Does anyone else find this nation remarkably chilling? They say that Mengkare is uncorrupted by his power, but it seems to me that the very act of effectively requiring his citizens to legaly sign over their free will to him is an act that is inherently non-good (I read him as being LN rather than LG). Personally, I have plans to cast this wyrm as one of the arch-villains in a camppaign.
Does anyone else find this nation remarkably chilling? They say that Mengkare is uncorrupted by his power, but it seems to me that the very act of effectively requiring his citizens to legaly sign over their free will to him is an act that is inherently non-good (I read him as being LN rather than LG). Personally, I have plans to cast this wyrm as one of the arch-villains in a camppaign.
I've also wondered the same thing. A project (among many) I've been working on: a campaign where the PCs are natural-born Hermeans, slowly discovering the awful truth about their leader. It's something I've toyed with for about a year now; maybe it's time I refocus on it . . .
I just don't think that draggie thinks of humans more than prize begonias yet. Maybe once the breeding program is done, in a few hundred thousand years or so his opinion will differ. In his mind, he is uplifting the species to a true species...you know, like true dragons. What could be a more noble pursuit? And as far as I can remember, he doesn't harm those that are inferior, he just doesn't let them breed back into the population. Let's keep those bad genomes outta here! See, its all for the greater good that your brother had to leave the island. bye bye, bro.
greg
Heh, I would let people play a True Hermean, (25 pt buy in a normal 20pt buy campaign), unfortunately they're so sure of their abilities that they learn slower, (Slow XP track in a normal track game)
Ah, but I'm not making an argument that Mengkare is evil, just not good. He regards these creatures as breeding stock, and I just don't think a good-aligned character (even a dragon) would take such an objective view of a sentient race. True, there are good aligned characters that lean towards similarly flawed modes of thought, but Mengkare is nearly defined by them.
Plus let's not forget that the entry implies that he secretly toasts those who wish to leave Hermea.
Heh, I would let people play a True Hermean, (25 pt buy in a normal 20pt buy campaign), unfortunately they're so sure of their abilities that they learn slower, (Slow XP track in a normal track game)
I like that idea, though I would probably just do it as an initial xp penalty. Making it more of an intial hump in the learning curve at the beginning, and by the time they are mid levels it really isn't that big of a hinderance.
greg
Ah, but I'm not making an argument that Mengkare is evil, just not good. He regards these creatures as breeding stock, and I just don't think a good-aligned character (even a dragon) would take such an objective view of a sentient race. True, there are good aligned characters that lean towards similarly flawed modes of thought, but Mengkare is nearly defined by them.
Plus let's not forget that the entry implies that he secretly toasts those who wish to leave Hermea.
I agree. I don't see him as evil, but not good either. Then again, I personally think that gold dragons, with their natural draconic view of things and being so far removed from what the "lesser races" have to deal with, would be more likely to "fall" to neutrality.
That's one of the several problems I had with Classic Dragons. When it talked about awesomely good and incorruptible gold dragons were, I immediately thought of Menkare and how he would have to at least be skirting the neutral line pretty hard about now.
I'll be interested to see Hermea's write up in the new World Guide in a few months.
Plus let's not forget that the entry implies that he secretly toasts those who wish to leave Hermea.
OMG! See, this is the work of pirates and religious zealots. Creating dissension. Those corpses on the shore are planted there by those jealous of the Hermean Project. Either they are enraged that thier cults are not allowed to corrupt the right thinking people of Hermea, or they were found lacking and not graced by an invitation to live among the celebrated chosen. Puh Lease. The ideals of Mengkare are well known. And Promise is the safest, most peaceful place to live in all of Golarion. I suspect it is mostly machinations of the cults of Norgorber. For in a land with honesty, his kind have little power.
Greg
Actually, this is more in line of my thinking. The draggie is doing his best for humanity, but his draconian measure of no religous institutions on the isle has made certain less reputable churches look towards the long term goal of painting this LG dragon as a baddie.
Greg
Creative Director
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Does anyone else find this nation remarkably chilling? They say that Mengkare is uncorrupted by his power, but it seems to me that the very act of effectively requiring his citizens to legaly sign over their free will to him is an act that is inherently non-good (I read him as being LN rather than LG). Personally, I have plans to cast this wyrm as one of the arch-villains in a camppaign.
I can confirm that this particular gold dragon is NOT good aligned.
Does anyone else find this nation remarkably chilling? They say that Mengkare is uncorrupted by his power, but it seems to me that the very act of effectively requiring his citizens to legaly sign over their free will to him is an act that is inherently non-good (I read him as being LN rather than LG). Personally, I have plans to cast this wyrm as one of the arch-villains in a camppaign.I can confirm that this particular gold dragon is NOT good aligned.
Pathfinder wiki has lied to me!
Does anyone else find this nation remarkably chilling? They say that Mengkare is uncorrupted by his power, but it seems to me that the very act of effectively requiring his citizens to legaly sign over their free will to him is an act that is inherently non-good (I read him as being LN rather than LG). Personally, I have plans to cast this wyrm as one of the arch-villains in a camppaign.I can confirm that this particular gold dragon is NOT good aligned.
Ahhh wats he know about it .... oh yeah,
nevermind :(
Greg
Okay... how perfect/great would a Council of Wyrms type of campaign be... set on Hermea? (Pretty great I think).
Oooh... maybe a Hermean AP sometime down the line. (Like, before or after the Irrisen/Land of the Linnorm Kings AP). :) Hint, hint.
Pretty please.
I tried running a 2nd ed Council of Wyrms games for a group that was used to 3rd ed. Didn't go over too well. The blue dragon was constantly overshadowing the rest of the party, the crystal dragon was completely useless, and because of the way experience worked, by the time the former was a juvenile dragon, the former was barely out of the hatchling category, and they had little reason to continue their association.
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Okay... how perfect/great would a Council of Wyrms type of campaign be... set on Hermea? (Pretty great I think).
Oooh... maybe a Hermean AP sometime down the line. (Like, before or after the Irrisen/Land of the Linnorm Kings AP). :) Hint, hint.
Pretty please.
How do you run Council of Wyrms with only one dragon? The whole point of the setting was dragon PCs, and I don't think the island's overlord has any offspring to pair up with kindred.
The Prisoner.
You are No. 6.
The Prisoner.You are No. 6.
I am not a number! I am a man!
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Does anyone else find this nation remarkably chilling? They say that Mengkare is uncorrupted by his power, but it seems to me that the very act of effectively requiring his citizens to legaly sign over their free will to him is an act that is inherently non-good (I read him as being LN rather than LG). Personally, I have plans to cast this wyrm as one of the arch-villains in a camppaign.
I would recommend checking out (if you haven't already) the Pathfinder Chronicles book Dragons Revisited, and check out the stuff about "yellow" dragons. ;-)
Actually it would be really funny if the Dragon was still lawful good but really misguided in some way, like some underling is spiking his cows with lots of Drugs or better yet he is so dotteringly old... Sure mr Dragon, we'll get on that right away ;)
I've always continued the Council of Wyrms tradition of dragon aging in my games, in which they suffer none of the ill effects of old age, only getting smarter and stronger as they grow older. Then, some hundred years or so after attaining the "great wyrm" age category, the weight and effects of the centuries come crashing down upon them in an instant, and they die soon afterward.
How do you run Council of Wyrms with only one dragon? The whole point of the setting was dragon PCs, and I don't think the island's overlord has any offspring to pair up with kindred.Okay... how perfect/great would a Council of Wyrms type of campaign be... set on Hermea? (Pretty great I think).
Oooh... maybe a Hermean AP sometime down the line. (Like, before or after the Irrisen/Land of the Linnorm Kings AP). :) Hint, hint.
Pretty please.
Well Kvantum I did say Council of Wyrms type of campaign.
However, I do see your point.
Still think a Hermean AP would be great fun.
I think this is a lot like Andoran's "NG" alignment (in spite of its own sinister undertones).
"Uncorruptable good" doesn't have to mean "perfect good". Any celestial would have a few choice words for Mengkare, I'm sure, but his contributions to the net wellbeing of thinking creatures are still overwhelming, and the amount of power he has come to wield over those creatures hasn't altered his attitude.
If there is a problem with his plan, the problem is with his reasoning, and with the tremendous pride that keeps him from reconsidering that reasoning. His basic intent, to make humans better and less evil, remains uncorruptable.
It's your game, of course, but if you want my take? Mengkare is supposed to be incredibly Good, yet he is also supposed to be very chilling. He would not be nearly so chilling, and would in fact be just another stock-tyrant, were he not so darned benevolent.
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Actually... Mengkare is NOT supposed to be "incredibly good." He's supposed to be incredibly lawful.
He's lawful neutral, in other words. He's let his little experiment go too far, and he's become too obsessed with its perfection to keep track of being good along the way.
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Actually... Mengkare is NOT supposed to be "incredibly good." He's supposed to be incredibly lawful.
He's lawful neutral, in other words. He's let his little experiment go too far, and he's become too obsessed with its perfection to keep track of being good along the way.
I'd like to point out that this is only one interpretation. Personally, ever since I came up with Hermea, I've always held that Mengkare is indeed lawful good--at least in his own head. Whether or not you agree with his "for the greater good arguments" is up to you, and it's frankly not something he worries overmuch about. He's a dragon with his own country, and though he takes a pretty hard-line and contractual view of righteousness... well, so do a lot of snooty paladins and clerics out there (in Golarion and our own world), and they're still lawful good in their stat block.
Alignment is a weird issue, and not even something all of us in the office agree on. Absolutes are for deities, and we are but humans (or dragons). Decide for yourself!
-James
Is there any truth to the rumour that the island of Hermea was inspired by Hermey the elf and the Island of Misfit Toys?
;-)
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I'd like to point out that this is only one interpretation. Personally, ever since I came up with Hermea, I've always held that Mengkare is indeed lawful good--at least in his own head. Whether or not you agree with his "for the greater good arguments" is up to you, and it's frankly not something he worries overmuch about. He's a dragon with his own country, and though he takes a pretty hard-line and contractual view of righteousness... well, so do a lot of snooty paladins and clerics out there (in Golarion and our own world), and they're still lawful good in their stat block.
Fortunately... we haven't yet had to provide statistics for Mengkare, so we haven't yet had to print his actual alignment, so we haven't yet had to have JAMES WAR II in order to figure out how to justify a lawful good leader of a nation that promotes ethnic cleansing and kidnapping. :-P
AKA: I'm not a fan of using fancy words and long complicated pedantic justifications to "cheat" the alignment system.
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I agree with those who can see that goldie as LG.
I see Hermea as a stern but basically benevolent dictatorship.
Sure, he makes your decisions. But he's a supremely powerful, experienced and wise dragon. Surely he knows better than you. It's all for your best. He protects you from your inferior decisions.
And really, a dragon breeding humans is just like a human breeding dogs. The difference in mental capacity is about the same. We don't call dog breeders evil.
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I'd like to point out that this is only one interpretation. Personally, ever since I came up with Hermea, I've always held that Mengkare is indeed lawful good--at least in his own head. Whether or not you agree with his "for the greater good arguments" is up to you, and it's frankly not something he worries overmuch about. He's a dragon with his own country, and though he takes a pretty hard-line and contractual view of righteousness... well, so do a lot of snooty paladins and clerics out there (in Golarion and our own world), and they're still lawful good in their stat block.Fortunately... we haven't yet had to provide statistics for Mengkare, so we haven't yet had to print his actual alignment, so we haven't yet had to have JAMES WAR II in order to figure out how to justify a lawful good leader of a nation that promotes ethnic cleansing and kidnapping. :-P
AKA: I'm not a fan of using fancy words and long complicated pedantic justifications to "cheat" the alignment system.
A T-Rex vs a Carbuncle? Pfshaw! James War II will be over faster than the Six Day War. I'd pay more to watch James vs Jason--Dragon vs Dinosaur, Rules vs Adventure Paths, what's not to love? I suggest Vital Strike + Spring Attack for the excuse to begin your glorious conquest!
AKA: I'm not a fan of using fancy words and long complicated pedantic justifications to "cheat" the alignment system.
Did you just call me a cheat, sirrah? Oh, it is on.
Enjoy your holiday vacation, and try not think about how your office is sitting cold and defenseless, while I sit just across the hallway. Waiting. Planning.
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AKA: I'm not a fan of using fancy words and long complicated pedantic justifications to "cheat" the alignment system.
Did you just call me a cheat, sirrah? Oh, it is on.
Enjoy your holiday vacation, and try not think about how your office is sitting cold and defenseless, while I sit just across the hallway. Waiting. Planning.
I shall spend my vacation plotting other ways to antagonize you. NEVER FEAR!
Cheater.
Sure, he makes your decisions. But he's a supremely powerful, experienced and wise dragon. Surely he knows better than you. It's all for your best. He protects you from your inferior decisions.And really, a dragon breeding humans is just like a human breeding dogs. The difference in mental capacity is about the same. We don't call dog breeders evil.
Hmm. So he's the closest Lawful Good equivalent of Cthulhu being True Neutral? I could see that. (The latter not exactly being out to get you, you're just so far beneath his notice.)
Heck, he doesn't even get you fixed if you don't meet his breeding standards! You just get voted off the island. Beats scampering around with no gonads and a demeaning plastic cone around your neck.
If by "voted off the island" you mean "devoured"...
Heck, he doesn't even get you fixed if you don't meet his breeding standards! You just get voted off the island.
Now I know how to make those dumb TV shows more interesting!
Please tell me that Ezren isn't celebrating his birthday in the nude...
Actually... Mengkare is NOT supposed to be "incredibly good." He's supposed to be incredibly lawful.
He's lawful neutral, in other words. He's let his little experiment go too far, and he's become too obsessed with its perfection to keep track of being good along the way.
I'd like to point out that this is only one interpretation. Personally, ever since I came up with Hermea, I've always held that Mengkare is indeed lawful good--at least in his own head. Whether or not you agree with his "for the greater good arguments" is up to you, and it's frankly not something he worries overmuch about. He's a dragon with his own country, and though he takes a pretty hard-line and contractual view of righteousness... well, so do a lot of snooty paladins and clerics out there (in Golarion and our own world), and they're still lawful good in their stat block.
Alignment is a weird issue, and not even something all of us in the office agree on. Absolutes are for deities, and we are but humans (or dragons). Decide for yourself!
-James
James (Sutter), I respect you, man, but honestly, I am 100% with James here. I tend to think the "I am whatever alignment I have convinced myself I am" concept is one of the things that actually adds fuel to the fire of people disliking alignment.
I usually accept that sometimes someone being lawful or chaotic is a matter of point of view and why they did what they did, good and evil in d20 fantasy tends to be a lot more clear, and treating other races like cattle (even well treated cattle), kidnapping, and punishing them (perhaps very harshly, and with deadly force) for disagreeing with your view of good isn't really good.
I'm just one guy, but I have to throw my support to James (Jacobs) in this case.
Also, please record the ensuing fight. Perhaps a trial by combat will determine who is in the right!
What I want to know is where I can find a good retelling of the events that occurred during James War I, as well as the causes for it.
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Actually... Mengkare is NOT supposed to be "incredibly good." He's supposed to be incredibly lawful.
He's lawful neutral, in other words. He's let his little experiment go too far, and he's become too obsessed with its perfection to keep track of being good along the way.
I'd like to point out that this is only one interpretation. Personally, ever since I came up with Hermea, I've always held that Mengkare is indeed lawful good--at least in his own head. Whether or not you agree with his "for the greater good arguments" is up to you, and it's frankly not something he worries overmuch about. He's a dragon with his own country, and though he takes a pretty hard-line and contractual view of righteousness... well, so do a lot of snooty paladins and clerics out there (in Golarion and our own world), and they're still lawful good in their stat block.
Alignment is a weird issue, and not even something all of us in the office agree on. Absolutes are for deities, and we are but humans (or dragons). Decide for yourself!
-James
Yay Team Elle Gee!!
... figure out how to justify a lawful good leader of a nation that promotes ethnic cleansing and kidnapping. :-P
Same way you justify a merely lawful neutral leader managing a benevolent communist utopia. Believable morality is complicated. :p
Neither of those things is incorrect (characters can only have one alignment each, no matter how complicated and conflicting their predilections). Personally I don't care which label Mengkare officially has; I just appreciate that such thought-provoking characters and situations exist in the setting. Hermea is really cool. :)
Please tell me that Ezren isn't celebrating his birthday in the nude...
No, of course not. He wears about three pounds of raspberry jelly.
James (Sutter), I respect you, man, but honestly, I am 100% with James here. I tend to think the "I am whatever alignment I have convinced myself I am" concept is one of the things that actually adds fuel to the fire of people disliking alignment.
Well actually, he (James (Sutter)) said that the dragon thinks he is LG. James (Jacobs) said that he is not, actually, LG.
That can work together quite well. While I agree with you that actual alignment is objective (or, rather, subjective but the subject is the GM and, to some extent, the players) without "I am what I think I am", but that doesn't mean that there are people who think they're doing right when they're doing wrong.
That dragon probably doesn't know that his scales aren't as shiny as they should be, or explains it away to himself...
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Ok, if this James War II is going to happen, we're going to need to more easily distinguish between the two.
So.... these are my options, cast your vote.
James Jacobs = Big James
James Sutter = Little James
OR
James Jacobs = JJ
James Sutter = James
Team Jacobs?
OK time to go repeatedly punch myself in the face for suggesting that...
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Oh and I'm with Mr Jacobs here. Treating sentient beings as breeding stock whilst setting yourself up as an all powerful dictator whose word is law does not strike me as the actions of a Lawful Good character.
This sounds a lot like the Island of Doctor Moreau only with dragons and humans. For me it's one of the most creepy nations in Golarion, up there with Irrisen and Ustalav and at least you know that the latter two are supposed to be creepy.
Personally if any of my characters were to get an invitation I'd turn it down in a second. After all who wants to live in a horrible eugenic Stepford Wives nightmare where your children are banished because they don't make the grade?
Definately LN IMHO.