I find it strange looking through this thread and thinking, its not a matter of 'if', but a matter of 'when'.
Allow me to summarize my argument in three words: "Artwork is EXPENSIVE."
Which is also why you can be assured that if we did a project like this, we wouldn't be reprinting any art that didn't work out the first time, either.All ready in PRPG products I've seen two pieces of art that to my eye come straight from Burnt Offerings.
1: The cover of the Inner Sea Primer clearly shows to my eye an updated view of the Thistletop art from BO, complete with head-like island, wooden stockade, and, of course, goblins.
2: Is more debatable: In the Book of the Damned Vol. 2, Lords of Chaos, the chapter three title picture shows what I think to be an updated Nualia on a throne, complete with demon-like arm and goblins in the foreground.
One picture I might see as one of the editors going for a favorite scene and paying to re-imagine it. Two, tells me that there's something in the works, however far out that might be.
That's my reasoning. If you have cause to disagree, please tell me your thoughts.
Ohhhhh....methinks you're on to something...
:)
I very much hope a reissue is in the works and would readily buy it, but I hope that it would be more than just a straight-up exercise in stat-block conversion and art replacement.
I would like to see changes made for either story reasons or mechanical reasons anywhere that the Paizo folks, with years of retrospect at this point, see room for improvement. I would also love to see new encounters, side-treks, and maybe whole chapters throughout,(they did this to some extent with Shackled City, as I understand it) so that the overall level span of the AP could now go all the way up to level 20. I want my PCs to reach that culminating phase where they can hurl 9th level spells and use pinnacle abilities in their showdown with the campaign's big baddy.
Trying to tack on extra play at the end of an AP seems really difficult to me for two reasons. First, the narrative arc of the previous 16 levels of play is complete, so the investment in whatever new plot the GM creates is always a bit weak, comparatively. Second, high-level play is the most difficult to stat out and balance - I'd be delighted to leave it to the pros.
If a reissue solves that problem, I will pay plenty of money for it and will dedicate the next couple of years of my life to running Rise of the Runelords. Done deal.
Chief Technical Officer
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I would also love to see new encounters, side-treks, and maybe whole chapters throughout,(they did this to some extent with Shackled City, as I understand it) so that the overall level span of the AP could now go all the way up to level 20....
Folks should note that even if we just took all six of the adventures and *none* of the supplemental material (some of which is actually necessary to run the campaign), we'd be talking about 300 pages right there. Without actually going back and checking, I'd estimate that at least half of the supplemental material would need to be included as well, bringing the page count to 450—and that's with no new material.
Remember also that high-level adventures are bigger than low-level—that it, it takes more pages to describe the parts that take you from 16th to 17th than it does to describe the parts that takes you from 6th to 7th—so it wouldn't surprise me if it would require upwards of 600 pages to cover 20 levels.
Of course, there's also a dramatic issue to consider here—the AP already builds to a climax, and tacking on a *new* climax would be hard to do without it *feeling* tacked on...
In short, I wouldn't expect to see that kind of change.
All I'm saying is that, as someone who owns all six RotRL adventures (probably a typical thing for a Pathfinder fan) and as someone who knows where to find well-done stat block conversions (also probably typical), a reprint for me would ideally contain something new to me other than just some improved art. And let me emphasize that I WANT to buy a compiled reissue, I just want it to be an improvement on the great work Paizo has already done on this AP. And the best thing I can imagine is for the AP to be expanded so that my PCs can experience the full level range of their classes within the story arc.
** spoiler omitted **
All I'm saying is that, as someone who owns all six RotRL adventures (probably a typical thing for a Pathfinder fan) and as someone who knows where to find well-done stat block conversions (also probably typical), a reprint for me would ideally contain something new to me other than just some improved art. And let me emphasize that I WANT to buy a compiled reissue, I just want it to be an improvement on the great work Paizo has already done on this AP. And the best thing I can imagine is for the AP to be expanded so that my PCs can experience the full level range of their classes within the story arc.
Whilst I too would buy just about anything Paizo put out for Pathfinder, I suspect you are highlighting another potential problem. All that extra work which we would like and which Paizo would no doubt not be able to help themselves from doing means something else has to give. Unfortunately, that alternative 'something else' (which would be completely new and fresh to all of us as well as probably being in smaller, more affordable packets) would probably sell better than a compilation of RoTRL - thus introducing a further disincentive via opportunity cost.
Ultimately, I want it to happen but without missing out on any additional Golarion supplements or adventures (a perfectly reasonable, if impossible request, in my mind). I wish Paizo luck in solving dilemmas like this one...
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I think an expansion and refinement of some of the special systems introduced, such as the haunts, and a refinement of the adventures that Paizo thinks should be made - plus possible conversions of existing enemies to new apg classes (thinking of one case where an alchemist would be a fun class replacement!) would be great. Considering the new monsters that are now converted in the Bestiary 2, some space and work would be saved.
Yeah, I know my 20-level dream is asking a lot, but what can I say? I know that if they reissue it, they'll only do it once, so I might as well throw in my two cents now...
I must say, a 600 page reissue doesn't sound that ridiculous to me, though. It's basically the same number of pages as the original AP, with 450 of the pages being pre-existing material. That means 150 pages of new stuff, which is only the equivalent of one and half AP chapters in raw page count. Mix it into the rest of the AP seamlessly and the whole thing will feel like a fresh new buy that no completionist or semi-completionist could refuse. Then you are selling the whole AP for the creative labor of one and a half (let's round up to two, because of the stat block conversion labor) AP chapters. I know there are plenty of other production costs to factor in, but still...Seems like it could turn a reasonable profit even with sales numbers lower than the average AP books, though I personally think it would sell like crazy hotcakes to Pathfinders new and old...
Maybe as two hardcovers, each priced at $49.99, like the core rulebooks? I apologize, as I know I am drifting WAY into the 'telling you how to do your job even though you obviously know how to do it perfectly well' territory, but I just think this is an interesting issue to think about. I love Rise of the Runelords like they were my own children and I only want the best for them...
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Just going through the math, here is what I am thinking:
50 pages of the actual adventure
20 pages of supplmental material
Total = 70
Total basic page count at 420 (70*6)
Each Pathfinder book comes with a number of sections that I do not think would be included in the hardcover:
- 6 pages of the fiction: I would think that this would drop out
- 2 pages of Iconics: This would definitely drop out
- 4 pages of ads: I am sure that there would just be one set of ads, not 6.
- 12 pages of monsters (5 monters in a 2 page format along with the intro pages): I think this would drop out, as most are/would be included in the Bestiary. Maybe a couple would be kept, but I do not think you would reprint monsters that are in the Bestiary. Maybe we would keep the wandering monster charts.
- 2 pages of editor's intro notes: I think we would just have a new intro, and the older ones would be dropped.
I think that there would be some new material/articles/general notes, which I think would put the total page count around 450-500 pages, which I think would be fine.
I suspect that this would come in around $149.99
and I would be ok with that.
fwiw, I just spent a chunk of my morning calling game shops and trolling the Web in search of hard copies of #3-6 of Rise of the Runelords (yes, yes, the PDFs are readily available right here on Paizo.com, but I am set in my ways and cannot run a game off PDFs), and the secondhand prices for the out-of-print installments are insane.
Burnt Offerings is going for $100+ used. Hook Mountain Massacre is listed on Alibris for $275(!!), although there are cheaper used copies floating around elsewhere (where by "cheaper" I mean "about $45-50").
I don't know enough about the market to say whether those prices are driven by collectors or people who, like me, just want to run the game... but if the latter is any significant percentage, then those prices suggest there's definitely some interest in having that AP reprinted. An updated version, with or without cleaned-up and bonus materials, would be even nicer.
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Folks should note that even if we just took all six of the adventures and *none* of the supplemental material (some of which is actually necessary to run the campaign), we'd be talking about 300 pages right there. Without actually going back and checking, I'd estimate that at least half of the supplemental material would need to be included as well, bringing the page count to 450—and that's with no new material.
Remember also that high-level adventures are bigger than low-level—that it, it takes more pages to describe the parts that take you from 16th to 17th than it does to describe the parts that takes you from 6th to 7th—so it wouldn't surprise me if it would require upwards of 600 pages to cover 20 levels.
SOLD! Where do I pay for this 100 dollar monster! I would buy this just because Paizo never does this! That makes it worth every penny right there. Keep talking Vic!
I for one would love a deluxe edition of something like this, especially for Rise of the Runelord. I'd happily shell out $150 for something like this. Especially if it had a nice leather cover with the Sihedron Rune on it. :D
$150 is a tad much.
The $100 range is cool.
I think $120 would be the top limit, as that is what it would have cost to buy the original AP piecemeal. I think pricing it higher than that would turn off everybody except for the "I want it bound in dragon leather with a Sihedron rune in mithral pressed upon the front, so that my ancestors can gaze upon it in wonder" crowd. I think that's a smaller crowd than the "I want to read it, I want to play it, I want it to be a fairly nice hardcover" crowd.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Burnt Offerings is going for $100+ used. Hook Mountain Massacre is listed on Alibris for $275(!!), although there are cheaper used copies floating around elsewhere (where by "cheaper" I mean "about $45-50").
I don't know enough about the market to say whether those prices are driven by collectors or people who, like me, just want to run the game... but if the latter is any significant percentage, then those prices suggest there's definitely some interest in having that AP reprinted.
Those prices are driven by "listing bots" - computer programs that use search information about listed prices and quantities available to calculate a "market price." I.E., they're horsepucky. I've been able to find #1 for as little as $17 on multiple occasions, and have never had problems with the other issues.
Not to say I wouldn't be interested in a "Special Edition" treatment, though.
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fwiw, I just spent a chunk of my morning calling game shops and trolling the Web in search of hard copies of #3-6 of Rise of the Runelords (yes, yes, the PDFs are readily available right here on Paizo.com, but I am set in my ways and cannot run a game off PDFs), and the secondhand prices for the out-of-print installments are insane.
Burnt Offerings is going for $100+ used. Hook Mountain Massacre is listed on Alibris for $275(!!), although there are cheaper used copies floating around elsewhere (where by "cheaper" I mean "about $45-50").
I don't know enough about the market to say whether those prices are driven by collectors or people who, like me, just want to run the game... but if the latter is any significant percentage, then those prices suggest there's definitely some interest in having that AP reprinted. An updated version, with or without cleaned-up and bonus materials, would be even nicer.
I have a spare copy of 6 due to a shipping error. If you like I could send it to you?
FallofCamelot - I was able to put the collection together without too much trouble, so I have them all (or, well, I'll have them all in a week or so when all the orders have shipped), but thank you for the offer all the same. :)
Drogon - good to know, thanks for the explanation. What's your secret for finding cheap copies? (Not that it'll do me much good at the moment, but someone else will probably find it useful, and who knows, I might end up doing this again someday.)
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Drogon - What's your secret for finding cheap copies? (Not that it'll do me much good at the moment, but someone else will probably find it useful, and who knows, I might end up doing this again someday.)
Search bookstore websites by ISBN or UPC instead of description. Also, some bookstores use a different code, entirely (the name of it escapes me). If you go into a store and ask someone in the know, they'll give it to you, and you can search their systems using that number.
Craigslist is also good. There are a ton of people who were getting Dragon and/or Dungeon Magazine subscriptions and ended up getting RotRL to fill it out, but will never use the AP. They often sell the collection on Craigslist (often along with a bunch of other usable stuff like minis).
Last, good old-fashioned used bookstores. They're not computerized, they don't use eBay, and they just buy anything people bring them for pennies on the dollar, then sell it for cover (or less).
I've completed collections for many of my customers doing these things.
As much as I enjoy the Pathfinder AP's, I find it hard to concieve anyone paying $250 for Burnt offerings. Don't get me wrong, great adventure, but when I paid $100 to buy an un opened never used box of the planescape Blood wars, I thought I was being a little extravagent with my budget.
As someone with every AP adventure every published, and a few duplicates as well, I say no reprnt if someone is willing to pay me $1000+ to take AP 1-6 off my hands.
Well, at the very least Paizo should update RotR for the 5th Pathfinder anniversary. Its the first PF ap and it's pretty iconic.
Sandpoint and Varisia deserve it!
Paizo has been great to us, but I wouldnt mind another bone tossed our way with this. I'd preorder/purchase way in advance too.
That subtle enough James? Lisa? Erik? Any other Paizo honcho?
Oh, and a dedication to all the PC's who have run afoul of Ven Vinder by way of his daughter might be in order too. ;)
Just to put my voice out there, I will definately pay $99.99 for an updated and enhanced hardback version of RotRL. Likewise I will pay $99.99 for an updated and enchanced CotCT harback. Look forward to the (hopefully) eventual release of these books.
I wouldn't want to see new adventure material created for a reissue, but I would like to see the "extended director's cut" including original material cut for length, such as the Paradise barge in Turtleback Ferry.
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Creative Director
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I wouldn't want to see new adventure material created for a reissue, but I would like to see the "extended director's cut" including original material cut for length, such as the Paradise barge in Turtleback Ferry.
We already used the Paradise barge. It showed up in Nick's next adventure, Edge of Anarchy.
I wouldn't want to see new adventure material created for a reissue, but I would like to see the "extended director's cut" including original material cut for length, such as the Paradise barge in Turtleback Ferry.We already used the Paradise barge. It showed up in Nick's next adventure, Edge of Anarchy.
Eel's End? That seemed very different to me, but of course I never saw the material as written for ROTRL, and may have imagined the Paradise quite differently than Nick intended. I had it as a mobile floating casino (as opposed to the permanently moored riverboat casinos on the Mississippi) that burned and sank while out on the lake during a casino cruise.
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Creative Director
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Eel's End? That seemed very different to me, but of course I never saw the material as written for ROTRL, and may have imagined the Paradise quite differently than Nick intended. I had it as a mobile floating casino (as opposed to the permanently moored riverboat casinos on the Mississippi) that burned and sank while out on the lake during a casino cruise.I wouldn't want to see new adventure material created for a reissue, but I would like to see the "extended director's cut" including original material cut for length, such as the Paradise barge in Turtleback Ferry.We already used the Paradise barge. It showed up in Nick's next adventure, Edge of Anarchy.
Used the same maps, used a lot of the same NPCs, and had some of the same encounters. Part of why it got cut from "Hook Mountain Massacre," in fact, was that it just didn't feel like a great fit for a rural part of Varisia. When Nick's adventure came in way over the word count, we looked at the parts of the adventure that could get cut without affecting much of the rest of the adventure AND at the parts that just didn't feel right in that adventure. The Paradise Barge fit both categories, so out it went.