Spirited Charge and Vital Strike


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My gaming group has been keen on the idea of mounted but I wish to try it out. I have a cavalier with mounted attack, ride by attack, and spirited charge, feats as well as vital strike and improved vital strike. When charging atop his mount with a lance is this the correct damage for 16 strength?

[1d8+3(str) + 1d8 (vital strike) + 1d8 (improved vital strike)] * 3 [spirit charge plus usage of a lance]

I understand you cannot use vital strike in conjunction with things like spring attack or shot on the run but can you do it with spirited charge? If he happens to score a critical hit while charging is the critical damage also tripled?

Liberty's Edge

ntin wrote:

My gaming group has been keen on the idea of mounted but I wish to try it out. I have a cavalier with mounted attack, ride by attack, and spirited charge, feats as well as vital strike and improved vital strike. When charging atop his mount with a lance is this the correct damage for 16 strength?

[1d8+3(str) + 1d8 (vital strike) + 1d8 (improved vital strike)] * 3 [spirit charge plus usage of a lance]

I understand you cannot use vital strike in conjunction with things like spring attack or shot on the run but can you do it with spirited charge? If he happens to score a critical hit while charging is the critical damage also tripled?

Vital Strike can't be used with a charge.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Vital-Strike-3-7-10-

Sorry.

On the upside, Lance is two handed so go strength and a half not just strength. Also consider power attack.


So if a character is on a mount and the mount charges, then both creatures count as charging?


ntin wrote:
So if a character is on a mount and the mount charges, then both creatures count as charging?

The character is charging and the mount is making a double move.


"No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike." from d20pfsrd.com


I believe you can do this.

Quote:
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

Your mount charges. You make the standard action vital strike at the end of your mount's charge. You receive the bonus from the charge. The last sentence seems to suggest this constitutes charging on horseback.

I believe this is one of the only ways to combine vital strike with anything else.

Note, this is different from when your mount takes a double move. This is your mount explicitly using the charge action.


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RAW? No.
I always allow it in my game, just as I allow it with Spring Attack. Otherwise the feat is poop.


vital strike cannot be combined with charging, even mounted charging.
so damage would be (1d8+str)*3

If you crit it will become (1d8+str)*5 (*3 from spirited charge and *3 from crit combine to make *5)

remember that a lance while mounted is one handed, so no 1.5*str


Ximen Bao wrote:
Your mount charges. You make the standard action vital strike at the end of your mount's charge.

Spirited Charge (Combat): "When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."

Spirited Charge only works if you are using the charge action. If your mount is using the charge action and you're using the attack action, you don't get the extra damage.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 5 people marked this as a favorite.

I have a huge thread on this. RAW, yes, you can totally Vital Strike from the back of a charging mount. Here's why:
In this FAQ SKR makes it clear that a lance only does double damage from the back of a charging mount. In this quote SKR specifically states "If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge".
We also know from the Mounted Skirmisher feat that normal is "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action".
the Vital Strike FAQ says " Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action."

What does that mean? It means you still have your full complement of actions, you can Vital Strike with a lance from the back of a charging mount, and you can do:
Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited charge + 1x weapon Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancements + precision and weapon properties

or

Greater Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited Charge + 3x weapon Greater Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancement + precision and weapon properties.

Further, there are only three places where people seem to have trouble with the mounted combat rules:

Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge which both say "When you are mounted and use the charge action"

and the section in Mounted combat that says "When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."

The lance is clarified in it's own equipment entry where it says "A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount" and since SKR has already clarified that when your mount is charging, you are not the one taking the charge action, we know that these feats are triggered by being on the back of a charging mount. Problem solved, everything works, no other contradictions or issues.


Grick wrote:
Ximen Bao wrote:
Your mount charges. You make the standard action vital strike at the end of your mount's charge.

Spirited Charge (Combat): "When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."

Spirited Charge only works if you are using the charge action. If your mount is using the charge action and you're using the attack action, you don't get the extra damage.

The devs confirmed that it is the horse that is charging not you, you are just getting the benefits of that charge(spirited charge) on the attack at the end of the horses charge. They did this to stop lance pounce charge, but in doing so it meant that rather wonderfully vital strike mounted charge works and so to do Mounted Skirmisher Charge.


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
If you are not charging when your mount charges, will we ever get errata for Spirited Charge, Mighty Charge, and Supreme Charge? They all require that you charge / use the charge action / make a charge attack while mounted. But if your mount charging doesn't count as you charging, they are all impossible to use.
Those feats work fine. The language might not be 100% super precise, but you can assume that in the cases of those feats, a charging mount that you're riding lets you use the feats as written.

They could fix this by replacing the words in bold with the following:

"When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."

"When on a mount that is using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."

Scarab Sages

Agreed Grick.

That being said, the posts by JJ, SKR, and the standard rules for Mounted Combat all add up to:
You can use Vital Strike from the back of a charging mount.

Probably not as good as Mounted Skirmisher, but it leaves a move action available to you for things like switching out weapons, drawing a shield or potion, etc.
Plus that giant hit for "Greater Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited Charge + 3x weapon Greater Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancement + precision and weapon properties" may not actually do as much as damage overall as a Mounted Skirmisher attack routine, but it'll be cool to do that much on one hit.


There will still be issues as some other feats and abilities are clearly written assuming you the rider are the one charging. Unless the attack the rider makes is a charge attack but it's not a charge, which is just silly.

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:
There will still be issues as some other feats and abilities are clearly written assuming you the rider are the one charging. Unless the attack the rider makes is a charge attack but it's not a charge, which is just silly.

That's exactly what Mounted Combat says though.

"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."

And as noted earlier in that same section "Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move."

El Mounto charges, you get all the perks and penalties of charging, but you aren't using any actions to do it.

And as I noted earlier, Spirited Charge and Ride-by Attack both say "When mounted and using the charge action", which JJ pointed out may be poorly worded but should be clear to mean "When (you are) mounted and (your mount is) using the charge action..."


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

And it's absolutely silly that the condition of "during a charge while mounted" can be true but you aren't "making a charge", or that you can be "in a charge" but not in a charge at the same time, or that you get some of the perks of charging but not others, or that you could be using the charge action but not using the charge action, or that to get the extra damage from a lance, your mount must attack something. A lot of things just work by just using your mount as the movement and yourself using the action.

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:
And it's absolutely silly that the condition of "during a charge while mounted" can be true but you aren't "making a charge", or that you can be "in a charge" but not in a charge at the same time, or that you get some of the perks of charging but not others, or that you could be using the charge action but not using the charge action, or that to get the extra damage from a lance, your mount must attack something. A lot of things just work by just using your mount as the movement and yourself using the action.

You don't have to make an attack to charge. Your mount charges and has the option of making an attack as long as the other requirements for fighting with a combat trained mount are met. You get to stab something and are considered charging but still have a full complement of actions.

Charge:

"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.

You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.


Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge."


I suppose you're right that despite everything else implying you're doing something at the end of your charge, you don't necessarily need to do anything.

Wow, that'd be fun. If you got certain bonuses while charging, you could charge your allies, do nothing, but still get those bonuses. Man, cavalier using Coordinated Charge to get all your allies around you when they got split up...


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Bart Vervaet wrote:


remember that a lance while mounted is one handed, so no 1.5*str

It can be used in one hand, but does not transform into a one handed weapon. There is a difference.

Two-handed weapons get 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus. There is no caveat here that it be wielded in two hands.

A lance is still a two-handed weapon.

-James


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james maissen wrote:
Bart Vervaet wrote:


remember that a lance while mounted is one handed, so no 1.5*str

It can be used in one hand, but does not transform into a one handed weapon. There is a difference.

Two-handed weapons get 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus. There is no caveat here that it be wielded in two hands.

A lance is still a two-handed weapon.

-James

Hand usage is RAI. It is just one of those things that still needs to be addressed, since the lance is a corner case weapon. I guess it does need an FAQ.

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:

I suppose you're right that despite everything else implying you're doing something at the end of your charge, you don't necessarily need to do anything.

Wow, that'd be fun. If you got certain bonuses while charging, you could charge your allies, do nothing, but still get those bonuses. Man, cavalier using Coordinated Charge to get all your allies around you when they got split up...

I actually pulled that in a game the other week and my GM was dumbfounded when I showed him the section in the book that I quoted above showing that you don't actually have to attack on a charge. The party had triggered a trap that was causing random sections of the floor to drop and we were sure to have a section under a party member drop that round, so my Fighter/Cavalier charged the wizard at the back of the group near the door and let everyone else charge with me.

There were some amusing jokes about what the wizard's face must have looked like but...


wraithstrike wrote:


Hand usage is RAI. It is just one of those things that still needs to be addressed, since the lance is a corner case weapon. I guess it does need an FAQ.

I'm sorry? What do you mean by RAI? You know that all the devs in the various incarnations of 3rd edition all intended it to be something other than what they wrote, but after 13 years haven't gotten around to changing it??

RAW it is clear. If they want to change it now or in another 13 years then they can certainly do so.

But who is to gainsay that the lance shouldn't work as it is written?

After all, we also accept that there are no rules prohibiting one from still using two handed to wield a lance on horseback. Right? And when so wielded the rules are also clear that it would do as intended dealing 1.5x STR and x3 PA.

So all this is doing is allowing the best use of a lance wielded on horseback to be in the historical manner rather than some strange artifact of the game rules. Doesn't seem counter to intentions to me.

Why does it to you?

-James


james maissen wrote:
Two-handed weapons get 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus. There is no caveat here that it be wielded in two hands.

Derail:
Does that mean that a Titan Mauler using Jotungrip gets 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus for the Greatsword in each hand? Or a pair of small Elven Curve Blades for 1d8 18-20x2 with 1.5*str and x3 PA each?

I know that probably comes off as sarcastic, but I'm genuinely curious if that is the case.


redward wrote:
Does that mean that a Titan Mauler using Jotungrip gets 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus for the Greatsword in each hand?

Jotungrip (Ex): "...it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."

redward wrote:
Or a pair of small Elven Curve Blades for 1d8 18-20x2 with 1.5*str and x3 PA each?

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon."

Since you're wielding it as a one-handed weapon, those two-handed rules don't apply.

The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."


Grick wrote:
redward wrote:
Does that mean that a Titan Mauler using Jotungrip gets 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus for the Greatsword in each hand?

Jotungrip (Ex): "...it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."

redward wrote:
Or a pair of small Elven Curve Blades for 1d8 18-20x2 with 1.5*str and x3 PA each?

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon."

Since you're wielding it as a one-handed weapon, those two-handed rules don't apply.

The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."

Well that's what I get for not looking over those to refresh my memory before asking. Thanks!


Ssalarn wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

I suppose you're right that despite everything else implying you're doing something at the end of your charge, you don't necessarily need to do anything.

Wow, that'd be fun. If you got certain bonuses while charging, you could charge your allies, do nothing, but still get those bonuses. Man, cavalier using Coordinated Charge to get all your allies around you when they got split up...

I actually pulled that in a game the other week and my GM was dumbfounded when I showed him the section in the book that I quoted above showing that you don't actually have to attack on a charge. The party had triggered a trap that was causing random sections of the floor to drop and we were sure to have a section under a party member drop that round, so my Fighter/Cavalier charged the wizard at the back of the group near the door and let everyone else charge with me.

There were some amusing jokes about what the wizard's face must have looked like but...

Y'know what, Charge is under Special Attacks, which is proof enough for me to the intent that you need to do something offensive oriented.


redward wrote:
james maissen wrote:
Two-handed weapons get 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus. There is no caveat here that it be wielded in two hands.
** spoiler omitted **

Beyond the specific for Jotungrip, you have two competing things for when a two-handed weapon is also an offhand weapon (say a monk with a polearm electing to TWF with unarmed strikes as primary, etc).

The STR mod is set to 1.5x AND 0.5x so it is unclear how you would proceed for that (if you treat it as a bonus & a penalty, or if you think one trumps the other).

The modifier for power attack however is a bonus & penalty and BOTH apply to give you 1x STR mod for the off-hand two handed weapon.

-James

Liberty's Edge

Grick wrote:


The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."

So, then by that logic, if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), you get the 1.5 STR to damage when using a bastard sword one-handed.

EDIT: let's take it a step further: you don't have the EWP, but decide to take the -4 penalty and use it one-handed, you are saying that you would still get a 1.5 STR to damag?


You don't get 1.5xSTR mod to any weapon unless you are wielding it two handed. But the catch is that lance says that you can wield it one handed when on a mount, nothing is preventing you from using it two handed. Think it like a bastard sword, with the feat you can wield it in one hand without the penalties but even if you have the feat you can still two-hand it. Excatly the same thing with the lance just different parameters for when one handing is available.

On the Vital strike+Spirited charge, well just from reading this thread it seems to me that RAW you can use them together. That being said I do not belive it is RAI, because Vital strike was written in a way to pretty much not being able to use with anything. That being said my table has house ruled that from day one, although we have "gentlemen's agreement" on not trying to game the system.(Though in the rules forum that hardly matters what are houserules someone uses.)


The writers have this foolish desire to not reuse the same phrasing for similar rules. There's no hidden meaning in the difference.


HangarFlying wrote:
Grick wrote:


The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."

So, then by that logic, if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), you get the 1.5 STR to damage when using a bastard sword one-handed.

EDIT: let's take it a step further: you don't have the EWP, but decide to take the -4 penalty and use it one-handed, you are saying that you would still get a 1.5 STR to damag?

I think you're under the mistaken impression the bastard sword is a two-handed weapon.


HangarFlying wrote:

So, then by that logic, if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), you get the 1.5 STR to damage when using a bastard sword one-handed.

The bastard sword is a 1-handed exotic weapon. How you use it does not change this fact.

To add more fuel to the 'but we've never played it this way' a double weapon like a orc double-axe is a two-handed weapon and electing to TWF with it does not change this.

-James

Scarab Sages

james maissen wrote:

To add more fuel to the 'but we've never played it this way' a double weapon like a orc double-axe is a two-handed weapon and electing to TWF with it does not change this.

-James

I was actually making that point the other day. The rules for weapons say that you calculate penalties for TWF with both ends of the weapon as though you were fighting with a one-handed and a light weapon, but nothing actually says you treat the double-weapon as such. Seems like technically you should be getting STR x1.5 and the -1/+3 Power Attack Ratio with both ends of a double weapon when Two-weapon fighting with it


Ssalarn wrote:
james maissen wrote:

To add more fuel to the 'but we've never played it this way' a double weapon like a orc double-axe is a two-handed weapon and electing to TWF with it does not change this.

-James

I was actually making that point the other day. The rules for weapons say that you calculate penalties for TWF with both ends of the weapon as though you were fighting with a one-handed and a light weapon, but nothing actually says you treat the double-weapon as such. Seems like technically you should be getting STR x1.5 and the -1/+3 Power Attack Ratio with both ends of a double weapon when Two-weapon fighting with it

Well, that would mean there are more exotic weapons than just whip, net, and falcata, but it would make the quarterstaff overpowered.


The rules are not written perfectly. Any rule that has not changed can probably be verified by checking the rules of the game articles on the 3.5 site. Paizo did make sure to change the wording on rules where they intended for them to work differently. The others, they left alone.

edit:The 3.5 site explains that double weapons do damage just as if you were using a one-handed weapon, and a light weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Grick wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
Grick wrote:


The problem with the lance is it says "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" rather than "While mounted, you can wield a lance as a one-handed weapon."

So, then by that logic, if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), you get the 1.5 STR to damage when using a bastard sword one-handed.

EDIT: let's take it a step further: you don't have the EWP, but decide to take the -4 penalty and use it one-handed, you are saying that you would still get a 1.5 STR to damag?

I think you're under the mistaken impression the bastard sword is a two-handed weapon.

The bastard sword is either a one-handed exotic weapon or a two-handed martial weapon, depending on whether or not you have the EWP feat. So, the first part of my post would be incorrect, but the "edited" part is still valid.

The lance is a two-handed weapon that has an exception (being mounted) that allows it to be used one-handed without penalty; the bastard sword is a two-handed weapon that has an exception (taking a feat) that allows it to be used one-handed without penalty.

So, if I don't have the EWP feat and choose to fight with the bastard sword (a two-handed martial weapon) one-handed, do I get 1.5 STR to damage just because it is a two-handed weapon?


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HangarFlying wrote:
The bastard sword is either a one-handed exotic weapon or a two-handed martial weapon, depending on whether or not you have the EWP feat.

This is not true.

Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

Look at the italics. Use it two-handed, AS a martial weapon. That's not the same as using it AS a two-handed martial weapon.


Ssalarn wrote:


I was actually making that point the other day. The rules for weapons say that you calculate penalties for TWF with both ends of the weapon as though you were fighting with a one-handed and a light weapon, but nothing actually says you treat the double-weapon as such. Seems like technically you should be getting STR x1.5 and the -1/+3 Power Attack Ratio with both ends of a double weapon when Two-weapon fighting with it

You have it slightly off.

First, you only get the attack penalties as if it were a one-handed and light weapon. There is nothing to indicate any other change here.

Second, the off-hand weapon would apply BOTH the bonus PA and the reduction for an off-hand weapon. Thus the PA on the 'offhand' end would be x2 not x3 as both would essentially cancel each other out.

The STR bonus to damage is a grey area as both are assigned rather than modifying. You could rule it to be x1.5, x1, or x.5 and be correct depending upon your point of view. I started a thread about it once, but no one really cared to take it far.

-James


HangarFlying wrote:
do I get 1.5 STR to damage just because it is a two-handed weapon?

But it never is a two-handed weapon.

Please go back and read the entry very carefully. It takes a little effort as our minds want to add wording in that isn't there.. filling in blank spaces to conform to a preconception.

-James

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
do I get 1.5 STR to damage just because it is a two-handed weapon?

But it never is a two-handed weapon.

Please go back and read the entry very carefully. It takes a little effort as our minds want to add wording in that isn't there.. filling in blank spaces to conform to a preconception.

-James

You're so confident in yourself, did you ever stop to consider that you're the one standing on the wrong mountain top?


A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

A character can use a longsword two-handed as a martial weapon.

Neither of them are two-handed weapons, despite the fact that a character can use either one of them two-handed as a martial weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Grick wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
The bastard sword is either a one-handed exotic weapon or a two-handed martial weapon, depending on whether or not you have the EWP feat.

This is not true.

Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

Look at the italics. Use it two-handed, AS a martial weapon. That's not the same as using it AS a two-handed martial weapon.

Well, let's work through this. If I don't have the EWP, is the bastard sword a:

Simple Light Weapon? Nope.
Simple One-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Simple Two-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Simple Ranged Weapon? Nope.
Martial Light Weapon? Nope
Martial One-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Martial Ranged Weapon? Nope.
Exotic Light Weapon? Nope.
Exotic One-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Exotic Two-Handed Weapon? Nope.
Exotic Ranged Weapon? Nope.

Furthermore, don't change the context of the sentence by adding a comma in your explanation where a comma doesn't exist. It says "[use it] two-handed as a martial weapon" not "[use it] two-handed, as a martial weapon". As the sentence is written, "two-handed as a martial weapon" is the same as "as a two-handed martial weapon". Either way, that is irrelevant, because as someone who doesn't have the EWP, I treat the bastard sword as a martial weapon and must use it two-handed (i.e. it is a two-handed martial weapon for my character).


HangarFlying wrote:

If I don't have the EWP, is the bastard sword a:

Exotic One-Handed Weapon?

Yes.

HangarFlying wrote:
As the sentence is written, "two-handed as a martial weapon" is the same as "as a two-handed martial weapon".

This is not true.

The former: two-handed is how you're using it, and martial is the type of weapon. You're using it in a specific way, as a specific type of weapon.

The latter: two-handed martial is the type of weapon. You're just using it as a specific type of weapon.

They are not the same.

HangarFlying wrote:
as someone who doesn't have the EWP, I treat the bastard sword as a martial weapon and must use it two-handed

Correct.

HangarFlying wrote:
(i.e. it is a two-handed martial weapon for my character).

This is not true. It's still a one-handed weapon, you're just using it two-handed.

For example, you cannot use Overhand Chop (Ex) with an appropriately sized longsword, even if you use both hands. Using the weapon two-handed does not make it a two-handed weapon.


HangarFlying wrote:

Well, let's work through this. If I don't have the EWP, is the bastard sword a:

Exotic One-Handed Weapon?

Yep. Says so in the weapons section. Doesn't matter if you are a duck, the weapon is still an exotic one-handed weapon.

Grick was trying to help your reading, which is what is at fault here.

There is a difference between saying:

Quote:
This weapon is a two-handed martial weapon.

And

Quote:
This weapon can be used two-handed as a martial weapon.

The weapon is an exotic weapon.

The weapon is a one-handed weapon.

These never change.

A PC using the weapon in two-hands can avoid the non-proficiency penalty from not having the exotic weapon proficiency if they are proficient in martial weapons.

Your conclusions as to what the simple line is saying are simply incorrect.

-James

Sovereign Court

Sorry HangarFlying, the Bastard Sword is a One Handed Exotic weapon that can be used two handed as a martial weapon. The phrasing is very clear. It does not say it becomes a two handed martial weapon.

To parse it out, without EWP you require the Martial Weapon Proficiency and must use two hands to wield it. It remains a One Handed Exotic weapon.

I also stand on the mountain top that the Lance when used while mounted applies the -1 for +3 Power Attack ratio even though you only have one hand on it. It's a special case.

--School of Vrock


King of Vrock wrote:

I also stand on the mountain top

--School of Vrock

How many Vrocks can dance at the top of that mountain?

-James

Liberty's Edge

Apparently the argument of whether or not a bastard sword classifies as one type of weapon or another is obfuscating my intended argument regarding using a two-handed weapon one-handed.

Greatsword. There we go, can't argue about whether or not that one is a two-handed weapon.

All else being equal, the only difference between a greatsword and a lance is that you avoid any penalties of using a lance one-handed if you are mounted. So, that being said, are you trying to tell me that if I use a greatsword one-handed, I still get a 1.5 STR bonus to damage?


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james maissen wrote:
Bart Vervaet wrote:


remember that a lance while mounted is one handed, so no 1.5*str

It can be used in one hand, but does not transform into a one handed weapon. There is a difference.

Two-handed weapons get 1.5*str and x3 PA bonus. There is no caveat here that it be wielded in two hands.

A lance is still a two-handed weapon.

-James

Wait a second, from the Strength section of the PRD

Strength wrote:


Strength (Str)
...

You apply your character's Strength modifier to:

Melee attack rolls.
Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)
Climb and Swim checks.
Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like).

Strength doesn't say anything about two handed weapons, it is explicitly about how many hands you are using to wield a weapon.

Power Attack mentions two handed weapons, but also one handed weapons wielded with two hands, implying (to me) that two handed weapons are required to be wielded in two hands:

Power Attack wrote:


Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

Power attack mentions both two handed weapons and weapons wielded in two hands. So I could see an argument to be made for giving them the 1.5x power attack bonus to two handed weapons wielded one handed. Hello lances and Phalanx Soldiers.

Double weapons aren't so clear. The way I read the rules, they are treated as a one handed and a light weapon when using both sides, but as a two handed weapon when not. On the other hand, it says "attack penalties" of two weapon combat, not simply penalties:

double weapons wrote:


Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Lances wielded one handed on horseback might be a gray area for power attack, but not strength. Same for polearms wielded by Phalanx Soldiers.

Bastard Swords and Katanas are listed as Exotic One-handed weapons, so they are straight forward: They get the two handed bonus for both strength and power attack if wielded two handed, the one handed bonus if wielded one handed.

Double weapons aren't so clear, the way I interpret the part about using it as a two handed weapon when only using one side implies to me that you treat it as a light and one handed weapon when using both sides. But I can see how someone would interpret it differently.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd also love a clarification on mounted charges. The way I read it, all those mounted charge related feats say "while you are charging on a mount..." but SKR explicitly said you are not charging while your mount charges. So, by that ruling, you can use vital strike on a mounted charge, but not ride by attack or spirited charge. I prefer to play it the opposite way. But I haven't really played my cavalier since SKR made that ruling because I'm not comfortable doing something I think is against RAW in PFS games.

Liberty's Edge

Akerlof wrote:
Stuff about 1.5 STR damage being predicated on the number of hands, not the weapon.

Ahhh...thank you. Everyone has been quoting the equipment section, but completely overlooked Chapter 1.

Liberty's Edge

Akerlof wrote:
I'd also love a clarification on mounted charges. The way I read it, all those mounted charge related feats say "while you are charging on a mount..." but SKR explicitly said you are not charging while your mount charges. So, by that ruling, you can use vital strike on a mounted charge, but not ride by attack or spirited charge. I prefer to play it the opposite way. But I haven't really played my cavalier since SKR made that ruling because I'm not comfortable doing something I think is against RAW in PFS games.

Well, considering the Ride-By Attack mentions you being mounted, I don't see why you couldn't use it while mounted and charging...unless you mean to say that you couldn't use Vital Strike while using Ride-By Attack.

Ride-By Attack mentions using the "charge action", which would imply to me that Vital Strike may not be used in conjunction with Ride-By Attack, since Vital Strike is a standard action feat.

The same with Spirited Charge. In all actuality, Spirited Charge, to me, seems to be the "Vital Strike" version for those that are charging.

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