the Bestiary and premade NPCs for my opposition because that's what the game is assuming I have for opposition. So can you prove that WBL is not high enough? What is "high enough?" Is making at least 75% of your saves enough? Is dealing at least 75% of a creature's hit points in a single round enough? Is not being hit at least 75% of the time enough? What is "high enough?"
Just looked it up:
Ahhh, the good ole daze:
Headband of Int
Gloves of Dex
Cloak of Cha
Amulet of Con
Periapt (amulet)of Wis
Belt of Str
Hmmm, I really don't miss deciding on natural AC vs Con boost vs Wis boost!
Yeah things were sooo much better for martial characters back in the day [/sarcasm]
But wasn't it gloves of dex, and gauntlets of Str (ogre power!)back in 3.5? Since you couldn't wear both, you had to choose or pay for an off-slot item anyway. I could be remembering wrong...
Just looked it up:
Ahhh, the good ole daze:
Headband of Int
Gloves of Dex
Cloak of Cha
Amulet of Con
Periapt (amulet)of Wis
Belt of StrHmmm, I really don't miss deciding on natural AC vs Con boost vs Wis boost!
Yeah things were sooo much better for martial characters back in the day [/sarcasm]
Way back in AD&D it was gauntlets of ogre strength or power. Your memory is fine.
Way back in AD&D it was gauntlets of ogre strength or power. Your memory is fine.
Ha! My earliest memories of playing AD&D was DM'ing my brothers character. He bought gauntlets of ogre power, a girdle of storm giant strength, and a hammer of thunderbolts, then went out one-shotting giants. Figured out back then that not everything in the game is balanced, and that when you use the item list as a mail order catalog, power imbalance ensues.
CoD - All you need are gauntlets, a girdle, and a hammer. Then just fight giants. Problem solved!
Second, MAD and items. Ordinarily, for a Wizard this is not a problem. You get your Int item, and your Con item, and neatly dodge the martial nerf that is cost markups on stats that boost more than one physical stat.Can you translate the italicized portion into English for the common man please? Your shorthand is too difficult to understand.
MAD = Multiple Attribute Dependency. Normally, Wizards are Single Attribute Dependent, so they avoid all the problems that come with being MAD. However Dex means they don't anymore. Because getting an item that boosts 2 physical stats costs 2.5 times as much as one that boosts a single physical stat. And this was not true in 3.5, where boosting two stats only cost twice as much.
MAD wasn't italicized. Thanks for addressing the "martial nerf..." part.
Quote:
Are you saying that if you choose a higher Dex than Con score you will die all the time? Can one or two hitpoints per level mean so much.
Why couldn't you just as reasonably argue that you can't have a good Con score without items?
Fortitude saves matter a great deal. The HP are more for laughing at blasting, and being able to take full attacks if an enemy somehow ever gets one off.
And you can't have a good Con score without items. That's why you have items. Not sure what you're trying to say there.
You frequently mention that you must have items for a good dexterity. You frequently argue that you must select a high Con at character creation. Until this thread I have never heard you talk about the need to boost Con through items.
- It created an impression that you favored Dex boosting items over Con boosters.
- It also left open the question of why not select a high Dex score and supplement your Con through items. (Given the relative importance you place on Con v Dex, it's clear to me now that you're assuming boost items of equal value will be available for each score.)
- Now that you've established the need for wizards to boost Con and Dex, I have another question. Aren't they subject to the same 2.5 x cost penalty on dual stat boosting items as martial characters?
Actually, WBL is too low. Yes, really. Remember what I was saying about gear dependency, and on how it's really bad for non primary spellcasters, who are already weakest? Well, it's to the point where you flat out can't cover all your bases. It's not possible. Not without a substantial WBL buff at least. And that's just to cover basics. You can forget about any item that doesn't directly help you in combat.
I guess I do know this. My statement was really more of an irrational reflex to the WBL guidelines then CoDzilla. WBL has always struck me as high. Back in the day my group would have considered WBL as indicative of a Monty Haul campaign. I do realize that the game is "balanced" for that amount of gear. It's a personal failing.I'm going to regret this...
Can you prove that? I have been able to cover my bases just fine with the appropriate WBL with only 15 point buy. I only use the Bestiary and premade NPCs for my opposition because that's what the game is assuming I have for opposition. So can you prove that WBL is not high enough? What is "high enough?" Is making at least 75% of your saves enough? Is dealing at least 75% of a creature's hit points in a single round enough? Is not being hit at least 75% of the time enough? What is "high enough?"
Even on easymode, as you describe no.
Let's review.
Getting a weapon (singular) is 200k.
Armor? 100k.
Shield (let's pretend Animated still works here, as otherwise shields are unusable for martial characters)? 100k.
Natural armor and deflection? 100k.
Stat boosters? 36k per, minimum. Since we're talking an MAD character, that's 4, and the markup makes it 5. 180k.
Save booster? 25k.705,000 gold. You still have only basic number stuff, and not even all of it. You do not have any form of backup weapon, including a second weapon for a dual wielder. You do not have the ability to fly, to haste yourself, or to teleport. You do not have any other utility effects, that will let you actually do the many things required just to get in there and do your job.
And the total required to get all that stuff ends up greatly exceeding WBL.
Also worth mentioning even with that you still get hit all the time, and still don't have solid enough saves, but it's all you can do. Not to mention, it's worth mentioning we've already established your games massively stealth nerf the opposition.
While the numbers are nice, you haven't really explained them very well. What are the target numbers you are trying to reach?
What is the AC you are shooting for?
What are the attributes you are shooting for?
What are the saves you are shooting for?
What are the hit points you are shooting for (I assume you are wanting to boost Con for the hit points as well as the Fort saves)?
I would also like to point out that +5 armor is only 25,000 gold. +5 weapon is only 50,000 gold. So let's look at this with more reasonable numbers:
AC boosts:
+5 armor - 25,000
+5 shield - 25,000 (49,000 if we animate it)
+5 natural armor - 50,000
+5 deflection - 50,000
+1 Insight - 5,000
+3 enhancement - to be calculated under "attacks"
Total of +24 AC
Total: 155,000 (179,000 if animated shield)
Saving Throw Boosts:
+5 resistance - 25,000
Wisdom boost +6 - 36,000
+1 competence (Ioun Stone) - 30,000
Dex bonus +6 - to be calculated under "attacks"
Con bonus of +6 - to be calculated under "attacks"
Total of +9 to saves
Total: 91,000
Attack Bonus:
+5 weapon - 50,000
+1 competence - (already part of the Saving throws)
Belt of +6 - 144,000
Total +9 to attack (with plenty of other ways to improve this number)
Total: 194,000
Grand Total: 440,000 (464,000 if animated shield). That's about half the WBL for level 20.
You are adding in bells and whistles. While nice, they are not necessary. This gives the character plenty to play with so he can improve other areas. Maybe he wants a Manual or Tome to improve his stats. No problem. Maybe he wants a luckstone. No problem. Maybe he wants a back up weapon or two. No problem. Maybe he wants some nifty boots. No problem.
Of course, we looked at level 20. What about level 5, 10, or 15?
If you are going to break down gear for a level, I think 10 would be best. There is a wonderful "sweet spot" for gaming around 8 - 11, and 10 is nestled right in there. Also, at mid-levels you will be seeing a lot of play and have enough money to work with to make several purchases, so I think it would be a pretty solid gauge. I'm also interested in comparing the resulting gear with my chart that I'm always pimping and playtesting and tweaking.
One could argue that reflex saves are useful, therefore "only" is a trifle strong. Using hyperbole so freely only makes it easier to dismiss your arguments.You could argue that. Such an argument would be predicated upon 1: Houserules that greatly improve blasting, making Reflex saves useful. 2: A lot more spells existing that are save or lose, vs Reflex (and aren't shut down by a common spell, like flight or FoM), 3: Being wrong.
1)Agreed the usefulness of of reflex saves increases with improvements to blasting or other monster-generated reflex save threats like dragon's breath. But such an argument is really based on the supposition that taking damage is bad and therefore to be avoided. When you say ""Dex is STILL not the primary source of Initiative, which is the only useful thing it actually does." you imply that avoiding damage from reflex save threats is unimportant. To use hyperbole, would you be happy to have a character that failed every reflex save?
2) So there are not enough reflex based threats, specifically save or lose spells, to justify trying to increase one's reflex save? (More hyperbole)3)I could be, but you'll not convince me of it by saying so without stating the reasons behind your assertion.
Side issue: How does flight or Freedom of Movement shutdown spells with reflex saves?
You often assert that "Dex is STILL not the primary source of Initiative". What is the primary source then? While Dex is not the "primary source ", it still contributes to initiative. Isn't going first 5 or 10 % more often valuable over the long run?
First, Initiative is an opposed roll. That means it actually suffers from diminishing returns. Second, the primary source is things other than Dexterity. There's all manner of miscellaneous bonuses. Even if you only stick to PF material. In fact, PF core has substantially more methods of boosting Initiative than 3.5 core. Most of them, of course are caster only.
First, Why does initiative being an opposed roll make it suffer from diminishing returns? Given the importance some of the wizard optimizers place on going first (forgive me, I can't remember your position on that issue) in order to end encounters preemptively , isn't it worth any boost however marginal in order to go first?
Second, (please correct me if I misread your position) you're arguing that there is no primary source for initiative, merely many miscellaneous sources. I can accept that. Improved initiative, and the dexterity buffs come to mind. What do you feel is the best method of improving initiative, say at 1st, 5th, 10th and 20th level?
Aside, I appreciate you confining your arguments to core. Thanks.
CoDzilla, I can't help but feel that we would all benefit more from your wisdom (a dump stat ;-) ), if you were to set up a wizard's guide similar to Treantmonk's. And imagine the time you would save because you wouldn't have to seek out all these other threads to spread your wisdom around. The arguments would come to you.
You're really wasting yourself with this scattergun approach. Build yourself a rifle.
Your insults aside, that wouldn't help. Making a thread around here that people don't like results in thread derailment (as Ringtail can attest to) regardless of the merits of said thread.
Whoa, why so sensitive? My jest based on the low importance you place on Wisdom scores was delivered in a playful spirit. I apologize if it offended you.
Thread derailment is an inevitably given the myriad topics of discussion. People will become interested in branching subjects and stray from the root discussion. It takes a great subject and a great thread host, e.i. Treantmonk and his Guides, to keep a long thread on track.
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Don't feel bad about how CoD took your comments thom...he is the first to be rude and dismissive to others but when comments like those, yet jestful, are directed towards him he gets his panties tied in a knot.
I am only a recent regular visitor to these boards and I immediately saw how limited his viewpoint to the game is. AND also saw how black/white he saw his viewpoint (I am right and you are wrong if you are not like me.)
I personally do not think there is enough of a difference to claim either Dex or Con as the MUST HAVE secondary stat. All depending on how you are building and wishing to play your PC the importance of each stat varies.
Actually, wrong. Level 20 is the best level to look at. At 10, WBL seriously lags behind expected numbers. It starts catching up at 15, but only kind of does so at 20. (it's pointless to examine 5, as there's not enough magic items there to make a difference, and all the problems with WBL stem from magic items lagging behind).
If you are going to break down gear for a level, I think 10 would be best. There is a wonderful "sweet spot" for gaming around 8 - 11, and 10 is nestled right in there. Also, at mid-levels you will be seeing a lot of play and have enough money to work with to make several purchases, so I think it would be a pretty solid gauge. I'm also interested in comparing the resulting gear with my chart that I'm always pimping and playtesting and tweaking.The problems with 20, numerous that they are, essentially boil down to 1)Games rarely reach this level 2)the power discrepancy between melee and casters is most pronounced 3)capstone effect/9th level spells skew everything. 10 is right in the middle, about the balancing point where melee becomes obsolete whereas they had their uses beforehand, most builds reach critical mass around level 7-9. APs typically go from 1-15 so 10 is sort of beginning of the last leg of the AP. You'll find that on these boards 10 is the unofficial agreed upon comparison point for classes/builds/tactics/etc. Some problems are eliminated at that level, and some are exacerbated but there it is.
Actually, wrong. Level 20 is the best level to look at. At 10, WBL seriously lags behind expected numbers. It starts catching up at 15, but only kind of does so at 20. (it's pointless to examine 5, as there's not enough magic items there to make a difference, and all the problems with WBL stem from magic items lagging behind).
If you are going to break down gear for a level, I think 10 would be best. There is a wonderful "sweet spot" for gaming around 8 - 11, and 10 is nestled right in there. Also, at mid-levels you will be seeing a lot of play and have enough money to work with to make several purchases, so I think it would be a pretty solid gauge. I'm also interested in comparing the resulting gear with my chart that I'm always pimping and playtesting and tweaking.The problem is with using level 20 is that it is a poor gauge of overall gameplay. It seems from conversations on these boards as well as elsewhere that level 20 play is rare and short lived. Outside of a 1-shot game building, a level 20 character with WBL for comparison is flawed, as one would be looking at the end result and not the road getting there*; much like the problem with character optimization boards. It is fairly pointless to examine level 5 with the general lack of important items and low amount of wealth. Perhaps 15 would be best then, as it is near the end of most PC's careers. But certainly both 10 and 15 would be better gauges than 20, since you will be actually playing through those levels more often than the high end of the spectrum.
EDIT: * = expanding upon this, perhaps the best solution should be a level by level breakdown comparison. This would be time consuming and difficult, and all would need to agree on the goal in mind as well as the best way to get there, but it would be the most accurate overall, I should think.
While the numbers are nice, you haven't really explained them very well. What are the target numbers you are trying to reach?
What is the AC you are shooting for?
What are the attributes you are shooting for?
What are the saves you are shooting for?
What are the hit points you are shooting for (I assume you are wanting to boost Con for the hit points as well as the Fort saves)?I would also like to point out that +5 armor is only 25,000 gold. +5 weapon is only 50,000 gold. So let's look at this with more reasonable numbers:
The target numbers are "as high as possible". Since you will not reach the actual target numbers, those being AC 75 (so AC actually protects you) and not AC 44 (auto hit range on everything, even mooks). Yet the maximum you can hit is a lot closer to 44 than 75, so you'll have to deal with it. And for saves, high enough to pass on a 2. And for Stats and HP, same deal. Can't get what you really need, so you'll have to settle for as high as possible.
Also, you are required by law to have Heavy Fortification, so my pricing was correct. Weapons wise, you are required by law to get a +1 (as many damage dealing, generally applicable properties as possible) weapon and throw a GMW spell on it or you cannot compete. Again, my pricing was correct.
If your target numbers as "as high as possible" then you have nothing to actually base anything on. Of course you want them as high as possible. That's a given. There is a point when you don't need them so high anymore. What is that point? Should your AC be 100 when you can get by with so much less? Should your attack bonus be +100 when you can get by with so much less? "As high as possible" is a worthless phrase especially when you are going to be discussing specifics.
As for "required by law to have Heavy Fortification" that's a thorough study in bovine scatology. Most creatures aren't going to have that high of a crit range so it's not a requirement to be able to defend against it all the time.
As for being "required by law to get a +1 (as many damage dealing, generally applicable properties as possible)" that is also majoring in bovine scatology. Since each of those extras would be circumstantial (some more than others), then they can't be required.
We've gone through this before. Your numbers are not indicative of the basis for the Pathfinder system. Your numbers are perfectly valid for your games, I will not argue that point. They are so far off from what the game assumes though. And your opinion of where the numbers should be is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is where those numbers are in the Pathfinder system as it is written for casual player.
So your numbers are wrong, unless we are using only your campaign. Since more than 99% of people who play Pathfinder are not in your campaign, you cannot reasonably use it as a measuring stick.
I'm also wondering why level 20 is the only reasonable measuring point. The games that most people play in stop as late as level 20. That means that there are many, many levels before then.
Right, well, just got back from the weekly PF mid-level session and my Dwarf Abj specialist Wizzie just bit the dust twice due to, of all things, Fireball.
Thankfully the Cleric was able to bring me back up from numbers around the -25 mark both times so he lives to fight another day at least. Sure, the main reason was because there were a lot of them (4 in a row first time, 5 the next), but the OTHER reason was because I failed my reflex saves, making my ring of evasion effectively useless.
So, back to the optimisation drawing board for that one, learnt my lesson well. Next downtime session I am doing some enchanting to add more DEX to my +4 Con belt...
(and a contingency Protection from Fire might just have to be thrown on as well...)
What, exactly, is the practical difference between optimizing a character and then having to use higher CR creatures to challenge him/her/it, and not optimizing a character and using standard CR creatures to challenge him/her/it?
I should just point out that there are only a few ways to raise initiative that are open to all.
-Improved Initiative feat +4
-Reactionary trait +2
These are open to everyone. For wizards, there is exactly 1 thing will raise your initiative.
If you choose diviner as your school, you also add +1 per 2 wiz levels.
There are a variety of boosts for other classes, but I could not find anything in the entire PRD open to wizards.
I should just point out that there are only a few ways to raise initiative that are open to all.
-Improved Initiative feat +4
-Reactionary trait +2These are open to everyone. For wizards, there is exactly 1 thing will raise your initiative.
If you choose diviner as your school, you also add +1 per 2 wiz levels.
There are a variety of boosts for other classes, but I could not find anything in the entire PRD open to wizards.
Wizard no
Would love elf druid tho
+8 ever round sounds cool.
Scorpion familiar also give initiative.
What, exactly, is the practical difference between optimizing a character and then having to use higher CR creatures to challenge him/her/it, and not optimizing a character and using standard CR creatures to challenge him/her/it?
I've asked this question before and it wasn't answered then either. Fundamentally, there is no difference. If everything is beefed up, then it's the same as nothing being beefed up (mechanically speaking anyway).
In 3.x you generally don't have the cash necessary to cover all the big six items until level 12+. If you have them prior to that point you generally have to sacrifice a + or two.
That being said the math in Trailblazer indicates that while the big six are the most efficient boosts to player power not all of them are technically required in order to maintain an acceptable success rate (70%+).
Given that you actually have better starting stats in PF in comparison to 3.x (+2 net), and you have a higher WBL (plus a ton of other boosts) everyone is actually better off, even the lowly meatshields.
The truth of the matter is that you can actually operate pretty well against most encounters without every big six item filled. It's only when you start dealing with extremely challenging encounters that not having all the base gear gets problematic.
The core issue is that some people are used to playing a game where they not only dictate the flow of the game but can routinely hit way way above their APL. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if the range of encounters that the PCs can beat is actually tightened from the 3.x norms.
I've asked this question before and it wasn't answered then either. Fundamentally, there is no difference. If everything is beefed up, then it's the same as nothing being beefed up (mechanically speaking anyway).What, exactly, is the practical difference between optimizing a character and then having to use higher CR creatures to challenge him/her/it, and not optimizing a character and using standard CR creatures to challenge him/her/it?
My character can beat up your character?
As a random interjection, I think the APG makes Reflex saves more important in the form of things like Dazing Spell -- if you expect to be fighting enemies with a good Fort and Will but bad Reflex save. A Fireball that keeps you from acting for 3 rounds if you blow the Reflex save might as well be a Save or Lose.
As a random interjection, I think the APG makes Reflex saves more important in the form of things like Dazing Spell -- if you expect to be fighting enemies with a good Fort and Will but bad Reflex save. A Fireball that keeps you from acting for 3 rounds if you blow the Reflex save might as well be a Save or Lose.
It's exactly that kind of thinking that makes you a great wizard player.