Selective Channeling based on CHA?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Can anyone explain to me why Selective Channeling is based on CHA? That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. What, only pretty and/or friendly clerics can do it? If your cleric happens to be ugly they can't do this? To be good at it they have to be beautiful? Huh???


Channel Energy's uses per day and its DC for half damage use CHA, why wouldn't the feat use CHA also?

Silver Crusade

CapedCrusader wrote:
Can anyone explain to me why Selective Channeling is based on CHA? That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. What, only pretty and/or friendly clerics can do it? If your cleric happens to be ugly they can't do this? To be good at it they have to be beautiful? Huh???

Charisma isn't how pretty or how friendly your character is. It's an amalgam and net product of a number of factors, but the thing I believe the channelling rules are going for is using it as a gauge for your strength of personality and ability to exert your will over what is essentially a divine firehose, which dictates how adept you are at aiming it at or away from those around you.


CHA also at least partly deals with your 'force of personality'. Sic, Mick Jagger. Ugly as a toad. Crass, Arrogant. And overwhelmingly charismatic. Captain Kirk. Seriously. A middle aged lardball that pulls that kind of @$$? How about Stalin: I will of Iron (hence, renaming himself to "Steel") and a driver by cult of personality of what became one of the most widespread and powerful empires the Earth has ever seen. He's an unfriendly toad, too.

CHA is *not* Pretty, nor Friendly, nor Personality. It is all of that and much much more.

Think about Sorcs: Good casters 'cause they're pretty? How much sense does that make? It's about drive and focus, and sometimes just luck.

Look at the Use Magic Device skill: Why is that not INT based; you meticulously run through all the possible activation paremeters and eventually you *voila* make it work.

CHA is already a dud stat, let it do *something* in game :D

GNOME

Silver Crusade

On Use Magic Device being tied to CHA: I can't help but be reminded of how The Fonz made jukeboxes work.


Heck yeah! lol

The Fonz is definitely cooler than the other side of the pillow :)

GNOME


Charisma is not drive and focus. That's Wisdom. That's why Wisdom, not Charisma, adds to the Will save.

Charisma measures (and this is a quote from the rule book), "a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance".


Because charisma (with very few exceptions) is a dump stat. They had to tie something to it other than Sorcerer magic.


wesF wrote:
Because charisma (with very few exceptions) is a dump stat. They had to tie something to it other than Sorcerer magic.

You'd think that "a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance" would offer plenty of opportunities for bad-assery without having to attach a bunch of unrelated stuff.

As for Sorcerery bloodlines, that was a stupid idea from day one (way back in 3.0). Sorcerery should be based on personality, personal magnetism, leadership, and appearance rather than genetics.


LilithsThrall wrote:

You'd think that "a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance" would offer plenty of opportunities for bad-assery without having to attach a bunch of unrelated stuff.

But it doesn't.

Sure, you can run a game that places a lot more mechanical weight on Charisma than is actually written in for it. It's probably even a good idea.

In 99% of the games out there, though? It doesn't.

LilithsThrall wrote:


As for Sorcerery bloodlines, that was a stupid idea from day one (way back in 3.0). Sorcerery should be based on personality, personal magnetism, leadership, and appearance rather than genetics.

Your opinion on this issue is well known; it's just that no one else posting here seems to share it.

Scarab Sages

LilithsThrall wrote:
You'd think that "a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance" would offer plenty of opportunities for bad-assery without having to attach a bunch of unrelated stuff.
Dire Mongoose wrote:

But it doesn't.

Sure, you can run a game that places a lot more mechanical weight on Charisma than is actually written in for it. It's probably even a good idea.

In 99% of the games out there, though? It doesn't.

Even in those games that involve a lot of social interaction, Cha is still a dump stat for NPCs, since players are allowed to grant their PCs immunity to any skills based on it.

"I want to check Sense Motive."
"You believe the Vizier is telling the truth"
"Yeah, right. I'm going to follow him round some more till I find what he's really up to."
"I told you, your PC believes him."
"I decide who my PC believes, if you don't mind."
"You've made ten Sense Motive checks, now, against him. You think he genuinely believes Baron Badass is behind the kidnapping."
"That's just what he wants us to think!"
"What?"
"I've got his number. When I get him alone, I'll beat the truth out of him..."
"<groan>"


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Sure, you can run a game that places a lot more mechanical weight on Charisma than is actually written in for it. It's probably even a good idea.

I realize it doesn't. I'm just saying that charisma offers plenty of unrealized opportunity to be used in combat if the game designers were to make it that way. To give them credit, they tried (for example, in Intimidate), they just didn't give it much of an impact and it doesn't scale all that well.

Dire Mongoose wrote:


Your opinion on this issue is well known; it's just that no one else posting here seems to share it.

That's a fair point. Some people want the Sorcerer to gain his magic from charisma in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with charisma. It's not much use pointing out how absolutely inconsistent that is to gamers who aren't concerned about inconsistencies in the rules.


Snorter wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
You'd think that "a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance" would offer plenty of opportunities for bad-assery without having to attach a bunch of unrelated stuff.
Dire Mongoose wrote:

But it doesn't.

Sure, you can run a game that places a lot more mechanical weight on Charisma than is actually written in for it. It's probably even a good idea.

In 99% of the games out there, though? It doesn't.

Even in those games that involve a lot of social interaction, Cha is still a dump stat for NPCs, since players are allowed to grant their PCs immunity to any skills based on it.

"I want to check Sense Motive."
"You believe the Vizier is telling the truth"
"Yeah, right. I'm going to follow him round some more till I find what he's really up to."
"I told you, your PC believes him."
"I decide who my PC believes, if you don't mind."
"You've made ten Sense Motive checks, now, against him. You think he genuinely believes Baron Badass is behind the kidnapping."
"That's just what he wants us to think!"
"What?"
"I've got his number. When I get him alone, I'll beat the truth out of him..."
"<groan>"

I don't really see this as a problem. Just make the Vizier be innocent and be set up by someone else.

Shadow Lodge

LilithsThrall wrote:
As for Sorcerery bloodlines, that was a stupid idea from day one (way back in 3.0). Sorcerery should be based on personality, personal magnetism, leadership, and appearance rather than genetics.

That's the 3.5 Sorcerer though, IMO. Only the fluff of that class said anything about a bloodline.

Sovereign Court

Back to the OP- Turn Undead was based off charisma which is what channel energy replaces.

Liberty's Edge

How quaint! Actually talking about the topic of the post! +1

You beat me to the Turn Undead explanation by exactly two minutes, AK.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
As for Sorcerery bloodlines, that was a stupid idea from day one (way back in 3.0). Sorcerery should be based on personality, personal magnetism, leadership, and appearance rather than genetics.
That's the 3.5 Sorcerer though, IMO. Only the fluff of that class said anything about a bloodline.

Aberant, "There is taint in your blood that is alien and bizarre".

Abyssal, "Generations ago, a demon spread it's filth into your heritage."

Arcane, "Your family has always been skilled in the eldritch art of magic."

Celestial, "Your bloodline is blessed by a celestial power"

Destined, "Your family is destined for greatness in some way."

Draconic, "At some point in your family's history, a dragon interbred with your bloodline"

Elemental, "This influence comes from an elemental outsider in your family history or a time when your relatives were exposed to a powerful elemental force."

Fey, "The capricious nature of the fey runs in your family due to some intermingling of fey blood or magic."

The list goes on. So, no, this stupidity is not just in the 3.5 Sorcerer. Now, I ask you, does "genetics" occur anywhere in the description of charisma (i.e. "a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance")? Contrast this to a Wizard - who gains his abilities through the study of scrolls, books, etc. Connecting the Wizard's power to intelligence is logically consistent.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh noes, you guys got LT started on Charisma and Sorcerers. There will be grown men crying.

Sovereign Court

LilithsThrall wrote:
Now, I ask you, does "genetics" occur anywhere in the description of charisma (i.e. "a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance")?

You don't think genetics impacts personality or appearance?.

Interesting...


Wisdom is mental Constitution: your mental ability to resist change and maintain your will. High wisdom can express itself mundanely through willpower and magically through faith.
Charisma is mental Strength: your mental ability to impose your will on others and on the outside world. High charisma can express itself mundanely through leadership and magically through sorcery.
Intelligence is mental Dexterity: your mental ability to respond and adapt to new ideas and mental obstacles. High intelligence can express itself mundanely through learning and magically through wizardry.

Shadow Lodge

LilithsThrall wrote:
The list goes on. So, no, this stupidity is not just in the 3.5 Sorcerer. Now, I ask you, does "genetics" occur anywhere in the description of charisma (i.e. "a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance")?

Spoliered to Avoid more Threadjacking:
You said a Sorcerer's magic should have nothing to do with genetics. That is exactly what the 3.5 Sorcerer was all about. None of it's class features(spellcasting and the familiar) were in anyway related to actual genetics.

Now I ask, does genetics have to the reason you have a "bloodline"?

My Answer: No.:
LilithsThrall wrote:

Aberant, "There is taint in your blood that is alien and bizarre".

Abyssal, "Generations ago, a demon spread it's filth into your heritage."

Arcane, "Your family has always been skilled in the eldritch art of magic."

Celestial, "Your bloodline is blessed by a celestial power"

Destined, "Your family is destined for greatness in some way."

Draconic, "At some point in your family's history, a dragon interbred with your bloodline"

Elemental, "This influence comes from an elemental outsider in your family history or a time when your relatives were exposed to a powerful elemental force."

Fey, "The capricious nature of the fey runs in your family due to some intermingling of fey blood or magic."

Dragonborn3 in another thread wrote:

Let's look at the first two bloodlins, Aberrant and Abyssal, as examples.

Aberrant says you have some sort of "taint" in your blood, not that Grandma had a questionable relationship with a creature of the Abberation type in her younger years. Maybe you survived an encounter with a Mind Flayer, despite the fact it almost got your brain. Or, if you're in a core PF game, Aboliths have Mucus Cloud and Slime(eww).

Abbysal says a demon spread it's "filth" in your family tree a few branches ago. Looking at Demons, I can see few ways the "filth" got in, and none(except for one) involve a bedroom. Babua: Protective Slime, Balor: Death Throes, (possibly)Dretch: Stinking Cloud spell-like ability, Glabrezu: Someone made a badly worded wish..., (possibly) Hesrou: Nausea, Nabusa: It gaze attack, Nalfeshnee: Unholy Nimbus, Quasit: Daddy had a Familiar, Shadow Demon: Magic Jar(even for a little bit), Succubus: This one probably involved some bed rest, Vrock: Breathing in those Spores can't be good.

Draconic says you have a Dragon as an ancestor(doesn't mean you've got a blood-tie though, you may have been adopted), Arcane says you come from a family of wizards(but that doesn't mean your sorcery is genetic. You may have grown up in a family that wasn't quite right, like the Harpells), Celestial has a "blessing" on your bloodline, Elemental can be anything(from living through a fire or a tornado/storm to swimming in a lagoon that connects to the Elemental Plane of Water to being a Dwarf), Fey could mean you were raised by/are a gnome or you saved a Dryad's tree from being cut down, and Undead says you could have been born dead(no genetics needed).

The way a Sorcerer got his power is pretty versatile in my opinion.


AvalonXQ wrote:

Wisdom is mental Constitution: your mental ability to resist change and maintain your will. High wisdom can express itself mundanely through willpower and magically through faith.

Charisma is mental Strength: your mental ability to impose your will on others and on the outside world. High charisma can express itself mundanely through leadership and magically through sorcery.
Intelligence is mental Desterity: your mental ability to respond and adapt to new ideas and mental obstacles. High intelligence can express itself mundanely through learning and magically through wizardry.

+1


Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Now, I ask you, does "genetics" occur anywhere in the description of charisma (i.e. "a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance")?

You don't think genetics impacts personality or appearance?.

Interesting...

By your logic, it makes just as much sense to base Sorcerery on strength.

And since I don't want to further threadjack, I'll drop the discussion.

Shadow Lodge

I am not sure I agree with that. I Can see Wis covering mental Con and Str before Cha (despite) what the 3E developers say. Also disagree that Cha is a dump stat between Bards, Clerics, Paladins, and Sorecerers having so much based on it, not to mention the number of spell-like, racial or other abilities, social skills, and UMD. I also tend to agree with LT, Cha isn't ideal but more convenient.


Let us not forget the most charismatic little ba$tard on the planet, Hitler.
Ugly, unfriendly, but a leader, a great con man; in game terms, Cha was the only stat that wasnt a dump.


AvalonXQ - Thank you! I've never thought of those stats that way, and it makes a lot of sense.

That being said, I don't see why Selective Channeling is based on CHA rather than WIS. This isn't a game system where you have much ability to increase stats (once every 4 levels), so you're basically stuck with what you started the game with. My groups generally use the point buy system for stats. With the 13 CHA requirement just to pick up Selective Channeling initially, and using the CHA modifier as your limit for exclusion, in order to be any good at this you have to have a fairly high CHA. With all of the other stat needs for a Cleric, the need to have a high CHA to be able to effectively use what should be a rather basic function of one of the Clerics main abilities seems out of line. I don't have a problem with Selective Channeling requiring a Feat, I just find I disagree with how it's set up.

Shadow Lodge

In the sense that Selective Channel usse Cha or that Channel Energy itself is so Cha based? Sounds like Selective Channeling, but that really doesn't make sense when you realize that Channel Energy already uses Cha for times per day and DCs.

Dark Archive

AvalonXQ wrote:

Wisdom is mental Constitution: your mental ability to resist change and maintain your will. High wisdom can express itself mundanely through willpower and magically through faith.

Charisma is mental Strength: your mental ability to impose your will on others and on the outside world. High charisma can express itself mundanely through leadership and magically through sorcery.
Intelligence is mental Dexterity: your mental ability to respond and adapt to new ideas and mental obstacles. High intelligence can express itself mundanely through learning and magically through wizardry.

Nice!

==
AKA 8one6

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