This thread has nothing to do with plot NPCs trying to figure out the party's weakness, and everything to do with a DM who doesn't like that his player created an effective character. Why should a DM punish a player for succeeding?
Can we drop the melee can't have nice things crap? This is a perfectly reasonable thread about one character being out balance with the rest of the party for a variety of reasons. If you want to complain about fighters vs wizards, please go start a different thread. I'm sure it will change a lot of opinions and provide hours of enlightenment.
PS Spanky, please remove your second post. I'm not going to flag it, but I think it is out of bounds.
This thread is awful.
Here's what I see is happening:
The barbarian is dominating encounters, and the rest of the party isn't having fun because they don't feel involved.
This is a problem. It's not about making sure melee can't have nice things. The game should make sure everyone has nice things. It's about fun for all the players, not just one player.
This thread is awful.
Here's what I see is happening:
The barbarian is dominating encounters, and the rest of the party isn't having fun because they don't feel involved.
This is a problem. It's not about making sure melee can't have nice things. The game should make sure everyone has nice things. It's about fun for all the players, not just one player.
Basically there are two or three really contentious topics that keep going through the exact same cycle, and first they happened mainly in the rules section, then they spread to the general RPG section and now to advice.
If any part of any post has a handful of the keywords that the Prime Contentions contain, the thread slowly morphs into an avatar of one of the Prime Contentions.
Plus it seems like people just have gotten into a snarky rut across the boards and like to post elitist posts that only serve to make the thread they appear in into a morass of bile.
*ignores stupidity*
Shadows, or other incorporeal undead?
Incorporeals are nasty against unsuspecting melee, I wouldn't go that route unless they have a healer-type who can fix ability score damage.
rust monster.
Eep! Permanent equipment damage makes you lose friends!
Another spell I thought that annoys me as a melee character, especially before BaB +6... Mirror Image. It won't stop him, but it'll sure slow things down a few rounds. :)
Shadows, or other incorporeal undead?Incorporeals are nasty against unsuspecting melee, I wouldn't go that route unless they have a healer-type who can fix ability score damage.
rust monster.Eep! Permanent equipment damage makes you lose friends!
Another spell I thought that annoys me as a melee character, especially before BaB +6... Mirror Image. It won't stop him, but it'll sure slow things down a few rounds. :)
Don't forget that rust monsters aren't quite as bad as they were now. I like incorporeals for damage dealers in general since they are less affected by things (also true for most spells as well). Mirror Image is a great time buying spell though.
Mooks would be my biggest solutions to all this -- mooks with teamwork feats (again, outflank, gang up, and precise strike) and decent damage output -- the idea isn't to put the barbarian out of commission but to be able to spread the damage out (with a lot of mooks he can't be everyone at once -- the other characters will be involved and in direct danger with decent damage coming from each mook) -- it doesn't make the barbarian useless -- he'll probably drop one or two mooks each round, but it does spread the love out.
A few things to keep in mind:
1) DR is useless against energy attacks
2) DR is useless against grapples and other entanglements
3) DR is useless against ability drain and damage
You don't have to do a lot. You have to do just enough to scare him. If he's getting a reputation in the area for being nigh invulnerable, then it is reasonable that the enemy might have a few alchemist fires with them. Maybe they are willing to try poisons. Sure, he can handle a single dose but can he handle six doses at once? Even something as simple as black adder venom can get scary when the DC goes from 11 to 21 and the duration goes from 6 rounds to 30 rounds. Yeah, he'll make that save quickly but it will make him think twice about just wading into combat. Even an entangle or web spell can slow him down and make it easier for some archers to pepper him with poisoned arrows.
Is there something in Kingmaker that tells you to run sub-standard numbers of encounters per day?
Exploring the wilderness establishing a Kingdom doesn´t sound like a prescription for that, if anything the whole premise of the AP is that the wilderness is full of unknown dangers and other power groups hostile to the PCs. With a 5 person party, I think 5 encounters per day should definitely be your standard, and going to 6 occasionally (to balance out some days with 4) is more than reasonable. Having to balance their resources better means party casters might not just throw buffs at the barbarian willy-nilly.
Besides continuing what you are doing (which isn´t some unreasonable trick agaisnt the player, ranged combatants are VERY effective, so why wouldn´t they be used in the game world?), and some of the other advice - many weak enemies, possibly with Sneak Attack (preferably invisible or stealthed) and/or Teamwork Feats...
I would say think about giving BBEG´s some Fortification Armor/Bracers, which helps vs. the Barb´s peak output... and make sure they have Toughness, Favored Class: HPs in any class levels, and a CON bonus item doesn´t hurt to keep them in the fight. I think that giving MOST enemies Elite Array adjustment is pretty reasonable as well, it isn´t really to big of a buff in reality, but let´s a FEW enemies last 1 more round or so.
It's a low level thing; the static strength bonus makes barbarians the unsung heroes at low levels. Later (about 10ish) they start having issue feeling significant... their damage just doesn't scale up AT ALL. So let him have his moment of glory; high strength with rage IS king of low levels.
He can scale it up some with rage powers like witch hunter and reckless. Witch hunter will work on just about anything past level 10 (what doesn't have supernatural or spell like powers past that level?) and reckless is basically a more balance version of the old combat brute feat.
Come and Get Me. Ouch.
Come and Get Me. Ouch.
Yeah, the more I look at the teamwork feats the more I realize that they are good for a group of players -- but are absolutely awesome for monsters.
But now in order to stop him I have to kill him.
If he gets in over his head, and you keep saving him by not killing him (fudging rolls, DM fiat, whatever), then I'd suggest the "problem" you're perceiving is self-created. Let the dice fall where they fall. If he dies when things get too hairy, he'll be more cautious with his next character.
It's a low level thing; the static strength bonus makes barbarians the unsung heroes at low levels. Later (about 10ish) they start having issue feeling significant... their damage just doesn't scale up AT ALL. So let him have his moment of glory; high strength with rage IS king of low levels.
Rage scales in Pathfinder. It goes from Rage to Greater Rage to Mighty Rage. Plus you get some nifty rage powers as well. There is even one that increases your Constitution bonus while raged. Combine those with the expected growth of the character and he should be remaining significant especially in an Adventure Path.
If he gets in over his head, and you keep saving him by not killing him (fudging rolls, DM fiat, whatever), then I'd suggest the "problem" you're perceiving is self-created. Let the dice fall where they fall. If he dies when things get too hairy, he'll be more cautious with his next character.But now in order to stop him I have to kill him.
At least 1 too many people suffer from the delusion that the DM's job is to kill PCs.
If such is the case, then the obvious answer would be forgotten traps, non-combat encounters, mazes and puzzles, etcMelee character is being effective. I demand more suggestions to prevent him from having nice things.While I understand where some of your bitterness is coming from realize that most people here (if not all) are suggesting ways to help challenge the rest of the party and the barbarian together as a unit without overpowering the rest of the party. The ideas presented are much the same as would be suggested if it was a single wizard/cleric/whatever that was overshadowing the party.
Oh of course, because having fights that you know have intelligent foes, acting intelligently and are not just speedbumps for the big guy with a sharp stick is "gimping him"...
or the GM can play smart and the players can play smart and sometimes the meat shield won't be the only factor in a combat.
The guy is good at one thing -- if he didn't prepare for other things that's his stupid.
I am GMing kingmaker.
What you can do is set up the encounters to the little psycho can't get to everything easily. Have enemies come in from different sides, use cover and terrain to impede, etc.
It has already been pointed out that the heavy hitting front-line guys have their time in the sun while the casters hide in the background, growing strong by watching their friends kill stuff, getting some help with healing and buffs until mid level, when the balance of contribution equals out, and the fights start to take on a different guise, and the impact of the combatants start to fizzle out, as the rogue leans over and goes "Now you know how I have felt since level 5".
My advice for now:
- Tweak HP by +20% to make up for the fifth player. +50% if you use 20 point buy. +50% and additional creature that doesn't increase CR by more than 1 if using 25 point buy.
- Fudge encounter rolls to favor some that the barbarian can't cut down in a single swipe, or make the others feel more useful. Fliers, illusion-users, ranged attackers.
- Are they optimized? Optimize the resistance. You gotta put hard against hard.
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Really, I feel you pain OP. This is just as bad as having a high-Int, high-Cha rogue in a city-based inquisition campaign. A character so specialized and squared into one role that everyone else will feel insignificant.
I called a planetar once. My character had nothing on his at-will sla's and +3 holy greatsword! Nothing!
However, you don't have to bother trying to come up with more and more difficult encounters for the group. It's the nature of the Kingmaker AP that a good melee brute who also sports decent saves to avoid hindering conditions will blow through the first two adventures. The invulnerable dwarf is one such meleer, but he's not so very different from a fighter specialized to fend of supernatural threats(Iron Will, Indomitable Faith, being of an elven race, good ac). They both tend to rule in the early levels, with later chapters starting to need more and more support.
We had a similar thing with our barbarian killing opponents nigh-instantly, until enemy hp, ac and supernatural abilities started to catch up and suddenly magical flight, spells, etc were all needed to make him effective. He never lost his luster, but his total combat domination waned once hit levels 7 through 10.
Relax, talk with the player to prevent any possibility of an arms race and pretty soon other members will catch up. Provided they at least semi-decently(so no 12 14 13 14 10 16 -stat array bards/monks or something) built and played intelligently(boots of flying, not speed).
OP: Also, fall on your knees and thank your lucky star that there is no crafting wizard in your party. KM has virtually infinite downtime, and when you start getting a stable kingdom, infinite funds.
The characters in my campain is so ridiculously outfitted that even a APL+1 monster cannot hit the fighters on anything but a nat 20. And the fighter mostly just needs to avoid a 1.
Gonna be fun when some mind-affecter goes "Nice fighter. Guess I'll take it!"
OP: Also, fall on your knees and thank your lucky star that there is no crafting wizard in your party. KM has virtually infinite downtime, and when you start getting a stable kingdom, infinite funds.
The characters in my campain is so ridiculously outfitted that even a APL+1 monster cannot hit the fighters on anything but a nat 20. And the fighter mostly just needs to avoid a 1.
Gonna be fun when some mind-affecter goes "Nice fighter. Guess I'll take it!"
I haven't played, ran, nor read Kingmaker and probably won't but it sounds to me like you let things get out of control. The players should never have so much money and downtime that they can break the system. I think you may have made an error somewhere and things spiraled out of control quickly. I'm not trying to criticize your GMing abilities. I have made similar mistakes in the past and been with GMs who have as well. It can happen very easily.
I haven't played, ran, nor read Kingmaker and probably won't but it sounds to me like you let things get out of control. The players should never have so much money and downtime that they can break the system. I think you may have made an error somewhere and things spiraled out of control quickly. I'm not trying to criticize your GMing abilities. I have made similar mistakes in the past and been with GMs who have as well. It can happen very easily.OP: Also, fall on your knees and thank your lucky star that there is no crafting wizard in your party. KM has virtually infinite downtime, and when you start getting a stable kingdom, infinite funds.
The characters in my campain is so ridiculously outfitted that even a APL+1 monster cannot hit the fighters on anything but a nat 20. And the fighter mostly just needs to avoid a 1.
Gonna be fun when some mind-affecter goes "Nice fighter. Guess I'll take it!"
I have put a choker on funds, since it can lead to social repercussions, and their councilor is a LG cleric of Iomedae who will not stand for manipulation of government money for their own needs.
They just have the time they need to sell what they don't want, and make whatever they want instead. Sure, they are ahead of the wealth/level curve, but not by a lot, though it is a lesson in how much of an effect optimizing equipment 100% can have.
The campain is getting to be mostly a joke, as the AP is designed for someone much weaker, fewer players and gods know what. I am working on making it a challenge, as their effective power is equal to that of a lv15-16 party, despite them being 12, due to point buy, gear and extra party member.
Something to play up, is there a rival group of adventurers out there trying to make their own kingdom?
Note that I do not yet have the Kingmaker Manuals yet, though it is on my 'to do' list.
Players are wandering around, come across a camp-site that's been recently vacated, perhaps a few hours. They hunt down the former owners .... and find they're adventurers, like themselves.
Make them friendly guys for an encounter or two, throw a big CR boss at this combined group and let the two groups support each other.
Then have the Barbarian's counterpart go "And with this, the legend of <NPC Name>'s Kingdom shall spread!", leaving your players to go "Whu-huh?"
go for a real 'shattered mirror' effect here. Barbarian is a walking pile of badassery, make his counterpart something different, a Dexterous Elf Fighter that's all but untouchable in combat.
Counter the Ranger with a Cavalier or for a twist, a Fighter/Rogue. Counter the Druid with an Alchemist or for a twist, an Urban Druid.
Counter the Cleric/Monk with a Paladin, or for a twist, a Witch/Monk.
Counter the Sorcerer with a Sorcerer of an 'opposed' Bloodline, or for a twist, a Summoner.
Now, the intent of the 'Shattered Mirror' Party isn't to cockblock your Players, but to challenge them. Same levels, roughly the same gear and gold, elite arrays, the whole shebang. Barbarian raging away might get in a few hits, but the 'Dancin' Nancy' counterpart should be able to avoid most of the hits with Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack and Wind Stance will really make it harder for the Dwarven Barbarian to make his hits count, but when he does manage to pin down the Elf Fighter, the Hurt is a'comin'.
Furthermore, making up this 'rival party' also puts some pressure on the rest of the players as well. Now I'd normally make some more suggestions but my Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide seems to have disappeared off my hard-drive, so until I can get the damn thing re-downloaded, I'll leave it off there.
May I also suggest encounters where diplomacy and/or other areas where the Dwarf will have to take a back seat occur, such as Negotiations with a Dryad, dealing with a neutral organisation that might be willing to help the PCs out ... if bribed, so on and so forth. Encounters where it's not just "Raaagh it's dead." is the best course of action.
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I'm finding that the party has been getting lazy when it comes to planning and teamwork. When a fight ensues no one really tries to devise tactics or plan a strategy. Everyone kind of does their own thing with the Barbarian typically raging and charging the biggest threat. I've even had other characters ignoring the fight to tend to other things (such as identifying magic items they've just found) because they know that the Barbarian has it covered.
Aha, I got yelled at by my party for doing this same thing (charge + flail indiscriminately with 2HW). Now I hang back to run interference for the wizard and the prima-donna 2WF is complaining because he keeps getting plowed into negative HPs by the mooks I used to keep busy.
Sometimes a barbarian just can't win. >:|
Here comes CourtFool with his usual blathering. Get ready. Are you ready? Here it is.
Talk to your player
Yeah I know. Crazy, huh? Now I know a lot of people here have given you excellent advice so why do you need to go and mess all that up by involving the players. Well, here's the thing. If you talk to the player, he gets an understanding of where you are coming from. He is far less likely to think you are just suddenly, without reason, screwing him over when you start targeting his weaknesses. Added bonus is that he may offer some of his own. He is likely keenly aware of what would really ruin his PC's day and…if you are lucky…he may even share it with you.
This. It works; I've seen it.
My DM in the Curse of the Crimson Throne game I played took me aside at about 6th level and said "your archer is full-attacking many key villains to death, just when the players with melee characters are stepping up to strike. I see the game being not as fun for them. Do you mind toning it back a bit?" And I did just that for the rest of the campaign, allowing the paladin and fighter/rogue to shine much more against the key villains while I kept the enemy mooks under control. I encouraged them to get some key buffs I'd been "hoarding" for myself. And the campaign was a real blast for everyone.
Let the dwarf have his fun. He is the only melee guru in a party of casters and a ranger. Soon enough he will be swinging impotently against miss chance, DR and shaking his fist at fliers. Then the sorcerer, druid, cleric and, to a lesser extent, ranger will be the ones in focus. Pretty much goes like this for melee specs:
Lv1-5: I'm having my day in the sun! I am kicking butt and taking names!
Lv6-10: I am still pretty cool! When the casters disable things, I am still the one moving in for the kill!
Lv11-15: G&%~~@n miss-chance/mirror image/incorporeal/DR/failed reflex and will saves in the everywhere!
Lv16+: Huh? There is a monster that requires physical attacks in a dimension-locked dungeon that bars the casters from summoning stuff that do my job even better? Rock on! I get to do stuff! *rushes in to get beaten to a pulp in 2 rounds unless the casters buff the ever-loving poop out of him*
At least 1 too many people suffer from the delusion that the DM's job is to kill PCs.
If PCs must never die, no matter what they get themselves into and no matter how stupid they are, then why give PCs hp scores? Just be honest with everyone and declare them unkillable.
Let the dwarf have his fun. He is the only melee guru in a party of casters and a ranger. Soon enough he will be swinging impotently against miss chance, DR and shaking his fist at fliers. Then the sorcerer, druid, cleric and, to a lesser extent, ranger will be the ones in focus. Pretty much goes like this for melee specs:
Lv1-5: I'm having my day in the sun! I am kicking butt and taking names!
Lv6-10: I am still pretty cool! When the casters disable things, I am still the one moving in for the kill!
Lv11-15: G$+&~~n miss-chance/mirror image/incorporeal/DR/failed reflex and will saves in the everywhere!
Lv16+: Huh? There is a monster that requires physical attacks in a dimension-locked dungeon that bars the casters from summoning stuff that do my job even better? Rock on! I get to do stuff! *rushes in to get beaten to a pulp in 2 rounds unless the casters buff the ever-loving poop out of him*
Incorporeal is only going to be reducing the damage dealt by 50%. The barbarian will still be dealing decent damage especially when he gets to full attack. DR isn't a problem either if you deal enough damage. Failed Reflex saves might be an issue but those generally deal hit point damage and the barbarian has plenty to spare. Will saves are also not as big of an issue to the barbarian when raging. Ranged attacks aren't an issue either if the player grabs some ranged weapons at some point. If not, then he can find a way to acquire flight. There are several options.
Honestly, no matter how often people say that the melee characters can't do much at upper levels, the truth is that they can especially in Adventure Path campaigns where the adventures are designed so that everyone has something to do. In your experience, with home brewed games, you may be right. It's not a universal truth though and certainly not helpful to this particular GM.
At least 1 too many people suffer from the delusion that the DM's job is to kill PCs.If PCs must never die, no matter what they get themselves into and no matter how stupid they are, then why give PCs hp scores? Just be honest with everyone and declare them unkillable.
This further illustrates the problem I had with your original post. You are equating "Can't kill PCs ever" with "The DM's job is not to kill PCs." Those are NOT the same thing. I didn't say you can't kill PCs, I said your job as DM is not to kill PCs. Your apparent opposition to that just makes my argument for me.
At least 1 too many people suffer from the delusion that the DM's job is to kill PCs.If PCs must never die, no matter what they get themselves into and no matter how stupid they are, then why give PCs hp scores? Just be honest with everyone and declare them unkillable.
I doubt that was what he was saying. I read his statement as: the DM has all the power in the world to kill PCs at any point so why make it the goal? Why not write a great adventure where the characters have a chance to succeed but they are also in peril?
The job of the GM is not to actively seek the destruction of the PCs. That may be the goal of the enemies, but not the GM. If that was his job, then why not make it easy and just throw the 1st level PCs up against an angry Great Wyrm Red Dragon and call it a day. Everyone could just pack up their gaming books and play some Munchkin Cthulhu instead.
Let the dwarf have his fun. He is the only melee guru in a party of casters and a ranger. Soon enough he will be swinging impotently against miss chance, DR and shaking his fist at fliers. Then the sorcerer, druid, cleric and, to a lesser extent, ranger will be the ones in focus. Pretty much goes like this for melee specs:
Lv1-5: I'm having my day in the sun! I am kicking butt and taking names!
Lv6-10: I am still pretty cool! When the casters disable things, I am still the one moving in for the kill!
Lv11-15: G$!###n miss-chance/mirror image/incorporeal/DR/failed reflex and will saves in the everywhere!
Lv16+: Huh? There is a monster that requires physical attacks in a dimension-locked dungeon that bars the casters from summoning stuff that do my job even better? Rock on! I get to do stuff! *rushes in to get beaten to a pulp in 2 rounds unless the casters buff the ever-loving poop out of him*
Level 15: You mean I got to actually change weapons and tactics on occasion like the wizard has had to do in every fight, and cover my weaknesses?
Level 16+: Where are you getting a summoned monster that can out fight, out save, and out live a fighter? Also you really don't know your character classes if you think a fighter at level 16+ can't take out any before him in combat -- prebuffs at that.
Honestly it's like people don't pay to anything suggesting or proving the fighter can do his job at all levels.
At least 1 too many people suffer from the delusion that the DM's job is to kill PCs.If PCs must never die, no matter what they get themselves into and no matter how stupid they are, then why give PCs hp scores? Just be honest with everyone and declare them unkillable.
So here is my stance on the whole killing PCs thing. I handle characters with kid gloves until about level 5. Maybe that one swing takes out the monster even though he has 2 hp left and will full attack the fighter's face making it a TPK. That modest level of fudging. 5 onwards I pull no punches. I don't relish killing a PC but if a character is doing something stupid I don't hold back. There's really only a few levels of danger before level 9 and death becomes a stumbling block anyway.
Generally I think a DM should be neutral to death. Just a few days ago we had a pretty lethal encounter. Party of 3rd or 4th level characters up against a CR 9 (I think higher but w/e) dragon. We were utterly surprised and he nearly TPKed us. 2 were down and stable, the rest ran off to lick our wounds. Dragon was only guarding this room. DM could have had the thing go around and CDG our companions, but instead gave us a chance to play smart, retrieve our companions, and get away. Killing us would not have taught us anything, so why do it? If, as I would humbly submit, higher than normal CR encounters that can one-shot the party only serve a purpose when that purpose is to teach the players that they can't win every fight, then it doesn't help to kill the players after they rather quickly learned their lesson.
Honestly it's like people don't pay to anything suggesting or proving the fighter can do his job at all levels.
I for one happen to think that Fighters do just fine at dishing out damage at all levels with two caveats: 1)dealing damage is less and less important as levels roll on 2)only with a christmas tree of magical gear and/or appropriate buffs.
Honestly it's like people don't pay to anything suggesting or proving the fighter can do his job at all levels.I for one happen to think that Fighters do just fine at dishing out damage at all levels with two caveats: 1)dealing damage is less and less important as levels roll on 2)only with a christmas tree of magical gear and/or appropriate buffs.
I disagree with number 1 for one big reason, save throws are the easiest thing to boost and immunities are plentiful -- thus many of the highly (and erroneously) vaulted SOD effects are actually less useful that simply killing the target is a round of full attack (which honestly isn't that hard to do).
On number 2 I would suggest that the christmas tree isn't as bad as it use to be, and affects everyone more than it did before -- a fighter without magical gear, well of course he's not as good as he would be without it... but he's not useless either due to the new class abilities... though that said I think armor training could have been more than it is.
Honestly it's like people don't pay to anything suggesting or proving the fighter can do his job at all levels.I for one happen to think that Fighters do just fine at dishing out damage at all levels with two caveats: 1)dealing damage is less and less important as levels roll on 2)only with a christmas tree of magical gear and/or appropriate buffs.I disagree with number 1 for one big reason, save throws are the easiest thing to boost and immunities are plentiful -- thus many of the highly (and erroneously) vaulted SOD effects are actually less useful that simply killing the target is a round of full attack (which honestly isn't that hard to do).
On number 2 I would suggest that the christmas tree isn't as bad as it use to be, and affects everyone more than it did before -- a fighter without magical gear, well of course he's not as good as he would be without it... but he's not useless either due to the new class abilities... though that said I think armor training could have been more than it is.
I wasn't even talking about save or dies though. Nearly everyone's game is very similar at low levels, dungeon crawls kill the baddies etc. The system doesn't support a whole lot else and that's fine because that's a fun game. Higher levels recon, scouting, divinations, diplomacy and so forth become invaluable. I know I know this comes down to playstyle, but somehow that's how it always ends up in games I play in. Disaster is averted as much through roleplaying, NPC networking, trading favors with ambassadors as through just stabbing things. Also the actual combat encounters are less and less likely to be "meet on a featureless plain, 60 feet away, go!" and more about aforementioned skills, planning, prep, or gimmicky encounters. I will state again and for the record, I think fighters do just fine at stabbing things in the face, but as soon as you decide you're going to resolve an encounter in some other way the fighter is (in all likelihood) put in the corner.
Even having said that, SOD/SOS spells will still likely do more to make the encounter manageable than the fighter. It is at least as easy to buff AC and Melee Hit/Damage as it is to buff saves.
interesting stuff
Ah well ok. Our play style includes those sorts of things from the get go.
However let me ask you a return question: You are a balor -- you know that the fighter will need about a round to kill you with hits -- but you are worried the wizard will control you, which would be every worse. So you use your unlimited Unholy Aura -- it helps against both and ruins all of the control spells -- also his saves just went up to the point that he makes them on a 1+ against the best DCs a wizard can manage -- so the wizard can waste all day and all his spells waiting for that one -- or the fighter can clean out the Balor and save the spells for other things -- at Absolute Best the wizard will have 9 9th level spells under core assumptions (6 and 3 pearls with all his Int Boosters and a few other items like save boosters) -- after that it's all down hill for him...
So what's he better off doing? Wasting time trying to affect the Balor (who by the way is probably going to be trying to kill the wizard in return) or doing something that is actually useful?
interesting stuffAh well ok. Our play style includes those sorts of things from the get go.
However let me ask you a return question: You are a balor -- you know that the fighter will need about a round to kill you with hits -- but you are worried the wizard will control you, which would be every worse. So you use your unlimited Unholy Aura -- it helps against both and ruins all of the control spells -- also his saves just went up to the point that he makes them on a 1+ against the best DCs a wizard can manage -- so the wizard can waste all day and all his spells waiting for that one -- or the fighter can clean out the Balor and save the spells for other things -- at Absolute Best the wizard will have 9 9th level spells under core assumptions (6 and 3 pearls with all his Int Boosters and a few other items like save boosters) -- after that it's all down hill for him...
So what's he better off doing? Wasting time trying to affect the Balor (who by the way is probably going to be trying to kill the wizard in return) or doing something that is actually useful?
Level cap fights are usually about the worst place to put a hypothetical fight, and the balor fight is a pretty common and silly one. In that situation I'd probably Dominate the fighter while flying, or grapple him with telekinesis (quickened) and full round him. But again, I've never fought a Balor. How about a nice level 15 challenge?
Level cap fights are usually about the worst place to put a hypothetical fight, and the balor fight is a pretty common and silly one. In that situation I'd probably Dominate the fighter while flying, or grapple him with telekinesis (quickened) and full round him. But again, I've never fought a Balor. How about a nice level 15 challenge?
Sure but may I suggest our own thread for it? Just set up the thread and give me the rules you want me to use in the first post and I'll post up tonight (have dinner and kids to take care of presently). Maybe do it as a play by post?
Another strategy would be to use an oracle of nature with their ability to inflict damage to items with touch attacks and destroy his weapon or at least break it. Also if you are willing to dig into some 3.5 stuff you can go into the Complete Arcane and use the backbiter spell. Level 1 sorc/wiz spell. If his weapon is wooden hafted as he swings the head of the weapon twists around to attack the wielder using the wielders attack bonus against his own AC. Best part is as the spell states the wielder gets no warning or knowledge of the spells effect upon his weapon and cannot consciously reduce the damage (by going for non lethal) although his DR will still apply.
Sneak attack oesn't bypass DR: it increases damage so you can help bypass DR.
1d6 swordsword + 1d6 sneak + Str = average 7 +Str damage. So on average it does help.
Actually I'm pretty sure you don't get the precision/sneak/poison damage/effects if you don't do enough damage to bypass the DR. You only get the extra damage/effect if your main attack actually breaks the skin.
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Actually I'm pretty sure you don't get the precision/sneak/poison damage/effects if you don't do enough damage to bypass the DR. You only get the extra damage/effect if your main attack actually breaks the skin.Sneak attack oesn't bypass DR: it increases damage so you can help bypass DR.
1d6 swordsword + 1d6 sneak + Str = average 7 +Str damage. So on average it does help.
Nope the extra damage helps you break the skin better (to use your term) if you are in a position to get sneak attack dice and the target isn't immune you get the dice -- period.
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Just place a monastery of monks in the region. They enjoy their autonomy and don't like the idea of you moving in to control them. (Lawful Evil, or an arrogant LN perhaps?) Therefore, they go out to oppose you. Just toss a few CMB specialized monks out there, and keep the barbarian disarmed, tripping, sundering his weapon, dirty tricking him, and generally keeping him busy. I doubt you'll get too many stunning fists off, but you can try that as well. It's very easy to bump monk ACs and they're versatile enough so that you can make different types of monks to oppose different group members in different ways.
Perhaps their Sensei is a LN Monk/Oracle (Lore/Blindness) who foresaw the party coming and sent his people out to oppose the party? You can play up the encounter by having local peasants warn the party that the monks are powerful, and might make for strong allies if properly diplomacized with. Have some passing bard or acolyte mention that they respect martial prowess, but not senseless violence. So if the party outright kills the monks who ambush them, they can still try diplomacy, but the monks have a worse starting attitude towards them. On the other hand, the seemingly random attack might just have a not so random reason?
Plot hooks abound.
Just place a monastery of monks in the region. They enjoy their autonomy and don't like the idea of you moving in to control them. (Lawful Evil, or an arrogant LN perhaps?) Therefore, they go out to oppose you. Just toss a few CMB specialized monks out there, and keep the barbarian disarmed, tripping, sundering his weapon, dirty tricking him, and generally keeping him busy. I doubt you'll get too many stunning fists off, but you can try that as well. It's very easy to bump monk ACs and they're versatile enough so that you can make different types of monks to oppose different group members in different ways.
Honestly the chance he'll get any CMB off (including sunder) isn't very good at all, please note you can't even sunder a weapon without a weapon of equal or higher enhancement bonus -- so the monk's fists are completely out regardless of the damage they might be able to do unless they have an amulet of the mighty fist.
This further illustrates the problem I had with your original post. You are equating "Can't kill PCs ever" with "The DM's job is not to kill PCs." Those are NOT the same thing.
OK, I read the problem as, "this barbarian hits pretty hard, but he dies if I let him take too much damage." In other words, he's a glass cannon. He keeps raging, rushing into fights, does a bunch of damage... and he can do this with total impunity because the DM is afraid to let him die. To me, "allowing a PC to suffer the consequences of his actions every so often" =/= "is out to kill the PC under any circumstances." The fact that you equate the two suggests to me that you are in fact of the "can't kill PCs ever" crowd, despite your distinction above.
I am not in any way, shape, or form suggesting that the DM should make it a "goal" to kill this PC. Rather, I recommend that the DM not be so anxious to provide him with the plot immunity that he seems to be exploiting so egregiously. I advocate no cheating at all -- no unfair attempts to kill the PC, but, equally, no fudging dice to keep him alive despite getting in over his head.
This further illustrates the problem I had with your original post. You are equating "Can't kill PCs ever" with "The DM's job is not to kill PCs." Those are NOT the same thing.OK, I read the problem as, "this barbarian hits pretty hard, but he dies if I let him take too much damage." In other words, he's a glass cannon.
I don't think you understand what the term "glass cannon" means. ANY character will die if they take X amount of damage. That being how the system works. A Raging 5th level Barbarian is going to have in the neighborhood of 60 HP easily and he stated his has over 70HP plus damage reduction from being an Invulnerable Ranger. I don't think that is anyone's definition of glass cannon.
Also, this thread is about how to deal with him. The "can't stop him without killing him because he has Die Hard" was a side detail. Actively working to kill a character every encounter because he is exceedingly effective is a dick move.
Rather, I recommend that the DM not be so anxious to provide him with the plot immunity that he seems to be exploiting so egregiously.
A laughably absurd statement. An invulnerable raging barbarian with Die Hard has plot immunity at 5th level? Apparently having a lot of HP, the ability to stay up in the negatives, minor DR and the ability to do Raging Barbarian damage is plot immunity. Even more so considering he has already stated that the character HAS died once.
A laughably absurd statement. An invulnerable raging barbarian with Die Hard has plot immunity at 5th level? Apparently having a lot of HP, the ability to stay up in the negatives, minor DR and the ability to do Raging Barbarian damage is plot immunity. Even more so considering he has already stated that the character HAS died once.
Agreed. It is hard as heck for my GM to tear down my defensively geared paladin, since I am constantly touching myself for Xd6 points of healing, and most encounters in the last level has been travel, meaning one encounter per day, which means healing EVERY round.
This character is PERFECT for the same purpose. Limitations of rage is off-set by the lack of multiple encounters. He works at full tilt from start to finish, not a care about the fatigue he never suffers in combat, nor ever having to worry about not having rounds to spare. And diehard on a dwarf barbarian? That's two of his three feats. It is a brilliant feat to have, as the rage-hp goes away when he falls unconscious, meaning he will likely die anyway if he is struck down while raging. I am pretty sure the player sees this as well. Better to die when you run out of rage, getting full use of the (LVx2)+con HP. Sure, the cleric needs to have a potent healing spell ready for him, but this game is all about cooperation.
Buuuuut...
Disregard my praise if he is the kind of idiot who just charges headlong into melee and pouts when his stupidity comes back to bite him, and he relies on the GM to keep him alive for the story. I kill those characters myself. Now they have learned to stay within the cleric's channel range and work as a team.
I removed a post and a reply to it. Lets keep things civil, eh?
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This further illustrates the problem I had with your original post. You are equating "Can't kill PCs ever" with "The DM's job is not to kill PCs." Those are NOT the same thing.OK, I read the problem as, "this barbarian hits pretty hard, but he dies if I let him take too much damage." In other words, he's a glass cannon.I don't think you understand what the term "glass cannon" means. ANY character will die if they take X amount of damage. That being how the system works. A Raging 5th level Barbarian is going to have in the neighborhood of 60 HP easily and he stated his has over 70HP plus damage reduction from being an Invulnerable Ranger. I don't think that is anyone's definition of glass cannon.
Also, this thread is about how to deal with him. The "can't stop him without killing him because he has Die Hard" was a side detail. Actively working to kill a character every encounter because he is exceedingly effective is a dick move.
The op wasn't looking for ways to kill him. This isn't a "fighters cannot have nice things" thread - please try to comprehend that.
This is about one character's power level being out of whack with others in his group and a DM looking for a way to mechanically challenge him and not wipe out the rest of the party in the process.
That's it, nothing more.
And I wouldn't say the barb is a glass canon. He is an "all or nothing" character.
He can't be placed in position of threat or fear - what most PCs would perceive as a warning of being in over their head, i.e. when going into negative hit points this guy just takes as another day of work. There is no gray zone, he either kills everything or dies at going below neg hp - there is no middle ground with this character. So again an "all or nothing" character and he stands to not learn any lessons since once he is in over his head he is then in Raise Dead territory.
As I stated in my first response I think the DM is making a mistake by letting the PCs control the number of encounters while they are in the wilderness. 1 to 2 a day as fixed is way too gamey and in this case proves to be gimmicky for the barb player. He gets to redline, the whole party gets to redline their powers in 1 to 2 encounters and then he wonders why they have so many resources per encounter?
The DM complained about too many resources being available yet does little to challenge their ability to regulate their resources (hp, spells, healing).
This is a DM problem not a player problem.