I have a problem with having too many people wanting to play my campaign. My original party started with 6 people, which is a lot for a beginner GM, but I managed. Over the last couple weeks that number has grown to 11 and I'm having trouble working through our campaign and keeping everyone involved.I'm wondering how I could manage this group.
I also have a problem with a specific player who doesn't like to take more than 10 minutes. He is a level 7 Cleric/Holy Vindicator and since our campaign path (Curse of the Crimson Throne; Seven Days to the Grave) is for level 2-7 players, he can walk into a room full of creatures that are not too hard for the party and channel energy twice and kill the room, while the other PCs are just moving into the room.
So any ideas?
I have a problem with having too many people wanting to play my campaign. My original party started with 6 people, which is a lot for a beginner GM, but I managed. Over the last couple weeks that number has grown to 11 and I'm having trouble working through our campaign and keeping everyone involved.I'm wondering how I could manage this group.
This is something that is a challenge for any dm. My group can vary from 4 to around 10 players, and when it is at it's max, it is a real handful. If possible I would try to split this into 2 groups of 5 and 6 (assuming everyone comes regularly) and run separate games. Either that or have a second dm, and work together to run the game (possibly having 2 groups working through the same story but at different tables).
I also have a problem with a specific player who doesn't like to take more than 10 minutes. He is a level 7 Cleric/Holy Vindicator and since our campaign path (Curse of the Crimson Throne; Seven Days to the Grave) is for level 2-7 players, he can walk into a room full of creatures that are not too hard for the party and channel energy twice and kill the room, while the other PCs are just moving into the room.So any ideas?
He doesnt like to take more then 10 minutes for what? I dont quite understand that sentance.
Anyway, you have to remember that CotCT was written for 3.5. The change to channel energy isn't accounted for there, and you will have to make alterations to the encounters to account for it. Esepcially with someone who is particularly good at it.
You may want to direct your question in the forum for the AP. You would probably get more details responses from people who know the AP well there.
So any ideas?
If you can afford to do so timewise, break the group down into their own games. 11 characters is a small army and will require a huge amount of rewriting encoutners to make them close to a challenge, not to mention that in groups that large, some people will simply be over played by the stronger players in a group and never get in a chance to RP or shine in battle.
What you can do is break them into 2 groups, one of 5 and one of 6. Try your best to get friends who like each other into groups together.
Then run each group through their own game.
In a perfect world assuming you have time, break them into two groups of 4 and one of three and run three games. I doubt your three player game will stay at only three for long given how many you have already drawn to table.
As for the level 7 who is owning the game, take him aside prvately and explain to him that perhaps this character is a little over powered given the game level and the other party members and see if he would do another character more in line level wise (IE Lower level) with the rest of the group. Tell him he can bring the cleric back if he wants once the party catches up in level and the game is in a place where he does not totally overshadow everyone else. If he is a mature player who wants everyone to have fun there should not be a huge problem.
Otherwise your only option is to try to run all 11 together and that measn a TON of work rewrinting the AP your running so the encounters are a challenge.
If time is not available them you may have to make the hard choice and tell folks you simply cannot run them all and choose the 4-5 you think are the best players or were the first to join and run just them.
To Gilfalas
Thanks for the feedback and a problem I am having is the lack of Pathfinder books in the group. I literally have the only rulebook and beastiary. Pathfinder books are expensive, so I don't really want to tell everyone that they need to buy their own but its hard to quickly look up spell effects and other environmental things when the book is being passed around to figure out what another player's spell does. This also makes it hard if I split tables cause the other DM would need the books too.
To Gilfalas
Thanks for the feedback and a problem I am having is the lack of Pathfinder books in the group. I literally have the only rulebook and beastiary. Pathfinder books are expensive, so I don't really want to tell everyone that they need to buy their own but its hard to quickly look up spell effects and other environmental things when the book is being passed around to figure out what another player's spell does. This also makes it hard if I split tables cause the other DM would need the books too.
DO any of them own laptops, ipads, netbooks etc? The prd is a great resource for that if you dont have the books to spread around. You can use internet based prds to look things up (it can actually be quicker then with a books with good use of search functions).
Especially when there are so many players multiple sets of the rules have to be available or things will get really really bogged down. Alternatively people can print important sections of the rules (like their class, and feats copied from the prd, or spells they use). In fact printed spell books or your own copy of the book the spells are in is basically a requirement at a few tables I play at.
Thanks to all.
To Gilfalas
Thanks for the feedback and a problem I am having is the lack of Pathfinder books in the group. I literally have the only rulebook and beastiary. Pathfinder books are expensive, so I don't really want to tell everyone that they need to buy their own but its hard to quickly look up spell effects and other environmental things when the book is being passed around to figure out what another player's spell does. This also makes it hard if I split tables cause the other DM would need the books too.
That can be very hard indeed. But you have to remember that just because your running the game does not mean that your the sole person responsible for the game being run. The players have a responsibility to help with the game as much as you do.
While the books are expensive, it is unfair for them to all use your materials, especially since YOU need them to handle simply running the game. If there are 11 other players, surely they can pool their money and buy two copies of the Pathfinder RPG they can share. If they each only kick in 10 bucks over on month that will pay for two actual hardcovers. Do that a once a month over the course of 6 months and they can eventually all get their own books.
Remember, your the GM but your supposed to have fun doing this too. If your players do not get that they need to step up and help as well, then perhaps they are not mature enough to be at the table in the first place? After all this is a game that everyone is supposed to be enjoying and there are 11 times as many of them as there are of you.
Also, as has been pointed out, if any of them have access to the internet then the Pathfinder SRD is a GREAT source for any of them to get the info they need to play including spells, classes, leveling info and everything else.
Good luck to you whatever you decide.
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You might want to pick someone out and ask them to GM half the group. As you've some experience you might be able to identify someone else who could do it.
You won't have any fun running a group of 11 and, to be honest, even with the best GM in the world your players will not have as much fun as they would if you only GM for 5 of them.
So, more fun for you and more fun for them.
And I have to agree with the books comments above, everyone needs to pull their weight.
Perhaps you can convince mr lvl 7 to run the opposite game until there are a few more characters near his level that way you kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
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We run our campaigns with new comers running at lower levels to avoid any one player from disrupting the flow. Our seasoned player's will create an NPC for guest player's to get a feel for the group. To even the play, seasoned player's run on slow or medium while the lower player's run on fast until the catch up or get uninvited. After test playing a charactor for about 3 sessions, they may create their own hero. It keeps the story line flowing.
It is very important that seasoned player's not run in and destoy everyone. We run a strong group of senior player's who will back off to let the lower level or newer player's to contribute.
Our biggest challenge is to nurture the new player's into a campaign as a story and not a day raid.
Get a Co-DM. Tag-team it.
My best friend and I did this with a d20 Modern game and it was a BLAST. Our game was a little heavy on RP with 6-7 people (minus the 2 of us), but we kept the whole group together as much as possible, and then split them up when we had combat-like stuff planned.
We gave them time to meet back up, report findings on the mystery they were solving, and prepare their strategy. Then we'd split them up (or they'd split themselves up) and run our parts.
I don't know how well this would work with pre-written material, but it's easy to get the hang of, and so much fun, because you have a co-conspirator. You can brain storm, and even end up plotting "against" each other. It may even lead to the parties actually splitting and BAM! You have another DM.
11 players? oO
Sometimes my 5 are too much for me...
I would say, split the group, you don't need the books to run a game, there's the Paizo SRD (now including DMG&APG, too), so you have everything available online.
During the play, simply use pen&paper^^ and be prepared (write down the rules you need, the monster stats you need etc).
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For dealing with a larger party, especially if running an OGL d20 adventure path with Pathfinder characters, you really must make the opponents stronger. I'm running Paizo's Shacked City (d20) adventure path now with a group of seven players with PFRPG characters. The first two dungeon sessions were much too easy for them. For starters, you should give all monsters/enemies full HP for their hit dice. That will help with the large party and with the level 7 character. Also see if you can add additional tough reinforcements to the combat encounters. For instance, give each boss a couple of bodyguards and a support healer.
If the level 7 player always rushes in, then add a trap by the door, such as a pit with spikes. A pit trap should give a REF save, but clerics have bad REF modifiers. A pit will sideline the character quickly.
Also, you can give the enemies a character with channeled heals, like a cleric or oracle. That way the enemy healer can cancel out part of the level 7 player's damage.
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+1 on the split into two groups. As for only having one book, there's 12 of you. Besides the pfsrd mentioned above, you could all easily chip in and get another copy or two. Amazon has copies of the core rules for $31. That's less than $3 for each player. Bestiary for $26. Just over $2 each. Even buying them through Paizo means less than $5 for each player.
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tell your players that the first 5 to buy the book get to stay, having one book for a party of 6 let alone 11 is ridiculous! or you could split into 2 groups and have them alternate weeks.
That is not fair to the poor people out there.
I look up all my stuff online, i print out all my spells, the effects of the spells (what staggered means, exc) and feats and stuff.i come well prepared and don't need a rule book.
i use it often to look up rules for the dm, who doesn't want to deal with it at the moment, and i know the book better then most in are group, so can look at up faster, before its an issue... but still i think thats unfair
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I have a problem with having too many people wanting to play my campaign. My original party started with 6 people, which is a lot for a beginner GM, but I managed. Over the last couple weeks that number has grown to 11 and I'm having trouble working through our campaign and keeping everyone involved.I'm wondering how I could manage this group.
I also have a problem with a specific player who doesn't like to take more than 10 minutes. He is a level 7 Cleric/Holy Vindicator and since our campaign path (Curse of the Crimson Throne; Seven Days to the Grave) is for level 2-7 players, he can walk into a room full of creatures that are not too hard for the party and channel energy twice and kill the room, while the other PCs are just moving into the room.
So any ideas?
That many can be difficult for a beginning GM. My group is 10 people and we rotate GM with each AP. Ideally we like to play with 5 but some how we just doubled one week and we have been at 10 ever since. One thing that became apparent very quickly is that combat can take forever. Maybe that is really your Clerics complaint is that he/she is getting board possibly waiting over 10 minutes to take a turn. I know that was the case in my group. We had to make house rules to streamline combat. Things like you have 30 sec to declare your actions for your turn or your turn was lost. We also had to house rule no pets/followers. Which our druid wasn't happy about but understood why. We let him re-roll. And the list goes on. What is important is that you talk to your group about the concerns you and the other members have. Where you don't see a solution maybe one of them has a suggestion that will help solve some woes. We sat down as a group for an hour and a half and hatched out our house rules and things. They weren't perfect and we changed some as we went along but it allowed us to play the game and everyone to have fun though some compromises had to be made.
As far as playing the AP as written that is completely out. With a group that size you have to up the difficulty. I would suggest doubling the foes at each encounter for starters. Do it as a simple fight and see how the group handles it and you can get a feel for if the fight was more complicated if the encounter would have been right or not. The thing you don't want to do it is throw too much at them and have a disaster on your hands. Better to start slow and increase difficulty. Maybe doubling is to much. Most of the players in my group are seasoned so double was a good starting point. Also don't be afraid to change the enemies. If you don't want to change who/what they are then give them a few class levels and let them use some magic items. There are a lot of ways to increase difficulty.
As far as the cleric goes he shouldn't be penalized for using his abilities. What you want to do is try to make is to everyone will get there moment to shine. If he is getting more then his fair share of the spotlight change an encounter. It sounds like he is channeling negative energy. Throw some undead at him. All his bursts will do is heal them. Or spread out some ranged/casters so he can only catch a couple in a burst and when he goes running in they can try to turn him into a pin cushion and have spells target Fort which is his weak save. A couple of combats going incredibly wrong for him and making him have to rely on the party members and work as a group can do wonders for an over zealous player. Or it can go completely wrong if they are drama queens and think they always need to be the star of every situation. In which case maybe he isn't a good fit for your group. Sometimes that happens. That's just life.
tell your players that the first 5 to buy the book get to stay, having one book for a party of 6 let alone 11 is ridiculous! or you could split into 2 groups and have them alternate weeks.That is not fair to the poor people out there.
Who says it has to be fair? This neatly puts people's priorities in line. The Pathfinder RPG book is NOT THAT EXPENSIVE. Someone who won't buy it doesn't see it as a priority. Sure, there ARE people out there with zero discretionary income, but in my experience most folks don't fall into that category - it's more a matter of "That'll cut into my beer/cigs/junk food/anime/music/video game budget, screw that."
Sure, $50 is a chunk of change, especially if you're just sorta curious about the game. I think the folks at his table have got their feet wet and know if they want to play or not...this will weed out the 'interested so long as it costs me nothing' crowd. These are usually the same folks who don't bring the GM munchies, so who needs them anyways? :-D
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Everybody around my table has a copy of the core rulebook. Most have an APG and there are a couple of extra copies of the Bestiary in my player group for those who like to summon things.
The core rulebook is not expensive especially if your players group up, chip in $10 each and send someone to buy it. 1 copy of the core rulebook is not enough, you need as many as you can afford and it's not up to you to provide that.
11 players is way too many. In my experience the best range is 4-5 players with 4 being ideal. Any more than 6 is too many, 11 is ridiculous.
Once in the early days of me running games (cue violins) I ran a game for 12 players. It was chaos and that was in a game that was much simpler than Pathfinder. The fact that you are not quivering wreck in a corner is a serious plus for you! :). After that little experience I vowed that I would never allow more than 6 in my games.
If I had 6 players in my group and Kate Bekinsale and Olivia Wilde turned up at my door looking for a game I would not run a group of 8. (Actually I'd kick 2 of my existing group out the door and welcome the two new gamers. I'm not an idiot.)
If you want my advice here's your options:
1) Split the group and run on two different nights- difficult but not impossible depending on your time pressures.
2) Tell someone else to run a group. They can get books too, it's not that expensive. Then say that you will only run for 5 of the group. Draw lots, cherry pick the players you like most just however you do it be firm- you are not a performing monkey for your players.
3) Sit down with your players and explain your problem. Say that an old, wise (not to mention bald) GM with almost three decades experience of cocking up games has said that this is a bad idea. You are doing something right (otherwise 11 people wouldn't be kicking your door down to play- remember that) you just have to reign things in a little. If you involve your players they may have some ideas of what to do. Plus if it's a joint decision they are more likely to accept it without quibbles.
Ask any experienced GM and they will tell you all about the big mistakes they have made running games. One of the big ones is trying to please everyone all the time. It's great to say yes to players but really you do have to put some boundaries in place and one of the biggest (not to mention toughest) decisions a GM has to face is when to say no.
That applies when running the game (being firm with your rulings, pushing the game along when people are quoting random movies etc.), when setting up the weekly ground rules for the game (no phoning up 5 minutes before the session starts to say you can't make it, no bringing other people along without asking first etc.) and when establishing the basic template of the game (no genning characters away from the table, no more than 6 players).
Learn to be firm and your players will have a better experience.
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I would also try and break the group into two groups. If you can't get someone else to GM. Then i would just ask everyone what days and times they can play on other than when you play. Explain to them why. You should be able to get another day and time to get a second group going. Assuming of course you have the time to run a second game.
I'm not very experienced as a GM, but I agree that breaking the group into two would be a good idea. Perhaps you could run different sessions for either group at different times. Either way, you could run the same campaigns for both groups. It could be pretty interesting to be able to compare how differently they respond to the same or similar scenarios. You could also use your experience with once scenario to make adjustments to it for the other group.
Delegate.
Seriously, when I run, I dump, er..., delegate, every tedious bit of bookkeeping, rules-looking-up, etc. I possibly can. Players that take 'x' chair become the initiative guy, she who lays out the terrain, the non-spellcaster that does Spell-check, the two who alternate running the monsters, etc. I do this with all games (regardless of number of players), freeing me up to make sure that the circus gets on all it's acts by show's end.
I run with a check list of the key plot developments and character hits. Not only do the main points like 'storming the fort' get hit, but 'Jassalyn (sp?) finding that pivitol clue to the third Golden ring' is on my little 'shopping list'. I have time and mental focus to get that in 'cuz I'm not tracking Initiative, flipping through Spells or laying out tunnels.
Last game I ran, the only time I touched the core PF rules was when I passed out my 2 copies 30 minutes before the games started.