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So I am going to play in a campaign that will be largely city base. So says me DM. "I'm not sure how city base that may be" but he suggested that I take urban ranger.
There are 2 reasons I should take urban Ranger. One, is of course what I just mentioned, and two was because no one in our group can detect traps.
We are being restricted to humans only, and Paladins and Rangers must use non magical Variants. From my understanding, I can take as many Archetypes as I want so long as they do not overlap any other Archetypes. So I was going to be a Skirmisher Urban Ranger. I believe this is correct. We will only have 1 spell caster, which someone decided to play as a witch.
We plan to only go to level 10, starting at level 1.
My question is, should I just assume that this would be the best course of action? My other "build" was a rogue 4/ranger 6. So I would take Infiltrator instead, and he has largely hinted that Undead will play a part in the game. "A Diablo like Campaign." I would take Dark vision since everyone would be human. This would be extremely useful, maybe evil outsider at level 5. Not to mention the fun rogue abilities like Snap shot and Camouflage. I want to shoot first when someone comes looking for a bounty.
I was thinking going throwing daggers, two weapon fighting, and rapid shot.
I also don't know what to do with my animal companion.
Why not just straight Rogue? If you need a trapfinder and you want to be a skirmisher type character Rogue is perfect for that. Lots of extra skill points to make sure you can find those traps and for social skills so you can be good at urban tracking (gathering information, tailing).
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Urban ranger has made rogues useless. I agree, take Urban Ranger with Skirmisher tricks. No reason to dip rogue; it's only 2 skill points, and 1 if you favored class skill points (since rogue won't have it). Favored community is excellently if it is a city-focused campaign. Fighting style is your choice, but the archery package with melée "backup" provides a very solid foundation. Ranger is surprisingly selfish; favored enemy packages and the feats are huge.
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Rogues are not useless. Skirmisher in a city seting is not a good choice. There will be constant line of sight problems. Why do you think that modern armys don't like fighting in them. It's not becous they can't hit any thing. It's beocus your on top of the bad guys befor you know what's going on. Plus with range it's realy easy to brak line of sight in side a city just as or more so then in the forest. Range is best when your on the planes or open areas. This dose not hapen much in the corse of most games. Mounted combat hase the same problem as range in this regards.
As far as Ranger vs. Rogue.
Ranger = Better BAB, Few more HP , Few less skill points, Favord Enemys, Combat Styles
Rogue = Lower BAB, Few Less HP , Few more skill points, sneek attack damage, Rogue Talents,
Level 20 some of the best splits. In my opion are.
Ranger 12 Rogue 7 Monk 1 = Two Weapon Fighting AC build
Ranger 7 Rogue 13 = High Sneek attack damage, free improved two weapon fighting str base high dps
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Ranger actually cheats that, in the sense they are the only ones who can get improved precise in his level cap (they get it @ 6)
Urban Skirmisher Ranger
(human by requirement) - 20 point build assumed
Str: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Dex: 18 (+2 level ups eventually)
Con: 12
Chr: 7
Feats: 1 - PBS, Weapon Focus: CLB
2 - Rapid Shot
3 - Power Attack (gives good melée option)... or Lookout if you have another sneaky friend willing to do it with you.
5 - Boon Companion (if legal)
6 - Improved Precise
7 - Multishot
9 - Deadly Aim
Enemies: 1 - Undead 5 - Humans 10 - Evil Outsiders
Rogues are not useless. Skirmisher in a city seting is not a good choice. There will be constant line of sight problems. Why do you think that modern armys don't like fighting in them. It's not becous they can't hit any thing. It's beocus your on top of the bad guys befor you know what's going on. Plus with range it's realy easy to brak line of sight in side a city just as or more so then in the forest. Range is best when your on the planes or open areas. This dose not hapen much in the corse of most games. Mounted combat hase the same problem as range in this regards.
As far as Ranger vs. Rogue.
Ranger = Better BAB, Few more HP , Few less skill points, Favord Enemys, Combat StylesRogue = Lower BAB, Few Less HP , Few more skill points, sneek attack damage, Rogue Talents,
Level 20 some of the best splits. In my opion are.
Ranger 12 Rogue 7 Monk 1 = Two Weapon Fighting AC build
Ranger 7 Rogue 13 = High Sneek attack damage, free improved two weapon fighting str base high dps
Ah thanks, I'm pretty sure we won't got to far past level 10, if we go past it at all. We will probably hit 12 at farthest, but I know this DM hates high level campaigns "all those dice...." :p
I was thinking taking levels in monk. From what I can tell, my part will be a Barbarian/Fighter "The player is going to pick one or the other" A Monk, a Witch, and me the trap finding Ranger maybe rogue.
He is also letting us have 2 Traits.
Ranger actually cheats that, in the sense they are the only ones who can get improved precise in his level cap (they get it @ 6)
Urban Skirmisher Ranger
(human by requirement) - 20 point build assumed
Str: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Dex: 18 (+2 level ups eventually)
Con: 12
Chr: 7Feats: 1 - PBS, Weapon Focus: CLB
2 - Rapid Shot
3 - Power Attack (gives good melée option)... or Lookout if you have another sneaky friend willing to do it with you.
5 - Boon Companion (if legal)
6 - Improved Precise
7 - Multishot
9 - Deadly AimEnemies: 1 - Undead 5 - Humans 10 - Evil Outsiders
I don't think he will allow Boon Companion, I will ask him. He is pretty strict on making sure something is official. I'll ask him though.
Speaking of which, I'm pretty unsure if I should even bother with an animal companion. I might get a variant called Spiritual Guide that was located in Complete Champion as a level 4 replacement for ranger. I asked about that here.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/spiritualGuideHowDoTheyWork&page=1#2
It does allow for good RP, but I don't know if I would want to lose my pet.
If I do get an animal Companion. I don't even know which one to pick, or which feats would best suit it inside a city.
I also get 2 free traits I can pick.
That is a nice build.
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Level cap 10
Ranger 6 Rogue 3 Monk 1
Ranger 6 Rogue 4
Level cap 12
Ranger 6 Rogue 5 Monk 1
Ranger 6 Rogue 6
same over all effect.
using a 20 point buy.
Ranger Rogue Monk
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 15
Cha 8
Ranger Combat Style Two Weapon Fighting
2 Two Weapon Fighting
6 Improved Two weapon Fighting
Rogue Talents
2 Weapon Training
4 Suprise Attack
Monk Bouns Feet
Dodge
Feets
1 Improved Initiative
3 Weapon Finess
5 Steep Up
7 Following Step
9 Combat Reflexes
11 Step up and Strike
Ranger Rogue
Str 15
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8
Ranger Combat Style Two Weapon Fighting
2 Two Weapon Fighting
6 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Rogue Talents
2 Weapon Training
4 Suprise Attack
6 Combat Trick: Power Attack
Feets
1 Improved Initiative
3 Combat Expertise
5 Gang Up
7 Out Flank / Toughness
9 Percise Strike / Step Up
11 Toughness / Following Step
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Urban Ranger over Rogue every time. If that stacks with Skirmisher and you can't take a casting Ranger (although the reasoning for that is beyond me) then Ranger all the way.
If you take Rogue you're getting less health, less BAB, and less weapon proficiencies to gain 2 skill points. It's not a fair trade.
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Urban Ranger over Rogue every time. If that stacks with Skirmisher and you can't take a casting Ranger (although the reasoning for that is beyond me) then Ranger all the way.
If you take Rogue you're getting less health, less BAB, and less weapon proficiencies to gain 2 skill points. It's not a fair trade.
The rogue does get less health, BAB, and less weapon proficiencies, but the rogue is actually useful at doing stuff in a city - where gathering information (Diplomacy) is more important than tracking.
It's actually a more than fair trade. If you want excellent fighting ability, just take the first two levels of Rogue: Investigator and then regular ranger (for Favored Terrain Urban) or Fighter.
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Urban Ranger over Rogue every time. If that stacks with Skirmisher and you can't take a casting Ranger (although the reasoning for that is beyond me) then Ranger all the way.
If you take Rogue you're getting less health, less BAB, and less weapon proficiencies to gain 2 skill points. It's not a fair trade.
The rogue does get less health, BAB, and less weapon proficiencies, but the rogue is actually useful at doing stuff in a city - where gathering information (Diplomacy) is more important than tracking.
It's actually a more than fair trade. If you want excellent fighting ability, just take the first two levels of Rogue: Investigator and then regular ranger (for Favored Terrain Urban) or Fighter.
You can gather information with Knowledge (Local), which the Urban Ranger has as a class skill. Not to mention that if a rogue wants to be combat viable he probably shouldn't be stacking charisma.
Once again, Urban Ranger over Rogue. Every time.
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Urban Ranger over Rogue every time. If that stacks with Skirmisher and you can't take a casting Ranger (although the reasoning for that is beyond me) then Ranger all the way.
If you take Rogue you're getting less health, less BAB, and less weapon proficiencies to gain 2 skill points. It's not a fair trade.
The rogue does get less health, BAB, and less weapon proficiencies, but the rogue is actually useful at doing stuff in a city - where gathering information (Diplomacy) is more important than tracking.
It's actually a more than fair trade. If you want excellent fighting ability, just take the first two levels of Rogue: Investigator and then regular ranger (for Favored Terrain Urban) or Fighter.
You can gather information with Knowledge (Local), which the Urban Ranger has as a class skill. Not to mention that if a rogue wants to be combat viable he probably shouldn't be stacking charisma.
Once again, Urban Ranger over Rogue. Every time.
You cannot "Gather Information" with Knowledge (Local). Knowledge is for stuff you know. Knowledge is for more fixed information about a locale. You can't use it to track down the current location of Steve, who could be anywhere.
And Tracking with survival won't help unless he let a trail of footprints there. Good luck finding Steve with an Urban Ranger.
Even if it was same, the Rogue investigator rolls 2 dice for every Gather Information check, making it twice as good at it.
I have no idea what you mean by stacking Charisma.
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Urban Ranger over Rogue every time. If that stacks with Skirmisher and you can't take a casting Ranger (although the reasoning for that is beyond me) then Ranger all the way.
If you take Rogue you're getting less health, less BAB, and less weapon proficiencies to gain 2 skill points. It's not a fair trade.
The rogue does get less health, BAB, and less weapon proficiencies, but the rogue is actually useful at doing stuff in a city - where gathering information (Diplomacy) is more important than tracking.
It's actually a more than fair trade. If you want excellent fighting ability, just take the first two levels of Rogue: Investigator and then regular ranger (for Favored Terrain Urban) or Fighter.
You can gather information with Knowledge (Local), which the Urban Ranger has as a class skill. Not to mention that if a rogue wants to be combat viable he probably shouldn't be stacking charisma.
Once again, Urban Ranger over Rogue. Every time.
You cannot "Gather Information" with Knowledge (Local). Knowledge is for stuff you know. Knowledge is for more fixed information about a locale. You can't use it to track down the current location of Steve, who could be anywhere.
Even if it was same, the Rogue investigator rolls 2 dice for every Gather Information check, making it twice as good at it.
I have no idea what you mean by stacking Charisma.
In practice, the two skills often overlap. As for the charisma comment, I was merely wondering if your trap-busting, dual-wielding, diplomatic rogue has high charisma? It's a hard enough class to build without being able to dump it.
Actually, you're not even worrying about traps, because your archetype dumps trapfinding. So I say then that a bard out-diplomatizes a rogue, and an urban ranger is a far more optimal trap-finder.
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Urban Ranger over Rogue every time. If that stacks with Skirmisher and you can't take a casting Ranger (although the reasoning for that is beyond me) then Ranger all the way.
If you take Rogue you're getting less health, less BAB, and less weapon proficiencies to gain 2 skill points. It's not a fair trade.
The rogue does get less health, BAB, and less weapon proficiencies, but the rogue is actually useful at doing stuff in a city - where gathering information (Diplomacy) is more important than tracking.
It's actually a more than fair trade. If you want excellent fighting ability, just take the first two levels of Rogue: Investigator and then regular ranger (for Favored Terrain Urban) or Fighter.
You can gather information with Knowledge (Local), which the Urban Ranger has as a class skill. Not to mention that if a rogue wants to be combat viable he probably shouldn't be stacking charisma.
Once again, Urban Ranger over Rogue. Every time.
You cannot "Gather Information" with Knowledge (Local). Knowledge is for stuff you know. Knowledge is for more fixed information about a locale. You can't use it to track down the current location of Steve, who could be anywhere.
Even if it was same, the Rogue investigator rolls 2 dice for every Gather Information check, making it twice as good at it.
I have no idea what you mean by stacking Charisma.
In practice, the two skills often overlap. As for the charisma comment, I was merely wondering if your trap-busting, dual-wielding, diplomatic rogue has high charisma? It's a hard enough class to build without being able to dump it.
Actually, you're not even worrying about traps, because your archetype dumps trapfinding. So I say then that a bard out-diplomatizes a rogue, and an urban ranger is a far more optimal trap-finder.
Diplomacy and Knowledge Local don't actually overlap that much once examined. The only real overlap is where it says Kn: Local may let you common rumors. The Kn: Local is really more about the static setting of the town. So while local knowledge may let you know about rumors that have been floating around so long they are common knowledge, you can't really get into the more dynamic of information about current events as they are happening, such as, "What is currently up with the Deathknife gang, where might their members currently be hanging out as of us last night?" That's where Gathering Information comes in.
They do two skills do complement each other though and should provide some nice synergy.What Rogue: Investigator does is give access to this skill and let you roll two dice for each attempt. That's better than the Bard. At 2nd level, the Rogue can also take Follow Clues which lets the rogue track a related matter with perception as if it were Survival. The sneak attack die isn't bad either.
Now of course, it matters what else your build is, but I don't see any other class granting the sort of urban-mastery, information-gathering ability of Rogue: Investigator. It also matters to what degree your GM may re-interpret what skills can do.
For personal use, I just take the first two levels of Rogue and add them to a Cleaving, Overruning Greatsword Fighter, in essence building a sword-wielding Batman who can reduce the Armor Check and movement penalty of breastplate to zero with Armor Training. It would be better if I added levels of regular Ranger though and took favored terrain Urban, which would add the favored bonus to all urban environments (more generally useful than the Urban ranger's favored community).
And although the rogue archetype ditches trap finding, the rogue can find traps, even take trap spotter for automatic rolls. It's just a lack of ability to disable magical traps as granted by Trap Finding.
But yes, I'm not bothered by losing that extra trap disabling ability, nor even losing the Evasion by wearing Medium armor. My sole concern is being able to know the urban environment and track someone down. By that measure, the Rogue has others beat with the Investigator Archetype.
@Mergy
Don't forget that rogues have two bad saves and the ranger has only one.
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If a campaign is going to be a REAL heavy investigation seting then Investigator Rogue is cool. But otherwise, you just dropped prety much the only justification for bothering with a Rogue in the party.
In reality while the Investigator may have an edge, I would sooner take a Bard for the party as they have high Cha, the ability to add to skill rolls, and all in all are just a hell of a lot more useful.
If I need trapfinding for the team I go Urban Ranger, if trapfinding is not needed I go Bard for all things facey, great songs and spells and decent fighting ability.
The Investigator is handy in a specific area, but in all other situations he is lacking.
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Regarding Boon Companion, it is in the APG book so I see no reason why you could not take it
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Diplomacy and Knowledge Local don't actually overlap that much once examined. The only real...
The investigator has a neat ability. I just don't think it's really what the OP asked for.
I don't know where you get "track people down and investigate" from "Diablo-type campaign". Seems to me it's going to be more of an undead-killing hack-and-slash. Favoured Enemy looks great for that.
leo1925: Missed that. Another advantage to the Urban Ranger.
Better BAB, better saves, more combat feats, favoured enemy > sneak attack, medium armour, full martial weapons. The choice is pretty clear.
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I wouldnt go straight rogue, but a rogue or rogue archetype for either 2 or 3 levels can make a good addition to either a fighter or a ranger.
2d6 sneak attack in exchange for -1 bab.
+3 ref in exchange for -1 fort.
-3hp in exchange for 6 skill points.
and you get evasion, trapfinding, trap sense, and a rogue talent-or-bonus feat.
I think it can be worth a 3 level dip.
You've already traded your spells, so the only problem I'm seeing is how fast you need your twf or animal companion to scale.
And all the urban ranger gets thats really special now is blend in.
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So I am going to play in a campaign that will be largely city base. So says me DM. "I'm not sure how city base that may be" but he suggested that I take urban ranger.
There are 2 reasons I should take urban Ranger. One, is of course what I just mentioned, and two was because no one in our group can detect traps.
We are being restricted to humans only, and Paladins and Rangers must use non magical Variants.
Since you must stick to non magic versions, I would be remiss if I didn't also suggest the Spell-Less Ranger from Kobold Quarterly. It has plenty of ranger talents that are similar to rogue tricks, has a stealth attack etc. Just take urban as your favorite terrain and you could get a very appropriate character without having to multi-class :)
So I am going to play in a campaign that will be largely city base. So says me DM. "I'm not sure how city base that may be" but he suggested that I take urban ranger.
There are 2 reasons I should take urban Ranger. One, is of course what I just mentioned, and two was because no one in our group can detect traps.
We are being restricted to humans only, and Paladins and Rangers must use non magical Variants.
Since you must stick to non magic versions, I would be remiss if I didn't also suggest the Spell-Less Ranger from Kobold Quarterly. It has plenty of ranger talents that are similar to rogue tricks, has a stealth attack etc. Just take urban as your favorite terrain and you could get a very appropriate character without having to multi-class :)
*casts Check Out Post Date on Marc and everyone else*
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I'm not sure why folks started commenting on a build posted a year ago either, but I just wanted to note since it IS here:
Ranger/Rogue is one of my favorite multiclass combos for a skill monkey with decent combat ability. Even with Urban Ranger available (though with urban ranger you can multiclass with a rogue archetype that swaps trapfinding for something else--like, oh, say Sniper).
With the two multiclassed you get loads and loads of class skills and can be a great all around explorer/scout type (plus it's the only way IIRC that you can get Acrobatics as a class skill, which is actually really useful for a Ranger), as adept as dealing with typical dungeons as with the outdoors. Yes, you lose some HP and BAB but this is a build that is meant to shine in other ways that don't have to do with being the "best" at combat. With a well built ranger/rogue, the party won't necessarily be saying "thank god for your awesome DPS" but they SHOULD be saying, "Thank god for saving us from that ambush/trap/recognizing that doodad for what it was/figuring out how to cover our tracks/knowing that dude was up to no good/figuring out how to keep us fed both in that cave and in the desert before it." And even though they won't be the constant stars in combat, they should either be fabulous flanking buddies or fantastic snipers---with Acrobatics plus better BAB than a straight-up rogue, they should be flanking and sneak attacking (even if fewer dice because of multiclass) very well---AND they can be TWFers without all the prerequisites, and/or with the rogue's sneak attack plus the ranger's extra ranged feats (with combat style archery) they can make good snipers--ranger archery plus rogue fast stealth FTW.
Caveat to the above: I get my RPG rocks off largely playing skillmonkeys and don't give a rat's ass about DPS.
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The amount of DPS you sacrifice is minimal. as I said youre only taking a -1.
I suppose youll be behind in FE for those sneak dice. oh well.
Also. I did a rogue monk build focused on tripping once. That was nasty. Lots of attacks. I trip you, you provoke AoOs, I punch you in the face. IIRC because I just tripped you it also gives me sneak damage regardless of flanking.
& this character was with the (nonstandard) reading of monk unarmed strike, in that unarmed strike can be enchanted as a weapon (and Idea I heavily endorse - it makes monks more competitive with the other meleers).
Plus. That time we fought a wraith, it was hilarious when I grappled it and it was helpless until it died. Ah, Ghost touch on my unarmed attacks.
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*casts Check Out Post Date on Marc and everyone else*So I am going to play in a campaign that will be largely city base. So says me DM. "I'm not sure how city base that may be" but he suggested that I take urban ranger.
There are 2 reasons I should take urban Ranger. One, is of course what I just mentioned, and two was because no one in our group can detect traps.
We are being restricted to humans only, and Paladins and Rangers must use non magical Variants.
Since you must stick to non magic versions, I would be remiss if I didn't also suggest the Spell-Less Ranger from Kobold Quarterly. It has plenty of ranger talents that are similar to rogue tricks, has a stealth attack etc. Just take urban as your favorite terrain and you could get a very appropriate character without having to multi-class :)
Ack. Now I feel silly.
Although for multiclassing to gain acrobatics I would go two levels of barbarian.
I guess my opinion differs from most people, but I enjoy Ranger/Rogue. They're both skill-monkey classes with different skill sets, so taking both gives you a very large range of things to be good at.
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If a campaign is going to be a REAL heavy investigation seting then Investigator Rogue is cool. But otherwise, you just dropped prety much the only justification for bothering with a Rogue in the party.
In reality while the Investigator may have an edge, I would sooner take a Bard for the party as they have high Cha, the ability to add to skill rolls, and all in all are just a hell of a lot more useful.
If I need trapfinding for the team I go Urban Ranger, if trapfinding is not needed I go Bard for all things facey, great songs and spells and decent fighting ability.
The Investigator is handy in a specific area, but in all other situations he is lacking.
-------------Regarding Boon Companion, it is in the APG book so I see no reason why you could not take it
In an investigation style game the Inquisitor is probably the best. Has the skills and class feature for it along with spells for that type of game.
I'd love to run an urban base game highly skill oriented with lots of investigation. The classes I'd like to see would be a Rogue Investigator, Inquisitor, Urban Ranger, and Detective Bard.
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If a campaign is going to be a REAL heavy investigation seting then Investigator Rogue is cool. But otherwise, you just dropped prety much the only justification for bothering with a Rogue in the party.
In reality while the Investigator may have an edge, I would sooner take a Bard for the party as they have high Cha, the ability to add to skill rolls, and all in all are just a hell of a lot more useful.
If I need trapfinding for the team I go Urban Ranger, if trapfinding is not needed I go Bard for all things facey, great songs and spells and decent fighting ability.
The Investigator is handy in a specific area, but in all other situations he is lacking.
-------------Regarding Boon Companion, it is in the APG book so I see no reason why you could not take it
In an investigation style game the Inquisitor is probably the best. Has the skills and class feature for it along with spells for that type of game.
I'd love to run an urban base game highly skill oriented with lots of investigation. The classes I'd like to see would be a Rogue Investigator, Inquisitor, Urban Ranger, and Detective Bard.
Of those three (excluding Urban Ranger), which one do you think would be best to take 2 levels from to add to my "hunting people down in the city" overrunning, cleaving greatsword fighter?
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Diplomacy and Knowledge Local don't actually overlap that much once examined. The only real...
The investigator has a neat ability. I just don't think it's really what the OP asked for.
I don't know where you get "track people down and investigate" from "Diablo-type campaign". Seems to me it's going to be more of an undead-killing hack-and-slash. Favoured Enemy looks great for that.
leo1925: Missed that. Another advantage to the Urban Ranger.
Better BAB, better saves, more combat feats, favoured enemy > sneak attack, medium armour, full martial weapons. The choice is pretty clear.
Sorry, I was just discussing it in a general sense, not in the context of undead-killing hack-and-slash.
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Urban Ranger? or roguish ranger?
Neither. Barbarian[urban]/rogue is the way to go, especially if you're a DEX build (which would be my suggestion, with acquisition of Agile-enhanced equipment a priority).
20pt half-elf, Ancestral Arms racial trait
STR:12
DEX+17
CON:12
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA:12
01 barb1 [Urban][Crowd Control], Extra Rage, EWP:whip
02 rogu1 SA+1s6
03 rogu2 [Evasion][Finesse Rogue], Two Weapon Fighting
04 fight1 [Unarmed], DEX>18, Dragon Style
05 rogu3 SA+2d6, Piranha Strike
06 barb2 [Uncanny Dodge][Reckless Abandon]
07 rogu4 [Improved Uncanny Dodge][ROGUE TRICK], FEAT
08 fight2 FEAT
09 (any) FEAT
Buy an Agile Amulet of Might Fists, then an Agile scorpion whip, then dexterity belt.