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I left 3.5 when 4e came out. I like the system. It still has its issues as far as I am concerned but there is no perfect system out there anyway so it is a moot point, and I am not interested in making this a 3e/PF vs 4e thread.
But I am leaving 4e and coming back to PF.
This is not about the actual systems. I ran a 4e game and played in 2 PF games. I have fun in both.
This is about me not supporting the "other" company anymore. I am not happy with their lack of respect for their customers. I came to lurk on these boards for a while to see how people are treated by Paizo and each other.
I was happy to see a much less poisonous forum.
I was happy to see actual members of the Paizo staff (including the CEO) come down and talk to us little people.
I love the PF world, and had been buying the APs from the first release of RotRL, but stopped getting them by mid-way through CotCT (or was it SD...which ever the third AP was, my friends have all my APs...mor eon this later)
Now that I am coming back I wanna run an AP written by Paizo for my group. As I said I have most of the first three APs yet my friends have them. One is running RotRL, the other is running SD. Most of my group has looked through these APs. I wanna run something that is new to us, and any AP othe than one of these will be new to us.
SO......
we are a varied and free groupand any of these APs would work for us....If the community would recommend ONE of these APs which one would they recommend?
EDIT: Also another player tried to run and failed at running AoW and after a semi heated discussion in which we both wanted to run SC i have bowed down and am letting him run it. So those two APs are out also,and unless I am not very interested in ST because I wanna run something in Golarion.
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I pretty much asked the same question when my group started playing Pathfinder. The answer I received was Curse of the Crimson Throne. We just finished it and are looking at starting Kingmaker. CotCT was a lot of fun and I hear good things about Kingmaker. I really don't think you can go wrong with any of the APs except for maybe Second Darkness. I haven't played it so I can't speak from experience but basically what I was told is while it isn't bad it isn't as good as the others.
Kingmaker and Legacy of Fire are my two favorites of the ones you haven't ran yet.
My advise would be Kingmaker. CoT really doesn't do it for me and SS reminds me of ST [which I hated].
Kingmaker is the one I think will be Paizo's "best" adventure for some time.
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I pretty much asked the same question when my group started playing Pathfinder. The answer I received was Curse of the Crimson Throne. We just finished it and are looking at starting Kingmaker. CotCT was a lot of fun and I hear good things about Kingmaker. I really don't think you can go wrong with any of the APs except for maybe Second Darkness. I haven't played it so I can't speak from experience but basically what I was told is while it isn't bad it isn't as good as the others.
Yeah, CotCT is good but since it has been read at least marginally by the majority of the group I wanna leave it for now.
As i mentioned we are in SD right now. I have read it is one of the weakest of the APs, though we are having no issues so far and we are in AE.
I have also read a tonne of good reviews for Km. I like the sandbox freedom of it. Does it really require a lot of work?
Kingmaker :) And get the Guide to the River Kingdomes as well as that gives a lot of background to the areas right around you if you are there :)
Here at Paizo we arn`t the little people and they actually put up Job Postings on the message boards, and contests on adventure writing and character writing, magic item design etc. and the winners get to get their ideas published :)
You know what... every AP has something a group will have difficulty with. A good DM (and this is not meant to bash DMs or players) will be able to predict what the trouble will be and do something about it...
For instance, I'm currently playing the CotCT campaign and the Scarwall bit is too much dungeon crawl for my group, so I inserted some social interaction with the two clerics of Zon-Kuthon, which overshadowed in a good way the massive amount of encounters... I partially succeeded and we got through it without the campaign suffering.
Other groups will love that part and that's just fine. You must be able as a DM to foresee problems and deal with them. I think it's unfair to claim Paizo created a 'bad' AP. Maybe some are overall better than others, but they are all generally good. You just have to take the time to prepare and have the guts to change stuff and stray from the (adventure) path :p
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Kingmaker :) And get the Guide to the River Kingdomes as well as that gives a lot of background to the areas right around you if you are there :)
I am gonna try and start my AP next weekend so I don't have the luxury to wait for books to get shipped...so I went to my FLGS as i said I was gonna and they did not have part one of Km...darnnit....I bought CoT...i know it does not get the glowing reviews of Km...but somehting draws me to it...i now have 1-4+6 in the series...and I am gonna get some of the Pf Companion .pdfs that are available.
Here at Paizo we arn`t the little people and they actually put up Job Postings on the message boards, and contests on adventure writing and character writing, magic item design etc. and the winners get to get their ideas published :)
Oh yes I did not mention those things but i did notice them in the Paizo message boards gen discussion area...and don't take the "little people" comment to heart. it is more of a comment about how the "higher ups" in the "other company" rarely if ever come on the boards to talk with the customer/fans of their products...even though I had seen many developers on other boards like EnWorld chatting it up.
It is the positive customer relations that made my decision to leave the "other company" and come back to Paizo
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You know what... every AP has something a group will have difficulty with. A good DM (and this is not meant to bash DMs or players) will be able to predict what the trouble will be and do something about it...
For instance, I'm currently playing the CotCT campaign and the Scarwall bit is too much dungeon crawl for my group, so I inserted some social interaction with the two clerics of Zon-Kuthon, which overshadowed in a good way the massive amount of encounters... I partially succeeded and we got through it without the campaign suffering.
Other groups will love that part and that's just fine. You must be able as a DM to foresee problems and deal with them. I think it's unfair to claim Paizo created a 'bad' AP. Maybe some are overall better than others, but they are all generally good. You just have to take the time to prepare and have the guts to change stuff and stray from the (adventure) path :p
So much of this is true...but it is also true that some things just "work" while others needs "some work to be done".
It is those APs that "just work", i am guessing that get the most favorable reviews. Km for example gets good reviews but if you are not into a sandbox type of game then it is not really gonna work for you.
All these APs are of amazing quality.No doubt. At the same time even a classic like RotRL is a hard AP for some because there is a breaks in the story immersion for PCs when they start to get away from Sandpoint. In SD it is the same...we were talking about it last night. My PC is helping the elves in that ruined city in book 3 AE...but really there is little holding him to helping, other than a bit of meta-gaming and one PC that still has a hook guiding him to determine what is going on with the Dark Elves and such.
i now have to play him as more of a Merc than I truly envision him. Meh what can ya do...we are still having fun and that is the bottom line.
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But I am leaving 4e and coming back to PF.
Welcome back!
Now that I am coming back I wanna run an AP written by Paizo for my group ... If the community would recommend ONE of these APs which one would they recommend?
I am loving Kingmaker. The sandbox nature of the AP brings back a lot of good memories. The adventures, as written, are great and there is plenty of room to expand by adding your own content, as much drama to the ongoing story as you and your group like and basically do whatever you like while still having the structured backbone of a published AP.
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Thanks for the welcome...
If the FLGS i went to had the first issue of Km I would have bought that guaranteed. but no such luck. they had 5 of the 6 for CoT and I am just chomping at the bit to get it rolling...so I bought them and and gonna try and start it this weekend coming (Dec 4)...can't wait...I am as giddy as a school girl right now...
I am tempted to try and track down the Map Folio...any word on how useful it is?
welcome home...
wait.. more toxic than this...? *hands out asbestos suits*
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welcome home...
wait.. more toxic than this...? *hands out asbestos suits*
Sheet this place has been a pile of hugs compared to the 4e gen diss forum in most threads...just a mention of 3e or PF gets many there in their lynching suits ready to shout you down for liking something other than 4e.
I am critical of 4e..and especially of the company...but did really like the system a lot. Yet by speaking out loud of what i did not like would get me attacked by a fair portion of the folks there.
Welcome, OilHorse.
Yes, welcome OilHorse, Lilith should be along with cookies soon. I am assuming that she still will now that she works for Paizo.
Welcome aboard, OilHorse. Don´t be mistaken, these boards saw their clashes about editions of the game as well, but luckily, this is a thing of the past. Enough of that.
Back to your question, I think that Kingmaker and Serpents Skull both look like good APs as far as I can judge that from merely reading them. Council of Thieves as well. But you really can´t compare those three as they are very different from each other. Km is all "rule your own domain", SS has an "Indiana Jones" feel to me so far, and CoT could work as a V for Vendetta-type story - it sure is a gritty story overall, with some surprises. But I haven´t read Km completely, neither SS, so take this with some caution.
Stefan
Does it really require a lot of work?
Not at all as it's in bite sized parts, especially the first couple of books.
Are your players going to be happy with the kingdom building aspect of the AP? If they're the sort of players that liked PC games like Age of Empires or Civilization then they will have a great time. Of my 4 players, only one of them isn't particularly keen on it so we have short bursts of kingdom building each time they return home.
Cookies for new folks! Yay!
Cookies for new folks! Yay!
Yummy!..oh, sorry, they weren't for me :(
/cast greater invisibility
/sneak toward cookies
/steal all cookies
/cast teleport [destination=the hell out of here]
Welcome Oilhorse! It's a friendly place, the Paizo castle.
And occasionally, a Silly Place.
Much like Camelot. :D
Welcome Oilhorse! It's a friendly place, the Paizo castle.And occasionally, a Silly Place.
Much like Camelot. :D
'
We are only silly on days that end in "y".
We are only silly on days that end in "y".
Now that´s good news - I feared that this would be often...
Thanks for the welcome...
If the FLGS i went to had the first issue of Km I would have bought that guaranteed. but no such luck. they had 5 of the 6 for CoT and I am just chomping at the bit to get it rolling...so I bought them and and gonna try and start it this weekend coming (Dec 4)...can't wait...I am as giddy as a school girl right now...
I am tempted to try and track down the Map Folio...any word on how useful it is?
CoT is actually a very good AP if you put some work into it. I ran it as the books came out. Had book 1 and 2 when we started and had I had all 6 there would be things I'd have done differently. Like the first part is shy on XP so lots of room to add stuff that would come up in part 6.
I'd go more detail but that would be spoilers.
/cast greater invisibility
/sneak toward cookies
/steal all cookies
/cast teleport [destination=the hell out of here]
Drejk looks around at a dark and twisted landscape. A snarling chocolate chip-crazed blue furred monster hurtles down at the poor thief from a nearby pile of rocks screaming "Cooooookieeeee". The last thing Drejk sees is a sign that reads "Now leaving Lot O' Fear, Hell."
You really have to be more specific when casting teleport, Drejk.
Hey there, Oilhorse! Welcome to our little loony bin!
A word of warning in advance: Most everyone here is stark raving mad. Beyond b#!#!&%. They wouldn't be let into Arkham for being too barking crazy, and Great Old Ones lose sanity points for reading their posts.
Just stick with me, I'm the only voice of sanity around here.
Or, wait, I think I got the two things mixed up again.
This is about me not supporting the "other" company anymore. I am not happy with their lack of respect for their customers.
Same here. Well, it's not just that with me, but it played a big role in my decision to stop giving wotc any money. And I used to give them lots and lots of money. Their loss.
Anyway, I think it's not uncommon here. A lot of people don't like 4e, a lot of people don't like how wotc treats people, and a lot of people hate what they did to the Forgotten Realms.
This can be your self help group, so to speak.
I came to lurk on these boards for a while to see how people are treated by Paizo and each other.I was happy to see a much less poisonous forum.
I was happy to see actual members of the Paizo staff (including the CEO) come down and talk to us little people.
A little? They're here all the time. They think it's part of their job, not a grand gesture to bestow upon the mere peasants.
And while things can get heated here, that happens a lot less often than in some boards, and doesn't get as bad as in other places, either (I'm not "carefully" avoiding calling the wizards boards by name, by the way - there's other places where things can get real bad). There may be a few jerks around here, too, but luckily they're a minority.
It really is a really great place most of the time.
we are a varied and free groupand any of these APs would work for us....If the community would recommend ONE of these APs which one would they recommend?
I'd recommend Kingmaker if you want a campaign that's a lot more free-form than one is used to with published modules, and will cover a much longer time span, too. Getting to rule a kingdom, developing it and defending it sounds quite interesting.
I'd recommend Council of Thieves for the all-urban campaign. Curse of the Crimson Throne didn't go though with it, but this one does - you're never out of the city for long (though sometimes, you're in dungeons). That offers the opportunity to have a different kind of hero, and even adventuring party.
I'd recommend Serpent's Skill for that exciting mix of jungle adventures and exploring long-lost ruins, making ground-breaking discoveries and, it the way it sounds, taking on an actual god by the end (or at least preventing his resurrection).
EDIT: Also another player tried to run and failed at running AoW and after a semi heated discussion in which we both wanted to run SC i have bowed down and am letting him run it. So those two APs are out also,and unless I am not very interested in ST because I wanna run something in Golarion.
This has nothing to do with your part: Are you a horse made of oil, or are you just oily? Anyway, may I suggest staying away from open flame? Smoking does endanger your health!
Welcome Oilhorse! It's a friendly place, the Paizo castle.And occasionally, a Silly Place.
Much like Camelot. :D
It's only a model!
But speaking of Camelot: Do you have ham&jam&spam cookies?
Thanks for the welcome...
If the FLGS i went to had the first issue of Km I would have bought that guaranteed. but no such luck. they had 5 of the 6 for CoT and I am just chomping at the bit to get it rolling...so I bought them and and gonna try and start it this weekend coming (Dec 4)...can't wait...I am as giddy as a school girl right now...
I am tempted to try and track down the Map Folio...any word on how useful it is?
Council of thieves has been a bit of a roller coaster for our group. There are some serious pitfalls in my opinons as well as some seriously glowing moments.
First of all, read all 6 parts so you have an idea of where the story will go. I misinterpreted where things would go with the adventure and the initial hooks to get characters involved were shall we say, off. So be aware of how things are going to go in the adventure. Personally I have nearly abandandoned the rails for parts 5 and 6 of the AP. I am re-writing the last 3rd to be a bit more epic (the standard arc of the last book especially seems like a letdown to me), but there is still lots of material in there for me to use in each of them.
Pay attention to the opening pitch. The players need to get invested or they are going to feel lead around by the nose. They should like Janiven especially. Monetary incentives are few throughout the whole book, and as it turns out, pure altruism could almost get diverted the wrong way too. The best way to keep it on track is to have them invested specifically in the children of westcrown. If they take ownership of that, the adventure I think will flow smoothly.
Part 2 is in fact my favorite adventure I have ever seen, played in, run or had any part in. The play was in fact the most fun and some of the best roleplaying any of us have ever done. I have a group of 7 players, and we actually wrote new lines and roles for the extra 3 characters. It was ALOT of fun if you and your group can get into it.
Pay attention to your NPCs. The story is not transparent at all to the players, so having them get to know key npc's early and continuously is pretty important to making the plot twists later on meaningful.
Overall its not the best AP out there, but its pretty good if you are willing to invest some extra time into it, and your players are on board.
I am not really a fan of the map folio. Really you dont get anything you couldn't with a color copier or a good scanner.
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Welcome Oilhorse! It's a friendly place, the Paizo castle.And occasionally, a Silly Place.
Much like Camelot. :D
Is this where we break into song?
"We're Knights of the Round Table, yo ho, yo ho...!"
:)
Welcome aboard Oilhorse from the higher ups here at Paizo!
-Lisa
Yay...As I mentioned something like this is not fostered at the "other" site...a "suit" speaking to the customer base...OMG...lolz.
Seriously tho'...Thanks Lisa for the welcome. It is nice to see someone like you come on and welcome a person onto the boards.
Thanks for everyone that has taken the moment to welcome me....I am sure I will enjoy my time on the message boards...probably as much as I enjoy the PF product
And tho' I was slow and did not get my cookies I appreciate them Lilith.
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Thanks for the welcome...
If the FLGS i went to had the first issue of Km I would have bought that guaranteed. but no such luck. they had 5 of the 6 for CoT and I am just chomping at the bit to get it rolling...so I bought them and and gonna try and start it this weekend coming (Dec 4)...can't wait...I am as giddy as a school girl right now...
I am tempted to try and track down the Map Folio...any word on how useful it is?
Council of thieves has been a bit of a roller coaster for our group. There are some serious pitfalls in my opinons as well as some seriously glowing moments.
First of all, read all 6 parts so you have an idea of where the story will go. I misinterpreted where things would go with the adventure and the initial hooks to get characters involved were shall we say, off. So be aware of how things are going to go in the adventure. Personally I have nearly abandandoned the rails for parts 5 and 6 of the AP. I am re-writing the last 3rd to be a bit more epic (the standard arc of the last book especially seems like a letdown to me), but there is still lots of material in there for me to use in each of them.
Pay attention to the opening pitch. The players need to get invested or they are going to feel lead around by the nose. They should like Janiven especially. Monetary incentives are few throughout the whole book, and as it turns out, pure altruism could almost get diverted the wrong way too. The best way to keep it on track is to have them invested specifically in the children of westcrown. If they take ownership of that, the adventure I think will flow smoothly.
Part 2 is in fact my favorite adventure I have ever seen, played in, run or had any part in. The play was in fact the most fun and some of the best roleplaying any of us have ever done. I have a group of 7 players, and we actually wrote new lines and roles for the extra 3 characters. It was ALOT of fun if you and your group can get into it.
Pay attention to your NPCs. The...
I have been reading all the advice gathered so far and since this was the last one, and had made a certain point about a pre-read I will reply here.
After reading you post I went and have started to look forward to future issues (as I mentioned I have issues 1-4 and 6 so far). I started looking through #2 and see how a little prewarning will help set the future of the campaign in motion.
i hope we have as much fun as yo did during the play...it is very original to me.
i also have already given the player a heads up that they will want to give their PCs a bit of investment to wanting to improve the city, basically as is recommended in part one.
We start this weekend. i can't wait. Tho' i also think these first two part seems short. It seems to be that it will take a handful of session or less to finish the first book...the second does not seem to be much longer. Are all the books "quick" like this?
...Thanks for the welcome...
If the FLGS i went to had the first issue of Km I would have bought that guaranteed. but no such luck. they had 5 of the 6 for CoT and I am just chomping at the bit to get it rolling...so I bought them and and gonna try and start it this weekend coming (Dec 4)...can't wait...I am as giddy as a school girl right now...
I am tempted to try and track down the Map Folio...any word on how useful it is?
Council of thieves has been a bit of a roller coaster for our group. There are some serious pitfalls in my opinons as well as some seriously glowing moments.
First of all, read all 6 parts so you have an idea of where the story will go. I misinterpreted where things would go with the adventure and the initial hooks to get characters involved were shall we say, off. So be aware of how things are going to go in the adventure. Personally I have nearly abandandoned the rails for parts 5 and 6 of the AP. I am re-writing the last 3rd to be a bit more epic (the standard arc of the last book especially seems like a letdown to me), but there is still lots of material in there for me to use in each of them.
Pay attention to the opening pitch. The players need to get invested or they are going to feel lead around by the nose. They should like Janiven especially. Monetary incentives are few throughout the whole book, and as it turns out, pure altruism could almost get diverted the wrong way too. The best way to keep it on track is to have them invested specifically in the children of westcrown. If they take ownership of that, the adventure I think will flow smoothly.
Part 2 is in fact my favorite adventure I have ever seen, played in, run or had any part in. The play was in fact the most fun and some of the best roleplaying any of us have ever done. I have a group of 7 players, and we actually wrote new lines and roles for the extra 3 characters. It was ALOT of fun if you and your group can get into it.
Pay attention
The first book is quick but it's also short on XP if you go strictly by the book. You will find your player aren't at the level they should be by the end of the adventure. I'm not sure if this was intentional but it was very helpful. It left a lot of room to put in my own spin on things to get the party really into the whole spirit of things before moving on book 2.
we are a varied and free groupand any of these APs would work for us....If the community would recommend ONE of these APs which one would they recommend?
If you haven't picked already, I'd suggest reading the blurbs for the APs you haven't already ruled out, picking 2-3 you think could be fun, and asking your players to vote among them.
I did this for a group recently -- the vote was a big success in that the players picked something (Legacy of Fire) I hadn't thought they'd pick, but still something I wanted to run (since I narrowed the field down to three I thought I would have fun with first).
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The first book is quick but it's also short on XP if you go strictly by the book. You will find your player aren't at the level they should be by the end of the adventure. I'm not sure if this was intentional but it was very helpful. It left a lot of room to put in my own spin on things to get the party really into the whole spirit of things before moving on book 2.
I did notice they had a handful of sidetreks in there to get the group some XP. Still seemed quick. I ain't really complaining about it, just something I noticed when I read it through. I think we could complete book one in a session or three at most, from a purely mechanical view.
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we are a varied and free groupand any of these APs would work for us....If the community would recommend ONE of these APs which one would they recommend?
If you haven't picked already, I'd suggest reading the blurbs for the APs you haven't already ruled out, picking 2-3 you think could be fun, and asking your players to vote among them.
I did this for a group recently -- the vote was a big success in that the players picked something (Legacy of Fire) I hadn't thought they'd pick, but still something I wanted to run (since I narrowed the field down to three I thought I would have fun with first).
Dude if I had the cash I would have bought all the issues the LFGS had for CoT, Km and SS,which was all the AP they had. Alas I could not and had to choose between Km and CoT, with CoT winning because there was more of the total AP in stock, and just as important there was no #1 for Km.
I like what I see in CoT so far.
I think I read your thread...was it yours? Either way, the thread I read was helpful in getting an idea of some of the AP out there that I had no knowledge of.