My gaming group has been keen on the idea of mounted but I wish to try it out. I have a cavalier with mounted attack, ride by attack, and spirited charge, feats as well as vital strike and improved vital strike. When charging atop his mount with a lance is this the correct damage for 16 strength?
[1d8+3(str) + 1d8 (vital strike) + 1d8 (improved vital strike)] * 3 [spirit charge plus usage of a lance]
I understand you cannot use vital strike in conjunction with things like spring attack or shot on the run but can you do it with spirited charge? If he happens to score a critical hit while charging is the critical damage also tripled?
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My gaming group has been keen on the idea of mounted but I wish to try it out. I have a cavalier with mounted attack, ride by attack, and spirited charge, feats as well as vital strike and improved vital strike. When charging atop his mount with a lance is this the correct damage for 16 strength?
[1d8+3(str) + 1d8 (vital strike) + 1d8 (improved vital strike)] * 3 [spirit charge plus usage of a lance]
I understand you cannot use vital strike in conjunction with things like spring attack or shot on the run but can you do it with spirited charge? If he happens to score a critical hit while charging is the critical damage also tripled?
Vital Strike can't be used with a charge.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Vital-Strike-3-7-10-
Sorry.
On the upside, Lance is two handed so go strength and a half not just strength. Also consider power attack.
So if a character is on a mount and the mount charges, then both creatures count as charging?
I believe you can do this.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
Your mount charges. You make the standard action vital strike at the end of your mount's charge. You receive the bonus from the charge. The last sentence seems to suggest this constitutes charging on horseback.
I believe this is one of the only ways to combine vital strike with anything else.
Note, this is different from when your mount takes a double move. This is your mount explicitly using the charge action.
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RAW? No.
I always allow it in my game, just as I allow it with Spring Attack. Otherwise the feat is poop.
Your mount charges. You make the standard action vital strike at the end of your mount's charge.
Spirited Charge (Combat): "When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."
Spirited Charge only works if you are using the charge action. If your mount is using the charge action and you're using the attack action, you don't get the extra damage.
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I have a huge thread on this. RAW, yes, you can totally Vital Strike from the back of a charging mount. Here's why:
In this FAQ SKR makes it clear that a lance only does double damage from the back of a charging mount. In this quote SKR specifically states "If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge".
We also know from the Mounted Skirmisher feat that normal is "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action".
the Vital Strike FAQ says " Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action."
What does that mean? It means you still have your full complement of actions, you can Vital Strike with a lance from the back of a charging mount, and you can do:
Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited charge + 1x weapon Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancements + precision and weapon properties
or
Greater Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited Charge + 3x weapon Greater Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancement + precision and weapon properties.
Further, there are only three places where people seem to have trouble with the mounted combat rules:
Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge which both say "When you are mounted and use the charge action"
and the section in Mounted combat that says "When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."
The lance is clarified in it's own equipment entry where it says "A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount" and since SKR has already clarified that when your mount is charging, you are not the one taking the charge action, we know that these feats are triggered by being on the back of a charging mount. Problem solved, everything works, no other contradictions or issues.
If you are not charging when your mount charges, will we ever get errata for Spirited Charge, Mighty Charge, and Supreme Charge? They all require that you charge / use the charge action / make a charge attack while mounted. But if your mount charging doesn't count as you charging, they are all impossible to use.Those feats work fine. The language might not be 100% super precise, but you can assume that in the cases of those feats, a charging mount that you're riding lets you use the feats as written.
They could fix this by replacing the words in bold with the following:
"When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."
"When on a mount that is using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."
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Agreed Grick.
That being said, the posts by JJ, SKR, and the standard rules for Mounted Combat all add up to:
You can use Vital Strike from the back of a charging mount.
Probably not as good as Mounted Skirmisher, but it leaves a move action available to you for things like switching out weapons, drawing a shield or potion, etc.
Plus that giant hit for "Greater Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited Charge + 3x weapon Greater Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancement + precision and weapon properties" may not actually do as much as damage overall as a Mounted Skirmisher attack routine, but it'll be cool to do that much on one hit.
There will still be issues as some other feats and abilities are clearly written assuming you the rider are the one charging. Unless the attack the rider makes is a charge attack but it's not a charge, which is just silly.
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There will still be issues as some other feats and abilities are clearly written assuming you the rider are the one charging. Unless the attack the rider makes is a charge attack but it's not a charge, which is just silly.
That's exactly what Mounted Combat says though.
"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."And as noted earlier in that same section "Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move."
El Mounto charges, you get all the perks and penalties of charging, but you aren't using any actions to do it.
And as I noted earlier, Spirited Charge and Ride-by Attack both say "When mounted and using the charge action", which JJ pointed out may be poorly worded but should be clear to mean "When (you are) mounted and (your mount is) using the charge action..."
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And it's absolutely silly that the condition of "during a charge while mounted" can be true but you aren't "making a charge", or that you can be "in a charge" but not in a charge at the same time, or that you get some of the perks of charging but not others, or that you could be using the charge action but not using the charge action, or that to get the extra damage from a lance, your mount must attack something. A lot of things just work by just using your mount as the movement and yourself using the action.
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And it's absolutely silly that the condition of "during a charge while mounted" can be true but you aren't "making a charge", or that you can be "in a charge" but not in a charge at the same time, or that you get some of the perks of charging but not others, or that you could be using the charge action but not using the charge action, or that to get the extra damage from a lance, your mount must attack something. A lot of things just work by just using your mount as the movement and yourself using the action.
You don't have to make an attack to charge. Your mount charges and has the option of making an attack as long as the other requirements for fighting with a combat trained mount are met. You get to stab something and are considered charging but still have a full complement of actions.
"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge."
I suppose you're right that despite everything else implying you're doing something at the end of your charge, you don't necessarily need to do anything.
Wow, that'd be fun. If you got certain bonuses while charging, you could charge your allies, do nothing, but still get those bonuses. Man, cavalier using Coordinated Charge to get all your allies around you when they got split up...
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remember that a lance while mounted is one handed, so no 1.5*strIt can be used in one hand, but does not transform into a one handed weapon. There is a difference.
Two-handed weapons get 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus. There is no caveat here that it be wielded in two hands.
A lance is still a two-handed weapon.
-James
Hand usage is RAI. It is just one of those things that still needs to be addressed, since the lance is a corner case weapon. I guess it does need an FAQ.
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I suppose you're right that despite everything else implying you're doing something at the end of your charge, you don't necessarily need to do anything.
Wow, that'd be fun. If you got certain bonuses while charging, you could charge your allies, do nothing, but still get those bonuses. Man, cavalier using Coordinated Charge to get all your allies around you when they got split up...
I actually pulled that in a game the other week and my GM was dumbfounded when I showed him the section in the book that I quoted above showing that you don't actually have to attack on a charge. The party had triggered a trap that was causing random sections of the floor to drop and we were sure to have a section under a party member drop that round, so my Fighter/Cavalier charged the wizard at the back of the group near the door and let everyone else charge with me.
There were some amusing jokes about what the wizard's face must have looked like but...
Two-handed weapons get 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus. There is no caveat here that it be wielded in two hands.
I know that probably comes off as sarcastic, but I'm genuinely curious if that is the case.
Does that mean that a Titan Mauler using Jotungrip gets 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus for the Greatsword in each hand?
Jotungrip (Ex): "...it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."
Or a pair of small Elven Curve Blades for 1d8 18-20x2 with 1.5*str and x3 PA each?
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon."
Since you're wielding it as a one-handed weapon, those two-handed rules don't apply.
The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."
Does that mean that a Titan Mauler using Jotungrip gets 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus for the Greatsword in each hand?Jotungrip (Ex): "...it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."
Or a pair of small Elven Curve Blades for 1d8 18-20x2 with 1.5*str and x3 PA each?Inappropriately Sized Weapons: "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon."
Since you're wielding it as a one-handed weapon, those two-handed rules don't apply.
The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."
Well that's what I get for not looking over those to refresh my memory before asking. Thanks!
I suppose you're right that despite everything else implying you're doing something at the end of your charge, you don't necessarily need to do anything.
Wow, that'd be fun. If you got certain bonuses while charging, you could charge your allies, do nothing, but still get those bonuses. Man, cavalier using Coordinated Charge to get all your allies around you when they got split up...
I actually pulled that in a game the other week and my GM was dumbfounded when I showed him the section in the book that I quoted above showing that you don't actually have to attack on a charge. The party had triggered a trap that was causing random sections of the floor to drop and we were sure to have a section under a party member drop that round, so my Fighter/Cavalier charged the wizard at the back of the group near the door and let everyone else charge with me.
There were some amusing jokes about what the wizard's face must have looked like but...
Y'know what, Charge is under Special Attacks, which is proof enough for me to the intent that you need to do something offensive oriented.
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The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."
So, then by that logic, if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), you get the 1.5 STR to damage when using a bastard sword one-handed.
EDIT: let's take it a step further: you don't have the EWP, but decide to take the -4 penalty and use it one-handed, you are saying that you would still get a 1.5 STR to damag?
The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."
So, then by that logic, if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), you get the 1.5 STR to damage when using a bastard sword one-handed.
EDIT: let's take it a step further: you don't have the EWP, but decide to take the -4 penalty and use it one-handed, you are saying that you would still get a 1.5 STR to damag?
I think you're under the mistaken impression the bastard sword is a two-handed weapon.
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To add more fuel to the 'but we've never played it this way' a double weapon like a orc double-axe is a two-handed weapon and electing to TWF with it does not change this.
-James
I was actually making that point the other day. The rules for weapons say that you calculate penalties for TWF with both ends of the weapon as though you were fighting with a one-handed and a light weapon, but nothing actually says you treat the double-weapon as such. Seems like technically you should be getting STR x1.5 and the -1/+3 Power Attack Ratio with both ends of a double weapon when Two-weapon fighting with it
The rules are not written perfectly. Any rule that has not changed can probably be verified by checking the rules of the game articles on the 3.5 site. Paizo did make sure to change the wording on rules where they intended for them to work differently. The others, they left alone.
edit:The 3.5 site explains that double weapons do damage just as if you were using a one-handed weapon, and a light weapon.
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The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."
So, then by that logic, if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), you get the 1.5 STR to damage when using a bastard sword one-handed.
EDIT: let's take it a step further: you don't have the EWP, but decide to take the -4 penalty and use it one-handed, you are saying that you would still get a 1.5 STR to damag?
I think you're under the mistaken impression the bastard sword is a two-handed weapon.
The bastard sword is either a one-handed exotic weapon or a two-handed martial weapon, depending on whether or not you have the EWP feat. So, the first part of my post would be incorrect, but the "edited" part is still valid.
The lance is a two-handed weapon that has an exception (being mounted) that allows it to be used one-handed without penalty; the bastard sword is a two-handed weapon that has an exception (taking a feat) that allows it to be used one-handed without penalty.
So, if I don't have the EWP feat and choose to fight with the bastard sword (a two-handed martial weapon) one-handed, do I get 1.5 STR to damage just because it is a two-handed weapon?
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The bastard sword is either a one-handed exotic weapon or a two-handed martial weapon, depending on whether or not you have the EWP feat.
This is not true.
Look at the italics. Use it two-handed, AS a martial weapon. That's not the same as using it AS a two-handed martial weapon.
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do I get 1.5 STR to damage just because it is a two-handed weapon?But it never is a two-handed weapon.
Please go back and read the entry very carefully. It takes a little effort as our minds want to add wording in that isn't there.. filling in blank spaces to conform to a preconception.
-James
You're so confident in yourself, did you ever stop to consider that you're the one standing on the wrong mountain top?
A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
A character can use a longsword two-handed as a martial weapon.
Neither of them are two-handed weapons, despite the fact that a character can use either one of them two-handed as a martial weapon.
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The bastard sword is either a one-handed exotic weapon or a two-handed martial weapon, depending on whether or not you have the EWP feat.This is not true.
Look at the italics. Use it two-handed, AS a martial weapon. That's not the same as using it AS a two-handed martial weapon.
Well, let's work through this. If I don't have the EWP, is the bastard sword a:
Simple Light Weapon? Nope.
Simple One-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Simple Two-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Simple Ranged Weapon? Nope.
Martial Light Weapon? Nope
Martial One-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Martial Ranged Weapon? Nope.
Exotic Light Weapon? Nope.
Exotic One-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Exotic Two-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Exotic Ranged Weapon? Nope.
Furthermore, don't change the context of the sentence by adding a comma in your explanation where a comma doesn't exist. It says "[use it] two-handed as a martial weapon" not "[use it] two-handed, as a martial weapon". As the sentence is written, "two-handed as a martial weapon" is the same as "as a two-handed martial weapon". Either way, that is irrelevant, because as someone who doesn't have the EWP, I treat the bastard sword as a martial weapon and must use it two-handed (i.e. it is a two-handed martial weapon for my character).
If I don't have the EWP, is the bastard sword a:
Exotic One-Handed Weapon?
Yes.
As the sentence is written, "two-handed as a martial weapon" is the same as "as a two-handed martial weapon".
This is not true.
The former: two-handed is how you're using it, and martial is the type of weapon. You're using it in a specific way, as a specific type of weapon.
The latter: two-handed martial is the type of weapon. You're just using it as a specific type of weapon.
They are not the same.
as someone who doesn't have the EWP, I treat the bastard sword as a martial weapon and must use it two-handed
Correct.
(i.e. it is a two-handed martial weapon for my character).
This is not true. It's still a one-handed weapon, you're just using it two-handed.
For example, you cannot use Overhand Chop (Ex) with an appropriately sized longsword, even if you use both hands. Using the weapon two-handed does not make it a two-handed weapon.
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Sorry HangarFlying, the Bastard Sword is a One Handed Exotic weapon that can be used two handed as a martial weapon. The phrasing is very clear. It does not say it becomes a two handed martial weapon.
To parse it out, without EWP you require the Martial Weapon Proficiency and must use two hands to wield it. It remains a One Handed Exotic weapon.
I also stand on the mountain top that the Lance when used while mounted applies the -1 for +3 Power Attack ratio even though you only have one hand on it. It's a special case.
--School of Vrock
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Apparently the argument of whether or not a bastard sword classifies as one type of weapon or another is obfuscating my intended argument regarding using a two-handed weapon one-handed.
Greatsword. There we go, can't argue about whether or not that one is a two-handed weapon.
All else being equal, the only difference between a greatsword and a lance is that you avoid any penalties of using a lance one-handed if you are mounted. So, that being said, are you trying to tell me that if I use a greatsword one-handed, I still get a 1.5 STR bonus to damage?
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I'd also love a clarification on mounted charges. The way I read it, all those mounted charge related feats say "while you are charging on a mount..." but SKR explicitly said you are not charging while your mount charges. So, by that ruling, you can use vital strike on a mounted charge, but not ride by attack or spirited charge. I prefer to play it the opposite way. But I haven't really played my cavalier since SKR made that ruling because I'm not comfortable doing something I think is against RAW in PFS games.
Well, considering the Ride-By Attack mentions you being mounted, I don't see why you couldn't use it while mounted and charging...unless you mean to say that you couldn't use Vital Strike while using Ride-By Attack.
Ride-By Attack mentions using the "charge action", which would imply to me that Vital Strike may not be used in conjunction with Ride-By Attack, since Vital Strike is a standard action feat.
The same with Spirited Charge. In all actuality, Spirited Charge, to me, seems to be the "Vital Strike" version for those that are charging.