Wow, lots of good ones here. But I'll have to +1 the Wealth by Level rules, and the privileged assumptions that if you don't give the PCs exactly what they wanted in treasure you're doing things wrong.
my biggest peev is that tou can have rule that is super involved with its general mechanics but get dealt with in afearly breaf dicussen. while something like quikdraw or the whole light messing with darkvision thing. can sap litteraly hours out of a game session.
If nothing else, reading this thread has pointed out some pitfalls I should square away with my players before we game. Having it on paper will bypass the sap hopefully and let the game progress.
Wow, lots of good ones here. But I'll have to +1 the Wealth by Level rules, and the privileged assumptions that if you don't give the PCs exactly what they wanted in treasure you're doing things wrong.
It burns me that every monk playing is "entitled" to an Amulet of Mighty Fists. I can understand the desire to have this, but expecting it to be in the loot pile the moment a magic weapon shows up is a bit of a reach. :p I guess this goes into the whole christmas tree / big six argument however... there are plenty of threads for that though.
How often are magic items bought at stores in fantasy stories? Answer: rarely, if ever. Reason: magic shops selling these types of items aren't coolIn this case I'll go with the rule of cool: magic swords are cool, spreadsheets & shopkeepers isn't cool.
I agree with you. There are mechanics for auto-improving weapons (allowing heirlooms to match character levels and such), and any number of ways to handle it.
Call me lazy, but I get tired of tracking treasure and all the haggling that arises at higher levels. Once they can teleport, it's easy enough to take a break and go to a large enough city, where they can roleplay making contacts with the rare people who can get them what they want.
There are high level casters and master craftsmen who can make/acquire what they want, and given the amount of money changing hands, it seems a lock that somebody is willing to fill the "18th level party magic items" niche, and has the means of trading gold for 25,000 gp diamonds and such. They're not likely to operate out of a storefront "Ye olde magick shoppe." Even then, the characters might have to wait for an item to be made, and come back for it after concluding another adventure.
It's exciting to have characters find what they want in treasure hordes, and some players like it that way (Finally! A portable hole! Dibs!). Others just want to get what they want without a lot of drama. There's no right or wrong way to play it, really.
Actually, I'm starting to wonder if I have some kind of misconception, because ever since the Core Rulebook came out, I still see discussions about wealth per level and what should be available, but the actual rules seem to indicate that if its past 16,000 gp, you are probably going to have to find it or make it yourself, according to the new settlement rules.
Actually, I'm starting to wonder if I have some kind of misconception, because ever since the Core Rulebook came out, I still see discussions about wealth per level and what should be available, but the actual rules seem to indicate that if its past 16,000 gp, you are probably going to have to find it or make it yourself, according to the new settlement rules.
16,000gp limit? Settlement rules?
Where might I find those?
@ lillith:
I've found it easy to tie rewards into story. Save the princess, and the grateful queen commissions an item for each of you. Over time, you can befriend the court wizard. He, in turn, knows other people, etc.
As your fame spreads, certain item-makers might like the cache that comes with saying you deal with them (a medieval form of endorsement advertising, you might say ;)).
I sometimes decide I don't need a certain feat, spell, what have you, because I can get it from an item, saving the feat/slot for something else I want. I can remember games where the party HAD to take crafting feats to have nice things.
That's fine, if they want to, but at high levels, their fame/infamy and connections should be enough to give the players plenty of choices. They'll eventually have the cash and prestige to get a real Picasso, not just a nice print! XD
Actually, I'm starting to wonder if I have some kind of misconception, because ever since the Core Rulebook came out, I still see discussions about wealth per level and what should be available, but the actual rules seem to indicate that if its past 16,000 gp, you are probably going to have to find it or make it yourself, according to the new settlement rules.
16,000gp limit? Settlement rules?
Where might I find those?
GMG, pg 205.
Of course, is goes on to give settlement qualities which can further increase the base value. Taken together, you can easily double this, but if you do use these rules, it's still difficult to find items which would cost more than 32,000gp.
Anything up to 32,000gp would be available 75% of the time and there would be a smattering of higher value items as determined by the table on page 207.
Yeah, the actual settlement rules are found in the GameMastery Guide, but the base gp buying limits for cities are already on page 461 of the Core Rulebook sets the normal limit at 16,000 gp, with the exception of some randomly rolled medium and major items.
Actually, I'm starting to wonder if I have some kind of misconception, because ever since the Core Rulebook came out, I still see discussions about wealth per level and what should be available, but the actual rules seem to indicate that if its past 16,000 gp, you are probably going to have to find it or make it yourself, according to the new settlement rules.
16,000gp limit? Settlement rules?
Where might I find those?
GMG, pg 205.
Of course, is goes on to give settlement qualities which can further increase the base value. Taken together, you can easily double this, but if you do use these rules, it's still difficult to find items which would cost more than 32,000gp.
Anything up to 32,000gp would be available 75% of the time and there would be a smattering of higher value items as determined by the table on page 207.
And for those of us without the Core rulebook right in front of us, here's the PRD link.
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One problum is that magic iteams are overdone.This is in the sence that they are not dime a dozen hardwear stor hammer and nails kind of things. Its always cool to to find or captur a specel peace of gear. but in general magic iteams are artifacts, herlumes and custome made gear that that are as much a part of a charaters personal legand as the feats or spells they posses.
Shops shouldnt just happen to have a plus 1 sword of demonic smite or a holy scroll of bombbastic beatdown laying around waiting for the first person to walk in with enough gold. That should be reserved for the" specel thing I have in the back and have been saving just in case" senaerio.
One problum is that magic iteams are overdone.This is in the sence that they are not dime a dozen hardwear stor hammer and nails kind of things. Its always cool to to find or captur a specel peace of gear. but in general magic iteams are artifacts, herlumes and custome made gear that that are as much a part of a charaters personal legand as the feats or spells they posses.
Shops shouldnt just happen to have a plus 1 sword of demonic smite or a holy scroll of bombbastic beatdown laying around waiting for the first person to walk in with enough gold. That should be reserved for the" specel thing I have in the back and have been saving just in case" senaerio.
Perhaps... but in the real world we have things like Ebay, where precious heirlooms, rare and expensive items, and potentially hazardous equipment can be purchased by anyone with the money to pay.
Personally, I think Golarion should have a chain of magical pawn shops, headquartered in Absalom. PCs simply look through the menu of items available at any of their branches, order an item, and it is teleported there through conjuration circles. This service would, of course, be only for large cities, but it would provide a measure of ecological validity to the game world.
Perhaps... but in the real world we have things like Ebay, where precious heirlooms, rare and expensive items, and potentially hazardous equipment can be purchased by anyone with the money to pay.Personally, I think Golarion should have a chain of magical pawn shops, headquartered in Absalom. PCs simply look through the menu of items available at any of their branches, order an item, and it is teleported there through conjuration circles. This service would, of course, be only for large cities, but it would provide a measure of ecological validity to the game world.
I actually have that in my game world. There's two big trading houses. Enterium Ltd., and the House of Horsanik. Both have vast trading routes. Both houses have massive trading stores in major cities (100,000 plus people or larger cities). Imagine a big brick shaped building, 4 stories tall. As you enter, you leave all weapons in a bin, all magic users get a bracelet to wear that reacts to magic being cast. Then, you can walk around the store and shop for all their oddities. They only handle high end stuff in these places (1000gp+ items).
If they don't have what you want, they'll take your name and request, and for a small fee (100gp) they'll send out a call to any other cities to see if any other stores have it. If they do, they'll work out immediate purchase and delivery options. If not, they'll offer to find it for you for 10% of the purchase price as a finder's fee. If they can't find it, they'll guarantee to find someone to make it. If they fail, they give you a refund +5%.
People who get on and claim Class X is brokenly stupid over powered, but then prove they (A) Didn't understand the rules for Class X, or (B) are using 3rd party products or (C) are using 3.5 material or (D) are using house rules for the class or (E) all of the above, and then get pissy when you point out that they are in error because of A through E.
People who, when you comment on an issue you have with a class (after having read said class, and you point out logical inconsistencies between the class and the rest of the rules), then flame you and tell you to go play something else if you don't like the rules as written.
People who place Paizo on a pedestal and attack anyone that makes a negative comment about any Paizo rule/decision.
People who bash every decision made by Paizo, and constantly complain that everything they do is bogus.
I guess, it's people who go to extremes, in either the game or talking about it.
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- That Spring Attack and Vital Strike (or most any other outlawed mobility combo) would somehow be broken if allowed to work together.
Even with the new errata, Spring Attack and Vital Strike (and the Vital Strike feat chain) work together fine. Vital Strike isn't a standard action; basically, any time you can attack you can Vital Strike. The only time you would be making a decision to not use Vital Strike is if you had a chance to use the full attack action with iterative attacks.
So charging and Vital Strike work together, Spring Attack and Vital Strike work together, etc. Nothing that says it doesn't.
Anyone misinterpreting this is experiencing a misconception about the rules and makes me want to scream.
- That Spring Attack and Vital Strike (or most any other outlawed mobility combo) would somehow be broken if allowed to work together.Even with the new errata, Spring Attack and Vital Strike (and the Vital Strike feat chain) work together fine. Vital Strike isn't a standard action; basically, any time you can attack you can Vital Strike. The only time you would be making a decision to not use Vital Strike is if you had a chance to use the full attack action with iterative attacks.
So charging and Vital Strike work together, Spring Attack and Vital Strike work together, etc. Nothing that says it doesn't.
Anyone misinterpreting this is experiencing a misconception about the rules and makes me want to scream.
Oh I totally agree. Sadly the game designers have clarified time and time again that it is their intent (and even the RAW) that attack action = standard action made to make an attack.
So, by the official ruling, they cannot ever be combined.
I've fought against it tooth and nail for 2 years to no avail. Makes me want to scream too.
Isn't this thread supposed to be about rules misconceptions and NOT about player/poster behavior?
It seems a lot of the responses aren't about the rules at all, but about the types of people that the poster is annoyed with.
That's off-topic my friends. :P
I find it about as kewl as l33t sp33k. In other words, it's pretentious and irritating.
Maybe even less than optimal...
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How often are magic items bought at stores in fantasy stories? Answer: rarely, if ever. Reason: magic shops selling these types of items aren't coolIn this case I'll go with the rule of cool: magic swords are cool, spreadsheets & shopkeepers isn't cool.
I find the misconception that pathfinder is just 'roleplaying a fantasy novel' can be irritating.
Magic Item purchase is RAW. Blocking players access to magic items because of your particular conception of pseudo-medieval/renaissance economics is not RAW.
If you want to reward your players another way then that's fine with me but any GM who gives his players chests full of gold pieces and then stops them from buying cool magic items with the cash is failing to obey the rule of cool.
Make it interesting, with cool roleplay scenarios and interesting shopkeepers? Hell, yeah! Use magic item shopping as a way to spin off into side-quests? Hell, yeah! Deny your players a chance to spend their treasure on something cool which they want? Hell, no! (unless you're doing it to lead into more cool adventures).
As the title says, what misconceptions make you want to scream?
I had a GM who ran Palladium Fantasy for a long time who thought that you would take more electrical damage from wearing full plate armor.
He also made modifications to the game that REQUIRED munchkining in order to not fall behind and die in every encounter.
And he kept handing out weapons that did more and more damage. I was given an axe that did 5D20 damage. and the average person would have like 45-120 hit points total.
If he hadn't built the power creep so high, and had such a skewed way of looking at things, the game wouldnt require us to NEED an axe of 5D20 damage.
It's times like this that help me feel grounded as a GM
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Meant to cater to a world where level determines wealth and success and most people are level one.
-The assumption that "most people are level one".
I don't see any reason that needs to be the case, and seen no proof for it by publishers. The adventures scale up with the PCs, so why wouldn't there be people of all power levels in the world?
I'd expect an experienced smith to be around level 4 or 5, a compedent and semi-experienced grunt soldier to be around level 6 or 7, and military commanders to be at least level 10.
In a city with 200,000 people I'd expect there to be a at least 4 or 5 level 20s.
[Savage Species] was either the last 3.0 product or the first 3.5 one. It was certainly written with 3.5 in mind.
Savage species was the last 3.0 book. With the release of 3.5, was a Savage Species update that made very few changes to update it to the new version of the rules.
"Yep, that's an Orc. Kill it."Does that make the majority of adventurers racist, you think?
Several of my players' characters will kill an orc, goblin, whatever for being what it is, regardless of its actual alignment.
Drives me nuts too. And yes, that's racism. I don't care if they play racist characters so long as they don't think it's not racist.
My party slaughtered an settlement of orcs they came across in the middle of the night, found it strangely easy how they were so poorly armed. And thought nothing of the large proportion of women.
Then they met an angry group of orcs in fullplate who were enraged at the fact that they just came home to a bunch of humans who had slaughtered their wives and children.
As I mentioned above, the orcs were not level one. four or 5 level 6s, some 7-9, and the leader was level 12.
The PCs were level 7 or 8.
My class sucks, so I want a fix, so I interpret a rules line in my favor when alternate interpretations are valid and reject any concept my interpretation isn't RAW ("Brass Knuckles on a Monk" I'm looking at you)
APG page 177?
The way the monk's written though, it can be argued that you can get magical enhancement on your unarmed attacks, too. (treated as manufactured weapons for the purpose of magic.)
- I'd allow it.
- I've seen other GM's allow it.
- Putting the wraith in a chokehold for the wizard to blast because you paid for ghost touch enchantment on your unarmed attacks is awesome.
Magic Item purchase is RAW.
Magic items available for purchase aren't RAW because those rules are guidelines. The rules even call them guidelines, and go so far as to say magic items might not be available for sale at all if that's the way the GM has the campaign set up.
...any GM who gives his players chests full of gold pieces and then stops them from buying cool magic items with the cash is failing to obey the rule of cool.
Shopping isn't cool. It's tedious.
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People who think that Original Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that Holmes Basic Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that B/X Basic Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that BECMI Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that Rules Cyclopedia Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that 1E Advanced Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that 2E Advanced Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that 3.0 Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that 4E Dungeons & Dragons isn't D&D.
People who think that Pathfinder RPG is D&D.
People who think that any RPG is D&D.
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Magic items available for purchase aren't RAW because those rules are guidelines. The rules even call them guidelines, and go so far as to say magic items might not be available for sale at all if that's the way the GM has the campaign set up.
[snick snack]
Shopping isn't cool. It's tedious.
+18 grillion
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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My class sucks, so I want a fix, so I interpret a rules line in my favor when alternate interpretations are valid and reject any concept my interpretation isn't RAW ("Brass Knuckles on a Monk" I'm looking at you)APG page 177?
The way the monk's written though, it can be argued that you can get magical enhancement on your unarmed attacks, too. (treated as manufactured weapons for the purpose of magic.)
- I'd allow it.
- I've seen other GM's allow it.
- Putting the wraith in a chokehold for the wizard to blast because you paid for ghost touch enchantment on your unarmed attacks is awesome.
You clearly missed my point, because you argued with me that Brass Knuckles does anything to your Unarmed Strike weapon. There are two views of the RAW on this, one that Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike does nothing to a Brass Knuckle using Monk and the second that he gets a +1 to his Bras Knuckles attacks. If you don't see the two views and accept they are both RAW, then you are demonstrating the part that makes me scream.
People who think that Pathfinder RPG is D&D.
People who think that any RPG is D&D.
You definitely make me scream. Pathfinder is D&D, all TSR/WotC versions are still D&D, and nothing else is D&D.
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You definitely make me scream. Pathfinder is D&D, all TSR/WotC versions are still D&D, and nothing else is D&D.People who think that Pathfinder RPG is D&D.
People who think that any RPG is D&D.
Sword & Wizardry?
Lamentations of the Flame Princess: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing?Spellcraft & Swordplay?
Labyrinth Lord?
OSRIC?
Myth & Magic?
Dark Dungeons?
Basic Fantasy RPG?
+18 grillionHow many hip-hop singers is that?
"Fitty", I think.
Claims of magic items are rare flies out of the window when the party comes to the metropolis carrying 50 +1 longswords.
Claims of magic items are rare flies out of the window when the party comes to the metropolis carrying 50 +1 longswords.
Agreed, but who GAVE them to you? (Gave in the sense of your party ended up with them, not gave as a gift or anything). Just because your DM is unimaginative doesn't mean the game is borked.
Mind you, I have made that mistake as a DM before, and taken advantage of it as a player a couple times too. Since then? The party often runs across a lot of "usable only by X race/Y class/Z alignment" gear. IMO, if there IS in fact an evil genius behind this whole thing, it's be pretty dumb of him NOT to make his minions gear only they could use. Kind of like the Fingerprint locks on guns :)
Claims of magic items are rare flies out of the window when the party comes to the metropolis carrying 50 +1 longswords.Why would the party be coming to the metropolis carrying 50 +1 longswords?
I mean, why would the GM have them fighting fifty creatures carrying fifty +1 longswords instead of 50 masterwork longswords? Then again, why would the GM have them fighting 50 masterwork longswords instead of just 50 tougher creatures?
Verisimilitude.
NPCs above a certain level are going to have gear, in some cases quite a lot of gear. Masterwork and exotic materials can cover some of the range but simply put if you use a large number of mid-level NPCs in your games the PCs are going to end up with a bunch of extra weapons, stat boosters, cloaks of resistance, etc.
Another option is to not use CR appropriate NPCs but honestly other than the relative complexity of humanoid NPCs I don't think that's a good system.
I guess you could go with the monsters scale in power relative to the PCs but that's very unsatisfying if you play in a sandbox style game.
Magic Item purchase is RAW. Blocking players access to magic items because of your particular conception of pseudo-medieval/renaissance economics is not RAW.
Uh ? I've read the rules and haven't found where it is written that PC can find everything they want anywhere...
Can you tell me where you find this in the book(s) ? :)
Can you explain how you are using the term "sandbox style game" in this sentence?
I use the "scale up the monsters" approach myself, but I can see where Vuron is coming from, ie "Wait, the map said there was an orc tibe here. We planned this side trip to take out some piddly orc tribe, and now it's a tribe of 'Large, one could say GIANT orcs. Kind of dumb too'? Suddnely they are all level appropriate challenges? Did someone re-boot the world after that last save point?"
Which leads to the next question- if the raid on the orc village wasn't going to be a challenge, why would the PCs want to do it? If the PCs want to get better stuff, they have to whack tougher opponents.