|
So in 4th edition, they say you can retrain a feat every time you level. Is there any provision for retraining feats at all in Pathfinder? I can’t seem to find anything on it in the books.
Specifically, I have a player who is an Oracle and plans on eventually multiclassing into Barbarian. He wants to take a proficiency feat for handaxe (a martial weapon), but in a couple of levels he’ll be getting that proficiency as part of taking up the ways of Barbarian anyway. Will he at any point (even if it is at a designated level point) be able to retrain the proficiency feat, or will he be stuck with that feat for the remainder of his career?
Currently I'm not aware of any rules as written for retraining feats. I've seen it houseruled in various ways before!
|
So in 4th edition, they say you can retrain a feat every time you level. Is there any provision for retraining feats at all in Pathfinder? I can’t seem to find anything on it in the books.
Specifically, I have a player who is an Oracle and plans on eventually multiclassing into Barbarian. He wants to take a proficiency feat for handaxe (a martial weapon), but in a couple of levels he’ll be getting that proficiency as part of taking up the ways of Barbarian anyway. Will he at any point (even if it is at a designated level point) be able to retrain the proficiency feat, or will he be stuck with that feat for the remainder of his career?
I believe a fighter can swap out feats every 2-4 levels. I cannot remember exactly when. That feat must not be used a stepping stone to another feat however.
|
|
Currently I'm not aware of any rules as written for retraining feats. I've seen it houseruled in various ways before!
This; I wouldn't allow it on a regular basis, though (for example, every time a PC finds a new, more powerful magical weapon). I've thinking of allowing retraining at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 -- and only on a case-by-case basis, i.e. if the swap makes sense and fits the story (for example, if Joe the Paladin has fervently trained channeling against outsiders for the last 3 experience levels, I'll let him swap a feat for Alignment Channel).
As far as I know, there aren't any rules to this. In my group, our houserule is basically: a) have you used the feat at all or b) when's the last time you've used it?
If the answer for a) is never or b) like 5+ levels, then we allow you to swap feats. It always sucks to choose a feat and only later realize that you don't actually want to use it or it doesn't really work the way you thought it did so you stop using it.
3.5 Players Handbook 2 has rules on retraining feats.
Standard PF Rules do not include retraining so you have to decide if you want to include them on your own. If you don't want to add retraining as such you might consider instead upgrading existing feats when they become obsolete into related feat - in this specific instance change Martial Weapon Proficiency into Weapon Focus in the same weapon, if player won't mind.
Or just specificaly rule that when existing feat becomes obsolete because of class feature or class feat (like Ranger's Endurance) its slot becomes freed without retraining - think of it as the feature duplicating existing feat giving bonus feat.
Yar.
By RAW, only fighters can retrain feats, and only their fighter bonus feats, and only if it was a feat that was not used as a pre-req for anything you currently have. You can do this at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter.
Link and quote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Bards, Sorcerers, Inquisitors, Oracles, and Summoners have a similar ability with their spells known (replace a spell known for another at 5th and every 3rd after for half casters, and at 4th and every 2 after for full casters), but only the Fighter can retrain his bonus feats by RAW in Pathfinder.
3.5 PHBII did have retraining rules, and many DM's have houserules regarding general retraining as well... but by RAW, I'm afraid you're SOL.
~P
The only official rule for retraining feats in Pathfinder is for Fighters. Also, like everyone else, I let players retrain anyway.
Usually, I just play it by ear. But, for the first two levels, I let people change whatever they want whenever they want. I consider 1st level to be part of the character creation process.
Later, I still let players change things up pretty freely, but requests are generally few. Skills, feats, spells known, as long as players aren't trying to flip-flop back and forth or change based on the needs of a single adventure, I really don't mind.
|
If you use 3.5 materials, there is a way to retrain feats without having to wait until you attain levels. You'll need to find a Psion who can manifest the power Psychic Reformation. It's a 4th Level psionic power that lets you retrain feats and redistribute skill points from previous levels at a cost of 50 xp per level back that you have to go, including your current level(for instance if you're a 6 level character who wants to retrain a feat you took at 1st level, it will cost 300 xp), which is split evenly between the psion and the character, plus whatever he will charge you in gold. Of course, that requires that your DM is allowing the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
As a house rule, I'll usually let a character retrain a feat if the original feat was taken as a planned prerequisite for a prestige class or another feat that the character ultimately decided not to take. I'll also allow the characters to make more sweeping changes when new classes, feats and spells become available (such as when the APG came out).
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I believe a fighter can swap out feats every 2-4 levels. I cannot remember exactly when. That feat must not be used a stepping stone to another feat however.
No PF rules exist for retraining anything including feats. The only "retrain like" rule I know is the "you can take an archetype if you haven't reached the level it gains its first ability yet" rule.
You might (as a DM) just use 3.5 PHB 2 rules on retraining feats. Some of the PHB 2 retrain rules didn't always button up the "as if you made this choice at that time instead of what choice you made" so it allows for characters that can't be built without retraining. Most DM's will add those restrictions so the character can be duplicated legally without doing retraining.
The psionic retrain was also missing the required "as if you took this" lines.
I allow retraining of feats. What I do is this.
1) You have to decide you're going to do it when you level.
2) You lose the feat for that level (if you decide you want to use it, the retraining fails).
3) When you reach your next level, the feat is retrained.
Now, there are limits, you can't retrain a pre-requisite feat for another feat you have. You can't replace it with a feat that you couldn't have qualified for when you took that feat.
The way I do it gives a bit of flexibility to people who are just starting their career (it's easier to retrain the lower your level), whereas the higher your level, the less likely you are to be so quick to relearn.
Personally, if I were the GM I'd just let him swap handaxe proficiency for another weapon proficiency of equal or greater value (e.g. morningstar, crossbow or longspear). Problem solved.
I'd allow anyone to retrain any feat as long as it wasn't used a pre-requisite for something. There would be a down side though. Basically I'd allow it when you level up. You can retrain, from that level to you next you have no feat in that slot. As soon as you reach the next level your learn the new feat.
So say you have weapon focus longsword but wanted weapon focus great sword instead. You hit 3rd and lose weapon focus longsword, when you hit 4th you gain weapon focus great sword to replace it.
I'd allow anyone to retrain any feat as long as it wasn't used a pre-requisite for something. There would be a down side though. Basically I'd allow it when you level up. You can retrain, from that level to you next you have no feat in that slot. As soon as you reach the next level your learn the new feat.
So say you have weapon focus longsword but wanted weapon focus great sword instead. You hit 3rd and lose weapon focus longsword, when you hit 4th you gain weapon focus great sword to replace it.
So basically, you do what I do. (Look up three postings). :)
As far as I know, there aren't any rules to this. In my group, our houserule is basically: a) have you used the feat at all or b) when's the last time you've used it?
If the answer for a) is never or b) like 5+ levels, then we allow you to swap feats. It always sucks to choose a feat and only later realize that you don't actually want to use it or it doesn't really work the way you thought it did so you stop using it.
+1
Definitely in house rule territory regarding PF and feat retraining. In my current campaign, I let players alter feats at 3rd, 5th, 7th, et cetera, levels. Details here.
Yar.
Is no one reading my post above? It includes a link to the relevant rule located at d20pfsrd.com and a quote that shows feat retraining rules ARE in pathfinder. They are just incredibly restrictive (as in, fighter only, and only for his bonus feats).
The quote is from page 55 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook; Heading: Class Abilities; Subheading: Bonus Feats; second paragraph.
Unrestrictive retraining is not in the rules, but to say that there are no retraining rules at all for feats or spells known is simply not true.
As for the OP's situation, by the rules he is out of luck, as the Barbarian does not have the ability to retrain feats, and the Oracle can only retrain spells known (one spell at a time, starting at 4th level and every other level thereafter).
~P
Yar.
Is no one reading my post above? It includes a link to the relevant rule located at d20pfsrd.com and a quote that shows feat retraining rules ARE in pathfinder. They are just incredibly restrictive (as in, fighter only, and only for his bonus feats).
The quote is from page 55 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook; Heading: Class Abilities; Subheading: Bonus Feats; second paragraph.
Unrestrictive retraining is not in the rules, but to say that there are no retraining rules at all for feats or spells known is simply not true.
As for the OP's situation, by the rules he is out of luck, as the Barbarian does not have the ability to retrain feats, and the Oracle can only retrain spells known (one spell at a time, starting at 4th level and every other level thereafter).
~P
We read it, but, since the rules only apply to fighters, and only in very specific circumstances, that makes it pretty much useless for 90% of the time.
So.... people are commenting on their way of handling it.
|
|
Thanks for all the input.
From what I see here, and from talking to people at the game stores locally, this appears to be one of those situations that is *highly* houseruled, to the point that it would probably be worth taking another look at from a systemic point of view.
Further research finds RAW to be, rather specifically, “…previous choices concerning class, skills, and feats cannot be changed.”
This is exceptionally troubling with the above example of taking a martial weapon proficiency feat only to multiclass into a class proficient with all martial weapons a couple levels later--even moreso given what kyrt-ryder said above:
Paizo's fix of the skill system was designed to mitigate the 'level juggeling' that happened in 3.5
To have a feat become not just “basically useless” (where if one had taken a future multiclass into account, feat X would have been better than feat Y), but become completely and utterly rendered redundant--thereby permanently eliminating what is by design a precious limited resource for a character--it just seems…wrong!
A simple houserule is obviously the way to go, here. When my player multiclasses into Barbarian, he’s going to get his feat back.
But to the larger issue: If the playerbase has to houserule around this…couldn’t it be considered a flaw of the design? And what if this had been a Pathfinder Society character? There is no such thing as “houserule” there!
Eh, I’m not going to die on this hill. It’s late and I’m far more upset about this right now than one needs to get about it. I just think that it deserves a looking-at, that’s all.
But to the larger issue: If the playerbase has to houserule around this…couldn’t it be considered a flaw of the design?
A flaw? Nope. Something I kind of don't care for and so I thought it would be worth seeing how it would work otherwise? Sure.
You have a few people in a thread responding to a question. That hardly constitutes the playerbase.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
This is exceptionally troubling with the above example of taking a martial weapon proficiency feat only to multiclass into a class proficient with all martial weapons a couple levels later
couldn’t it be considered a flaw of the design?
We have different views on what it should be like. I think of it like this:
You can't change your experiences, so you need to build your character (if you start at level 1) level by level and if you made bad choices, you can't change them.I don't agree it is a design flaw.
If you are concerned, build your 20th level of your character so that when you start it at level 1 you know all your next 19 levels of choices preplanned.
|
|
If you are concerned, build your 20th level of your character so that when you start it at level 1 you know all your next 19 levels of choices preplanned.
But how much in the spirit of roleplay is this? Things will come up during play, and players should be allowed to roll with them without being exceptionally penalized (such as having, essentially, one less feat than everyone else in the party) because of the order of how things happened during play.
I refer again to steps that were already taken at a systemic level (i.e., skills) to alleviate some of this wrangling, and put it to the community here on the forums: Why it was a good idea to do that (i.e., fix that flaw), but a bad idea to make an official change to this rule (i.e., fix this flaw)?
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
You can't change your experiences, but at the same time, you are learning new things.
I should make it more clear, I was rejecting the "design flaw" comment more than the "players should be able to do this" concept.
I don't consider being unable to change your character a design flaw, but I have no problem with a GM who allows his player to change things (especially considering I GM twice a week and I've often, even frequently, allowed players to change their character.) But when I do so, I enforce the "must be a valid choice if made at the time" concept. That is a difficult to codify rule, that really requires GM adjudication more often than not.
If you are concerned, build your 20th level of your character so that when you start it at level 1 you know all your next 19 levels of choices preplanned.
One of my friends called this periscope role-playing. You stick your head up, see where you want to go, dive, and if anything gets in your way, ignore it. ("But I have to be kidnapped and sold into slavery between 5th and 6th level, or I can't take the all important level of gladiator!" "I need the character to have a religious epiphany here, so I can take a cleric level." "This level I fall out of favor with my god, and take a level of Ur-Priest.")
I'm not saying that planning the character out is a bad thing, just if the campaign isn't allowed to affect your character, why play him in it?I allow retraining rules because you don't always know what's coming up in the campaign. Also, because characters get a lot more time to choose than players do.
I also don't stop at retraining feats. Ranger favored enemies can be retrained ("What do you mean there's no evil outsiders in the campaign?!"), I even let people retrain class levels. Why? because sometimes a player chooses the wrong thing and I let them correct it. If it was never used, I usually just retcon the change.
One issue I recently had come up was someone avoiding taking Power Attack because they get it from their sorcerer bloodline. It seems silly to me that begin able to get a feat as a bonus form a class ability would force you to wait longer to take that feat instead of making it easier to get.
In 3.5 I made these things cost XP, in pathfinder, they currently take time and training (above and beyond what you can self-teach).
Overall, this has made for some interesting characters. It also means that if a PC wants to take that cool 5th level commoner NPC as a cohort for RP reasons, said NPC can retrain with a real class instead of having 5 dead levels.
Ultimately though, it's a GM question. Allowing people to swap things too freely gives some classes a major advantage. In the above example, having your ranger always have whatever the party is facing as a favored enemy is a major abuse. Still, if the ranger has 6 months to prepare of an invasion, I say "why not?" This way I can have my slow level progression and PCs can experiment with different things without being too concerned they're going to be at a permanent disadvantage. Again though, that's my GM style, YMMV.
|
|
Rather then making house rules to let anyone alter a feat, I would rather use story and role play to alter the feat. People talk about allowing feat changes because they want to role play their character rather then plan the build out to 20. I have no problems with the role playing (the whole point of the game if you ask me), but if you had a cleric who's deity dies in the course of the game for some reason, do you allow the cleric to rebuild their character from the start as something other then a cleric so that they do not have useless choices, or do you use it as a story line point and have the character work at finding a new god, saving theirs, or some other plot point?
I would rather have the character with the bad feat (other than a fighter), work on finding a way to recover that info. I think that a special version of Modify memory cast by a specific bard might make a fun sub-plot, and help the character RP out their finding their Oracle powers better. Or you could have the Powers that are giving the Oracle their power clear out the feat, at a price.