I like the book, as somone playing with a group who has played the game for a long time I found it helpful. One of the parts my DM realized he was doing wrong was the habit of suddenly making everone spread out soon as the PC's get fireball or cleave. Which is something the book adressed and hey said 'hey i didnt realize i had been doing that'
I think the NPC statblocks are great and I didnt read anything into the 'cannibal' NC beyond what was intended, the sort of bad guy barbarian npcs a DM might use... in this cae he slapped the young template on them and made them dwarves and we faught pygmie cannibal dwarves. IF they had just been labeled 'tribal warrior' he still may have thought of this, i dont know.
I also liked the Chase bit.
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I like the book, as somone playing with a group who has played the game for a long time I found it helpful. One of the parts my DM realized he was doing wrong was the habit of suddenly making everone spread out soon as the PC's get fireball or cleave.
Wow, the book tells you how to play dumb monsters?
Like I said, I don't have the book with me today. I do recall the page with the pre-generated native american cannibals to be a touch racist. "Chiefs of the indigenous people lead packs of cannibals to eat the flesh of white travelers..." it was something along those lines.
It wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't for the artwork of the native american on the side to give an example of what a cannibal looks like.
I'd also like to know how the ecology of the game world supports the 9th level town mayor as a basic pre-gen. I suppose anyone with the stuff to run a town has the stuff to slaughter 5 or 6 thousand goblins.
I particularly dislike the repeated advice to fudge dice or change things in the background (high road and low road lead to the same NPC). If they are giving that sort of advice to newb game masters, and who can blame them sense they sell long series of modules, I think they should have written more about how to tell lies without being transparent.
If I had the book, I could give page numbers. Unfortunately, that is the best I can do from memory.
Anything can be racist, sexist, or some other "ist" if you want it to believe it bad enough. I am not saying these things don't take place, but some people are just too sensitive or they try to look for things. Seek and ye shall find.
You know, using the middle experience table, a party of four can level up every couple of games, every two or three really, fighting absolutely nothing that has an honest chance of killing them. If you start stacking on experience for talking to people characters will be leveling every other session.
Which leads to one logical conclusion of the game: 17 year old supermen.
Another one is the 9th level town mayor, which is by my count stupid as all hell, because if he got those levels by being great at leading his people by talking, he shouldn't have such awesome killing ability for no reason. I guess sense he lives in the D&D world, all that talking gave him the drive to do two finger pushups and the superhuman reflexes to kill a dozen men.
You would be right if going up in levels didn't actually confer killing ability, but a 9th level town mayor is awesome at fighting. If it said he had 12 hit points, an AC of 12, and a +14 to Diplomacy, sure I'd buy that. If it said he had 2nd level fighting and 9th level talking, I'd buy that as a basic write up as well. That isn't how Pathfinder works. 9th level fighting, as a regular mayor of a regular town? That is a lot of 9th level fighters all over the world, a lot of Huma Dragonbanes.
Ah my son. The XP is not for "talking" as you put it, but for accomplishing things. The mayor may have been n ex adventure, and level does not automatically mean power. It could be a level 8 commoner, level 1 expert that is a mayor. I am sure a 4th level party kicks his butt. Maybe even a 3rd.
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I like the book, as somone playing with a group who has played the game for a long time I found it helpful. One of the parts my DM realized he was doing wrong was the habit of suddenly making everone spread out soon as the PC's get fireball or cleave.Wow, the book tells you how to play dumb monsters?I suspect the book tells them not to change their playstyle based on the abilities the PC's have that the NPC's don't know about.
It would be pretty jarring to me if the mooks had been fighting in close groups, and suddenly when I gain an ability to effectively combat close groups of mooks their tactics change.
I'm sure it isn't that involved. Nothing about Pathfinder suggests that.
StuffEver consider that maybe the Town Mayor was a hero in his times past who retired and settled down, and was elected Mayor BECAUSE of his adventuring career and the popularity it gained him?Sure, but I don't need that written up in a book anymore than I need "Orc Warband Leader" with 5 levels of Barbarian written up for me. I can make my specials on my own. What would have made the pre-generated characters useful is if they were generic enough to drop anywhere and be what's expected.
I can only use heroic 9th level town mayor once, or else I'll have people imagining my game world as land of the heroic town mayors.
You can, but not everyone has time to write up NPC's or they be limited to a small number. The players may go off the rails and force you to need NPC stat "now". The book helps out in that regard. Who said all mayors were heroes? Being facetious won't help your case.
Ah my son. The XP is not for "talking" as you put it, but for accomplishing things. The mayor may have been n ex adventure, and level does not automatically mean power. It could be a level 8 commoner, level 1 expert that is a mayor. I am sure a 4th level party kicks his butt. Maybe even a 3rd.
If you look back a few posts, you'll see the OP has a post saying he doesn't feel the players should get XP for 'just talking'. That's a carrot they don't need, because they will do it without the 'cookie'.
As I posted earlier, a completely alien mindset to me. He says they should get XP for puzzles and quests, but not roleplaying. I really don't get the difference, to me, if you spend 2 hours RPing out getting information about your quest, that's part of solving the quest. If you spend 2 hours RPing out helping the locals orphanage and rebuilding part of it after the orc assault, then that's part of your quest as adventurers. It's a bit of quest that the players initiated, and they should be rewarded for it. The OP seems to feel only death and strict adherence to his bullet point pre-game list of puzzles and quests should get XP, and player initiative should not be rewarded.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: Stereotypes and 'reading them in'.
Considering that part of Carson's experience was being held prisoner by eugenics nuts, that in his Mars books the most advanced/accepting race was the red Martians and the degenerate race were the white Martians, that's quite a stretch. More likely he was mocking them.
Same thing goes for being 'offended' at the native american (looked kind of Asian to me) shaman being next to the cannibal.
Option 1 : Voice concerns over how some elements are offensive and be called overly sensitive and overly PC.
Option 2 : Just take it and keep quiet and let things continue and stew as they have for the past few decades.
I never said you were wrong for exercising either option. There's also a third option: Ignore it. That's what I tend to do. In a world with so many actual things that are genuinely offensive, I don't have the time or energy to get worked up about fiction.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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So, am I the only one who didn't think the OP's concerns, once explained, weren't entirely unreasonable? They seem somewhat minor, so I'm surprised his reaction was that the book was so bad that he lost faith in the hardcovers generally, but, by the same token, they also seemed minor enough to not warrant the full dogpile that followed.
I hate Ayn Rand.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So, am I the only one who didn't think the OP's concerns, once explained, weren't entirely unreasonable? They seem somewhat minor, so I'm surprised his reaction was that the book was so bad that he lost faith in the hardcovers generally, but, by the same token, they also seemed minor enough to not warrant the full dogpile that followed.
I thought they were minor and reaching in points *shrug* if anyone should be offended, I'd think it would be me with the lack of positive left handed role models :-)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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So, am I the only one who didn't think the OP's concerns, once explained, weren't entirely unreasonable? They seem somewhat minor, so I'm surprised his reaction was that the book was so bad that he lost faith in the hardcovers generally, but, by the same token, they also seemed minor enough to not warrant the full dogpile that followed.I thought they were minor and reaching in points *shrug* if anyone should be offended, I'd think it would be me with the lack of positive left handed role models :-)
There can be no positive left handed role models. All lefties are inherently evil, taking great delight in human suffering.
I know because...
I just know stuff. What? Did you think I was going to cop to being left-handed here? Not going to happen. I am one of the superior, right-handed members of the species. Some day, me and my right-handed brethern will purge the lefties from the globe, finally ending the tyranny of left-handed scissors and awkward seating at close dinner tables. Some day!
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I hate Ayn Rand.That kind of came out of nowhere... mind explaining how it's relevant to this thread?
I think he's saying Ayn Rand was secretly a kender. Or he just hates people who sub a "y" if their name doesn't strictly require it.
But I'm pretty sure it's the kender thing, she's not listed as a contributor to the GMG.
Ah my son. The XP is not for "talking" as you put it, but for accomplishing things. The mayor may have been n ex adventure, and level does not automatically mean power. It could be a level 8 commoner, level 1 expert that is a mayor. I am sure a 4th level party kicks his butt. Maybe even a 3rd.If you look back a few posts, you'll see the OP has a post saying he doesn't feel the players should get XP for 'just talking'. That's a carrot they don't need, because they will do it without the 'cookie'.
As I posted earlier, a completely alien mindset to me. He says they should get XP for puzzles and quests, but not roleplaying. I really don't get the difference, to me, if you spend 2 hours RPing out getting information about your quest, that's part of solving the quest. If you spend 2 hours RPing out helping the locals orphanage and rebuilding part of it after the orc assault, then that's part of your quest as adventurers. It's a bit of quest that the players initiated, and they should be rewarded for it. The OP seems to feel only death and strict adherence to his bullet point pre-game list of puzzles and quests should get XP, and player initiative should not be rewarded.
ok. I do agree with you though that RP should be rewarded.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It's a bear on a unicycle. I'm not sure coherent thoughts or on-topic posts are his specialty. He's a bear. That rides a unicycle. And possibly s~##s in the woods.I hate Ayn Rand.That kind of came out of nowhere... mind explaining how it's relevant to this thread?
And uses ponies for toilet paper.
Quit s#!%ting in my woods! :pAnd possibly s%%%s in the woods.But don't we all?..
I spelled your name in them for you!
Since I'm on a unicycle, it's in cursive!
What kind of bear eats corn? Ew.Bears are the goats of the forest. Ask any ranger at Yellowstone... they'll eat ANYTHING you leave behind.
Ayn Rand books taste terrible.
Must be all the cardboard characters.
Ayn Rand books taste terrible.
At least I got the fiber, since I'm not allowed in the woods by restraining order.
Removed some posts - we all play the game, and the way we play may not match with each other's visions of how to play.
Please carry on with your critique of the GameMastery Guide and why it didn't work for you (or if it did, why) - we are listening!
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I think there were tribal cannibals in Heart of Darkness (the classic story by Joseph Conrad) too, but it has been thirteen years since I read it and I can't remember. That may actually be classified as Imperial Literary Racism though, if such a term exists. That story was more about Imperialist persecution of the native peoples of Africa and the corruption born of absolute power than anything though.
I've read it recently. I don't recall any cannibals in "Heart of Darkness." There is (attempted) cannibalism in "Robinson Crusoe" by Defoe, but that is in the Pacific. There WERE severed heads stuck on spears in HoD, but
Chinua Achebe (author of "Things Fall Apart") has a WONDERFUL critique that shows how, as much as Conrad was critiquing imperialism with his story, he could still not escape the mindset of his time and place, and so presented a flawed picture of the Dutch in the Congo that both painted the Dutch (Kurtz) as more powerful than they could be (in becoming chief of the tribes) and less (in the idea that "going native" implied a weakness of will against a magical moral degeneracy endemic to the tropics).
There is no need to say Imperial Literary Racism. Imperialist literature builds upon a dichotomy between the conquerors and the subjected native peoples, so while it may or may not have an overtly "racist" character (that is, an overt racial justification for the imperialism taking place), it seldom ever has an objective view of the conquered. Post-Imperpialist literature (and the Post part is debateable, depending on who you talk to) is about creating new images/fictions of formerly subjected people, from authors such as Chinua Achebe and Nadine Gordimer. But Robert Howard et. al. were writing when the sun still hadn't set on the British Empire. As Napoleon said, "The winners write the history books" - and the pulp fiction too!
We're arguing about the ethnicity of the cannibal? The cannibal?
Has internet porn taught us nothing?
The only question that matters is, "What ethnicity is the prostitute?"
You do know the whole "noble savage"/"evil cannibal savage" trope came out of very racist 19th Century lit, right?
;-)
I can't wait for the GMG 2:
"Female NPCs can be saintly madonnas or filthy whores, or anything in between."
;-)
I feel Paizo is great not because they avoid offense, but because they actively promote minorities in gaming. Black female paladins and white female barbarians. No mono-themed races among the humans. Gay paladins, lesbian master at arms, the list goes on. Paizo has apologetically promoted a diversity within their...Oh no, I've been defeated. I'll post this on the OP.
Edit - I guess you get a limited amount of time to edit posts here. Still, thanks (;
I didn't mean to 'defeat you', assuming you aren't being sarcastic here. Also, if I said apologetically, I meant unapologetically. They've fiercely promoted diversity.
I look at it this way. Native American racism. It's a fairly mundane non-action to avoid referring to them as 'red skins'. No one gives you a cookie for that, it is assumed people don't use racial slurs.
Then there is being 'PC'. Getting rid of pictures of "Indians" at war with cowboys, removing all potential for offense by just avoiding the subject entirely, etc. That's a false peace as far as I'm concerned.
But trying to learn more about Native Americans, and their values, and perhaps revitalize those values or pass them on to your community, etc....that's a bigger deal. That takes more effort, and is aimed at bettering/furthering them rather than just avoiding offense.
I feel Paizo as a company pushes for the latter approach, and as torchbearers of a genre literally built around stereotypes and tropes, doesn't worry as much about the PC bit.
Removed some posts - we all play the game, and the way we play may not match with each other's visions of how to play.
Please carry on with your critique of the GameMastery Guide and why it didn't work for you (or if it did, why) - we are listening!
So, the only person still on topic in the thread is an employee? :D
I've played / DMd since 1974. I bought the book as a "read" and enjoyed it as such. I nodded "yep" at most of the advice, demmured over a couple things and picked up a couple of ideas. The tables were nice. As for the NPCs, I have a couple of binders full of them. The ones in the GMG made for an interesting look into what someone else thought was appropriate for a given role. All in all, a nice book, a good read, but not terribly useful to me as a GM. But I knew that going in, having looked at what was printed about the contents before I bought it. The minor quibble over art and cannibals is not much of a complaint to my mind nor should it warrant the acrimony some have expressed for the book or the complainees...|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Removed some posts - we all play the game, and the way we play may not match with each other's visions of how to play. Please carry on with your critique of the GameMastery Guide and why it didn't work for you (or if it did, why) - we are listening!
Liz, you've identified what I found most regrettable about the GMG. You say "the way we play may not match with each other's visions of how to play". The GMG gives good advice about how to game-master like the folks at Paizo, but could have brought bigger issues to the table.
Raise your hand if you remember Ray Winnager's "Dungeoncraft" column. And keep them raised if you remember Monte Cook's continuation of "Dungeoncraft", or if you've read Wolfgang Baur's columns, or Jason Nelson-Brown's "Behind the Screen" or "Save My Game" series on the WotC website. Even though each author has good, solid advice, you'll notice that they think different aspects of the GM craft are important, and their perspectives on things like challenging encounters, world building, bringing NPCs to life, and even GM dice-fudging -- they're all different.
I thought the D&D 4th Edition Dungeon Master's Guide did an outstanding job of providing (a) solid advice borne of experience, (b) highlights into what areas of DMing were open questions or issues of style, and (c) more than one answer to some of those open questions.
Indeed, one of the things about DMing that I learned from the 4th Edition DMG, after all this time, was how I might consider changing my style in response to different situations. How running players through a horror adventure, or through their first demonstration of the game system, could affect my style behind the screen.
Make no mistake: I think the GMG is a useful book, for what it does. But on the topic of whether it tries to present "one, good way to GM" versus provide a referee with the tools to develop her own outstanding style, I think it comes closer to a compilation of an individual writer's "Dungeoncraft" articles, rather than the 4th Edition DMG.
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But trying to learn more about Native Americans, and their values, and perhaps revitalize those values or pass them on to your community, etc....that's a bigger deal. That takes more effort, and is aimed at bettering/furthering them rather than just avoiding offense.
I feel Paizo as a company pushes for the latter approach, and as torchbearers of a genre literally built around stereotypes and tropes, doesn't worry as much about the PC bit.
Well put! I was going to post something similar but you beat me to it. Trying to avoid stereotypes in a fantasy roleplaying game is a lost cause, IMO. But being aware of their history and sources when you use them, and making a clear delination between the game and the people playing it, can help.
Is Paizo enabling racist ideas, or encouraging a certain subjectivity, by presenting stereotypes in the game? I don't know. They aren't letting those notions "die" if they include them in their books, but they aren't the originators of human bias, either. The thing about using racist/sexist/etc. tropes in game is that you ARE building on ideas that define people in ways that have been used to subjugate them/discriminate against them. But Paizo is also mitigating those views, or subverting them, s/a with Seelah and Amiri.I think it depends on your game, how you appropriate the tropes and notions behind them, and how familiar you are with their origins, and how deft you are as a GM or Gamer to present the tropes in a way that sheds new light on them.
I was hoping some other people would gang up on it with me, but sense that isn't happening, late tonight or tomorrow I'll post some specific examples. I'm at "work" right now.
For what it's worth, I thought many of the NPCSs in the GMG were of limited utility given the game's demographic assumptions (and a good dose of my own personal bias). For me, the concept of some random king being level 12 (for example) just doesn't work. YMMV. :)
But for the most part I thought it was a pretty good book.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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FWIW, I was pretty offended by a certain devil in the Bestiary of Council of Thieves #25, moreso by the illustration than the description.
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Wait, because the devil has a big nose it came across as anti-semitic? You're right that our PC sensitivity is not calibrated so highly. But I'm glad you liked the nephilim!
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FWIW, I was pretty offended by a certain devil in the Bestiary of Council of Thieves #25, moreso by the illustration than the description.
>>>Wait, because the devil has a big nose it came across as anti-semitic? You're right that our PC sensitivity is not calibrated so highly. But I'm glad you liked the nephilim!
Well, I said it is my personal perception. I wasn't actively looking to find anything anti-semitic in the book, quite the contrary. When I read the article, that's what I felt, and it surprised me. It stems mostly the way the devil looks, with the nose and the beard, and what I've seen in medieval manuscripts, and in cartoon stereotypes of Jews, that made me think that. But it wasn't just that. If it was just the picture, I could dismiss it. It is the picture plus the text: They stoke the fires in Moloch's Citadel Ba'al, and "it is said all ukobachs know the secret of creating berith, an alchemical element by which any material might be distilled into gold." And they trade that knowledge to alchemists for outrageous prices.
You can say, well, that's generally medieval sources. That's how they thought of Moloch and Ba'al, and of alchemists and "forbidden knowledge." Yes, it is. But the medieval church also acribed secret alchemical knowledge and trade in such to Jews. That is why I made that connection.Other than that, I think the game mechanics/stat block is pretty nifty. I'd just change the flavor text if I used it.