There are dozens of specific magical armor and weapons in Pathfinder. I'm curious to know how many of you GMs would allow a player to augment such items.
For example, a player has a beaststrike club, but wants to have it further enchanted with a +5 enhancement bonus so that he will ignore every DR in the game short of DR/- and DR/epic.
What if they wanted a blade of binding that was a spiked chain rather than a greatsword, or +5 fullplate of luck rather than the more traditional banded mail of luck?
Would you allow such things? Why or why not?
If so, how would you go about handling things like cost/price?
This is less of a rules/RAW question and more of a consensus of opinion (that is, there is no wrong answer, so please be nice to others in this discussion).
EDIT: I'm also curious to know how the developers would deal with such a request in their home games (in an unofficial capacity).
I would allow reasonable requests. Adding features shouldn't be a problem at all, but changing the base item is a bigger deal.
With +enhancment, I would compare the price of the item to the enhancement table and the person has to pay the extra. (every property would be treated as a +X bonus this way)
For creating same bonuses on different item: for armor it's mainly a thing of min/maxing I think, and I wouldn't generally allow it.
Weapons, well if it fits more or less, I would roll with it, but I can't imagine a Life-Drinker bludgoining weapon a Scythe of Fish command.
Those things couldn't be found anywhere. (the letter could probably be crafted tough)
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I would definitely say yes, and I've never been troubled by simply assigning an appropriate enhancement equiv. bonus to the item, that gives you all you need for further pricing. I'd call Celestial Armor +4 equiv. for example.
I'd be tempted to call the Beaststrike Club +2 equiv. since its easily as good as many +1 abilities to my mind.
I've allowed it in the past. Pain in the ... to figure out some of the costs (the Celestial Armor itself was one of the things I was asked to augment) but we managed to do it. Unfortunately, I don't have the costs on me any more.
Without question, yes. A celestial armour, for example, is "merely" a +3 chainmail with some nice extras. If you want that +3 turned into +4 or +5, you can go right ahead and do it. You'll just need the right item creation feats and caster level, if if you have that, you can go nuts! +5 celestial armour? Sure. Add in wild, light fortification, glamered, improved shadow, greater energy resistance and undead controlling? If you have the means and time, nothing qill keep you from it.
Of course, finding such an armour in stores is a different matter entirely. Not only is it above the regular item limits for most cities, it's a custom item.
I have a more relaxed attitude toward the item limits in general - "standard stuff" like belt of strength +6, a cloak of resistance +5 or a +4 longsword are usually easy to get. This extends, to an extend, to specific armours, weapons and the like (though there it is easier to get best sellers, since people trying to earn a living with magic item creation and working in advance instead of bespoke item creation will focus on stuff they know will sell).
But more exotic stuff is not so easily available, and if you want a modified specific armour (like a celestial armour that is already +4, or, even more exotic, one that has etherealness already on it), you're at the mercy of the Lady (she who must not be named lest she leaves), since I tend to make a percentile roll for that stuff, and the more exotic, the higher the roll needs to be.
So you probably have to either make it yourself or pay someone to do it (and either way, you'll have to wait for it)
Pain in the ... to figure out some of the costs
Not really, at least not if you stick to standard stuff, like turning a celestial armour into one that is a +4 chainmail or adding standard armour special abilities off the menu. The standard celestial armour is +3 (which costs 9000 by itself), +4 would cost 16000, so you have to shell out an extra 5 grand.
Sure, if you want, say, a celestial armour that lets you use fly twice per day, at a higher caster level, you'll have to break out the more interesting parts of the magic item creation tables, figuring out cost of magic items that let you use spells, adding in an extra use per day and increasing the caster level, and then figuring into that the fact that it's an extra ability. But that is still doable without too much trouble.
Of course, if you want a celestial armour that has a max dex of +12 or something like that, you'll have your work cut out for you, since there are no nice and easy formulae for that kind of effect, and you'll have to play it by ear.
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I would definitely say yes, and I've never been troubled by simply assigning an appropriate enhancement equiv. bonus to the item, that gives you all you need for further pricing. I'd call Celestial Armor +4 equiv. for example.
I'd be tempted to call the Beaststrike Club +2 equiv. since its easily as good as many +1 abilities to my mind.
It is a yes for me here as well. I make the player create the item and include a small explanation with the math to support his changes. If I find he did a good job and the item was priced well, I would allow. Takes a little work off me and I can always make changes if he wasn't thorough. If a player is too lazy to research his own wants, I won't do it for them.
I wouldn't transform anything these special arms and armous do into an enhancement bonus equivalent. These abilities are basically a package with a fixed cost.
In the example of celestial armour, you have an armour that is +3 and costs 22400. +3 costs 9000, and the base armour (masterwork chainmail) costs 300, so the "celestial package" costs 13100. Maybe add a prerequisite that such an armour must be at least +3 to explain why the standard armour is +3 rather than +1, and you're done.
I'd still add a 50 percent increase in cost and a skill penalty because of the unusual nature. There has to be a reason that such armor is generally not found augmented.
The reason is simply that the core book only lists the standard version. No need to list more powerful versions, since the rules already cover this (+3 to +4 costs an extra 5000)
In fact I remember some developer saying that most specific armours and weapons tend to be on the low end of the enhancement scale (usually no more than +1 or +2) because you can easily apply the general rules and come up with more powerful versions. I guess the enhancement bonus they do have is some sort of a minimum at which you can get these (probably so you don't just get a basic +1 version and do the rest with greater magic weapon or magic vestment)
Though in fairness, I'm not sure whether they said it about PF or 3e. Still, the basic message seems clear: Basic gear into the books, you know the rest.
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The reason is simply that the core book only lists the standard version. No need to list more powerful versions, since the rules already cover this (+3 to +4 costs an extra 5000)
+3=9000 for armor, 18000 for weapon
+4=16000 for armor, 32000 for weaponUpgrade from +3 to +4 = +7000 for armor, +14000 for weapon
EDIT: If you are enhancing with a character using Craft Magic Arms and Armor, half those costs.
I made a recommendation for this before here.
I think it's quite reasonable, and will repost my recommended cost calculation:
To add a +1 equivalent bonus to a specific weapon or armor, calculate the entire base price of the weapon as an equivalent enhancement bonus, then add one to that bonus to determine the upgraded price. The Flame Tongue is a 3.2 equivalent weapon; adding another +1 will increase its price to 35,490 gp (price for a +4.2 longsword). The Sun Blade is a +5 equivalent weapon; adding another +1 will increase its price to 72,335 (price for a +6 bastard sword).
What KaeYoss is recommending is the "generous upgrade" option; by having such powerful abilities as those of specific weapons added as +gold, I feel you're going to end up with overpowered weapons pretty quickly. I prefer the "stingy upgrade".
Without question, yes. A celestial armour, for example, is "merely" a +3 chainmail with some nice extras.
Those extras are better than just "nice". They include roughly
1. Built in Fly for reaching those aerial foes.
2. Heavy Armor AC with the benefits of Endurance for sleeping in it, and Armor Training, which means Paladin and Ranger types can move at full land speed while wearing it.
3. Light enough in construction that it can be worn under normal outer clothing. In campaigns where this is a factor this ability is priceless.so a +4 valuation is justified.
As I said above: I wouldn't say that stuff counts as +1, or +100. It's more like glamered or energy resistance, with a fixed cost. After all, if it that stuff were just worth +1 (so the +3 celestial armour is +4), it would cost 16300, but it costs more.
As for the extras:
1. Built-in fly: that's a spell effect, usable 1/day. There are already rules for adding that sort of thing to any armour.
2+3: This is basically mithral on steroids, or rather elven chain on steroids (because elven chain already has the added effect of counting as light for all intents and purposes).
"Elven mithral" adds +5000 to the base price of chain mail(instead of the normal +4000) and in addition to making it count as light for everything, it adds +2 max dex, -3 armour penalty, and -10% spell failure.
"Celeastial mithral" adds +6 max dex, -3 armour penalty, and -15% spell failure (and counts as light).
These two abilities (fly 1/day and celestial mithral) cost +13100.
It doesn't really grant armour training any more than a simple elven chain does (which is not magical in any way), or grant "heavy armour AC", since the armour bonus comes solely from the armour and its enhancement bonus. It grants enchanted medium armour AC.
The reason is simply that the core book only lists the standard version. No need to list more powerful versions, since the rules already cover this (+3 to +4 costs an extra 5000)+3=9000 for armor, 18000 for weapon
+4=16000 for armor, 32000 for weaponUpgrade from +3 to +4 = +7000 for armor, +14000 for weapon
EDIT: If you are enhancing with a character using Craft Magic Arms and Armor, half those costs.
Alright, it's official: I failed basic math. Of course it's +7000.
Actually, I think I had the standard extra costs in my head, and going from +2 to +3 costs +5000 for armour. I guess it's stuck there since we had that one a lot in one of our campaigns lately, since there was downtime to improve stuff, there were some armours and cloaks of res that made that jump, and in addition to doing my own calculations, I helped a couple of people that don't have the standard pricing formulae in their heads.
I made a recommendation for this before here.
I think it's quite reasonable, and will repost my recommended cost calculation:
To add a +1 equivalent bonus to a specific weapon or armor, calculate the entire base price of the weapon as an equivalent enhancement bonus, then add one to that bonus to determine the upgraded price. The Flame Tongue is a 3.2 equivalent weapon; adding another +1 will increase its price to 35,490 gp (price for a +4.2 longsword). The Sun Blade is a +5 equivalent weapon; adding another +1 will increase its price to 72,335 (price for a +6 bastard sword).
What KaeYoss is recommending is the "generous upgrade" option; by having such powerful abilities as those of specific weapons added as +gold, I feel you're going to end up with overpowered weapons pretty quickly. I prefer the "stingy upgrade".
The powers that govern magic will not have abilities that are worth +1.2 or anything like that. Whole numbers, people!
Plus, as I said, there's precedent for my "generous" upgrade option: Mithral improves max dex, armour penalty and spell failure and has a fixed cost. Mithral chain is entirely nonmagical and also does the "counts as light for everything" thing. You can have +5 mithral chain (or a +5 elven chain), no problem.
And the fly bonus is just an added magical effect, and those are not figured into the effective enhancement bonus equations anywhere.
And this mithral stuff (and adamantine stuff) is hardly the only standard improvement the rules offer with a fixed price addition instead of an equivalent bonus. Look at armour enhancements, it's full of this stuff: glamered, slick, shadow, energy resistance, you name it.
And, I'm personally the generous type. That way, when I dismantle the party, they can't complain it's just because they were underfunded }>
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Celestial Armor breakdown
Celestial Chainmail Breakdown
Masterwork Chainmail = 300 = 150 (chainmail) + 150 (masterwork)
+3 Enhancement = 9000 [(3 * 3) * 1000]
Fly = 5400 = [3(spell level) * 5 (min caster level) * 1800 (command)] 5 (charges a day)
Total (so far) = 14700
So the +6 to max Dex, reducing the ACP by 3, and the 15% reduction in spell failure = 7700
Dex, ACP, and Spell Failure Pricing
Celestial Armor = Dex +8, ACP -2, 15% spell fail
Mithril Chainmail 4150 gp cost = Dex +4, ACP -2, 20% spell fail
MW Chainmail 300 gp cost = Dex +2, ACP -4, 30% spell fail
So if the celestial armor is made of mithril the extra cost to reduce the spell failure by 5% and add +4 to max Dex = 3700 (don't add MW to the chainmail math at top)
So to augment or change the celestial armor:
Change armor type = 22400 + (Cost of new type - 300)
Change the enhancement bonus = 22400 + (New bonus - 9000)
I also agree with KaeYoss, and I believe that's what we ended up doing - flat bonus to the extra abilities and just take the base cost of +3 and enhance that way.
The only thing i'd add to KaeYoss's breakdown is I would require someone who meets all the requirements to make the original in order to modify it.
I allow it in specific cases but not as an over all rule. I like my players building specific magical items though and tend to work them towards that if I can.
However to use an example from above: A blade of binding as a spiked chain instead of a greatsword? Yeah I'm good with this -- the weapon type you are changing to makes sense (a chain binds things? Who would have thunk it?), the weapon you are going to is actually harder to be proficient in (as an exotic weapon as opposed to the martial greatsword) and flavor-wise it feels good. Now if you wanted a blade of binding on say a gauntlet, or brass knuckles I probably wouldn't be so accepting.
I'm really iffy about adjusting the celestial armor or celestial full plate -- these are great armors already with the best AC potential in the game -- if my players really feel they must have +5 celestial armor in addition to the perks of the armor already I'm more inclined to ask them about this desire and what it says about me as a GM. Not that I'm doing something wrong or that they are -- but it's a good point to ask questions at. Now if they instead wanted to add on the perk stuff that has a straight GP cost instead of bonus price then I would be more willing to allow that.
There are dozens of specific magical armor and weapons in Pathfinder. I'm curious to know how many of you GMs would allow a player to augment such items.
For example, a player has a beaststrike club, but wants to have it further enchanted with a +5 enhancement bonus so that he will ignore every DR in the game short of DR/- and DR/epic.
What if they wanted a blade of binding that was a spiked chain rather than a greatsword, or +5 fullplate of luck rather than the more traditional banded mail of luck?
Would you allow such things? Why or why not?
If so, how would you go about handling things like cost/price?
This is less of a rules/RAW question and more of a consensus of opinion (that is, there is no wrong answer, so please be nice to others in this discussion).
EDIT: I'm also curious to know how the developers would deal with such a request in their home games (in an unofficial capacity).
Yes I would allow it. Just pay the cost. No reason for the magic to not work.
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What's that you say? Should I let melee characters spend gold to improve their items you ask? Since that's what they have to do with it, YES.
I actually had a player in my group charge 10% above cost to enchant items for the rest of the group and he had alot of income that way. Which he then took and made stuff for himself, he ended up having the best AC and survivability.
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I actually had a player in my group charge 10% above cost to enchant items for the rest of the group and he had alot of income that way. Which he then took and made stuff for himself, he ended up having the best AC and survivability.
Well, that is only good business. The Master Craftsman feat helps that a little bit.
Can I really not cast GMW on my +1 flaming frost shock vicious keen speed longsword in order to make it into a +5 flaming frost shock vicious keen speed longsword?
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Can I really not cast GMW on my +1 flaming frost shock vicious keen speed longsword in order to make it into a +5 flaming frost shock vicious keen speed longsword?
Unfortunately yes.
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
There are dozens of specific magical armor and weapons in Pathfinder. I'm curious to know how many of you GMs would allow a player to augment such items.
I actually worked out a system for this before.
It works like this: The non-bonus effects (everything not a +1 or so forth) on specifics you can get as minor items are equivalent to a +1 - mediums are +3, majors +5. Thus, a sleep arrow would have a +1 equivalent bonus. Ergo, up to +9 worth of additional bonuses could be added, provided the player has the money. Items that overlap rarity locations use the lower one, thus a flame tongue is a medium.
I hope that makes sense to other people.
I would definitely say yes, and I've never been troubled by simply assigning an appropriate enhancement equiv. bonus to the item, that gives you all you need for further pricing. I'd call Celestial Armor +4 equiv. for example.
I'd be tempted to call the Beaststrike Club +2 equiv. since its easily as good as many +1 abilities to my mind.
+1
The only thing i'd add to KaeYoss's breakdown is I would require someone who meets all the requirements to make the original in order to modify it.
I wouldn't require the crafter to meet all prerequisites, nor would I require research or anything like it:
No matter what else the thing is, you're improving a +3 armour to be a +4 armour, or something like that. Doesn't matter if the thing is made of really neat material and also lets you fly, does your taxes, and comes with a house on the beach. If you know how to create a +4 or +5 armour (or weapon), you can do it. If you want to add other abilities (fortification, slick, whatever), you just have to meet the prerequisites for them.
After all, the guy who fixes your car stereo doesn't have to know how to fix cars.
Would you allow such things? Why or why not?
If so, how would you go about handling things like cost/price?
Yes, I allow it, have allowed it in previous games, and will continue to do so. I price the items according to normal item pricing guidelines, which seem to apply well to most special weapons & armors.
Why? A number of reasons.
- It's more fun for the players.
- It doesn't make sense that one can create, for example, a +1 life-drinking greataxe, but not a +2 life drinking-greataxe, or a +1 life-drinking scimitar.
- Historically, the magic item section was created to support existing character types, and subsequent editions of the game have greatly increased the existing character types. Unfortunately, much of the magic item section has not kept pace.
- Historically, the magic item section has been bent around the tables for randomly generating magical treasure hoards. This doesn't recognize the improvements in magic item creation rules that allow for customized items.
From 3.0 on I've been disappointed with the "specific items" sections of weapons and armor. A combination of "+X equivilant" abilities and "+ gold cost" abilities would cover the items listed there more thoroughly and more simply. I'd rather see those abilities rewritten into the overarching price system, and replaced with a short list of example items.
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Well I allow it...but I follow the first rule of new item creation...that is what does this item do and what is that worth. So some item specials are a flat cost to me and some are + eqv when further enchanments are wanted. For example, celestial to me a + eqv bonus. You wanna to make it a +4 celestial armor, your paying to make it a +6 armor...or 36k gold - the cost of celstial armor. You want celestial on full plate or chain shirt? Yeah pay a +2 bonus eqv. The banded mail of luck? Well I would give that a flat price...so the re-roll once per week is a 9900 GP add on to any other armor.
For example, celestial to me a + eqv bonus. You wanna to make it a +4 celestial armor, your paying to make it a +6 armor...or 36k gold - the cost of celstial armor.
So celestial is a +2 bonus, but the +3 celestial armour (a +5 armour) only costs 22400 instead of 25300, i.e. 2900 less than it should? I'm going to create a +1 celestial armour that costs -1900 then. In fact, I'll mass-produce them! They're fast to create, too: Since it takes one day for each 1000gp or part thereof, they take -2 days to make. I start today and it's done the day before yesterday! Yay!
;-P
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For example, celestial to me a + eqv bonus. You wanna to make it a +4 celestial armor, your paying to make it a +6 armor...or 36k gold - the cost of celstial armor.So celestial is a +2 bonus, but the +3 celestial armour (a +5 armour) only costs 22400 instead of 25300, i.e. 2900 less than it should? I'm going to create a +1 celestial armour that costs -1900 then. In fact, I'll mass-produce them! They're fast to create, too: Since it takes one day for each 1000gp or part thereof, they take -2 days to make. I start today and it's done the day before yesterday! Yay!
;-P
kae, i like the way you think
So celestial is a +2 bonus, but the +3 celestial armour (a +5 armour) only costs 22400 instead of 25300, i.e. 2900 less than it should? I'm going to create a +1 celestial armour that costs -1900 then.
I think you did your math wrong. A +1 celestial armor would be a +3 armor. Even assuming the discount applies linearly, that'd still be 9,300 - 2,900 = 6,400 gp.
You just talked about the cost for creating -2 celestial armor under this formula.
a Life-Drinker bludgoining weapon
Its a mace in the shape of a skull with an open top. When it strikes the victim, the essence bubbles and froths in the top, enabling the wielder to drink from the skull as a free action.