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Why are they only getting one or two encounters a day? And why do the players know this?
I'm not saying spam encounters; I'm just saying that you should never ever give them a routine to follow.
They do not control the wilderness and have less control of potential encounters in the sticks then if they were to be hitting a standard type dungeon and leaving after a few fights. The further they go out the more dangerous it becomes. Safe rest becomes risky, and getting hit while healing up or at a moment or weakness is increased greatly.
More potential fights means tighter control (and care by the party) to control their resources (i.e. healing spells and potions for the barbarian). Once you establish that there is an open-ended potential for an encounter at any time - even one a few minutes after another (sound of battle attracting another creature/group) then you will see them not waste resource and blow through encounters as easily to self-restraint.
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Why are they only getting one or two encounters a day? And why do the players know this?
I'm not saying spam encounters; I'm just saying that you should never ever give them a routine to follow.
They do not control the wilderness and have less control of potential encounters in the sticks then if they were to be hitting a standard type dungeon and leaving after a few fights. The further they go out the more dangerous it becomes. Safe rest becomes risky, and getting hit while healing up or at a moment or weakness is increased greatly.More potential fights means tighter control (and care by the party) to control their resources (i.e. healing spells and potions for the barbarian). Once you establish that there is an open-ended potential for an encounter at any time - even one a few minutes after another (sound of battle attracting another creature/group) then you will see them not waste resource and blow through encounters as easily to self-restraint.
+1,
Even if its a small fight still wroth it.
You may feel it is a problem at this point, but there are an increasing number of places that are not 1-2 encounters a day as the AP goes along.
Unless the player group itself is very unhappy with things themselves, i would suggest that you simply let it flow for now, knowing the dynamic does change later.
If it's a matter of toughening up your bad guys, i suggest liberal use of the elite array, increasing the 'average hp' by 1 or 2 per hit die, and/or the application of the simple augmented template.
many bandits.
He'll survive alright -- but taking a lot of sneak attack from several sources at once spooks players.
I would recommend a night battle with several dark creepers and a few dark stalkers. About 7 creepers and 3 stalkers... perferably with the outflank feat and precise strike feat... maybe even gang up.
I also like a theme set of encounters -- say three trolls. Then three fast troll zombies -- followed by three bloody troll skeletons then one giant advanced bloody troll skeleton champion.
Ghosts would also be good -- maybe some ghost witches specifically.
It doesn't sound like you need to slam the barbarian (who is, after all, doing his job), but your group needs a few curve balls thrown their way. Right now, they seem to think they've figured out what to expect from the adventures. Shake that confidence and they'll be forced to fight more conservatively.
As other power groups in their "neck of the woods" come to understand the party's abilities, enemy tactics will become more cunning. As the group's most fearsome member, the barbarian's reputation will spread: Enemies will seek ways to avoid his wrath, employing missile weapons or exhausting him by sending expendable "cannon fodder" before their real attack.
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We don't know where you are in the 2nd chapter of Kingmaker. Give us some more "spoilered" details of how far along your group is and we should be able to do a better job of making suggestions that apply specifically to situations that will arise soon in your game.
As an example . . . .
Are these the kind of ideas you are looking for?
No matter what, even after upping the CR to challenge the group and specifically the barbarian, I would still award XP based on the original encounter. If you up the XP as well you will just be helping your PCs get ahead of the APs experience pace and exacerbating your problems.
That, and since you are not actively trying to kill their characters (at least I assume you are not), you might warn your players before the session starts that things can, and will, get deadly. Running is always an option.
Tam
Ray of Exhaustion (wiz3) is a barbarians bane. Touch attack, save or be exhausted, be fatigued on a successful save. End of rage for the encounter.
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As other power groups in their "neck of the woods" come to understand the party's abilities, enemy tactics will become more cunning. As the group's most fearsome member, the barbarian's reputation will spread: Enemies will seek ways to avoid his wrath, employing missile weapons or exhausting him by sending expendable "cannon fodder" before their real attack.
I like this a lot.
If there is a fight between drunken trappers at Oleg's they might calm down at the mere sight of this barbarian. The player will enjoy his character receiving this level of respect.
On the other hand, any group of intelligent opponents might just yell, "It's -enter barbarian name here-, kill him first." There are all kinds of things they might do to even the odds, from traps to eight archers and a fireballing wizard all targeting him.
Tam
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If my players don't worry occasionally about character death they get bored. I oblige them by make sure they are challenged whatever that takes. You don't want to kill players but I suggest you shake their tree at least a few times.
Start adding encounters to the day, even if they are simple and short. Keep them guessing whether the current encounter is 'the big' encounter of the day or if they are going to get hit by something later on. Just enough to remove the predictability.
Don't be afraid to alter the adventure. Published scenarios are by definition generic, add some opponents if you need to.
Also, as several people have said, you don't need to punish success.
Throw the party up against something weaker. That's right, really weak. If you mob the party with low level kobold rogues, drow fighter/wizards, and clerics, giant rat riding mite archers, etc. Just deadly enough that they are a menace, mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage. Almost everyone should be able to take them out with a single good shot, so his 30 damage will be fifteen more then necessary, while his lack of movement and ranged attacks will allow others a chance to shine.
Also, in general avoid single encounters and single monster encounters. Always leave the players thinking there could be more encounters. Avoid things with DR. His damage will make DR 5 a speedbump, but the other characters will be seriously hampered.
In time, things will settle down and his shtick won't be as powerful in relation to the other players. It might take several levels however...
I haven't played/GM'd kingmaker, so I can't really give any campaign specific advice. Check out the kingmaker area of the forums for great info and ideas!
Another option is to throw something at him that is hard to hit, but doesn't do a ton of damage per turn, but does do steady damage per turn.
Alchemist with high AC tossing bombs. Give him a high acrobatics skill, have him move around the battlefield tossing bombs and getting out of the way. The Alchemist isn't going to be doing tons of damage, but he'll hit almost every time, and do splash damage as well.
Along the same vein, a ranger with boots of striding and a favored enemy of dwarf is a pain for the barbarian, he's faster than the barbarian, and can move/attack every round beyond the barbarian's range of movement. Again, not tons of damage, and no more dangerous to the rest of the party (non dwarf members that is), but dangerous to the dwarf.
If you really want to mess with the dwarf, put a nicely optimized monk out there and go to town on him. Flurry, high movement, high AC. But again, the monk is no more deadly to the other members than the dwarf.
As stated above, a few dozen rogue types works VERY well. Heck, send in 15 goblins, all Rogue 2, and have half of them surround the dwarf (he's the obvious threat from your description) and a couple of rounds of multiple 2d6 sneak attacks will have that 70hp wittled down nicely. Sure, he can squish one each round, but he's still in a world of hurt.
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People always want to mess with a martial class doing his job well :(
This character is so tough and puts out so much damage that it’s difficult to stage meaningful combat encounters.
No one is punishing the player, if anything the DM wants to setup more challenging fights that are meaningful to one PC while they don't steamroll and kill everyone else in the party.
Legit concern
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As stated above, a few dozen rogue types works VERY well. Heck, send in 15 goblins, all Rogue 2, and have half of them surround the dwarf (he's the obvious threat from your description) and a couple of rounds of multiple 2d6 sneak attacks will have that 70hp wittled down nicely. Sure, he can squish one each round, but he's still in a world of hurt.
Especially if they attack at night. Don't forget that any character that doesn't want to be automatically fatigued the next day will not be sleeping in their medium or heavy armor.
Tam
People always want to mess with a martial class doing his job well :(
I would point out that at lower levels, the melee classes are quite capable of being VERY effective. It seems that this character is right in his element, and at this point, in this campaign is more of a presence then the other characters.
Anyway, lets not read into this situation more then we should, and lets REALLY NOT start that debate here.
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As other power groups in their "neck of the woods" come to understand the party's abilities, enemy tactics will become more cunning. As the group's most fearsome member, the barbarian's reputation will spread: Enemies will seek ways to avoid his wrath, employing missile weapons or exhausting him by sending expendable "cannon fodder" before their real attack.I like this a lot.
If there is a fight between drunken trappers at Oleg's they might calm down at the mere sight of this barbarian. The player will enjoy his character receiving this level of respect.
On the other hand, any group of intelligent opponents might just yell, "It's -enter barbarian name here-, kill him first." There are all kinds of things they might do to even the odds, from traps to eight archers and a fireballing wizard all targeting him.
Tam
+1
Yea, give him fame, but then turn the fame agaisnt him.Make it like 30-50% positive, 50-70% negitive,
Just enouth positive that he realizes its a bone.
When he goes to town, have people be like worshiping him, asking for autographs, exc, (auto + two lvl or -2 lvl depnding on how they view the dwarf, and +1, -1 lvl for the party.)
If you want a challenging melee encounter, make something that goes around the brick wall, not through it. Reach weapons and mobility. Debuffs. Archers. Traps. All of these are good openers.
A equivalent level melee guy of your own (5th or 6th level bandit leader) with a half-dozen or so mooks is great for this.
Something I thought of, but didn't actually do to my players (I was being nice) was when the APG came out.
For these purposes, a 5th level cleric to go toe to toe with the barbarian (medium armor, polearm, short haft feat). Give him 6 3rd level alchemists with high dexes and initiative feats to boost how fast they go.
If the cleric is 10 feet from barb, all the alchemists throw bombs at the barb. If he closes with the cleric (taking the AoO), cleric short-hafts, attacks, and five foot adjusts back. Alchemists declare held actions for boss to step back, then hit barb. Lather, rinse, repeat. This works especially well if you have a corridor the players must get through, and the cleric/alchemists are the guards. A 15 ft wide corridor say. And, the cleric can channel after an adjust if he needs to to heal his compatriots.
EDIT: You can also mix and match alchemists and sorcerers, to allow some flexability, or an archer or two in the background. The big idea is, you want most of the mooks using RTAs.
Why are they only getting one or two encounters a day? And why do the players know this?The nature of the Kingmaker is campaign is exploring wilderness areas and forging a new kingdom. It takes weeks and months to explore. Sometimes the party will not encounter anything for a few days. I have used staged multiple encounters one after another but you just can't do this often as it looses credibility.
I agree with the credibility issue. I just let my players have fun until they got to certain areas in the game. If it really bothers you though change monsters out, or instead of using one monster use several monsters. That will give the rest of the party something to do.
PS:
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Once upon a time I played a dwarven two-handed fighter who wiped the floor with most monsters. My group consisted of a wizard, a cleric, and a (cowardly) rogue. The wizard assisted with spells, the cleric with healing, and the rogue mostly hid/ran. It was great.
Unlike my situation, if your players are chaffing under the invulnerability of the barb, then you have a problem. May I suggest flying ranged creatures? How about rogues, whose sneak attack bypass DR? Maybe the enemies can have DR of their own, thus reducing the barb's effectiveness? Last but not least, don't be afraid to kill him. It'll teach him that he's tough, but he's not invulnerable.
In terms of dmg/toughness, no other party member in your group will trump the barb. So perhaps you can design encounters the results of which does not depend upon killing. How about trying to catch someone who runs very fast? Or puzzles? I never played Kingmaker but heard it's sandboxy, make up your own unique challenges that allows teamwork!
Once upon a time I played a dwarven two-handed fighter who wiped the floor with most monsters. My group consisted of a wizard, a cleric, and a (cowardly) rogue. The wizard assisted with spells, the cleric with healing, and the rogue mostly hid/ran. It was great.
Unlike my situation, if your players are chaffing under the invulnerability of the barb, then you have a problem. May I suggest flying ranged creatures? How about rogues, whose sneak attack bypass DR? Maybe the enemies can have DR of their own, thus reducing the barb's effectiveness? Last but not least, don't be afraid to kill him. It'll teach him that he's tough, but he's not invulnerable.
In terms of dmg/toughness, no other party member in your group will trump the barb. So perhaps you can design encounters the results of which does not depend upon killing. How about trying to catch someone who runs very fast? Or puzzles? I never played Kingmaker but heard it's sandboxy, make up your own unique challenges that allows teamwork!
Sneak attack oesn't bypass DR: it increases damage so you can help bypass DR.
1d6 swordsword + 1d6 sneak + Str = average 7 +Str damage. So on average it does help.|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Ray of Exhaustion (wiz3) is a barbarians bane. Touch attack, save or be exhausted, be fatigued on a successful save. End of rage for the encounter.
You can't START raging while you're fatigued.
Becoming fatigued WHILE you're raging doesn't cancel your rage.
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You can't START raging while you're fatigued.Becoming fatigued WHILE you're raging doesn't cancel your rage.
This is fact. Getting Exhausted still sucks real bad. Send in a Ray of Enfeeblement after that and he'll be nearly neutralized.
Trouble is going to be getting either of those spells past a Barbarian's formidable Fort save.
My DM has nailed my Dwarven Paladin 6/Fighter 2 twice with 'Bestow Curse'for -6 STR... usually the BBEG, who has buffed AC! I'm still a big bag of AC and HPs, but at that point you can forget hitting anything with less than a roll of 15+ and my dice aren't usually on the lucky side of the fence... hence failed magic saves on a dwarven paladin! After the 2nd time, I convinced the party we should have a Wand of 'Remove Curse' on hand, lol.
If you want to be REALLY mean use 'Blindness', but I don't recommend doing that frequently, else the party will see it for what it is and you may lose a player.
EDIT: I'm not entirely sure about the Troll either, giants tend to have a real hard time hitting me. (mobility + dwarven: defensive training) I also have the Endurance/Diehard feat tree, Lay on hands in the negatives! The only scary part about the build (and I'm sure your player has a similar fear) is that when he does get hit, it's typically a CRIT... he may not SEE negative HPs to use LoH. Being a good tank is all fun and awesome until your DEAD DEAD DEAD, LOL!
Here comes CourtFool with his usual blathering. Get ready. Are you ready? Here it is.
Talk to your player
Yeah I know. Crazy, huh? Now I know a lot of people here have given you excellent advice so why do you need to go and mess all that up by involving the players. Well, here's the thing. If you talk to the player, he gets an understanding of where you are coming from. He is far less likely to think you are just suddenly, without reason, screwing him over when you start targeting his weaknesses. Added bonus is that he may offer some of his own. He is likely keenly aware of what would really ruin his PC's day and…if you are lucky…he may even share it with you.
Also, when all of that excellent advice you have been given starts to fail, and it will, not because it is bad advice, just that the player will take measures to prevent its repeated use…you will have opened a dialogue with your player. Or better yet, he will be less likely to take all those steps to counter the wonderful advice given here because he does not want to escalate the arms race. He will understand it is your responsibility to provide a challenge and if he works with you instead of against you, everyone can have fun.
you can mix up weaker guys with something hard for him to damage. the smaller guys let him do his thing and have fun. the harder guy has. dr and makes him work with others or let's say the wizard shine with force damage.
in our level 8 game we taught a bunch of orca controlled by avshadow demon. my barbarian got to hit things for 25-30 damage on the orca but couldn't scratch the shDow demon due to dr an insubstantial.
fights like this shouldn't be the norm but moves the party focus around.
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I play a somewhat similar build (Human Barb (Inv Rager) 6/Rogue (Scout) 4/Chevalier PrC 3) and have found there is a lot of stuff that can ruin my day pretty quickly.
Monsters with grapple/engulf/swallow hole, as previously mentioned. Even with rage/strength bonuses to CMD some of the specialized grapple monsters can dwarf (no pun intended) anything other than the monk or a specialized fighter on grapple checks.
Dominate - sure he's got the Dwarven magic resistance, but unless he picked his feats and Rage Powers to compensate his Will save is still probably pretty low. Any wizard/sorc/vampire that sees him tear into a bunch of minions like a wood chipper first round is going to try to turn that rage against the party itself.
Will-based illusions or sensory deprivation or the like - anything that causes the barb to burn off his energies chasing shadows.
Spells such as Bestow Curse, Calm Emotions (no more rage), Command, Confusion, Demand/Suggestion, Heat Metal (on armor), any of the Pattern spells suck pretty bad for us too (Scintillating Pattern was the worst - no save. Actually that messed up the whole party but w/e). Don't be afraid to tweak NPC statblocks with Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus or other feats/traits to offset the dwarf's resistances.
Other higher level Inv Ragers (Diehard turned out to be suck in this instance as I was making Bluff checks to play dead so he wouldn't coup de grace me).
How many healers do you have in your party? One of the constant issues with this char is the fact that 'down by half' for me means ~100hp of healing needed, rather than 25-50 for everyone else. I can soak up hits til the day is done, but after 2 or 3 encounters the cleric's just absolutely tapped out for channels/cures.
If you want to be REALLY mean use 'Blindness', but I don't recommend doing that frequently, else the party will see it for what it is and you may lose a player.
Hah! Unintentional pun is funny.
Anyways, I have a Dwarven Invulnerable Rager in my party with HP through the roof. His AC is terrible, but he can soak up a LOT of hits before he goes down. They're all level 9 at the moment.
He's definitely a challenge, but hey, he does his job damn well. He hits things hard and takes hard hits like they're nothing. Best of all, he has a 6 Charisma and always says things at the worst times.
I, too, only do a few encounters each day, but I've been ramping them up recently. I'd do that first and foremost. Don't make all of them that difficult; as others mentioned, give them some easier encounters mostly just to drain resources and stuff (by the end of the day, that barbarian will be pinching his pennies in rage rounds).
And, as others have said, give the player some fame, wanted or otherwise. My players already have it, and it's proven to be a massive double-edged sword. A lot of enemies know who they are, and some of the time they're better prepared than the players. Not always, of course, but it's becoming more noticeable.
I would suggest those to start, and if for some reason he's still hampering the difficulty level, then try ramping up the encounter dangers. Throw some traps at them. Give them challenges that can't be solved by brute force or endurance alone. Always make sure to still consider the rest of the party, though. You don't want to end up throwing huge damage dealers against the barbarian that can one-shot the party wizard.
Melee character is being effective. I demand more suggestions to prevent him from having nice things.
Melee character is being effective. I demand more suggestions to prevent him from having nice things.
While I understand where some of your bitterness is coming from realize that most people here (if not all) are suggesting ways to help challenge the rest of the party and the barbarian together as a unit without overpowering the rest of the party. The ideas presented are much the same as would be suggested if it was a single wizard/cleric/whatever that was overshadowing the party.
Melee character is being effective. I demand more suggestions to prevent him from having nice things.
Batman makes a Kryptonite bullet in case Superman gets out of line somehow and needs to be ended.
How's that?
Melee character is being effective. I demand more suggestions to prevent him from having nice things.Batman makes a Kryptonite bullet in case Superman gets out of line somehow and needs to be ended.
How's that?
Good, except in your analogy "Batman" is the DM and "Superman" is the player having fun, which means "Batman" is a complete dick.
Good, except in your analogy "Batman" is the DM and "Superman" is the player having fun, which means "Batman" is a complete dick.Melee character is being effective. I demand more suggestions to prevent him from having nice things.Batman makes a Kryptonite bullet in case Superman gets out of line somehow and needs to be ended.
How's that?
You're right. Why? Because pogue assed old man Max Schmeling didn't study fight films until he found Joe Louis' weakness so he could knock him out.
Enemies don't study potential future opponents to figure out if there's any way to pwnz0rz them by guile and deceit. Because life is fair, and rpg's should be too. ;)
Good, except in your analogy "Batman" is the DM and "Superman" is the player having fun, which means "Batman" is a complete dick.Melee character is being effective. I demand more suggestions to prevent him from having nice things.Batman makes a Kryptonite bullet in case Superman gets out of line somehow and needs to be ended.
How's that?
You're right. Why? Because pogue assed old man Max Schmeling didn't study fight films until he found Joe Louis' weakness so he could knock him out.
Enemies don't study potential future opponents to figure out if there's any way to pwnz0rz them by guile and deceit. Because life is fair, and rpg's should be too. ;)
Your response is puzzling and an absolute non-sequitur. Assuming that your position is that "if a PC is doing good, the DM is doing something wrong" here is my response. If in fact your response is, as I suspect, a Victor Hugo novel translated and retranslated back and forth from Portugese to Mandarin via babelfish several dozen times, disregard the following:
This thread has nothing to do with plot NPCs trying to figure out the party's weakness, and everything to do with a DM who doesn't like that his player created an effective character. Why should a DM punish a player for succeeding?
This thread has nothing to do with plot NPCs trying to figure out the party's weakness, and everything to do with a DM who doesn't like that his player created an effective character. Why should a DM punish a player for succeeding?
What it has to do with is a dungeonmaster who wants to challenge an effective character.
My suggestion is to have the enemy study the character, find his weakness, and exploit it.
Furthermore,.....this thread is about challenging a character, and not whether or not the dungeonmaster is playing the game the same way you like to play it. So, in all actuality, my statement is more cogent.