Director of Games
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Welcome to the final round of the Ultimate Magic playtest, looking at a revised version of the magus. This messageboard is for posting playtest observations concerning the magus. All other feedback, ideas, and concerns not based on actual play should go in the Round 3 Discussion board.
Like the previous round of playtest using the magus, I am interested primarily in the balance, playability, and clarity of this class. Update the magus in your game to this version, or introduce a new character to give it a try. Does the magus play an active role in most encounters? Does he steal the spotlight too often? Are his powers balanced with his fellow party members? Any other comments or feedback from the game table?
Make sure to post the level at which you are using the class and any relevant details about the game in which they made an appearance. Make sure to note the foes that they faced and the results of the combat.
This is the final round of playtest for this book and the playtest cycle will remain open for 2 weeks, until December 20, 2010.
I look forward to seeing your playtest feedback and comments. Remember that everyone here is on the same team, so play nice. I will see you all on the boards.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Welcome to the final round of the Ultimate Magic playtest, looking at a revised version of the magus. This messageboard is for posting playtest observations concerning the magus. All other feedback, ideas, and concerns not based on actual play should go in the Round 3 Discussion board.
Like the previous round of playtest using the magus, I am interested primarily in the balance, playability, and clarity of this class. Update the magus in your game to this version, or introduce a new character to give it a try. Does the magus play an active role in most encounters? Does he steal the spotlight too often? Are his powers balanced with his fellow party members? Any other comments or feedback from the game table?
Make sure to post the level at which you are using the class and any relevant details about the game in which they made an appearance. Make sure to note the foes that they faced and the results of the combat.
This is the final round of playtest for this book and the playtest cycle will remain open for 2 weeks, until December 20, 2010.
I look forward to seeing your playtest feedback and comments. Remember that everyone here is on the same team, so play nice. I will see you all on the boards.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I deleted a long post that I couldn't focus on any one point. I'll make some brief points.
1, much better than before from utility because of arcane pool, Pool Magic, Knowledge Pool, fixed Spellstrike, and no drawback from Spell Combat.
2, Magus Arcana still seems kinda meh. They are nice ideas, but they just don't seem to do enough. Unsure how to explain. Like Reflection at level 15 is better, but still not great.
3, low damage output. I know it's not suppose to be a fighter, but I still don't think it's even close to other combat classes. Plus with MAD (INT, CON, and STR are all needed I believe), I just don't think this class can output damage in any meaningful way.
4, spell list is kinda meh still. I dislike having so many damage spells, and not a lot of buffs. I do like having solid utility spells so the wizard doesn't have to spend on those slots. Plus with Pool Magic, the party can get that Spider Climb when they really need it. I know this is not the full spell list, but more buffs would be good. And I know Paizo doesn't want cleric buffs, but I think a few wouldn't break anything.
I still see this class as the 5th wheel that is a luxury, not a need. The lack of damage plus not enough utility still might still put this class off. Thankfully, I think the base is solid enough that people will tinker and hopefully figure out how to use this class. With those improved points I made in point 1, I think this class has possibilities of people can add more damage or more utility to magus builds.
Free previews and reciprocal tweakings are always a good thing. :)
I like the Arcane Pool. It gives flexibility, and makes it feel consistent with other classes (Ki Pool, Rage Points, etc.). It also, in my opinion, helps slightly with the MAD, as Intelligence becomes clearly more important than other abilities.
I'm never wholly satisfied with abilities to enhance weapons for a period of time. It's useful to suddenly get a Bane ability, but not terribly useful longterm in my experience. I think the ability to enhance a weapon for 24 hours wouldn't be broken, would add longterm appeal, but it would of course have to be playtested more for balance. I like the idea of a Magus just being able to have a Spell-storing Weapon any time he wants. That fits the class, to me.
With Spellstrike, I think it's a little tough because there aren't that many offensive spells with a range of touch. My assumption is that there will be a lot more with Ultimate Magus, but I wonder if there could be a Magus Arcana ability to use Arcane Pool points to utilize another spell into a touch spell. So, Fireball can be cast at a range of touch. Still just brainstorming.
I for one don't think this class needs to compete with Fighters for damage. I honestly think we as gamers get way to hung up on damage as a way of balancing classes. If that's the case: 4th Edition is the way to go. This class has a great opportunity to blend and have a lot of utility. Neat abilities, even if they don't necessarily bring a lot of damage with them will continue to win me over, and set this class apart from the others.
I found that I was short on Arcane Pool points with my magus. Although I was not playing the magus from a player's point of view... I'm hoping there will be an Extra Arcane Pool feat included. All in all I like the class from the brief time that I used it and it certainly piqued my interest in playing it as a player rather than GM. (maybe an orc isn't the best race for a magus?)
Got in some playtest last night. Based on my observations, I've got the following questions:
Does spell combat provoke attacks of opportunity?
Do spells requiring attack rolls also take penalties in spell combat?
Can a magus make a melee attack on one target and cast a spell in another direction during a full attack?
Can spellstrike be applied to unarmed strikes?
There was also some concern that heavy armor usage might be a bit overpowered. And like Irnine, I'd also like to know whether or not arcane pool will be modifiable by way of feats.
I found that I was short on Arcane Pool points with my magus. Although I was not playing the magus from a player's point of view... I'm hoping there will be an Extra Arcane Pool feat included. All in all I like the class from the brief time that I used it and it certainly piqued my interest in playing it as a player rather than GM. (maybe an orc isn't the best race for a magus?)
I had the same situation with my Magus (4th level Tiefling, 2nd Darkness).
I believe a Magus Arcana "Extra Arcane Pool" is probably coming, but this will use one of the Arcana slots and therefore already uses a character resource.
Since the class really relies on this ability for a lot of it's... well, abilities, I think it needs more than the current amoutn given for the 3rd playtest as the current amount IMO made a difference in that his (my character's) combat effectiveness over the course of a night's of adventuring dropped to sub-standard levels once he ran out, and he ran out relatively quick even though I thought I was being conservative.
This ability is a cornerstone of the class and though I LOVE the current rendition of the class itself, I think it deserves a little more love in that department.
If he were to have more Arcane Pool points, a fair possibility would be to give him points equal to 1/2 his Magus class level + DOUBLE his INT modifier.
This way he'd have a good start at low levels which would balance out in mid-levels and additions to his INT wouldn't get the point levels out of hand at later levels.
One point per level is too much IMO.
Lastly, don't take away heavy armor.
When I turn 13th level I be bonkin' heads to get me some Mithral Full Plate of Speed! :)
Cheers
I found that I was short on Arcane Pool points with my magus. Although I was not playing the magus from a player's point of view... I'm hoping there will be an Extra Arcane Pool feat included. All in all I like the class from the brief time that I used it and it certainly piqued my interest in playing it as a player rather than GM. (maybe an orc isn't the best race for a magus?)I had the same situation with my Magus (4th level Tiefling, 2nd Darkness).
I believe a Magus Arcana "Extra Arcane Pool" is probably coming, but this will use one of the Arcana slots and therefore already uses a character resource.
Since the class really relies on this ability for a lot of it's... well, abilities, I think it needs more than the current amoutn given for the 3rd playtest as the current amount IMO made a difference in that his (my character's) combat effectiveness over the course of a night's of adventuring dropped to sub-standard levels once he ran out, and he ran out relatively quick even though I thought I was being conservative.
This ability is a cornerstone of the class and though I LOVE the current rendition of the class itself, I think it deserves a little more love in that department.If he were to have more Arcane Pool points, a fair possibility would be to give him points equal to 1/2 his Magus class level + DOUBLE his INT modifier.
This way he'd have a good start at low levels which would balance out in mid-levels and additions to his INT wouldn't get the point levels out of hand at later levels.
One point per level is too much IMO.Lastly, don't take away heavy armor.
When I turn 13th level I be bonkin' heads to get me some Mithral Full Plate of Speed! :)Cheers
I don't think one per level is a lot. I think 2x Inteligence gets way more out of hand, Magic itens, tomes, Ability scores increases and such, u can (and probably will get to +12 or +14 inteligence Modifier), and that doubled is way more than 1 per level.
A 5th level magus, for example: can do 5d6 with is off hand touch spell (shocking grasp) and since it is touch, it's more than likely to hit. How is this not going to help him keep up with the fighter?
fighter hasn't really started to 'take off' at level 5.
I've got a level 9 magus, you really need to toy around with playing this character class at the higher levels. Do not get lost in the feat traps of weapon finesse and dex build magus, they are short sighted, whip is a cool idea, but isn't 'the build'. Not every magus is going to be a dervish dancer.
Try playing just a longsword magus.
20 point build:
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Int: 14
con 10
wis 10
chr 10
Make it an elf and you have
Str 16
Dex 16
Int 16
Con 8
Wis 10
Chr 10
make use of your spell strike and play around with the arcana.
It's really not that weak at all.
It is going to be a bit feat starved however so tossing one of them at weapon finesse isn't a swell idea. Burning another with whip isn't going to get you much out put either.
I don't think there is any logical, thematical, or game world reason a magus would have the whip proficiency and more that it would have the firearms proficiency.
No str magus isn't the "only way to go"
the magus has alot of flexibility, especially as it goes up.
Pool strike adds damage to your spell strike without 'casting a spell'
My 9th level magus has just recently gotten to the point of casting fireballs and lightening bolts.
when you have a dex character, especially at low level, the problems experienced with the hit point/AC thing becomes apparent because you are trying to wade in and use your weapon finesse, as that only applies to melee weapons.
If you have a decent dex, depending on the encounter, use your bow.
at low levels you arent going to be much behind a 'full archer' because he hasn't gotten his goodies yet.
Thats why I say spread the dex and str out, and dont waste a feat on weapon finesse thats only good in melee.
Let me find my magus, i want to see what his AC is.
ok here's the whole SS adventuring party:
Witch/druid AC 20, HP 53
GunMage (homebrew gunslinger alchemist hybrid) ac 21, hp 55
Ronin AC 28 (with shield) AC 23 (no shield) Hp 63
Magus AC 22 (no spell) AC 26 (with spell shield) hp 53
Rage Prophet AC 17 Hp 71 (103 if raging)
So the magus doesn't even have a bad ac or hp for this group (we dont optimize builds either tho and we dont have a straight figher, so...)
My magus does have a 8 con, but I took toughness as a feat (I think that should have a con minimum of 12, seems wrong to be taken by an untough character) and my preferred class bonus is 1 hp.
So if im dying, the con definitely makes it tough, or I get -1 fort save, everything else is fine.
Generally I do the most damage in the party in most situations, im pretty much online with the rage prophet and the ronin.
Thanks for posting. I do see what you mean about spreading dex and str, and, in fact, that's more or less what I've done, although I took weapon finesse. I've been trying to decide where to go form here, which is why I posted.
Do I understand correctly that you posted for a level 9ish party? You must not be playing PathFinder Society mods. No offense, but imo those would eat your party for lunch. This weekend I played a level 5/6 mod with a level 6 paladin with ac 25. The fighter and the archer each had ac 31 iirc. They were hitting for 30-40 per round. I didn't do much until we got to the boss, who was evil, and then I smited it and smacked it down hard. Monsters were doing roughly 30-40 damage per round. It was a tough mod, but we made it through. At level 9 I would expect the fighter's ac to be around 40 and things we would face would do 40-50 points of damage per round to a party with AC 30+. Light armor spellcasters have got to have good tanks out in front or they die. I frequently see this with my level 10 cleric, too. YMMV. Thanks for the discussion. It has been very interesting and helpful.
Well I dunno about those ACs you are talking about. When I played a straight up fighter in second darkness I topped out around 43 AC at 13th level (I could have had better magic items, not like I had a +5 in everything) and that was back when some of the feats and fighter abilities were different (like armor training) and made your AC better than current rules do.
We aren't a min max type of gaming group, basically BECAUSE of second darkness experiences our gaming group got too powerful and we got bored.
I've never seen anything in PS play.
Of our entire group, only the rage prophet and the ronin wear more than light armor.
Rage prophet has +1 breastplate, Ronin has masterwork plate.
We don't have anything we have not found during the Serpent's Skull adventure path as we havent been anywhere civilized since Eleder and we bought some potions and a +1 chain shirt and a +3 shield when we were there.
Everything else has been found.
For a 9th level fighter to have a 40 AC, he'd need +2 full plate (mithral) a 14 dex a +3 shield a +3 ring of protection, an amulet of nat armor +3 and some shield feats to bring it up there.
Thats some crazy christmas tree loot.
I'd like to see one of those PS modules tho... Id like to see how our group does in these encounters. There could be a massive difference between tactics too, wading in toe to toe is going to 'require' more AC.
Care to recommend a module you know of, that I can buy that is notoriously tough, that I could buy? that way we can compare notes apples to apples.
I wouldnt mind in class SR. I could ditch heavy armor in favor of that.
I think the wizard players out there would cry about it tho.
I looked at my PC group last night. The witch/druid is 8th, the gun mage is 9th but the rest of us are 7th!! not 9th, I was looking at the character sheet from afar and thought it said 9th but it is 7th.
So the above stats are correct, just the levels aren't.
Well don't cast a range touch spell while being threatened unless you are going to use "close range" arcana and touch somebody with it.
I've had an AC of 20 on 1st level fighters before.
It's easy really. Armor: Chainmail (6) Shield (2) Dex 14 (2)
you might have to borrow money from another player or pool group money at first but we find we are more survivable when we do that, because goblins cant really hit the fighter.
We've done that for a cleric before too.
a 5th level paladin with a 14 dex could say +1 breastplate, +2 shield, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of nat armor, Gloves of dex +2, +1 sword and shield focus as a feat and have 27 AC, whats that 12,000 gold of stuff or so? We dont play like that, you would have to buy alot of that stuff as it would be so completely unlikely to find it all by that level.
In PS play you are working for the pathfinders and they have all sorts of resources so those goober items dripping off every slot you have available would both be reasonable and make sense, is that too much for a 5th level is PS tho?
Let me see 5th level archer 19 dex is +5, +1 studded leather is 4, Ring or protection +1, dodge as a feat +1,... i have no idea how they are getting a 30 AC as an archer
Let me try it this way : Dex 19, Mithral shirt +2, belt of dex +2 = 22 AC, yeah, I dont see where they are going to get 8 more AC from at 5th level. Archers don't use shields. they generally dont need as much Ac tho because they stay out of the melee if they can.
if they get a shield spell, and a shield of faith and a ring of protection and the dodge feat they could get 30 AC temporarily, but thats through buffs that are limited and they cant do to themselves.
I think the group you are playing with is A) power gaming and B) maybe a little bit of cheating or C) you just think they have ACs that high because they are getting lucky and not getting hit as much as you.
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Hi
I used to play a lot of Elf Ftr/Mages from the Elf book in AD&D 2nd Ed. Magus reminds me of those happy days.
I love the look & feel of Magus, not quite a full wizard, not quite a full fighter. Improving the spell arcana lists would be a good idea.
I've got two Magii in PFS, a Dwarf just made 3rd level, and a halfling rogue 1 just went Magus. The first just average stats, uses Bastard Sword (for flavour), the halfling's dex based.
It's nice to be able to use a wand of shield, boost you weapon, then make an attack, all in the first round of combat. May not be a pure fighter, but it does what it does very good.
Thanks
Paul H