Vanish lasts one round per level.
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Targets: creature touched
Duration: 1 round/level (up to 5 rounds)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: yes (harmless)
Description: This spell functions like invisibility, except the effect only lasts for 1 round per caster level (maximum of 5 rounds). Like invisibility, the spell immediately ends if the subject attacks any creature.
If I'm level 1 and I use a standard action to cast Vanish on my turn, when do I reappear?
- a) The end of my turn
b) The beginning of my next turn
c) The end of my next turn
d) Other
Presumably at the beginning of your next turn.
I don't know that the official answer is, but for 1 round effects I have them end at the end of the affected creature's next turn. My advice is to pick one way and then be consistent.
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The spell will end at the beginning of your next turn, just before you start taking your actions for round 2.
The rules on combat rounds on page 178 say:
Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Excellent answer, with page reference! Thank you.
With Vanish, would it be possible to get an attack from invisibility on the round after you cast the spell?
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Q: If I cast a spell with a duration of one round, when does that spell end? (example: If I'm level 1 and I cast Vanish on my turn, when do I reappear?)
A: Immediately before my initiative on my next turn. Too late to benefit from the spell during my next action.
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Targets: creature touched
Duration: 1 round/level (up to 5 rounds)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: yes (harmless)
Description: This spell functions like invisibility, except the effect only lasts for 1 round per caster level (maximum of 5 rounds). Like invisibility, the spell immediately ends if the subject attacks any creature.
You could cast Vanish, and then take a move action. To invisible flee the area, or try to invisible flee past the enemy.
Ahhhhh. The CL1 wand of Vanish loses some of its lustre....
@Olilver McShade
@Happler
Both excellent uses for a single round of invisibility, and both part of what I'm after!
I'm actually making a "Cape of Vanishing" for the TWF rogue in our party. I plan to make it caster level 2, use activated, 2 charges/day. So, it will take a standard action to activate, but unlike command word he doesn't have to give away his position by making noise. If he really likes it, I'll add charges/day later.
1 round duration is enough to:
* Get behind cover and use stealth
* Get out of melee without provoking
* Get into melee through reach without provoking
* Move into a threatening position while invisible
2 round duration is enough to:
* Start combat invisible by activating during the "before we open the door" round.
* Get completely out of a combat by running.
* Turn invisible and move into melee on one round, 5' and full attack from invisibility on the next.
Ahhhhh. The CL1 wand of Vanish loses some of its lustre....
It's a touch spell. I don't know whether you can hold a charge from a wand, but if you can, cast it the round before you intend to use it.
This does cause a problem with a wand of Summon Monster 1.
Full round to summon the monster...
who appears just before your next turn - just in time to have the duration expire and disappear, unable to act.Or have I got something mixed up?
This would apply for all summon spells right? the monsters are around for a number of rounds equal to caster level minus one?
Having the casting and duration occur simultaneously is stupid and there is no reason to believe that is how it works. It's 1 round cast, then 1 round action.
Cartigan, I agree with you, but...
it appears that the RAW does not agree with us. I went thru this in another post (I don't know how to link it here sorry!), but at the time I was wondering about effects/buffs that have a one round duration. Then I discovered the problem with the Summon spells, or with any spell that is a full round to cast.
By RAW as it has be explained to me, the spell duration starts as soon as the casting is finished and runs until the start of the casters next turn... in other words it starts and ends at the same moment.
I figure it is just another way to hose Druids...;)
No.
It's a full round cast time. The casting ends as you begin your initiative. Then the spell lasts for 1 round. They disappear as you start your third round.
By RAW as it has be explained to me, the spell duration starts as soon as the casting is finished and runs until the start of the casters next turn... in other words it starts and ends at the same moment.
I figure it is just another way to hose Druids...;)
That's what I said. I think you are misunderstanding full round casting times. A full round casting finishes at the start of your next turn.
soooo... if the Vanish wand was a full round to cast it would be usable by the wizard in his next round.
Sure, but it isn't a full-round. Unless you can put metamagic on it? Extend maybe? A CL 2 Extended Vanish would be 4 rounds.
What Cartigan said is correct - it works like this:
Round 1: Wizard starts casting Summon Monster at his initiative (say, 10).
Round 2: At 10: Wizard completes casting spell, summoned monster appears.
Summoned monster attacks immediately (per rules).
Wizard gets turn.
Round 3: At 10, monster's been here a round, spell ends, poof.
One comment to original poster - Vanish (like invisibility) ends if you make an attack -- so your rogue's "full attack while invisible" would actually be *first* attack while invisible, at which point he reappears for his iterative and/or off-hand attacks.
So, then it is only possible to get one attack of benifit from a normal invisibility. You only get to count the +2 to hit flat footed once. How about Readied actions? if I Ready to hit the rogue that went invisible when he re-appears do I get my attack first and my Dex during his first attack? seeing as he is visible when he attacks (after my Readied attack on him).
Readied action occur before the action that is triggered by the criteria you set out. You do not witness the rogue attacking, hence being flat-footed. Therefor you cannot ready an action in response to it.
So, then it is only possible to get one attack of benifit from a normal invisibility. You only get to count the +2 to hit flat footed once. How about Readied actions? if I Ready to hit the rogue that went invisible when he re-appears do I get my attack first and my Dex during his first attack? seeing as he is visible when he attacks (after my Readied attack on him).Readied action occur before the action that is triggered by the criteria you set out. You do not witness the rogue attacking, hence being flat-footed. Therefor you cannot ready an action in response to it.
While you can not ready an action against something you can't see you are not flat-footed against him. Flat-footed is a condition, just like being stunned is. The distinction does not really matter in this case since the readied action can't be taken, but the clarification between loss of dex and flat-footed should b kept clear.
can I ready an action to attack the rogue after he appears? if so when will this take place?
a) rogue appears
b) rogue 1st attack
c) target readied attack
d) rogue 2nd attackwould actions be a-b-c-d or a-c-b-d or a-b-d-c?
You could just hold your action. That way you get your entire turn. If your ready an action for a specific event you are held to whatever you specified. By just holding you action in this case you can attack the rogue, or take another action if something happens that you might want to respond to.
PS:Yes you could ready an action to attack after he appears.
wait - I ready actions vs. things I can't see all the time. "I ready to attack any monster appearing from the darkness" - "I ready to attack the demon when it teleports back", etc.
are you saying I can't do these?
What we are saying is you can't ready against the action that you can't see. Once the monster appears from the darkness it is not an issue. If the monster were to be in darkness you could not ready against it doing activity X while it was still covered in darkness because you have no way to know activity X is taking place.
so my question still remains,
would actions be a-b-c-d or a-c-b-d or a-b-d-c?
a) rogue appears
b) rogue 1st attack
c) target readied attack
d) rogue 2nd attackor maybe ... b-a-c-d? does the roges 1st attack take place before he is visible?
I'm trying to understand the order of actions to see why the first attack gets the benny of Invis, but the second doesn't.
The rogue becomes visible as soon as his first attack is made (regardless of whether it hits). Therefore (unless the opponent would be flat-footed anyway), the opponent is no-longer flat-footed against the rogue, after the first attack. b-a-(c?)-d. Not too sure on the ready rules, we don't use them often.
so my question still remains,
would actions be a-b-c-d or a-c-b-d or a-b-d-c?
a) rogue appears
b) rogue 1st attack
c) target readied attack
d) rogue 2nd attackor maybe ... b-a-c-d? does the roges 1st attack take place before he is visible?
I'm trying to understand the order of actions to see why the first attack gets the benny of Invis, but the second doesn't.
It is b a c d.
soooo... if the Vanish wand was a full round to cast it would be usable by the wizard in his next round.Sure, but it isn't a full-round. Unless you can put metamagic on it? Extend maybe? A CL 2 Extended Vanish would be 4 rounds.
An extended Vanish is a lvl 2 spell so you need CL3 to create this wand.
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So here's another question that this brings up...
If a first level character casts vanish on two consecutive rounds, does she remain invisible seamlessly or does she reappear in the second round while she's casting vanish again?
So here's another question that this brings up...
If a first level character casts vanish on two consecutive rounds, does she remain invisible seamlessly or does she reappear in the second round while she's casting vanish again?
The spell expires at the start of her turn, technically immediately before her action -- which means she reappears before she has a chance to cast it again.
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This becomes even worse for spells like the Alchemist Extract, Bomber's Eye.. which grants a 1 round / CL bonus to throwing bombs. At 1st level by the time you actually get to use the spell it is over.
Also with 'Daze' the caster can never act while the target is 'dazed'... I suppose they can take a move action... but never a standard.
Basically all durations are shortened by one standard action of the caster.
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This does seem to be a particular problem for Alchemists. Is there a clever way for them to use an extract and throw a bomb in the same round?
It seems pretty complicated...
for the extract...
An Alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action.
for the bomb...
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
You do have a 'move action' left in the round you throw the bomb.. so theoretically.. since drinking a potion is a move action.. if you 'draw' on the round before... you could drink extract... draw, create, and throw bomb... assuming you do all that after you drop the extract bottle.
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I'm not sure I see a reason for the caster to lose their round of effect.
The following is a partial list of spells that are 'useless' or diminished at level 1:
(even though you can potentially take them as one of your few known spells and depending on the character/class type this can be very dramatic)
Sun Metal.
Adjuring Step.
Targeted Bomb Admixture.
Bomber's Eye.
Jury-Rig.
Borrow Skill. (unless the skill can be performed as a move action)
Limited usefulness to the caster:
Vanish - caster gets an invisible 'move action' but no standard.
Touch of Gracelessness - caster does not get an attack on the graceless target.
Glitterdust - caster does not get to make an attack against revealed targets.
Daze & Color Spray on targets over 5HD - Caster gets no benefit other other than a safe move action and delaying the combat for a round and wasting a spell. (assuming he doesn't have friends to smack the target)
Forced Quiet - kinda tricky with only 1 round... target readies an action to scream as soon as the spell lifts.. bard can move up to them but cannot strike until the same moment as the target gets to scream... ok the bard probably isn't taking him out anyway... questionable uselessness.
Divine Favor & Wrath - work for 9 rounds not 10.
Stalwart Resolve - useless on the caster except as it applies to move actions.
Tactical Acumen - only partially useful for the caster.
Ghostbane Dirge - useless for the caster.
These are OK because of 'special rules':
Feather Fall - works because the casting time is 'immediate'.
Animate Rope - only works if the rope action is assumed to be part of the casting.
True Strike - only works because it has special rules allowing it to function until the END of the caster's next action.
Command - is ok because the 'round' actually begins on the target's turn rather than the caster's.
Seems like what this boils down to is that personal offense buff spells tend to break under the rules unless there are specifics for handling the casting round built into them.
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That would be these then (assuming caster level 1):
Sun Metal.
Adjuring Step.
Targeted Bomb Admixture.
Bomber's Eye.
Jury-Rig.
Borrow Skill. (unless the skill can be performed as a move action)
As far as I'm concerned... as long as there is a way for the caster to make full use of their spell, (even if they have to jump through a couple hoops to make it happen... like casting the round before and 'holding it' until the start of their next turn to get full use) then that's good.
I generally think it is better for most of these spells if they become active immediately following the caster's turn or at the start of their next turn... but in some cases move actions screw it up.
Is it absurd to cast 'Sun Metal' but never actually get to swing a flaming sword? Yeah.. it is. There's no reason for this 1st level spell to be any more useless at 1st level than any other 1st level spell... and it isn't right for that same spell to only really have 4 rounds of duration at level 5 instead of 5 actual rounds.
I guess what I'm saying is that these spells need special rules like some of the others I listed above.
Wouldn't it be easy enough to say someone could voluntarily take longer to cast, thus making it a full round action, but of course risking being interrupted in the casting until the beginning of the next turn - but in return benefitting of the effect as though it was cast on his next turn, except he also gets to act?
I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?
Protip: read the last post date before commenting in a thread.
AKA don't necro threads for no good reason.
Also, if the rules don't say you can arbitrarily increase casting time, then you can't arbitrarily increase casting time. If it takes a standard action, it takes a standard action.