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Stunning Fist (Combat)
You know just where to strike to temporarily stun a foe.Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character can't take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Stunning fist feat does not say that it requires a standard action it only says that you must state that you use it before rolling for attack. That means it is part of any attack action.
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Stunning fist feat does not say that it requires a standard action it only says that you must state that you use it before rolling for attack. That means it is part of any attack action.
Stunning Fist (Combat)
You know just where to strike to temporarily stun a foe.Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character can't take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
+1. It's very clear IMHO.
I've got a little argument going on with my GM: I think you can use the stunning fist ability as part of a flurry of blow. He thinks the use of Stunning Fist takes a simple action (and as such can't be used in flurry)
The fact is, there's no indication about it in the manual...
Can someone help me on this one?
A stunning fist attack is just an attack roll, as an unarmed strike. As flurry of blows specifically says a monk can do any combination of unarmed strikes, attacks with a special monk weapon, or disarm, sunder, or trip combat maneuvers with the flurry, I see no reason why stunning fist should be excluded.
Hell, a normal attack is a standard action. The fact that it isn't specifically allowed doesn't mean it's specifically disallowed. As Pathfinder seems to be pretty good about noting exceptions, particularly in feats, and given that the monk can do combat maneuvers (which are also standard actions) I see no reason why your GM's argument holds water. (And I say that as a GM myself!)
Actually, he says it's too powerful to be used in a flurry: he considers it as a "Win the fight"...
Did he notice the save throw, limited use, the fact you have to hit or it's wasted and the number of creatures that are completely immune to stunning (and stunning fists other abilities)?
Honestly not nearly as powerful as he is suggesting -- even after you get the gorgon strike or whatever it is at 10th level.
They are only stunned for one round. That is not definitely not the entire fight.
Hello Shaar,
While Pathfinder's actual rules might state you are right, and your GM is wrong, I would like to remind you that your GM is perfectly allowed to modify the rules to suit his own idea of the game. If the GM feels your character is too powerful, and the lack of balance with the other characters is problematic, then damn the rules: just trust him. Your top priority should always be the well-being of the game, not the optimization of your character.
Which is completely not the point of the rules forum... we just clear up what the rules are -- not if they are going to have bearing on the game you play. :D
Hello Shaar,
While Pathfinder's actual rules might state you are right, and your GM is wrong, I would like to remind you that your GM is perfectly allowed to modify the rules to suit his own idea of the game. If the GM feels your character is too powerful, and the lack of balance with the other characters is problematic, then damn the rules: just trust him. Your top priority should always be the well-being of the game, not the optimization of your character.
Modifying a rule, and being wrong are two different things. I understand the DM is not hear to defend himself, but it seems like the DM just does not know what he is talking about.
There was also no mentioning of him being stronger than the other characters, and trust has to be earned. Assuming the OP only cares about optimizing his character is almost insulting. He just wants clarification on a rule. Sometimes damning the rules is damning the game.PS:This is the rules forum. The only purpose of it is to discuss what the rules are. Other gameplay issues are handled in other parts of the forum.
Your top priority should always be the well-being of the game, not the optimization of your character.
And this part is plain wrong -- the top priority is that everyone has fun if you aren't having fun because the GM gimps your character everyone at the table has failed in the top priority -- if the GM isn't having fun because your character is trashing everything too easily then either you have failed (since the GM isn't having fun -- and possibly the other players) or the GM did with poor planning. Which is the actual case will vary between situations and could be both.
our monk up to level 6 only ever got it to work once. the majority of the time anything worth stunning will ake it's save.
I think an important thing to keep in mind is that using stunning fist one time doesn't cover every attack in a flurry. If you want every attack in your flurry of blows to be stunning fist attacks then you need to use one of your uses per day to do it for each attack. As has been pasted in, you announce you're making a stunning fist attack before you make your attack roll, that means every time you make an attack roll not every round of combat.
1. English is not my first language and I find it a little difficult to express myself clearly;
Well I didn't realize this point -- you do very well with it (at least in the typed form) and now that you pointed out what you meant by well-being of the game I think we are closer aligned in point. So no worries!
I think an important thing to keep in mind is that using stunning fist one time doesn't cover every attack in a flurry. If you want every attack in your flurry of blows to be stunning fist attacks then you need to use one of your uses per day to do it for each attack. As has been pasted in, you announce you're making a stunning fist attack before you make your attack roll, that means every time you make an attack roll not every round of combat.
To expand on that, you can only use stunning fist once per round.
*looks out the window* Nope, neither flying pigs nor meteors coming down from above. So this isn't the rapture? Because I am pretty sure someone accusing the MONK of being overpowered is one of the 12 signs.
If your monk is overpowered, what is the fighter, cleric, wizard etc etc doing?
*looks out the window* Nope, neither flying pigs nor meteors coming down from above. So this isn't the rapture? Because I am pretty sure someone accusing the MONK of being overpowered is one of the 12 signs.
If your monk is overpowered, what is the fighter, cleric, wizard etc etc doing?
The monk is overpowered in this campaign. That's all that really matters for the discussion. Comments like this don't help the GM/player deal with the problem they are having.
The monk is overpowered in this campaign. That's all that really matters for the discussion. Comments like this don't help the GM/player deal with the problem they are having.*looks out the window* Nope, neither flying pigs nor meteors coming down from above. So this isn't the rapture? Because I am pretty sure someone accusing the MONK of being overpowered is one of the 12 signs.
If your monk is overpowered, what is the fighter, cleric, wizard etc etc doing?
No no, I am serious. I want to know about the rest of the party. The notion of a monk being over-powered in any context is baffling. Or is it the GM who thinks being able to disable someone is somehow wrong?
No no, I am serious. I want to know about the rest of the party. The notion of a monk being over-powered in any context is baffling. Or is it the GM who thinks being able to disable someone is somehow wrong?The monk is overpowered in this campaign. That's all that really matters for the discussion. Comments like this don't help the GM/player deal with the problem they are having.*looks out the window* Nope, neither flying pigs nor meteors coming down from above. So this isn't the rapture? Because I am pretty sure someone accusing the MONK of being overpowered is one of the 12 signs.
If your monk is overpowered, what is the fighter, cleric, wizard etc etc doing?
Knowing the rest of the party isn't going to give you near enough information to determine if the monk is overpowered. You need to know the players' level of experience, the GM's level of experience, the opposition they are up against, any house rules that are in place, what the adventure/campaign is like, etc. Instead of focusing on what the other characters are like, why not instead focus on the original problem? I'm not trying to be pedantic. I'm just trying to make sure this doesn't turn into a "monks suck" thread.
The original question is: can you use stunning fist during the flurry of blows? The answer is: yes you can but no more than once per round.
The monk is overpowered in this campaign. That's all that really matters for the discussion. Comments like this don't help the GM/player deal with the problem they are having.*looks out the window* Nope, neither flying pigs nor meteors coming down from above. So this isn't the rapture? Because I am pretty sure someone accusing the MONK of being overpowered is one of the 12 signs.
If your monk is overpowered, what is the fighter, cleric, wizard etc etc doing?
Nobody(not the OP) said the monk was overpowering. The OP said the DM thinks it wins the fight, which makes me think the DM is assuming stunning last for more than one round. I really doubt he thinks losing one round is overpowered.
Edit: Added spoilers as it's a side conversation.
It's actually *quite* easy for the Monk to be overpowered. Most cite them as being multiple-ability dependent, but truly they are multiple-ability beneficent.
All that is needed for a monk to be "too strong" is strong ability score rolls. AC can skyrocket, DCs of their special abilities go up (as well as how often they can use them). It adds up quickly. The Council of Thieves game I'm in has a "superhero" monk from some very solid rolls. She consistently out-damages my paladin and the ranger when smites and favored enemies aren't involved, and sometimes when they are. Plus she's definitely the tank, even with a base of 11 Constitution, sporting a 28 AC walking around most of the time (9th level).
Edit: Added spoilers as it's a side conversation.
** spoiler omitted **
If you roll well for stats, you can make anything powerful. I imagine we are talking 16+ in str, dex and wis, good magical backup or ahead-of-curve item selection?
Take those same parameters and stick them on a Two Weapon Fighting Sword & Shield fighter, and watch him break 100 damage per round before lv10 trivially, while walking around with even better AC.
@Bob: I know the answer is given. I'm just curious where this is coming from, is all. If we have better insight, we can provide better advice. Maybe steer OP towards archetypes, clear up HIS misunderstanding if he is reading the ability wrong, suggest tactics if the GM ends up nerfing it, so he doesn't lose much in terms of efficiency. Etc etc etc.
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Hi everyone!
I've got a little argument going on with my GM: I think you can use the stunning fist ability as part of a flurry of blow. He thinks the use of Stunning Fist takes a simple action (and as such can't be used in flurry)
The fact is, there's no indication about it in the manual...
Can someone help me on this one?
Thanks
For completeness I am including the full text from the Stunning Fist feat and the Medusa's Wrath feat:
Stunning Fist (Combat)
You know just where to strike to temporarily stun a foe.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character can't take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
Medusa's Wrath (Combat)
You can take advantage of your opponent's confusion, delivering multiple blows.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon's Fist, Scorpion Style, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Now, because the Medusa's Wrath can be learned by a monk as a bonus feat at 10th level and does not require the monk to meet all of the prereqs for the feat, Medusa's Wrath would be basically rendered unusable if Stunning Fist cant be used as part of Flurry of Blows.
Here is a scenario: The first round (aka flat-footed round) is over. The monk is adjacent to an enemy and wants to use Medusa's Wrath. Prior to the monk's attack the enemy is not effected by any of the necessary conditions (dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious) that are required to use Medusa's Wrath.
Medusa's Wrath can only be used during a full-attack, so the Stunning Fist would be used as the first attack in the Flurry of Blows. If the enemy does not make his save, he is stunned until just before the beginning of the monks next turn. Since the enemy now has one of the needed conditions, the monk can also add the Medusa's Wrath after the completion of the standard Flurry of Blows attack.
If instead Stunning Fist can only be used as a standard action, then unless the monk has taken Scorpion Style and Gorgon's Fist, or somehow the enemy has had one of the needed conditions applied by another character, Medusa's Wrath could never be used.
As a final consideration, in the text of the Stunning Fist feat it states that "You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round.", This implies that while multiple attacks per round are possible, only one of them can be declared as a Stunning Fist attempt.