Remember the Master of the Unseen Hand ?
They made a whole prestige class back in 3.X to let you use Telekinesis in a way that let you throw your target in the sky, since, by RAW, you can only throw your target toward another creature or object with Telekinesis, and the sky is not an object.
Well, I found a way to steal this special ability from the Master of the Unseen Hand without loosing a single level in that dirty prestige class.
Let's say you're a Wizard, and you have a Hawk, or Bat, or Raven, or "insert random flying creature name here" familiar. That means you have in your possession a flying creature that go where you want, when you want, right ?
Ok I guess that you can already see where I'm going with this...
You simply ask to your familiar to fly far over your opponent's head at the beginning of every outdoor battles and you cast Telekinesis (violent thrust version) on your opponent to send him toward your flying familiar. Of course, your familiar needs to be in reach, and he will probably take 1d6 points of damage from the impact, but your opponent will then fall back all the way down, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet travelled and becoming prone. It's not overpowered IMO, since Telekinesis is, afterall, a 5th-level spell, the target can negate the effect with a will save and he needs to fall under the weight limit allowed by the spell. Still, it's always fun to find a new use for an old spell. (;
Would the familiar get an attack of opportunity from the opponent falling from a threatened square? (assuming its an improved familiar and not tiny) sounds like a good dose of double damage
Would the familiar get an attack of opportunity from the opponent falling from a threatened square? (assuming its an improved familiar and not tiny) sounds like a good dose of double damage
Maybe, but I don't think that would really matter. I would say that the familiar is to stunned from the impact to make an AoO, but this is just my point of view.
No dice.
While your familiar is a solid creature it is NOT a solid surface ( a wall, bridge, the ground etc)
Also, the druids local 101 is going to protest this, seeing as how the familiar would take the same damage.
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Remember the Master of the Unseen Hand ?
They made a whole prestige class back in 3.X to let you use Telekinesis in a way that let you throw your target in the sky, since, by RAW, you can only throw your target toward another creature or object with Telekinesis, and the sky is not an object.
Are we actually sure that's an intended limitation of the spell?
Sure, the spell says "You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects.", but I take that to include a 'target square'. It simply won't do any damage to them, unless they collide with something, so isn't likely to be used in that way as often.
It should still be possible to fling someone into thin air off a bridge, or into a poison cloud, neither of which are solid objects.
Surely?
No dice.
While your familiar is a solid creature it is NOT a solid surface ( a wall, bridge, the ground etc)
Also, the druids local 101 is going to protest this, seeing as how the familiar would take the same damage.
So the familiar wouldn't take any damage then? An the druids wouldn't protest?
Remember the Master of the Unseen Hand ?
They made a whole prestige class back in 3.X to let you use Telekinesis in a way that let you throw your target in the sky, since, by RAW, you can only throw your target toward another creature or object with Telekinesis, and the sky is not an object.
Are we actually sure that's an intended limitation of the spell?
Sure, the spell says "You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects.", but I take that to include a 'target square'. It simply won't do any damage to them, unless they collide with something, so isn't likely to be used in that way as often.
It should still be possible to fling someone into thin air off a bridge, or into a poison cloud, neither of which are solid objects.
Surely?
Honestly I don't know. I tought that you could do all those things before I saw the Master of the Unseen Hand's "special" ability, and now I have doubts. While I agree with you about using a solid square of the battle map (ground, wall, etc.) as a "target", I'm not sure that the empty sky could be selected as a legal "target". Does anyone have a clue about this?
Are we actually sure that's an intended limitation of the spell?
Sure, the spell says "You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects.", but I take that to include a 'target square'. It simply won't do any damage to them, unless they collide with something, so isn't likely to be used in that way as often.
It should still be possible to fling someone into thin air off a bridge, or into a poison cloud, neither of which are solid objects.
Surely?
toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects.
i read this as anything you can actually target= anything with an AC. A familiar definitely fits the bill as a target as it can be targeted.
im not sure where the familiar not being a solid SURFACE comes into play unless there's more to the spell not being mentioned?
Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell.
If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
I don't see a provision for damaging a creature by throwing it into another. They need to be thrown into a solid surface (which the bird is not)
Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).
You could consider a hurled creature as a soft object, and the familiar would lose 1 hp per 25 pounds. :)
I think the OP was saying the source of damage would come from the fall damage done to the creature that the spell was cast on. You know... what goes up must come down kind of idea.
The familiar damage would actually be done to the familiar, or atleast, that is how I read the OP.
yeah thats what i get from the poster. Telekinesis a target up into the air at your familiar up to the maximum range then let it fall to earth and take damage. It's seems legal to raw and i don't think the damage is outside a 5th level spell, seems even on the low side. OFC from the spell description you would have to make an attack role on your familiar, which wouldn't nec hit with a wizards low BAB, and just have the familiar go total defense with shield cast lol.
Air is something and therefore you can throw an object at it. It doesn't say you have to throw it at a solid object.
Air is something and therefore you can throw an object at it. It doesn't say you have to throw it at a solid object.
That's how I would like the spell to work, but I'm not sure this would by legal, by RAW. Can you really ''target'' something that you cannot see? Can you ''target'' an empty ''square'' in the sky? Since Telekinesis was designed by WotC and only slightly modified for Pathfinder, we'll never get an official answer. :(
But maybe the folk at paizo can tell us how THEIR version of Telekinesis works. :)
Assuming all other factors are met I see no reason why you could not simply use the violent thrust option to throw a a target straight up, weather or not there is a ceiling to "aim" at. The only question would be how far up a character travels. I would say 10' per caster level. It may or may not be a kill spell depending on what you're throwing, but its well in line with the power level of other 5th level spells.
Oh, and if you have to throw an enemy at your familiar the familiar really should keep an action readied in order to get out of the way. Just a thought to avoid familiar damage
To me, being able to throw it wherever I want makes more sense than having to throw it toward another object so I'd rule it as such.
Assuming all other factors are met I see no reason why you could not simply use the violent thrust option to throw a a target straight up, weather or not there is a ceiling to "aim" at. The only question would be how far up a character travels. I would say 10' per caster level. It may or may not be a kill spell depending on what you're throwing, but its well in line with the power level of other 5th level spells.
Yes, it would be 10 feet per level, as given in the spell description.
So we're talking about a spell that does 1d6 damage / level + prone on a failed will saving throw. You cannot target anything that's large or larger. Even some medium creatures could be above the weight limit. There's nothing game breaking here (it's rather weak, in fact). However, some terrain's special features (pool of lava, chasm, deep water, acid bath, etc.) can turn this spell into a limited save or die. (;
That's just creative use of your environment then. :)
That's just creative use of your environment then. :)
Yes, and given the fact that the first true save or die spells are 6th-level spells (disintegrate, flesh to stone, etc.), Telekinesis SHOULD be able to do such things.
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Are we actually sure that's an intended limitation of the spell?
It should still be possible to fling someone into thin air off a bridge, or into a poison cloud, neither of which are solid objects.
Surely?
Honestly I don't know. I thought that you could do all those things before I saw the Master of the Unseen Hand's "special" ability, and now I have doubts.
I put it down to the MotUH being a crappy PrC, myself.
"You can now do that thing you have already been doing!"
There's a lot of 'upgrades' and 'new, improved options' like that.
Feats are notorious for it, especially combat feats.
I was brought up to give the players the benefit of the doubt when they came up with a stunt, maybe they want to nail an enemy's cloak to a beam, carve their initials in their clothes. I'd ask for an ability check, or apply a to hit penalty, and the game would move on.
Now, every book of new feats limits what PCs can do, by taking basic bread and butter actions, and fencing them off from use.
"I want to push that cauldron of boiling soup over the charging orcs!"
"No way; you haven't got the Cauldron Pusher feat, from The Quintessential Combat Gourmet sourcebook."
The Master of the Unseen Hand suffered from the same "omg, can't compete with core" ideology that permeated Complete Warrior.
A random thought or two.
Look at the fly skill under collisions while flying. If your familiar gets hit, (or even takes damage from another source) he better not roll badly on his fly check, or he could drop like a rock.
Targeting is pretty well defined in the Magic section of the rules.
I don't think you can ready an action to avoid an attack. Could be prone to abuse.
It seems there are a few loopholes in the rules when it comes to using large, huge, gargantuan, etc. sized weapons and applying spell effects to them sometimes. For example, there is a cleric domain ability (war?) that allows you to animate your deity's weapon. What if you have a colossal version of it sitting in the temple? How about a few of them, and all the faithful gather round and use the ability? Or using telekinesis to throw a huge size version of some weapon that weighs 24lbs each, and does 3d10 damage? Is the spell really intended to do more then 15d6?
Would the familiar get an attack of opportunity from the opponent falling from a threatened square? (assuming its an improved familiar and not tiny) sounds like a good dose of double damage
Or even better.....preload your familiar with a touch attack spell for the Aoo.
This is precicely the type of rulebending that I encourage in my players. I used to do this with telekinesis myself before Master of the Unseen Hand came out, and I love it when players (especially new ones) come up with creative uses of spells. You can make an argument for its illegality, but it makes sense for the spell to be able to do this, and if the players start abusing it or it becomes problematic, you can usually find countermeasures (many of my games include some type of evil mastermind, and it's assumed that he either has survivors report back to him, or, barring that, that he scrys on the characters so he knows how to counter their tactics later on).
Is the spell really intended to do more then 15d6?
Sure, throw 15 greatswords. That'd be 30d6. Of course, it requires 15 attack rolls too, so it's kind of a pain. I think that's why people look for higher powered weapons like gargantuan greatswords; less attack rolls.
I just got a new idea about how to use Telekinesis in a effective way. Find an opponent who falls into the spell's weight limit and target him AND his weapon (2 different targets) with the spell's violent thrust version. Now your opponent have to make 2 saving throws : a first for himself and a second for his weapon. If he fail the first save, he'll start flying. If he fail the second save, he'll lose his weapon. If he fail both save, he'll both start flying and lose his weapon. At least, when you use Telekinesis in that way, the spell is more likely to succeed, even if it's just a partial success.
Do you think that would be a legal use of Telekinesis?
Mae
A 5-ft. square of empty space actually has an AC, an AC of 5. This appears several times within the rules.
I believe the idea behind that math is that it is base AC 10 (which everything has), -5 for having what amounts to a 0 Dexterity.
Ravingdork totally ninja'd me. ^.^
A 5-ft. square of empty space actually has an AC, an AC of 5. This appears several times within the rules.
I believe the idea behind that math is that it is base AC 10 (which everything has), -5 for having what amounts to a 0 Dexterity.
I thought it was the AC of the physical ground, since you use that AC when your throw a splash weapon at the feet of your opponents (splash weapons need to hit something hard to ''splash''). Anyway, can you tell me the several pages where it appears?
Illegal move. Gargantuan Greatswords are 64 pounds. Best you can do is Large (16 pounds, 3d6 damage).Is the spell really intended to do more then 15d6?Sure, throw 15 greatswords. That'd be 30d6. Of course, it requires 15 attack rolls too, so it's kind of a pain. I think that's why people look for higher powered weapons like gargantuan greatswords; less attack rolls.
Mithril? Or is that going a bit too far?