Couple Questions:
Should a Magus go into Eldritch Knight as soon as possible? At 7th level you snag 3rd level spells as well as the ability to cast in Medium armor (Mithril Full Plate?). From there, does it really hurt to skip out on the class for better BAB, and, ultimately, the ability to cast spells on a crit? I mean....we're talkin about Spell Combat for a full attack (with all 4 attacks if you go EK!), plus a spell, plus an auto quicken on a crit (and you'll be using a Keen Rapier or Scimitar anyways).
Magus 7/Eldritch Knight 10/Magus +3
Seems to be a better overall build than just staying Magus. Am I wrong on this?
Another one to chew on:
Magus 5/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Magus +1
Note: Through Pool Spell the Magus can spontaneously cast 1st level spells. I think this meets the pre-req of DD.
You lose out on Medium armor, but get the cool benefits of DD and eventually EK. I still think an overall Magus 10/EK 10 build is better, but this one is interesting as well.
Lastly:
Magus 10/Duelist 10
Just because it would be a crazy cool fun thing to play. One on one in melee you'd be hilarious. Jack Dex and Int (mostly Int), use Arcane Accuracy and Combat Expertise/Fighting Defensively. Not the most game breaking character powerwise, but pretty cool.
Ps: I stopped trying to Max the AC of Magus 10/Duelist 10 when I got to 75. Just sayin. Could be fun.
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Magus 7/Eldritch Knight 10/Magus +3
Seems to be a better overall build than just staying Magus. Am I wrong on this?
I don't know. You miss out on a lot of stuff. Improved Spell Combat, a number of Arcana (including good ones like Maximize and Hasted Assault), and Improved Pool Spell to name a few.
Magus 5/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Magus +1
Note: Through Pool Spell the Magus can spontaneously cast 1st level spells. I think this meets the pre-req of DD.
You lose out on Medium armor, but get the cool benefits of DD and eventually EK. I still think an overall Magus 10/EK 10 build is better, but this one is interesting as well.
This is a reach. Possibly a reach that actually works, though. If this isn't intended, I think the Paizo team should make clear that Pool Spell does not count as spontaneous casting.
Magus 10/Duelist 10
Just because it would be a crazy cool fun thing to play. One on one in melee you'd be hilarious. Jack Dex and Int (mostly Int), use Arcane Accuracy and Combat Expertise/Fighting Defensively. Not the most game breaking character powerwise, but pretty cool.
Ps: I stopped trying to Max the AC of Magus 10/Duelist 10 when I got to 75. Just sayin. Could be fun.
OK, I need to know how you got to 75. Is that just at level 20?
As for the Eldritch Knight build: Those arcanas aren't that great. Boosts of Speed can get you haste, as can casting Haste as the first part of spell combat (and your whole team will thank you as well), or even your party's bard or wizard casting haste will make that ability redundant.
I hate 1/day abilities. They drive me crazy. Sure they are nice, but I'd rather get to rip off two spells and a full attack at high levels than apply a few metamagics once per day on the fly (to my spells that only go up to 6th!!!)
Improved Spell Combat, by the time you get it, isn't really that needed. At some point concentration becomes easy. I would invest in Combat Casting as a feat early on in any Magus build anyways. I would probably even take the Focused Mind feat too.
Improved Spell Pool is nice, but full iterative attacks, Spell Critical, and a feat are nicer in my mind.
The basic issue is that Spell Critical is amazing for a Magus in conjunction with Spell Combat, whereas the capstones for the Magus suck. I'd rather get more attacks and cast 2 spells per round than any of that high level Magus stuff.
DD build: Just doing it cause I can as per the wording. Mostly proving the point of just doing it. It's not optimal :p
Duelist Build: At 20th, yes. Assuming 30 Int through stat bumps, boost item, and manual. Also assuming Dex bonus of +8. Running total in parentheses.
Base = 10
+5 Celestial Chainmail (+8 max Dex bonus) = 19 (29)
Canny Defense = 10 (39)
Combat Expertise = 5 (44)
Fighting Defensively = 5 because of Duelist ability (49)
Ring of Protection = 5 (54)
Amulet of natural armor = 5 (59)
Dodge = 1 (60)
+5 Defending Armor Spikes = 5 (65)
Spell Shield Magus Arcana when needed = 10 (75)
Small Size = 1 (76)
Just one-upped myself by tacking on small size! Now, obviously this is ridiculous, though, I should note that all of the penalties from Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively are recouped +1 by Arcane Accuracy as a swift action. While you wouldn't have Spell Shield always up, you may have the shield spell up instead, which only drops us to 70.
Also, defending armor spikes are the stinkiest cheese around, but I went there cause this was just a thought experiment.
DD definitely doesn´t work. Magus isn´t a Spontaneous Caster. Spontaneous Casters spontaneously use spell slots choosing from spells known. Pool Spell isn´t using Spell Slots, so it´s not fundamentally different than Wizards with Arcane Item Bond except that it`s usable more times/day and can also do other things.
The whole point of the Spontaneous Casting requirement is that DD progresses your CL in that spellcasting class. Are you expecting DD to progress your (Spontaneous) Pool Points but not your (Prepared) Magus Spell Slots? (meaning you couldn´t cast higher level spells)?
I`m not getting how ditching Magus Abilities and Arcana for progressing Magus spells with Full BAB and HD is a good deal. Spell Blending anybody? Greater Pool Spell? Why do you think the Eldritch Knight CAPSTONE is so amazing anyways? Isn´t that essentially what the Critical Strike Arcana does?
DD definitely doesn´t work. Magus isn´t a Spontaneous Caster. Spontaneous Casters spontaneously use spell slots choosing from spells known. Pool Spell isn´t using Spell Slots, so it´s not fundamentally different than Wizards with Arcane Item Bond except that it`s usable more times/day and can also do other things.
I`m not getting how ditching Magus Abilities and Arcana for progressing Magus spells with Full BAB and HD is a good deal. Spell Blending anybody? Greater Pool Spell? Why do you think the Eldritch Knight CAPSTONE is so amazing anyways? Isn´t that essentially what the Critical Strike Arcana does? Except you don´t have to wait for some Capstone?
DD requires the ability to spontaneously cast 1st level spells. Magi can do that through their pool. I'm just playing with the fuzzy wording, but according to the definition of the words, it works.
Greater Spell Pool will DESTROY your amount of Pool points for the day. It's not as good as it sounds. You basically spend half the level of the spell, plus, if it's a wizard spell, you add on again the spell level. That's 6 pool points for a 4th level wizard spell. I'm not sure though because the ability is so vaguely written. Either way, you're going to have less than 20 pool points for a day. This will be prohibitively expensive except for emergencies.
The extra BAB is great, since you're already taking penalties. The HD is moot since you won't ear your favored class bonus like you would by sticking in Magus.
It's all about Spell Critical. If you think the arcana is the same thing, you've missed something HUGE. EK can use that every round. Yeah, with a keen rapier, haste, and full iterative attacks, he's gonna get that almost every round if he wants it. Combined with spell combat this TRASHES action economy in a great way for the player. Those first couple rounds of combat are going to be silly if you can cast twice and full attack.
The arcana is one per day. Boooooo.
Well... As I see it you give up alot:
Greater Spell Pool destroys your points (if you use it for Wizard spells).
ElK`s Spell Pool is just going to look like after the Magus´s Pool is destroyed.
Extra BAB of +1/4 over 10 levels is going to be about +2.
Compared to... In just 8 levels the Magus gains another +2 via Arcane Weapon.
And at 8th level (Magus) Spell Combat penalties drop by 2.
13th level nets Heavy Armor casting and proficiency. 14th level Spell Combat penalties drop by another (to 0)
16th level nets Counterstrike meaning any Defensively Cast spell will provoke.
And about 4 Arcana.
anyways... l8a
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DD definitely doesn´t work. Magus isn´t a Spontaneous Caster. Spontaneous Casters spontaneously use spell slots choosing from spells known.
The whole point of the Spontaneous Casting requirement is that DD progresses your CL in that spellcasting class. Are you expecting DD to progress your (Spontaneous) Pool Points but not your (Prepared) Magus Spell Slots? (meaning you couldn´t cast higher level spells)?
Unfortunately, or fortunately for those that want this, I think it works. Check it:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
The Magus can do this. It can cast without preparation.
At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
It seems to use the standard language. The Magus would gain new levels of casting.
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The Magus can do this. It can cast without preparation.Unfortunately, or fortunately for those that want this, I think it works. Check it:
[quote-DD Requirements]Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
That would imply a Wizard with Arcane Bond would also qualify, which I don't think is the intent.
Any confirmation on this?
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Unfortunately, or fortunately for those that want this, I think it works. Check it:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.The Magus can do this. It can cast without preparation.That would imply a Wizard with Arcane Bond would also qualify, which I don't think is the intent.
Any confirmation on this?
I've never seen it it come up before. But, yes, I see that a Wizard does also qualify if we use this somewhat loose definition written in the DD prereqs.
Well... As I see it you give up alot:
Greater Spell Pool destroys your points (if you use it for Wizard spells).
ElK`s Spell Pool is just going to look like after the Magus´s Pool is destroyed.Extra BAB of +1/4 over 10 levels is going to be about +2.
Compared to... In just 8 levels the Magus gains another +2 via Arcane Weapon.
And at 8th level (Magus) Spell Combat penalties drop by 2.
13th level nets Heavy Armor casting and proficiency. 14th level Spell Combat penalties drop by another (to 0)
16th level nets Counterstrike meaning any Defensively Cast spell will provoke.
And about 4 Arcana.anyways... l8a
An EK's spell pool will be down 5 pool points compared to a fully leveled Magus. It's not as big of a deal as it looks like. The best way to get spell pool points is through your Int modifier anyways. Besides, you're waiting all the way till 19th to get Greater Spell Pool. I'd rather get Spell Critical at that level.
Extra BAB is way more valuable than enhancing your weapon via Magus abilities, especially at higher levels when you will use GMW and reach the +10 cap rather quickly. Extra BAB gets you another attack, brings up your CMB and CMD, as well as automatically providing the bonus rather than spending an action to do it. It's a much bigger deal than you're making it for a melee character. (Also opens up Critical Feats that are otherwise never available to a Magus)
Also, you are wrong about Magus penalties dropping. They never get a reduction to the -2 to all attacks from Spell Combat, they just get enhancers to their concentration check, which at higher levels is an auto make anyways (which is one of the reasons their capstone is so bad).
Counterstrike sounds cool, but actually sucks. It goes off after the spell, you don't interrupt it. If you are getting a melee attack after someone just dropped a spell, you're losing. Especially at the level you get that. And even then it's extremely situational AT BEST whether you ever see that attack.
The ONLY real thing that you miss out on is gaining more Arcana. That's the trade off. Even then, the best Arcana is Spell Blending to grab more Wizard spells. So in that you are right. The PrC would end up with fewer Wizard spells, which sucks. But better BAB and Spell Critical are nice enough that if you are playing to high levels, you would do better to chase those.
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I'm just really not sure I buy your arguments, Syl. Five points is kind of a lot of Pool Points. It might not seem it at first but consider that after level 11's Improved Pool Spell, that's actually 5 Scorching Rays. Two and a half extra Hastes.
I'm also not sold on the idea that BAB is better than because of GMW. If the Magus doesn't have to use GMW he gets an extra use of Haste or Displacement or something every day.
Finally, I think you're discounting the Arcana too much. If you just look at the class with number crunching goggles on, they might not seem that impressive. But in my playtest of the Magus, situations where I've been nearly screwed show just how great they can be. At level 8 I still have about a 10% chance to fail concentration checks for Level 2 spells, 20% for level 3. I failed a check to cast defensively while entangled by a Warmonger Devil's net. Those devils to extra damage when you're entangled and its possible I's have lost the Gaseous Form spell that was about to save my butt. But in this clutch situation, the Concentration Arcana saved me with a re-roll.
Later against a Treant, we learned that that the Magus is terribly vulnerable to Trample. Again, without the Empower Arcana to boost the damage output of Scorching Ray we'd have a dead Magus.
The Magus has all kinds of awesome abilities and some clutch as sh*t abilities, too. I'm not giving them up for full BAB and maybe, if my campaign gets that high, a decent capstone.
Most people I have seen do not think that that the EK capstone is worthwhile when you can just get straight damage boost with your swift action from arcane strike. How often do you see yourself using this capstone anyway, since the Magus can get it once per day at 12th level instead of waiting until 16.
Overall, you come out equal on HD, lose a caster level, and gain +2 BAB. Not really worth it IMO. That extra attack will rarely hit anyway.
Personally, I would rate the Magus / EK build as a nice way if you want/need a higher BAB for your build, but it´s not always better IMO.
The biggest advantages of the EK build are:
+3 BAB
access to figher feats req. level 15
Spell Critical - but since it uses a swift action it´s you might not have the action left if you use Arcane Accurancy, of Arcane Pool and a lot of other arcanas.
1 more bonus combat feat
Downsides:
You lose one CL
No access to higher level arcanas, fewer arcanas.
Access to heavy armor
Improved Spell Pool (more spellcasting)
Greater Spell Combat, pretty hard not to pass on a concentration check
Counterstrike ...well better to have it than to miss it
Greater Spell Curse: access to every damn extremly situational wizard spell till level 6... so much versatility can be power
True Magus ... well.
It seems like a fair trade, you give up versatility and stamina for power.
A lot of you guys are right. You give up a lot of versatility to go the EK route. However, your burst damage and nova capability........off the charts.
Spellstoring weapon, spell combat, spell critical (15-20 threat) plus a full attack with all 4 (5 with haste) attacks is quite a round. Plus it's something you can do fairly consistently (aside from the spellstoring part which is really just your opening hit of a combat).
I don't think it's a terrible way to go at all. And mostly, I think the Magus high level abilities suck compared to their low level ones, though I know some of you disagree. It feels like a front-loaded class that you then are stuck progressing because it's so niche that there is no other option.
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See, I'm going to be playtesting a 12th level Magus soon, and I have to say it was hard for me to choose my Arcana because there are so many useful ones. Shield is really great (because of the wording on Spell Combat I'm not sure if I can wield a shield or not), Accuracy is spot on, Close Spell is pretty much a given, and even the Metamagic Arcana are nice, since they don't have the high price point of rods, and you can use them in conjunction with spell combat (which, as written, you can't with rods).
As a big supporter of the Eldritch Knight, I think it's much better off as a hybrid Wizard/Fighter than going into it from Magus. You get much better spell selection as the former, and I, personally, wouldn't want to pass up all the tricks the Magus gets as its trade-off. (Also, Pool Spell? I love you.)
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A lot of you guys are right. You give up a lot of versatility to go the EK route. However, your burst damage and nova capability........off the charts.
Spellstoring weapon, spell combat, spell critical (15-20 threat) plus a full attack with all 4 (5 with haste) attacks is quite a round. Plus it's something you can do fairly consistently (aside from the spellstoring part which is really just your opening hit of a combat).
I don't think it's a terrible way to go at all. And mostly, I think the Magus high level abilities suck compared to their low level ones, though I know some of you disagree. It feels like a front-loaded class that you then are stuck progressing because it's so niche that there is no other option.
Even after my previous post, I will say that a high level Magus/EK would really steal the show on the first full-attack of combat. The number of dice rolled would be GLORIOUS.
I think the best Arcanas are Shield, Accuracy, and Spell Blending. Getting wizard spells (we've already talked about calcific touch on a magus, but touch of gracelessness and vanish from 1st level are awesome for a magus, not to mention grabbing Heroism or False Life or any of the other awesomes you would want) is the best.
Honestly, I think I would use most of my arcanas on Spell Blending. With those spells now on the Magus list the would be subject to Improved Pool Spell for half price. That's really tasty. I think that the abilities you can grab via the Wizard spell list and Spell Blending outshine almost anything the other Arcanas can do.
Would you get an Arcana that gave you +2 to attacks, saves, and skills? I think you would. That's Heroism.
How about an arcana for 15 extra HP at the start of each fight for 1 pool point (That's false life with improved spell pool!)
There are lots of awesome spells to poach. While some of the other Arcanas are cool, give me spell blending and I'd be happy. Also, as the Wizard spell list expands, the power of Spell Blending grows, while other arcanas are static. And if the past is any indication, the wizard spell list will grow far more rapidly than side classes like the Magus or Witch will. In the end I see it becoming almost not a choice, but rather an accepted rule that Arcanas will almost all be spent on Spell Blending.
Edit: The number of dd6 you could roll on a full attack with high level Magus/EK would be glorious. You are right. I hadn't even really thought about except as an abstract "a lot"....but putting some figures to it....wow. Spell Storing Scorching Ray 12d6, 5 attacks with elemental enhancements on weapon = 25d6, Spell Combat Empowered Scorching Ray 18d6, Spell Critical Scorching Ray 12d6. Anyone have 67d6? (and that's just off the top of my head without putting much thought in!)
A lot of you guys are right. You give up a lot of versatility to go the EK route. However, your burst damage and nova capability........off the charts.
Spellstoring weapon, spell combat, spell critical (15-20 threat) plus a full attack with all 4 (5 with haste) attacks is quite a round. Plus it's something you can do fairly consistently (aside from the spellstoring part which is really just your opening hit of a combat).
I don't think it's a terrible way to go at all. And mostly, I think the Magus high level abilities suck compared to their low level ones, though I know some of you disagree. It feels like a front-loaded class that you then are stuck progressing because it's so niche that there is no other option.
The spell storing weapon bit every magus can do, spell combat ditto, full attack is only really an option where you have a good chance to hit with most attacks is with arcane accuracy - that eats up your swift action ... so spell critical is no longer possible. Just saying that a Magus always has a good use for his swift actions - especially if arcane strike stacks (I think we can win that one ^^).
An arcana that requires level 15 + would be nice to give an additional incentive to stay in the class without giving out more power right away.
See, I'm going to be playtesting a 12th level Magus soon, and I have to say it was hard for me to choose my Arcana because there are so many useful ones. Shield is really great (because of the wording on Spell Combat I'm not sure if I can wield a shield or not), Accuracy is spot on, Close Spell is pretty much a given, and even the Metamagic Arcana are nice, since they don't have the high price point of rods, and you can use them in conjunction with spell combat (which, as written, you can't with rods).
As a big supporter of the Eldritch Knight, I think it's much better off as a hybrid Wizard/Fighter than going into it from Magus. You get much better spell selection as the former, and I, personally, wouldn't want to pass up all the tricks the Magus gets as its trade-off. (Also, Pool Spell? I love you.)
You could use a buckler but but not a buckler and a weapon at the same time IMO. But since you have access to the shield spell ...and it doesn´t just last a single round.
Wizard Fighter has different ways of doing the same thing, the magus is most likely better if you are trust into combat without preparation - if they can buff all they want they will be more usefull. But thats beside the point, the channel spell mechanic has been a favourite of mine since Sword and Fist.
You don't need arcane accuracy to have a good chance to hit on full attacks with a 17 BAB. Especially if casting defensively is an auto-make by then. In fact you argue for needing arcane accuracy then make a case about arcane strike.....you won't get both at once. Either you can hit without Arcane Accuracy, making Arcane Strike useful, or you can't, making Arcane strike useless. You don't get to argue both ways.
Spell Critical is of course possible if you build around a high crit chance character and play it that way.
I think the best Arcanas are Shield, Accuracy, and Spell Blending. Getting wizard spells (we've already talked about calcific touch on a magus, but touch of gracelessness and vanish from 1st level are awesome for a magus, not to mention grabbing Heroism or False Life or any of the other awesomes you would want) is the best.
Honestly, I think I would use most of my arcanas on Spell Blending. With those spells now on the Magus list the would be subject to Improved Pool Spell for half price. That's really tasty. I think that the abilities you can grab via the Wizard spell list and Spell Blending outshine almost anything the other Arcanas can do.
Would you get an Arcana that gave you +2 to attacks, saves, and skills? I think you would. That's Heroism.
How about an arcana for 15 extra HP at the start of each fight for 1 pool point (That's false life with improved spell pool!)
There are lots of awesome spells to poach. While some of the other Arcanas are cool, give me spell blending and I'd be happy. Also, as the Wizard spell list expands, the power of Spell Blending grows, while other arcanas are static. And if the past is any indication, the wizard spell list will grow far more rapidly than side classes like the Magus or Witch will. In the end I see it becoming almost not a choice, but rather an accepted rule that Arcanas will almost all be spent on Spell Blending.
Edit: The number of dd6 you could roll on a full attack with high level Magus/EK would be glorious. You are right. I hadn't even really thought about except as an abstract "a lot"....but putting some figures to it....wow. Spell Storing Scorching Ray 12d6, 5 attacks with elemental enhancements on weapon = 25d6, Spell Combat Empowered Scorching Ray 18d6, Spell Critical Scorching Ray 12d6. Anyone have 67d6? (and that's just off the top of my head without putting much thought in!)
Yeah 5 attacks sounds great, but the last two attacks have a way worse chance to hit.
You can put a scorching ray into a spell storing weapon, but it will require a separate attack roll. Since its a ranged touch attack your dex matters.
In the first round of combat assuming you don´t need to enhance your weapon, I would use arcane accurancy especially if i had a spell in my weapon.
You don't need arcane accuracy to have a good chance to hit on full attacks with a 17 BAB. Especially if casting defensively is an auto-make by then. In fact you argue for needing arcane accuracy then make a case about arcane strike.....you won't get both at once. Either you can hit without Arcane Accuracy, making Arcane Strike useful, or you can't, making Arcane strike useless. You don't get to argue both ways.
Spell Critical is of course possible if you build around a high crit chance character and play it that way.
Just wanted to point out that if you use one of the the nice choices including arcane pool to enhance your weapon - spell critical will do nothing in that round of combat for you.
Once you have spell critical it can be quite often a sweet trade not to spend your swift action - if you chose to do so your quickened scorching ray (with Close Range arcana) will give you another attack. (Depending on how you read spellstrike and how in interacts with spell combat).
My point is - the damage output is solid but not actually over the top.
Ranged Touch attacks are easy with a 17 BAB and buffs etc. Your Dex doesn't really matter on that one. You don't need arcane accuracy to hit with it. That's if your DM requires an attack roll, as many don't off of spell storing since the idea is that it goes off as your weapon is, ya know, touching them in an unkind manner. Also, it's not like the spell goes away if you miss, so blowing arcane accuracy isn't hugely important with it.
5 attacks are great, and the lower ones still stand a good chance of hitting, but depend more on the roll. I think you're forgetting just how many bonuses high level characters have to do things. Even if your lowest attacks are at +19 only or some number around there, they still hit on a decent roll. You make it sound like your chances to hit with those attacks are terrible. They're not as bad as you think. And if they are that bad, then you're going to be using Arcane Accuracy every round and running outta pool points pretty durn fast.
Edit: Spellstrike used in conjunction with Spell Combat doesn't give you an extra attack.
If you save your swift action for Spell Critical and you don't crit, then you can use it to cast a quickened spell at the end of the round.
Of course I wouldn't use Arcane Pool to enhance my weapon. I won't even want or need to at high levels anyways. It'll be a redundant ability by then.
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Maybe it's just me, but I love the feel of Arcane Shield. Not only does it have the potential to be stronger than the shield spell (let's face it... unless you have 20+ Int, it's not really worth it), but it's also a good way to keep your enemies guessing. Because, remember, they can either attack you and risk you getting an extra +5 AC, or they can not attack you and you get to spend that Pool Point on something deadlier. Plus, as an immediate action, you can throw it up pretty much whenever you need it. It's just one less buff that you don't have to cast pre-battle, too!
Also, maybe it's just the battles I've seen in the past, but usually after maybe 2 full-attacks from both sides, the battle is pretty much over. Other than those rare occurrences, I wouldn't really need to use Arcane Accuracy because my first attack is already at a pretty decent bonus to hit already. Really, I'm planning on ONLY using it as part of a full attack to help bump up the accuracy of my secondary attack(s). As it stands though, as far as battles go, it's looking like my Magus may be able to go ~4 battles before I blow through my Arcane Pool Points, but that's because I plan on spending them frequently.
*Edit: Regarding Spell Blending -- The necessity of this arcana is somewhat based on the party. For example, I have an Inquisitor in my group that will be more than happy to throw a heroism on me. We've got a paladin with decent healing capabilities, and we've got wands of cure light wounds for pick-up healing after the fight. In a group like mine, extra wizard spells aren't going to add too much to the overall party, and I'll be getting enough buffs from allies. It is more beneficial for me, in this case, to take other Arcana because I really only need the spells on the Magus list to do what I plan on doing.
Not convinced Sylv.
First you play down the advantage of using Greater Spell Pool (which can be used efficiently with Magus Spells) by saying using it will quickly drain the Pool... then claim losing 5 Pool Points isn´t a big deal.
It seems like the whole crux of your claim is based on the ElK Capstone... But if this is so great, isn´t the fact that Full Magus can start taking (multiple) Critical Strike Arcana a good chunk of levels earlier a LITTLE relevant?
You then emphasize how the ElK can do this all day long (when they get their capstone at 17/18th char level), thus their nova power is greater... But ´Nova´ and ´all day long´ don´t usually go together, do they? OBVIOUSLY, doing so is dependent on Spell Slots, which will quickly run out if you blow them on every Crit. And the ElK is missing 5 Pool Points which could otherwise augment their Spell Slots.
Sure, I guess once can say that built at 18th or 20th level, the ElK has certain things going for it, mostly as a NPC who doesn´t care about going Nova. Extra BAB is nice I guess, but if I want that (e.g. for a Crit Feat) I´d probably prefer dipping 1 or 2 levels in Fighter or Duelist and grabbing an extra Feat or other benefit. There just isn´t signifigant enough benefits from ElK while you are ploughing thru all 10 levels, while those dips are at least viable, if not optimal. I`m sure you could make in impressive Magus/ElK NPC encounter though...
Ranged Touch attacks are easy with a 17 BAB and buffs etc. Your Dex doesn't really matter on that one. You don't need arcane accuracy to hit with it. That's if your DM requires an attack roll, as many don't off of spell storing since the idea is that it goes off as your weapon is, ya know, touching them in an unkind manner. Also, it's not like the spell goes away if you miss, so blowing arcane accuracy isn't hugely important with it.
5 attacks are great, and the lower ones still stand a good chance of hitting, but depend more on the roll. I think you're forgetting just how many bonuses high level characters have to do things. Even if your lowest attacks are at +19 only or some number around there, they still hit on a decent roll. You make it sound like your chances to hit with those attacks are terrible. They're not as bad as you think. And if they are that bad, then you're going to be using Arcane Accuracy every round and running outta pool points pretty durn fast.
Edit: Spellstrike used in conjunction with Spell Combat doesn't give you an extra attack.
If you save your swift action for Spell Critical and you don't crit, then you can use it to cast a quickened spell at the end of the round.
Of course I wouldn't use Arcane Pool to enhance my weapon. I won't even want or need to at high levels anyways. It'll be a redundant ability by then.
I tip my hat to you sir.
Not convinced Sylv.
First you play down the advantage of using Greater Spell Pool (which can be used efficiently with Magus Spells) by saying using it will quickly drain the Pool... then claim losing 5 Pool Points isn´t a big deal.
It seems like the whole crux of your claim is based on the ElK Capstone... But if this is so great, isn´t the fact that Full Magus can start taking (multiple) Critical Strike Arcana a good chunk of levels earlier a LITTLE relevant?
You then emphasize how the ElK can do this all day long (when they get their capstone at 17/18th char level), thus their nova power is greater... But ´Nova´ and ´all day long´ don´t usually go together, do they? OBVIOUSLY, doing so is dependent on Spell Slots, which will quickly run out if you blow them on every Crit. And the ElK is missing 5 Pool Points which could otherwise augment their Spell Slots.
Sure, I guess once can say that built at 18th or 20th level, the ElK has certain things going for it, mostly as a NPC who doesn´t care about going Nova. Extra BAB is nice I guess, but if I want that (e.g. for a Crit Feat) I´d probably prefer dipping 1 or 2 levels in Fighter or Duelist and grabbing an extra Feat or other benefit. There just isn´t signifigant enough benefits from ElK while you are ploughing thru all 10 levels, while those dips are at least viable, if not optimal. I`m sure you could make in impressive Magus/ElK NPC encounter though...
You make good points. I'm really not able to beat that argument. I'm really only arguing that I hate the late Magus abilities. If the argument for them is "well it's better than going through all ten levels of EK", that's not that great of an argument. I just think that late level Magus is good, but not interesting. Give me some INTERESTING developments and abilities, not just "well it progresses what I can already do." The ability to snag wizard spells at 19 is cool, but I don't even see it getting used much. The capstone is terrrrrrible. Counterstrike is bad.
I'm arguing more just to see people's counterarguments (though I'm certainly serious about certain aspects of the argument...BAB is better than you guys are giving it credit for, and spell critical is pretty awesome for a Magus...better than the other capstones tho y'all are right its not worth alllllll that you lose to get there). It's helped me get a better understanding of the high level ways to play the Magus.
I still say Spell Blending is the best Arcana. Relying on groupmates is awesome. Still though.....Calcific Touch....really, you want that. And as more wizard spells are made available it will get better, whereas the rest of the class abilities will be static.
Davor, your point about Spell Shield is a good one tactically, though, as you point out, fights are so short that I dunno how much that tactic really will keep enemies guessing since there is not enough time in combat to really analyze tactics and start guessing! I do like that Arcana though.
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I grant you, I'm not terribly excited about any new ability or Improved/Greater ability after level 11's Improved Pool Spell. I never expect my campaigns to hit level 17 or higher so I've never paid much attention to capstones for any class.
It is possible that at level 12 I'd consider moving to EK. I'd want Improved Pool Spell and if I've gone that far I might as well get one more Pool Point and an Arcana at 12. But now its going to take me 2 levels to finally get a level 5 spell. And I don't get a good Will save anymore. All for 1 more BAB and a bonus feat? Meh.
I've just always been really unimpressed with the EK. It's not anything like as interesting as any of the other PrC's. The Holy Vindicator is a better example of how I'd like a full BAB version of a spell casting class to be in a PrC. I look forward to seeing what PrC's for the Magus exist in UM.
I grant you, I'm not terribly excited about any new ability or Improved/Greater ability after level 11's Improved Pool Spell. I never expect my campaigns to hit level 17 or higher so I've never paid much attention to capstones for any class.
It is possible that at level 12 I'd consider moving to EK. I'd want Improved Pool Spell and if I've gone that far I might as well get one more Pool Point and an Arcana at 12. But now its going to take me 2 levels to finally get a level 5 spell. And I don't get a good Will save anymore. All for 1 more BAB and a bonus feat? Meh.
I've just always been really unimpressed with the EK. It's not anything like as interesting as any of the other PrC's. The Holy Vindicator is a better example of how I'd like a full BAB version of a spell casting class to be in a PrC. I look forward to seeing what PrC's for the Magus exist in UM.
I totally agree on all fronts, except the fact that campaigns I play in almost always go 1-20...or start higher and go to about 20.
EK is boring. They tried to spice it up with Spell Critical and bonus feats, and while the bonus feats are nice, they are not interesting. Spell Critical is cool, but needing a swift action is a pain, as I think that a lot of Magus players are going to realize with so many things requiring swift actions (does using an immediate action in PF still use your next round's swift action, or is that out?)
That said, EK is a build finisher class. It's what you take to make an idea work, not something that defines your idea.
Like, for example, Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 4/EK 10 or Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 3/Arcane Archer 3/EK +7/AA +1. It just fills in the holes of what you really want, without defining it.
I'm also really excited to see what PrC they have in mind for the Magus. I'm guessing it'll be a full BAB that loses some caster levels but progresses some Magus abilities, with one cool twist thrown in (along the lines of Master Chymist).
Edit: Been meaning to say...your name is a combination of two of my favorite things in the world. Yuengers and Dragons. Makes me laugh every time I read the name. Ohhhhhh college I miss you.
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Edit: Been meaning to say...your name is a combination of two of my favorite things in the world. Yuengers and Dragons. Makes me laugh every time I read the name. Ohhhhhh college I miss you.
Ha! I've been using this handle for so many years now. I sure as hell wish I had just gone with BeerDragon for simplicity when I started using it, though. There's a pretty small number of states that commonly have Yuengling so most people don't get it.
Sh*t, now I want a beer... Off to the fridge! To beer and dragons!
To beer and dragons!
I'm officially making that my in game "tavern war cry" for every character I play. Just sayin'.
Ok....and maybe my IRL "tavern war cry" as well, despite that Miller Lite commercial...
But yes! Prestige classing the Magus! Interesting ideas all round guys. This discussion has opened my eyes.....though I still just want to make a 12th level Magus who Dex-Zeros people with a Spellstoring weapon packing Touch of Gracelessness, and then Spell Combat for Calcific Touch. Using my swift action to make sure my spellstoring rapier is also Keen.
A potential -4 up to -19 Dex (and possibly slowing!) in one round? I'm gonna be collecting statues!
I think I've got some Yuengling in my fridge too!
No dragons, though.
I REALLY like the idea of a class built around having a bunch of "trump cards" or "clutch" powers.
I like the idea as well. I especially like the way the Magus looks like it could play a dungeon crawl...
If you use spell combat to throw up minute buffs, you're gonna be a dungeon-blitz machine who gets stronger with each fight, just simply by adding more and more buffs.
If you use Spell Combat to put up things like Shield, Blur, Bear's Endurance or the like, Heroism, etc., your buffs just keep stacking as you go, which is a cool idea.
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I think I've got some Yuengling in my fridge too!
No dragons, though.
I REALLY like the idea of a class built around having a bunch of "trump cards" or "clutch" powers.
I actually went with a Pumpkin Spice Ale. Seasonally appropriate and pretty delicious.
I'm definitely into the idea of a clutch power PrC for the Magus. My play testing has shown that a lot of the abilities are useful in a variety of situations depending on how you use it. But something that expanded on that with a big boost to Pool Points and a selection of special Arcana would be really cool.
I hope Paizo is reading this. This could be a cool idea alongside a full BAB more martial PrC that worked for various arcane casters.
How about a class that either continues progressing Pool Points with other specialized interesting uses for them, or allows other arcane casters to jump in and gain a limited amount of Pool Points to use with the abilities of the PrC. That could be a cool across-the-board idea for a class. It would open up the development of feats that played off pool points (which I fully expect to be what their hint about Arcane Strike being a pre-requisite leads to). I'm assuming their will also be feats like Extra Arcana or Extra Pool Points or what-have you.
Yeah, I got my buddy some pumpkin Saranac a few years ago as a joke, but the joke was on me because it was super delicious!!!
Anyways, I really like the idea of spending a point from a pool of potential and get swift action/immediate action "casting times" with 1 round buffs or defenses. Like 1 round of converting attacks into touch attacks, 1 round of getting a shield bonus to AC, 1 round of DR, 1 round of energy damage, etc. etc.
Two amazing combinations: Gourds and beer! Spellcasting and Melee! Cheers to both creators.
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Yeah, I got my buddy some pumpkin Saranac a few years ago as a joke, but the joke was on me because it was super delicious!!!
Hehe, yeah I laughed when I got this for my wife and now it makes me get mad smiles.
Anyways, I really like the idea of spending a point from a pool of potential and get swift action/immediate action "casting times" with 1 round buffs or defenses. Like 1 round of converting attacks into touch attacks, 1 round of getting a shield bonus to AC, 1 round of DR, 1 round of energy damage, etc. etc.
I think this has a lot of potential. I'd be excited to see this happen.
Unfortunately, or fortunately for those that want this, I think it works. Check it:Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.The Magus can do this. It can cast without preparation.
Except seen in that way, anyone meets the prerequisite if he/she has a single ranks in use magic device. Using scrolls is considered casting, IIRC.
@Sylvanite: I totally understood your point, that the Magus Capstones are not amazing... But obviously, all their mid-level abilities are VERY worthwhile, and you can´t grab many of them if you want to go the whole 10-level ElK route (never mind that route doesn´t have many benefits along the way). I agree that the Capstones for Magus are un-interesting, merely handing out two more Arcana would be MUCH more beneficial in general. (at least given Spell Blending, which I feel is too problematic and should be removed or further limited, likewise for the other abilities allowing off-list access, and/or usage with Magus abilities, like the Wand arcana adding INT to DC along with Spell Combat potentially with all Arcane/Divine spells)
I disagree about Counterstrike, you may not think it`s the uber power, but it makes Magus´ the ultimate mage-fighter duelists: imagine any Magus who has facing off vs. a lower level Magus or any other fighter-mage e.g. ElK, Arcane Duelist Bard, etc. It is the counterpart to their autopassing Casting Defensively, so you don´t want to be toe-to-toe with them (unfortunately for Dragon Disciples, Inquisitors, and Battle Oracles).
But then again, I think the Magus offers a very compelling advancement all the way up it`s levels, to the point where I don´t think the NEED anything uber powerful or amazing. Not every class has an uber Capstone - Barbarians get Tireless Rage at 17th and another Rage Power at 18th, but past that they just boost their Rage Bonus by +2, bump their DR and get one more Rage Power at 20th - What Capstone? But obviously in that case , there IS already compelling benefits (esp. with APG) to go all the way to 17th, and once you´re there going all the way certainly isn´t a BAD choice to a 2 or 3 level dip.
I get your points, I just think you can do something so much more compelling with a character that mixes melee and magic. The best they could come up with is some generic later level abilities and just the old "advancing what you already do" style stuff?
Also, your description of Counterstrike shows its purely situational value, you have to be going specifically against those kinds of enemies for it to even go off. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that chances are your enemy is going to 5' step away to cast...keep in mind they don't have spell combat (unless you're literally fighting another magus). Also, the fact that you take the attack after the spell resolves? Chances are you're dead or incapacitated! It's too little too late, too situational, especially for such a high level ability.
Now if they changed it to resolve before the spell.....now we're talking about an awesome high level thing to go for. Still a little situational, but at least it's a force to be reckoned with.
The spells section of the magus class states he's a prepared caster. As such it doesn't matter what later abilities let him do -- he's still a prepared caster, while Dragon Disciple requires a spontaneous caster -- something that is specifically declared in the summoner, bard, and sorcerer classes.
Thoughts on Prestige classes for the Magus:
Arcane Trickster -- The mixing of Magus with rogue actually functions -- dependent on getting a sword of subtlety. Magus 4 gives +3 BAB while rogue 3 gives +2 giving +5 at level 7 when you enter the class -- not bad. Two levels puts you at +6 at level 9 (still even) with 3d6 sneak attack dice. The abilities of the arcane trickster work well with spell combat and the spells available from the magus list work very well with the arcane trickster. The biggest problem is the lack of BAB from arcane trickster. With Magus 4/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 10/Eldritch Knight 3 you would end up with +13 BAB to go with your 7d6 sneak attack damage and attacking while casting spells -- not great but mix in that sword of subtlety I mentioned while doing spell combat and you should come out alright.
Duelist makes for a great dip for the magus, but I wouldn't use it for much more than a dip.
Eldritch knight offers more fighter levels for feats (possibly good) with one extra combat feat and +2 BAB at the cost of +2 to your will save and magus abilities. I know many aren't impressed with the magus pool, however the sheer spell versitility it offers shouldn't be thrown away easily -- the ability to out do the wish spell for versitility in class options (or even simply cast the wish spell) isn't an easy thing to pass up, even if it is a limited number of times per day -- especially since the BAB issue can be overcome with the casting of transformation (in general).
Assassin has abilities that really work well with what the magus has (especially as an Int based caster). As a lead in to arcane trickster assassin works as well as rogue does in my opinion -- though at slightly later level.
Most of the other prestige classes don't offer much to the magus: Bloatmage is basically a weaker version of spell pool, the magus doesn't easily qualify for diabloist (but can with spell blending), loremaster takes everything that makes the magus work and throws it away.
Mystic theurge offers great ideas -- at the cost of needing six magus levels to really work and leaving you with little BAB -- but the idea of a magus 7/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10 is interesting... if the BAB of +12 can be overcome being able to full attack, quicken a spell, and use a spell synthesis to cast two more spells could be nothing short of amazing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Step Up solve the 5-foot-step thing?
Also, kind of a sidenote, but what if Counterstrike was simultaneous with the spell? So your defensively-casting target still gets their spell off no matter what, but your Magus still gets off the attack no matter what.
I like the idea of a Magus/Duelist build, though I don't think I'd invest in a full 10 levels of Duelist. Maybe enough to get the INT bonus to AC.
Well, Int to AC is per Duelist level, as is their Precise Strike damage. I agree it's a big tradeoff to take ten levels, but it's a cool flavored build that would be functional. Dipping 4 levels (as Abe referenced with his dip comment) might work to boost Damage and AC by 4, get you to +16 BAB, and get you Parry, which is a neat ability, along with some other little goodies.
As for Counterstrike, when you need to start defending high level abilities by saying "well if you have this feat..." then they aren't so great. So every Magus needs step-up? Blah. Also, as it's written, a caster can teleport away, and you won't get the attack, since by the time it's done, their gone. Lame. I know certain feats can fix that, but is that really what you want to build around?
@Abe: Actually as far as I know DD just says you need to be able to spontaneously cast 1st level spells...which a Magus easily does past 4th level. I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW it's not the same, I was just playing around because of the wording. It does not say "you must be a spontaneous caster" though.
As for Magus, I don't think they can cast wish since the highest they can cast is 6th level spells. I don't think Greater Spell Pool gets around that, but it's ambiguously written. It does say "using the pool spell" feature, and the pool spell ability specifically states that the adjusted level of the spell cannot be higher than the magus can cast, leading me to think that anything over 6th from the wizard list is still out.
Casting Transformation (even to get higher BAB) as a Magus seems to be a terrible idea! I wouldn't recommend that at all, though your points are generally dead on.
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The spells section of the magus class states he's a prepared caster. As such it doesn't matter what later abilities let him do -- he's still a prepared caster, while Dragon Disciple requires a spontaneous caster -- something that is specifically declared in the summoner, bard, and sorcerer classes.
Read the DD prereqs again. You just have to be able to "cast level 1 arcane spells without preparation." The section on Spells Per Day even says "if he is a spontaneous caster" emphasis mine. And that's the only time spontaneous is mentioned in the whole thing.
I realize that it is unlikely that this was what was intended my Paizo. I do realize that. I am not going to try and convince my GM to let me do it. But the wording is absolute crap and, intended or not, allows the Magus or a Wizard with a bonded item to enter DD.
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Casting Transformation (even to get higher BAB) as a Magus seems to be a terrible idea! I wouldn't recommend that at all, though your points are generally dead on.
I see it as a bit of a last-ditch move, when it's the final encounter, you're out of good spells, relying on your fighting skills instead of magic anyway, but you can blow your final 3 pool points to cast this thing and turn the tide. Or, put another way, I can see a real point for a Magus to have this spell in his book, but not your average Wizard.