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At the levels at which you can get Staggering Critical, action economy is the name of the game. So a feat that hits the target with an action debuff condition like staggered is very useful, especially when your main melee bruiser badguys rely on full attacks for any significant damage output. Sure, there's a save, but even if the target makes the save, they're still staggered for 1 round.
My wife's character is a mobile fighter dual-wielding rapiers with Staggering Critical. She can pretty reliably crit at least one of her 5+ attacks in a round. Dealing with a melee boss usually goes down like this: move in and Rapid Attack, boss is staggered for 1 round; boss gets his standard action 1 hit; wife shreds with full attack, boss either dies or gets staggered again.
Throwing in lots of mooks doesn't really help because mooks can't really hit anybody in the party; they're just damage/action sponges.
So, Staggering Critical: too good, or just good? Thoughts? Let's stop short of bandying about the "b" word ("broken")--that's never helpful in any discussion on these boards.
My wife's character is a mobile fighter dual-wielding rapiers with Staggering Critical.
Rapier is finessable, but not light, IIRC -- so you're looking at like a -6 offhand penalty unless you invest yet another feat in Oversize TWF.
It's REALLY hard to crit with that kind of minus.|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Yep, she has Oversized TWF. She was PF converted from a 3.5 STAP swashbuckler/rogue and the mobile fighter was just the best fit without upconverting the whole generally sucky swashbuckler class*. I grandfathered in a few 3.5 feats like Oversized TWF and Improved Buckler Defense. Not that it matters much from a mechanical standpoint; you could just as easily do a dual kukri mobile fighter for the same effect minus, on average, 1 point of damage.
*
There are also ways to avoid being critted in the first place. Some class features, feats, and spells can lower or prevent it. Also having a single BBEG vs a party is usually over very quickly unless the BBEG has a method of stopping attacks, moving out of reach of multiple attackers, or other defense.
It requires a crit and a confirmation roll. I don't think it is that bad. A caster can surround multiple enemies with a fog spell that drops movement in half, and stops you from seeing opponents more than 5 feet away with no save.
I don't understand the clause about not stacking but adding to the duration though.
Right, Fortification is the name of the game here... the forgotten brother to Crit based optimization.
Given that it can go on either Armor/Bracers or Shields, it`s very reasonable to see at least Light/Moderate Fortification... and Armor Bonuses are some of the cheaper bonus types.
Likewise, BBEG`s should have decentish saves, and if they are melee based, Fort shouldn`t be a problem.
Getting 1 re-roll a day shouldn´t be a problem either, and likewise should be on BBEG`s shopping lists when converting to PRPG.
But yeah, it should be a great way for melee/archers to take care of the stronger mook types that can`t always killed outright as quick as you´d want.
I think it`s only VERY powerful (i definitely agree it`s powerful) against low Fort Save enemies (usually Caster types) especially those with not many Feats to spare for Save Feats, i.e. without class levels that grant bonus feats. As Ruemere mentioned, though Arcane Casters may well have the weakest Saves, as Ruemere mentions, they are the LEAST effected by Staggered because max Spell Levels aren`t dependent on Full Rounds like Full Attacks are (i.e. their scaling isn`t chopped off at the knees). Stunning Crit is alot higher level (and at that level, all these defences should be automatic for BBEGs).
Generally speaking, I think putting a BIT more creative effort when converting NPCs, to give them the most of PRPG, will result in much better effects. If mooks just don`t hit, it would make an AWFUL lot of sense if their martial-type boss had a few levels in Cavalier to grant them all those insane Teamwork feats. 3.5 Fighter is so EMPTY that there is really no reason you NEED to convert it to a straight PRPG Fighter, all the PRPG Fighter abilities are just as new as abilities gained from Cavalier, etc. If mooks don´t hit, a melee boss with those mooks just isn´t going to be very succesfull, right? So what would such a character organically do when levelling up? Take some stuff to ensure their schtick WORKS... pretty simple. There really isn`t any more choices here than going full Fighter, which has a load of new class abilities as well. If the enemies have been working together for a while, it makes complete sense for their Feat selection to be very synergetic, and there´s alot of Feats that work that way.
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Incredibly weak, not a big deal at all in any decently made encounter. Which means if you're having problems, Savage Tide is too easy.Codzilla's got the right of it, although he might be exaggerating just a hair. If the feat forced a save on every hit, and granted a bonus to the DC on a crit instead (with the bonus based on the Crit multiplier), it would be a lot better.
Yes it would be better. But you also have to remember you just did critical damage so there is a good shot whatever you hit is dead anyway.
It's not overpowered at all in my opinion, just one of many options that could be very useful for a high crit range build.
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Not exaggerating. First you have to crit, which means it's automatically too unreliable to be used. Then the enemy has to fail a save. The DC isn't very high. 23 when you first get it. Which means that in my games, where everybody is buffed using SPC spells, and everybody is optimized up the wazoo the whole party saves on a 2.
Fixed.
You could always have the BEBG sunder her rapiers. A broken weapon only crits on a 20, so it should bring down her staggering by quite a bit.
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First you have to crit, which means it's automatically too unreliable to be used. Then the enemy has to fail a save. The DC isn't very high. 23 when you first get it. Which means the whole party saves on a 2.
By 20th level a non crit specialized fighter can have a chance of 60-70% of critting (automatically confirmed) on at least one attack of a full attack (80%+ for a crit specialized or TWF fighter). That's good odds even compared to your favorite save or sucks. And note that it staggers you even on a passed save, the only thing the save determines is duration (1 round vs 1d4+1 rounds). The saving throw DC is largely irrelevant because the effect works on a passed save.
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It's a good feat for either a duel kukri fighter or ranger.
As much a CODzilla often overstates his points- negatives of the feat are 1. Has a preq that is subpar
2. Relies on high crit keen weapons to come up alot (kukri, scimitar, falchion)
3. Allows a save.So on a TWF class with keen kukri's 7 attacks in a round means you have a very good chance of landing a crit BUUUTT the enemy could save.
Meaning that the target is still Staggered, but only for one round. The character can still do it every round (which, given the 7 attacks in your example, is reasonably likely).
So you're full attacking? Which means you're right next to something that can kill you in 1-2 full attacks and has already gotten 1? Nothing else cares about the status after all. And the enemy has to roll a 1 to fail? And the enemy has to not be immune... which at these levels is not likely?First you have to crit, which means it's automatically too unreliable to be used. Then the enemy has to fail a save. The DC isn't very high. 23 when you first get it. Which means the whole party saves on a 2.By 20th level a non crit specialized fighter can have a chance of 60-70% of critting (automatically confirmed) on at least one attack of a full attack (80%+ for a crit specialized or TWF fighter). That's good odds even compared to your favorite save or sucks. And note that it staggers you even on a passed save, the only thing the save determines is duration (1 round vs 1d4+1 rounds). The saving throw DC is largely irrelevant because the effect works on a passed save.
There are several ways to get a full attack + a move in Pathfinder, but even if it can kill you in two full attacks, it's probably not going to get two, because you can't full attack while staggered.
As to your line about failing, you didn't read the post you are replying to, clearly (nor the feat). I will repeat. You are staggered even if you pass the save. Yes, the DC is low, but it does not matter because the same effect happens to you if you pass the save as if you fail it.
Out of the entire array of monsters CR 15-25 in the PRD, how many are immune to crits?
I'll give you a hint. One whole monster, which is CR 19. One lonely monster. Saying "not likely" is BS.
You could always have the BEBG sunder her rapiers. A broken weapon only crits on a 20, so it should bring down her staggering by quite a bit.Read up on sunder. It's harder in Pathfinder. In addition to beating CMD you have to have a higher enhancement weapon than the one you are sundering.
I have noticed that some monsters that have natural attacks have improved sunder. Do you allow them to sunder magic weapons assuming you do use sunder? I do think it was an oversight to not give them an ability that states they can sunder magical weapon.
While staggering crit is nice, a heightened slow spell is going to have similar effects. It might be better to choose a non overlapping crit effect.
While staggering crit is nice, a heightened slow spell is going to have similar effects. It might be better to choose a non overlapping crit effect.
I think the OP is either a player or DM with a melee build in question though.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Coriat understands why I am saying Stag Crit is so good. It matters very little how easy or hard the save is. Target is staggered for at least a round regardless of the save, and out of 5+ attacks at 15-20 threat range, at least one is likely to crit.
And of course it is not as useful against casters or creatures using standard action (Sp) or (Su) abilities. But against pretty much any melee or archer type that relies on full attacks to deal damage it's a near-total lockdown if you can base the enemy at all.
And let me point out one more time that I am not looking for ways to challenge my wife's character or build encounters that mitigate the effectiveness of Stag Crit. I know how to do those things already. I am interested to hear about other folks' experiences with the feat in play.
It's fine. You have to confirm a crit to use it, which means you're already dealing massive damage. Honestly, if you're attacking and critting enough to make Staggering Critical trigger frequently, the enemies are pretty much going to have a more dangerous condition applied already: dead.
Besides, it's far weaker than the vast majority of middle and top tier spells at that level, anyway.
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In our games, it's pretty weak. Yeah for a TWF improved crit kukuri fighter you may end up crittinng 60+% of the time...but then again your playing a TWF kukuri fighter for how many levels before it pays off? Dazing and stunning assaults are WAY better options and ever since the APG nobody bothers with the crit line anymore.
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You could always have the BEBG sunder her rapiers. A broken weapon only crits on a 20, so it should bring down her staggering by quite a bit.
Breaking a weapon is a lot harder than it used to be. First you have to have a magical weapon of equal or better bonus then you have to make the CMB check, finally you have to deal enough damage. The funny thing is, nothing in the bestiary can manage to sunder much more than a +1 magical weapon.
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I have noticed that some monsters that have natural attacks have improved sunder. Do you allow them to sunder magic weapons assuming you do use sunder? I do think it was an oversight to not give them an ability that states they can sunder magical weapon.You could always have the BEBG sunder her rapiers. A broken weapon only crits on a 20, so it should bring down her staggering by quite a bit.Read up on sunder. It's harder in Pathfinder. In addition to beating CMD you have to have a higher enhancement weapon than the one you are sundering.
I can't think of a sunder dependent creature off the top of my head, so it hasn't really come up to much in game. If I were to use it I would follow rule and let them sunder objects but not weapons.
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You could always have the BEBG sunder her rapiers. A broken weapon only crits on a 20, so it should bring down her staggering by quite a bit.Breaking a weapon is a lot harder than it used to be. First you have to have a magical weapon of equal or better bonus then you have to make the CMB check, finally you have to deal enough damage. The funny thing is, nothing in the bestiary can manage to sunder much more than a +1 magical weapon.
Some things in the bestiary have weapons, like solars. Also things that are advanced with magic weapons.
But you are right, it is mostly for PCs rather than against.
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Yeah, Crit feats are something I will never take unless I don't qualify for anything else I want. They just aren't reliable enough to warrant a serious investment.
Crit feats are good if you are building to have a lot of attacks and are using a high crit range. When you have 7 attacks and crit on a 15, it's pretty nice to add 2d6 of bleed damage for example.
It is all about your build, but also the fact that you have a feat every level if your a fighter.
Charlie, imo staggered critical is very good, probably to good. PFRPG and APG both embrace the "no fail" concept for a lot of mechanics to help make them more useful. Even if u save something bad happens but at a lesser degree. That way players don't feel cheated when they take a feat, and it doesn't meet expectations they at least get some pay off. It's feel good gaming man. You and I have had many a chat about several of the concepts like this in PFRPG especially the apg and how they work in our group. I think the responses to your poll verify that the usefulness of this feat is dependent upon the game. Never forget my friend, the integrity of your game OS more important than RAW.
Besides using ways to avoid crits...Remove Paralysis (2nd lvl spell) gets rid of the staggered condition . . .
I'd rather be staggered than paralyzed, confused, etc . . .
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Staggering Strike (Su): Starting at 1st level, when you
confirm a critical hit, the target must succeed a Fortitude
saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 your bloodrager level + your
Constitution modifier) or be staggered for 1 round. These
effects stack with the Staggering Critical feat. The target
must save against each effect individually.
You could always limit Staggering Crit to 1 attempt per round like Stunning Fist, so you wouldn't get to rattle of a bunch of attempts?
Dazing spell, crazy good or just too good?