Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three
metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to
cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one
metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its
level or casting time, as long as the total modified level
of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In
addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply
a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as
Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so
on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to
this spell.
Boo, I just realized its only one metamagic at a time, so there goes my maximized, empowered, quickened magic missile idea lol (just as I pasted this I realized it, oh wells), it still looks solid to me, it allows you to use the super expensive slot hog quickened spell every round (provided you still have slots to spare). Anyways, a question, the feat says that the modified spell cannot use a spell slot higher than nine, but does not mention anything about not having enough slots to cast it without it (basically a cleric/wizard can use it on a favorite level 8 spell right away, that looks awesome to me). What are your thoughts/opinions/experiences with that feat?
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Anyways, a question, the feat says that the modified spell cannot use a spell slot higher than nine, but does not mention anything about not having enough slots to cast it without it (basically a cleric/wizard can use it on a favorite level 8 spell right away, that looks awesome to me). What are your thoughts/opinions/experiences with that feat?
The description says:
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast.
Perhaps you can quibble over what constitutes having "the ability to cast" something, but IMO that's fairly clear.
I took this feat on my Mystic Theurge with the spell Chain Lightning. It works great as a Cold Elemental Sorceress with the Irrisen Icemage feat. I apply it with the Maximize Spell feat which brings the total spell level up to 9 but with the feat it just uses its normal 6th level spell slot. It works really really nice cause I can then cast that spell 5 times a day (with my super high Cha). Because of my multitude of feats at my current level (16) it does a total of 102 damage every hit with the main target needing a saving throw of 27 and all other targets needing a save of 25. it makes me hideously overpowered as long as I'm not fighting anything immune to cold or lightning. The one downside of the feat is that if I am forced to cast Chain Lightning as an actual lightning spell instead of changing it to cold, I suffer a -2 pentalty to my caster level because Spell Perfection doubles modifiers from feats (Irrisen Ice-Mage adds 1 to your caster level of all spells with the cold descriptor, -1 to any spell with another energy type).
Next level I think I'm going to take the feat again but apply it to the Fireball spell. I'd still still with maximize since I don't have Quicken. It would allow me to cast 8 maximized fireballs a day or more if I sacrifice higher level spell slots. I think at level 19 (if I get there), I may take Quicken Spell so I can cast a quickened fireball and then do a maximized chain lightning all without sacrificing higher level spell slots.
This feat is particularly useful as a Mystic Theurge just because of the sheer number of spells I get and the fact that I can prepare 1-5th level spells in either class as long as I want to waste a higher level spell slot, which works well with a dps cleric rather than a buffing/healing cleric.
If nothing else, taking Maximize spell and Spell Perfection for any 6th level spell is completely worth it. I'm tempted to take it for Disintegrate just cause it would make it insanely powerful, but my character is focused on Ice and I would rather have Chain Lightning (Ice) as pretty much my exclusive 6th spell spell.
Plus, you can supplement this ability with Metamagic Rods. I like having a Quickened Rod on hand in a Spell Storing Glove just so I can dish out tons of extra damage in a short period of time if it's needed.
Spell Perfection rocks!
Since you seem so keen on discussing Spell Perfection, I suppose I might as well indulge you. ;)
First off, I think you can only take Spell Perfection once. Maybe your GM says otherwise, but I just thought I'd let you know. :3
I, sadly haven't had the experience of using it. I do have a build in the back of my mind though, which I'm prepared to modify based upon whatever new stuff comes with Ultimate Magic.
My current plan is to go for a wizard build with Spell Perfection (Fireball). I'll also be taking Magical Lineage (Fireball), Lore Seeker (Fireball + 2 more spells), Preferred Spell (Fireball), and then other things like Spell Focus (Evocation) and a bunch of metamagic. He'll be an Elf Evoker with the Admixture Subschool, which will allow me to change the element of my fireball to suit the situation. (Fire resistance/immunity is fairly common)
The nice thing about Preferred Spell is that I'll never have to prepare a Fireball, I can just spontaneously use it whenever it suits me. So I'll prepare battlefield control spells and other stuff with my slots and use my veritable toolbox of fireball variants when nothing else seems appropriate. I'll be able to adjust my fireballs using Lingering Spell and Dazing Spell to make my fireballs serve other purposes.
Maybe this won't work out quite as well as it does in my mind, but I think its a cool concept: having a signature spell that you can do better than anyone else. :D
A player of mine (diviner Wizard) uses the following combination.
Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus + Persistent Spells + Spell Perfection (Flesh to Stone).
Scary, but mainly because of Persistent Spells metamagic feat.
I think is quite cool used with elemental focus, spell focus evocation and some draconic bloodilne related (element-wise) to the chosen spell. Not as powerful as above, but fun (never tried this one, only the former).
I'd been keen to see a list of spell + metamagic feat combos people use/would use with Preferred Spell and Spell Perfection.
Something like Flesh to Stone with Persistent Spell seems pretty amazing.
I'd been thinking of using some kind of utility spell + Quicken; something that would be desired frequently enough to warrant being able to cast it several times per day. Ideas?
Quicken + Heal is probably another good one for those clerics who want to get some healing in during combat.
I like mass suggestion with spell perfection and persistent spell =)
I'd been keen to see a list of spell + metamagic feat combos people use/would use with Preferred Spell and Spell Perfection.
Something like Flesh to Stone with Persistent Spell seems pretty amazing.
I'd been thinking of using some kind of utility spell + Quicken; something that would be desired frequently enough to warrant being able to cast it several times per day. Ideas?
I asked myself the same question and much to my chagrin, the only answer I could come up with was fireball. >.< I don't think there is another spell out there which you can apply a wider variety of metamagic to. I think the only ones you can't use are... Reach (already long range) and Bouncing. Its also great in that its a third level spell, so you can apply metamagic with lesser rods, but also, being a third level spell, its high enough to make dazing spell quite relevant.
Anyway, I don't think I could successfully sell fireball as the best "signature spell" to anyone. (My nickname for a spell you select with Preferred Spell, Spell Perfection, Magical Lineage, etc.) I really hope there is something better! But for now, fireball is calling my name. D:
My 15th-level half-orc sorcerer/dragon disciple LOVES his perfected fireball. Deals 300+ fire damage to his enemies each round if I remember correctly.
My 15th-level half-orc sorcerer/dragon disciple LOVES his perfected fireball. Deals 300+ fire damage to his enemies each round if I remember correctly.
Empowered, intensified and maximized fireball would do 157 points for a draconic bloodline sorcerer. If you add in a quickened empowered intensified fireball, that would be 20d6+20.
247 points would be the average fireball damage for a round using a 5th and 6th lvl slot.
Pretty impressive. I might try this combination with my orc bloodline sorcerer.
There's definitely a trade off though. A fireball would be three lower on the save than Chain Lightning. It is less precise when hitting. You can more accurately use a Chain Lightning without using Selective Spell.
Damage cap is 140 for intensified, empowered, and maximized fireball.
Damage cap for an empowered chain lightning is 30d6 at lvl 20 for 190 points for an evocation sorcerer.
So at lvl 20 fireball max:
Standard action: 140
Quickened: 20d6+20 140
280 maximum damage with three lower save and no precision.
Chain Lightning from evoker
Standard empowered: 30d6+10 190
Quickened: 20d6+8 128
318 maximum damage with three higher save and much greater precision.
I have to think of another feat to use with the standard empowered chain lightning. with my magical lineage I have 2 levels to work for a metamagic feat. I could heighten it. But maybe there is something better.
My 15th-level half-orc sorcerer/dragon disciple LOVES his perfected fireball. Deals 300+ fire damage to his enemies each round if I remember correctly.Empowered, intensified and maximized fireball would do 157 points for a draconic bloodline sorcerer. If you add in a quickened empowered intensified fireball, that would be 20d6+20.
247 points would be the average fireball damage for a round using a 5th and 6th lvl slot.
Pretty impressive. I might try this combination with my orc bloodline sorcerer.
There's definitely a trade off though. A fireball would be three lower on the save than Chain Lightning. It is less precise when hitting. You can more accurately use a Chain Lightning without using Selective Spell.
Damage cap is 140 for intensified, empowered, and maximized fireball.
Damage cap for an empowered chain lightning is 30d6 at lvl 20 for 190 points for an evocation sorcerer.
So at lvl 20 fireball max:
Standard action: 140
Quickened: 20d6+20 140
280 maximum damage with three lower save and no precision.Chain Lightning from evoker
Standard empowered: 30d6+10 190
Quickened: 20d6+8 128
318 maximum damage with three higher save and much greater precision.I have to think of another feat to use with the standard empowered chain lightning. with my magical lineage I have 2 levels to work for a metamagic feat. I could heighten it. But maybe there is something better.
Did you include the half-orc's favored class sorcerer bonus (1/2 HD to spell's fire damage) as well as the +1 damage per damage die of the spell?
You can also tack on metamagic rods for even more fun (since they're free their cost doesn't apply towards the 9th-level limit).
Though fireball isn't as precise or as difficult to overcome as chain lightning, it (and lightning bolt if you prefer) are much lower level, which means you can spam it more times per day.
How many slots do you have for chain lighting? 5? 6?
I have 30+ for my fireballs, many of which will be highly modified. :D
In the end, both choices have a place in the game, which is as it should be.
I'd use dazing spell anyway. Daze the enemy 3 rounds means victory.
I'd use dazing spell anyway. Daze the enemy 3 rounds means victory.
Not as good as it sounds. It uses up a slot 3 levels higher, but uses the spell's original DC so no matter what you do it's going to be relatively low.
In other words, unless you get lucky, only the enemies who don't matter in the first place are going to fail that save (which is six class levels behind that of your highest level spells).
I'd use dazing spell anyway. Daze the enemy 3 rounds means victory.Not as good as it sounds. It uses up a slot 3 levels higher, but uses the spell's original DC so no matter what you do it's going to be relatively low.
In other words, unless you get lucky, only the enemies who don't matter in the first place are going to fail that save (which is six class levels behind that of your highest level spells).
I see your point. but enervation, witches and other debuffing stuff can lower the saves.
Daze is suggested to be a 1 round only in the conditions list. throw in rods and stuff go crazy.
I have a silly contradiction, many people around here keep saying that blasting stuff is sub-par with the plethora of field control spells available and stuff, but I used to play Neverwinter Nights, and first rolled a blasty wizard, then I rolled up a more control/buff wizard, needless to say I had way way way much more fun blasting stuff with fireballs and the like rather than buffing and crowd controlling, blasting spells are so flashy XD.
I have a silly contradiction, many people around here keep saying that blasting stuff is sub-par with the plethora of field control spells available and stuff, but I used to play Neverwinter Nights, and first rolled a blasty wizard, then I rolled up a more control/buff wizard, needless to say I had way way way much more fun blasting stuff with fireballs and the like rather than buffing and crowd controlling, blasting spells are so flashy XD.
Blasting is not as efficient as using other spells. They were not saying that blasting does not work, only that it requires more resources to be as useful. Look at all the spell dedicated this spell perfection idea. You can kick the bad guy's butt with a less focused caster, with much less dedication to one spell. You also don't have to worry about the bad guys locking onto your favorite spell and shutting it down + what Nigrescence said.
My 15th-level half-orc sorcerer/dragon disciple LOVES his perfected fireball. Deals 300+ fire damage to his enemies each round if I remember correctly.Empowered, intensified and maximized fireball would do 157 points for a draconic bloodline sorcerer. If you add in a quickened empowered intensified fireball, that would be 20d6+20.
247 points would be the average fireball damage for a round using a 5th and 6th lvl slot.
Pretty impressive. I might try this combination with my orc bloodline sorcerer.
There's definitely a trade off though. A fireball would be three lower on the save than Chain Lightning. It is less precise when hitting. You can more accurately use a Chain Lightning without using Selective Spell.
Damage cap is 140 for intensified, empowered, and maximized fireball.
Damage cap for an empowered chain lightning is 30d6 at lvl 20 for 190 points for an evocation sorcerer.
So at lvl 20 fireball max:
Standard action: 140
Quickened: 20d6+20 140
280 maximum damage with three lower save and no precision.Chain Lightning from evoker
Standard empowered: 30d6+10 190
Quickened: 20d6+8 128
318 maximum damage with three higher save and much greater precision.I have to think of another feat to use with the standard empowered chain lightning. with my magical lineage I have 2 levels to work for a metamagic feat. I could heighten it. But maybe there is something better.
Did you include the half-orc's favored class sorcerer bonus (1/2 HD to spell's fire damage) as well as the +1 damage per damage die of the spell?
You can also tack on metamagic rods for even more fun (since they're free their cost doesn't apply towards the 9th-level limit).
Though fireball isn't as precise or as difficult to overcome as chain lightning, it (and lightning bolt if you prefer) are much lower level, which means you can spam it more times per day.
How many slots do you have for chain lighting? 5? 6?
I have 30+ for my fireballs,...
You're still using lvl 5 and 6 slots for your fireball. Only one metamagic feat is reduced. So you can use 5, 6, 7,8, and 9th lvl slots.
I can use 6,7,8, and 9 slots for empowered and quickened. So you have about 7 or 8 more uses a day. Both have so many, doubtful they get used up. I have Preferred spell, so I never have to memorize a Chain Lightning. Allows for more versatility for wizard.
Half-orc bonus would add 7 points at that level. That would push you closer to 300. Be about 261 damage.
It's not a bad combo. I do like Chain Lightning for my admixture evocation specialist. Precludes me having to take selective Spell.
Spell Perfection ... What are your thoughts/opinions/experiences with that feat?
I used it for a 15th-level elf Sorcerer in a high-level game I've played the last couple of weekends. Spell-perfected maximized disintegrate for 192 damage (with a +1 CL ioun stone). With the PC's spell focus (transmutation) feat and spell penetration feat (and both of the greater feats), the DC was 28 and the CL to overcome spell resistance was +10.
My buddy had a paladin/sorcerer/oracle/dragon disciple with spell-perfected quickened true strike--another great use of the feat.
The uses are endless.
It is my opinion that everyone should take this feat. If you are a straight fighter, take this feat. If you are a blind, crippled kobold beggar who cleans chamberpots--take this feat.
Quicken + True Strike is a nice combo!
doubles bonuses, not penalties :D
I suffer a -2 pentalty to my caster level because Spell Perfection doubles modifiers from feats (Irrisen Ice-Mage adds 1 to your caster level of all spells with the cold descriptor, -1 to any spell with another energy type).
Going back and reading I see now. So I don't need to worry about doubling the penalty, but the penalty applies anyway.
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Spell Perfection ... What are your thoughts/opinions/experiences with that feat?I used it for a 15th-level elf Sorcerer in a high-level game I've played the last couple of weekends. Spell-perfected maximized disintegrate for 192 damage (with a +1 CL ioun stone). With the PC's spell focus (transmutation) feat and spell penetration feat (and both of the greater feats), the DC was 28 and the CL to overcome spell resistance was +10.
My buddy had a paladin/sorcerer/oracle/dragon disciple with spell-perfected quickened true strike--another great use of the feat.
The uses are endless.
It is my opinion that everyone should take this feat. If you are a straight fighter, take this feat. If you are a blind, crippled kobold beggar who cleans chamberpots--take this feat.
The Caster level would only be +9 the Ioun stone won't double, but "Varisian Tattoo" would.
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But as soon as you add any non-Perfected metamagics to a non-Quickened spell, it takes a full round to cast for a Sorcerer, making it way less useful. This is a significant limitation for Sorcerers, who will have more slots and more flexibility.
I tend to use free Quicken followed by free Maximize on my Fire Snake spells. Adding any other metamagics to the free Quicken could be done, but if I'm not Quickening, I can only add one metamagic (free) or it takes too long to cast.
Does any of this make sense? I'm not sure my thoughts are coming out properly onto the page.
--Penn
I have an Eldtrich Knight who took this feat at... he's either 17 or 18th level, I forget at the moment, and took Scorching Ray as his perfected spell. Combined with the Magical Lineage trait, he can maximize and still the spell and it still only takes up a 2nd level slot. I like to empower it as well - and boy oh boy does that Eldritch Knight get a lot of mileage out of that spell.
(note, this feat also doubles the damage he gets out of weapon specialization: ray, which while not overly powerful is still kinda neat)
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Quicken + True Strike is a nice combo!Oh blimey I hadn't thought about that...
I would say that Quicken Spell cant be use with Spell Perfection since it says that "without affecting its level or casting time. So a quicken spell would be affecting its casting time making it a swift action.
Also dont come with the idea that this was intented just for spontaneous spellcaster because the wizard is not spontaneous and have this same wording in its Universalist ability Metamagic Mastery that says: "this does not alter the level of the spell or casting time.
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I would say that Quicken Spell cant be use with Spell Perfection since it says that "without affecting its level or casting time. So a quicken spell would be affecting its casting time making it a swift action.
Also dont come with the idea that this was intented just for spontaneous spellcaster because the wizard is not spontaneous and have this same wording in its Universalist ability Metamagic Mastery that says: "this does not alter the level of the spell or casting time.
I don't believe that the statement was intended to imply that a Universalist Wizard with Metamagic Mastery couldn't apply Quicken Spell with it. I believe that it was intended to clarify that using Metamagic Mastery doesn't increase casting time, even though it's being applied in a spontaneous fashion.
Metamagic Mastery (Su): At 8th level, you can apply
any one metamagic feat that you know to a spell you are
about to cast. This does not alter the level of the spell or
the casting time.
Note that the text doesn't say that the feat applied can't alter the casting time. It says that using Metamagic Mastery doesn't alter the level of the spell or the casting time.
Same argument applies to Spell Perfection. You can use it with Quicken Spell.
By your interpretation, Karse, the designers specifically would have been attempting to prevent Metamagic Mastery (and Spell Perfection) from being used in conjunction with the (not particularly overpowered) feat Heighten Spell, as well. I don't think so.
I was thinking of taking Spell Perfection when I get to 15th level with my Fey bloodline sorcerer and picking Dominate Person. Using Heighten Spell as the metamagic feat the DC for resisting the spell would be 31 at level 15, 33 at level 16, and 34 at level 18 - assuming I don't upgrade my Headbead of Alluring Charisma from +4 to +6.
I like taking Spell Perfection with Enervation as the spell.
Tossing out a pair of Quickened Enervation (Swift, Move) and a Maximized Enervation (standard) for only 3 level 4 spell slots is pretty awesome against anything that isn't immune to energy drain; though my GM ruled that the 'without affecting casting time' only related to the spontaneous metamagic rules, so Quicken was allowed to work.
Even without it, Empowered and Maximized Enervations are my favorite way to soften people up for other spells and things to hit harder.
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I like taking Spell Perfection with Enervation as the spell.
Tossing out a pair of Quickened Enervation (Swift, Move) and a Maximized Enervation (standard) for only 3 level 4 spell slots is pretty awesome against anything that isn't immune to energy drain; though my GM ruled that the 'without affecting casting time' only related to the spontaneous metamagic rules, so Quicken was allowed to work.
Even without it, Empowered and Maximized Enervations are my favorite way to soften people up for other spells and things to hit harder.
Sorry, but Quicken Spell is a swift action. You can only take one swift action in a round. You can't use a move action to take another swift action. So, you could cast a single Quickened Enervation, not a pair of them.
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small
amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of
effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only
a single swift action per turn.
Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action.
You can perform another action, even casting another
spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A
spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action
cannot be quickened.
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher
than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell
doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell
cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is
not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the
spell’s casting time.
My Oracle of the Heavens (With the Awesome Display revelation -Cha is at 30 iirc) uses Spell Perfection for Color Spray. (Has Magical Lineage trait for it too)
Quickened Persistent Color spray= 15ft cone everything with 12 or fewer HD has to make 2 DC25 will saves or get the full effect of the spell. Reduced effect for things up to 15HD.
With a 2nd level spell slot. (i.e. at least 40+ times per day)
I actually use this on my Oracle of Life in a large campaign I play in. She took it on Cure critical wounds. In combat if I have to cast it I can cast a quickened one then a maximized one. But I really like to cast Echoing cure crits. My GM ruled I cannot echo the echoed spell. But this sure nets me alot of Mileage on my Cure criticals.
And I took magical lineage HEAL for those reach heals.
Sorry, but Quicken Spell is a swift action. You can only take one swift action in a round. You can't use a move action to take another swift action. So, you could cast a single Quickened Enervation, not a pair of them.I like taking Spell Perfection with Enervation as the spell.
Tossing out a pair of Quickened Enervation (Swift, Move) and a Maximized Enervation (standard) for only 3 level 4 spell slots is pretty awesome against anything that isn't immune to energy drain; though my GM ruled that the 'without affecting casting time' only related to the spontaneous metamagic rules, so Quicken was allowed to work.
Even without it, Empowered and Maximized Enervations are my favorite way to soften people up for other spells and things to hit harder.
Heymitch is correct. For better mileage, try a quickened enervation followed by a maximized enervation.
Heymitch is correct. For better mileage, try a quickened enervation followed by a maximized enervation.Sorry, but Quicken Spell is a swift action. You can only take one swift action in a round. You can't use a move action to take another swift action. So, you could cast a single Quickened Enervation, not a pair of them.I like taking Spell Perfection with Enervation as the spell.
Tossing out a pair of Quickened Enervation (Swift, Move) and a Maximized Enervation (standard) for only 3 level 4 spell slots is pretty awesome against anything that isn't immune to energy drain; though my GM ruled that the 'without affecting casting time' only related to the spontaneous metamagic rules, so Quicken was allowed to work.
Even without it, Empowered and Maximized Enervations are my favorite way to soften people up for other spells and things to hit harder.
Ahh, fluff. My GM always told me that Swift became Move if you tried doing two.
Well, I will let him know.