I'm also in the camp of people saying the game is pretty fine.
I can't always say the same of the players at my table - but it seems they are harder to optimize.
The bit I heard about casters being overpowered. In my group I have a monk. He tends to grapple nearly everything. As a GM I can tell you how awkward this is for casters.
Level one monk against a level three cleric in half plate. The monk just grappled her and dragged her into the harbor which thankfully was nearby.
If the caster doesn't manage to contain the monk in turn one he/she often doesn't get another spell off. Unless of course the caster is surrounded by these underpowered fighter types or other riffraff.
Just my 2p.
Thod
Don't talk about monks with CoDzilla, apparently he's either never read the class description or has and just considers them useless. I brought that point up in another thread and all I got in response was a snarky comment....
I agree with you, however. Monks are generally the anti-humanoid, but specifically they're great against enemy casters.
Daze is a cute option, however with the advent of unlimited cantrips came the altering of some spells.. daze was one of them.
pretending that dazing one of each creature on the field isn't a viable option is pretty cute too.
So while you can toss out a daze spell, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, its only a reasonable action if either your alternative actions are far worse or if trading the certainty of your action for the potential to remove the target's action is a fair trade.
Like for example...when you have no more first level spells because you single handed won the fight with color spray and there is only one or two monsters left? Serious don't pretend I didn't offer a fair situation in which to cast the spell.
Daze is a cute option, however with the advent of unlimited cantrips came the altering of some spells.. daze was one of them.
pretending that dazing one of each creature on the field isn't a viable option is pretty cute too.
So while you can toss out a daze spell, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, its only a reasonable action if either your alternative actions are far worse or if trading the certainty of your action for the potential to remove the target's action is a fair trade.Like for example...when you have no more first level spells because you single handed won the fight with color spray and there is only one or two monsters left? Serious don't pretend I didn't offer a fair situation in which to cast the spell.
I agree that Daze is valid (as are a few other cantrips) and that wizards are MUCH less one-trick-pony then they used to be.
I don't feel that either class EVER invalidates the other.
As for the claim that damage is a mook role, damage ends more combats than anything else. Also, try casting [b]black tentacles[/i] on a purple worm. A lot of the spells cited might end one combat and be completely meaningless in another.Ok since you bring up the example of a purple worm. Yes Black Tentacles is not going to work on him. However any non HD dependent will save will (+4 will save) so you're looking around charm/hold monster, fear, rainbow pattern.
Now compare this to the fighter's options.
Worm has 15 foot reach meaning it is getting an AoO on your trek into melee reach. Or hell lets be generous and not give it one with its abysmal initiative and let you charge it first. Can you do 200 damage before it goes?
Bites you with its +25 to hit for an average of 30 damage. Swallows you whole (unless have some serious CMD vs the grapple check) for another average of 36 a round (including the first). Hope you have a light slashing or piercing weapon
Charm person... 25 +5 per level range... you want to be that close? sounds like putting alot of eggs in one basket to me. He saves, you are a body bag, doesnt really sound amazingly better than the fighter.
Fear also 30ft
as for hold monster that might be your best bet, but it would be only available to you at 11th level and is your highest level spell and with the creature only being a CR12 (I have found CR+2,3 is about right for my party) not unreasonable to assume you can hold him for one round (and he continues to get saves to stop this effect which as you pointed out requires you to drop him in some other way next round) and if there is two? forget about it hop into the body bag to make it easier (Two is usually the standard for CR if I remember correctly in the book.
As for rainbow patter it is an illusion that is mind affecting (guess you were counting on no undead today or things with SR) and it also only fascinates them (which can be ended very easily by violent actions) with concentration or your level.
The latter are higher level and more viable but still have their weaknesses and at 7th to 11th level the fighter can dish some devastating damage and effects.
As for the fighter not having a light slashing or piercing weapon? ryou dont think a fighter is going to have atleast one on his person or in his boot? he is a fighter. that isnt metagaming thats not being an idiot.
EDIT: excuse me 9th for the wizard spell hold monster. But you would only get 1 per day (2 if you have 20 int) which is the best you got that day.
Also this is all provided the PW is above ground, which is not likely. Monsters are not to be played like idiots either.
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Not the entire threat. One 15 ft cone, the first 5 feet of which is you getting space to avoid AoOYou have a thing for strange limitations that aren't actually limitations.
And how many spells can you memorize. Sorcerer sure, but then you are a spell level behind at times and can't switch out.Hence the balance. Which is all...
2 or possibly 3 (more than enough at 1st level) however as BYC mentioned earlier he has infinite daze spells, you don't get to just hand that away as an illegitimate attack option.
But why the hell are we using 1st level as our example for what works and what doesn't. The game is for the most part very well balanced between the classes at 1st level. No one PC is significantly better than another. Lets take a look at 5th level
At 5th level my wizard has Stinking Cloud, Fly, Hold Person, Suggestion ("Yuh dun goofed! I suggest you go home or the consequences will never be the same!" Yippee! I win), Displacement, Invisibility and Invisibility Sphere, Web, Haste, Slow, False Life, Etc.
What can your fighter do at 5th level? Hit me. Maybe. Once. He will charge and it will hurt like hell, though I will have an average of 10 temporary hit points from False Life. On may turn I five foot step and cast Invisibility. While invisible I move and cast fly (1st of two 3rd level spells). On you turn you scratch your nuts and wonder where I went or maybe choose a random square to attack and miss. On my turn I fly up and cast stinking cloud on you.
And this is at a level where the classes still CAN compete with each other. By the time level 11 hits there is no contest as to which classes is superior.
5th Level with those spells. Ok.
Fly and Invisibility are minute per level, so you won't have those on.
False life is 2nd level
Stinking Cloud is a fort Save, so fighter has a good chance on that one. Also you have to stay out of it as well.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/stinking-cloud
Displacement is also 3rd Level is rounds per level, so not lasting long there even if I don't make the will save to disbelieve the illusion. So those would be your two third level spells at 5th level.
Web I handled above, Haste is nice for casting on a friend, but not much help for you, unless you plan on fighting.
Hold person is good, but you get a save each round if you don't make the first one
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hold-person
At 5th level the fighter has at least 6 feats, one of which will certainly be weapon specialization. So if he has a strength buff item 22 is completely reasonable. So he is attacking at +12/+7, or +10/+5 with power attack
Without power attack, 2 handed is 1d8 + 11, with Power attack is 1d8+17.
So two attacks at 1d8+17, both over 50% to hit unless you are wearing some defenses I don't see in your build. I'll assume you cast mage armor, so your AC is maybe 16 at this point?
So if you win initiative, you can cast one of your two 3rd level spells to either displace yourself and make it 50% to hit you for 5 rounds, or cast stinking cloud with a fort save, which could nauseate him for 1d4 +1 rounds.
If he wins he likely does over 20 points of damage to you, and is in position to do the same the next round after taking a 5 foot step.
If he's ranged, he can get deadly aim and do slightly less damage from far away.
Anyone else who plays fighters more want to tell me all the feats I missed?
Having run Pathfinder for a year now I've found that the ability to channel negative energy was game wrecking both for PCs and NPCs. After banning it, my games went much smoother.
Is anyone with me in the "If you read the rules and play by them the game works great" camp?
In my experience bans on abilities are usually because DM's dont know how that ability is mean to be limiting. The cleric wont use it as much if he will hurt his friends too, or if he is fighting undead, or things immune to negative energy damage (golems or other nonliving creatures).
Throw something at him with a curve ball dont back down to back down is to admit defeat!
haha just some helpful suggestions
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Having run Pathfinder for a year now I've found that the ability to channel negative energy was game wrecking both for PCs and NPCs. After banning it, my games went much smoother.
Is anyone with me in the "If you read the rules and play by them the game works great" camp?
Not if you also make sure the channel hurts friends as well as enemies, same with channel positive.
I agree it is a powerful cleric option, but I have not found it game breaking. It is only about half the damage of equal arcane spells, based on caster level.
Figher stuff
step up and disruptive if you want to metagame and murder casters your whole life for claiming to be better than you, which in the worlds of most gamer worlds on here appears to be the case.
The game works well as written. I think a lot of people who think casters are overpowered must be playing in games with "soft" GMs who allow you to rest after every encounter or argue your spells into more powerful versions.
Of course a caster seems more powerful if hes going into each encounter with all of his spells memorized and unloading them with reckless abandon because he knows he will get to rest at the end.
But see that same caster four fights later after unloading all his spells during the first two fights...
Of course there are still a few holes in the system there are always going to be we are all human and capable of mistakes. But compared to 3.X or any other D20 game the PFRPG has far fewer holes and that's the best we can really hope for right? No system is going to be perfect but as long as it keeps getting better rather than worse I for one am happy.
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Figher stuffstep up and disruptive if you want to metagame and murder casters your whole life for claiming to be better than you, which in the worlds of most gamer worlds on here appears to be the case.
Good call, definitely on step up. I thought that had higher BAB requirement. So now that Wizard is casting on the defensive, which is much harder in Pathfinder.
Disruptive I can't take until 6th level, which is fair.
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Selective Channel allows for, well, selective channeling. Undead creatures are commanded and become allies- which is really annoying when their shadows.Having run Pathfinder for a year now I've found that the ability to channel negative energy was game wrecking both for PCs and NPCs. After banning it, my games went much smoother.
Is anyone with me in the "If you read the rules and play by them the game works great" camp?
Not if you also make sure the channel hurts friends as well as enemies, same with channel positive.
I agree it is a powerful cleric option, but I have not found it game breaking. It is only about half the damage of equal arcane spells, based on caster level.
Oh undead as well. That is a hard encounter, but I think it is just one of those things where your Cleric or Paladin also has huge advantages against undead so it balances.
But it is a fair question to ask and point to make.
I like the title of this post. I think the game is great the way it is, of course anything can be improved. I really dont like fourth edition plays out more like a miniature game(just my opinion)but the one good thing they did was add House Rules which almost every gamer does. So if you think the game needs improvement House Rule it! I will say I am so tired of people arguing rules,ect. on the posts and straying away from the original posts. So happy gaming folks and yes I like the game.
Selective Channel allows for, well, selective channeling. Undead creatures are commanded and become allies- which is really annoying when their shadows.Having run Pathfinder for a year now I've found that the ability to channel negative energy was game wrecking both for PCs and NPCs. After banning it, my games went much smoother.
Is anyone with me in the "If you read the rules and play by them the game works great" camp?
Not if you also make sure the channel hurts friends as well as enemies, same with channel positive.
I agree it is a powerful cleric option, but I have not found it game breaking. It is only about half the damage of equal arcane spells, based on caster level.
In a 15 point buy or 20 point buy it is difficult to pump wisdom, con, and charisma
Selective allows you to do it to a number = Cha Mod
i guess the power of that ability is based on how many party members you have though. Still, the damage is mild and only comparable to rogue sneak attack except it is limited to living creatures and creatures that dont use negative energy.
Also it requires a will save to halve the damage :S 1/2 level plus CHa mod, so not high.
It also has the requirement to present your holy symbol, which requires a hand or something of that nature (cant carry a shield and sword and do it)
and it is a limited number of times per day 3 +Cha mod.
Its good, great even, but definitely not amazing.
As for controlling the undead, I recommend BBEG undead not five zombies :)
Selective Channel allows for, well, selective channeling. Undead creatures are commanded and become allies- which is really annoying when their shadows.Having run Pathfinder for a year now I've found that the ability to channel negative energy was game wrecking both for PCs and NPCs. After banning it, my games went much smoother.
Is anyone with me in the "If you read the rules and play by them the game works great" camp?
Not if you also make sure the channel hurts friends as well as enemies, same with channel positive.
I agree it is a powerful cleric option, but I have not found it game breaking. It is only about half the damage of equal arcane spells, based on caster level.
also control undead only lasts 1 minute/level which no two undead can be more than thirty feat apart. based on command undead.
I am confused how this ability works because it says as if command undead but then says days and such and doesnt really specify. :S
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Selective Channel allows for, well, selective channeling. Undead creatures are commanded and become allies- which is really annoying when their shadows.Having run Pathfinder for a year now I've found that the ability to channel negative energy was game wrecking both for PCs and NPCs. After banning it, my games went much smoother.
Is anyone with me in the "If you read the rules and play by them the game works great" camp?
Not if you also make sure the channel hurts friends as well as enemies, same with channel positive.
I agree it is a powerful cleric option, but I have not found it game breaking. It is only about half the damage of equal arcane spells, based on caster level.
also control undead only lasts 1 minute/level which no two undead can be more than thirty feat apart. based on command undead.
I am confused how this ability works because it says as if command undead but then says days and such and doesnt really specify. :S
Selective Channeling is basically a feat tax. But it's actually something most would take anyways.
Playing by the rules only covers half of the success formula. The other half is expectations. Let's face it, the Pathfinder system is as quirky as they come. A significant selling point for many people is that it retains the quirkiness of earlier systems. If new players (or heck old players) don't manage their expectations, it can be really easy for them to find things to be upset about.
Playing the RAW helps with some of the problems we see on the forums. A lot of them are just people who honestly should be playing a different game that meets their expectations. There are a lot of great systems out there, and Pathfinder scratches a very specific itch. Because it is so quirky, it necessarily cannot support a lot of different styles of play like people expect it to.
I really don't begrudge people their expectations. I think we should try to direct them to the game they want. They will go play it, and come back toPF when they are in the right mood (maybe never). The RPG world is bigger than this one system.
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Playing by the rules only covers half of the success formula. The other half is expectations. Let's face it, the Pathfinder system is as quirky as they come. A significant selling point for many people is that it retains the quirkiness of earlier systems. If new players (or heck old players) don't manage their expectations, it can be really easy for them to find things to be upset about.
Playing the RAW helps with some of the problems we see on the forums. A lot of them are just people who honestly should be playing a different game that meets their expectations. There are a lot of great systems out there, and Pathfinder scratches a very specific itch. Because it is so quirky, it necessarily cannot support a lot of different styles of play like people expect it to.
I really don't begrudge people their expectations. I think we should try to direct them to the game they want. They will go play it, and come back toPF when they are in the right mood (maybe never). The RPG world is bigger than this one system.
Funny thing is, I totally hate the enough class and leveling up system PF is built upon. I much prefer using a point buy to get everything. It's tough to balance no doubt, but this system feels so archaic. Playing Mutants and Masterminds a lot lately, and it's totally awesome that a player has total control. Plenty of abuses of it going around, like going tons of Super Strength, and then throwing villains into space.
It's taken the transition from 3.5 to PF for me to realize that this system I can accept because it's D&D (if not in name), but I don't think I could tolerate it in other games (like Star Wars or d20 modern especially).
Funny thing is, I totally hate the enough class and leveling up system PF is built upon. I much prefer using a point buy to get everything. It's tough to balance no doubt, but this system feels so archaic. Playing Mutants and Masterminds a lot lately, and it's totally awesome that a player has total control. Plenty of abuses of it going around, like going tons of Super Strength, and then throwing villains into space.
It's taken the transition from 3.5 to PF for me to realize that this system I can accept because it's D&D (if not in name), but I don't think I could tolerate it in other games (like Star Wars or d20 modern especially).
Then you must see what I'm talking about. Pathfinder is what you play when you want that stuff. Otherwise, it is just too much work.
At some point, you've house-ruled so much you might as well write your own RPG or play another system. The books are too heavy to go on like that.
I've played a lot of systems, and for me, PF is about nostalgia. I want the experience it offers, warts and all. Nothing else will do. I use this system by choice. Sometimes levels and hit points bother me, so I go and play a game that doesn't have them. Then I come back to PF and have fun, accepting it for what it is.
This works great for me. I just wish that people realized that there is a system out there somewhere that does what they want, and well. Pathfinder doesn't need to change to suit their needs, because Pathfinder does Pathfinder better than any other system.
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Playing by the rules only covers half of the success formula. The other half is expectations. Let's face it, the Pathfinder system is as quirky as they come. A significant selling point for many people is that it retains the quirkiness of earlier systems. If new players (or heck old players) don't manage their expectations, it can be really easy for them to find things to be upset about.
Playing the RAW helps with some of the problems we see on the forums. A lot of them are just people who honestly should be playing a different game that meets their expectations. There are a lot of great systems out there, and Pathfinder scratches a very specific itch. Because it is so quirky, it necessarily cannot support a lot of different styles of play like people expect it to.
I really don't begrudge people their expectations. I think we should try to direct them to the game they want. They will go play it, and come back toPF when they are in the right mood (maybe never). The RPG world is bigger than this one system.
Funny thing is, I totally hate the enough class and leveling up system PF is built upon. I much prefer using a point buy to get everything. It's tough to balance no doubt, but this system feels so archaic. Playing Mutants and Masterminds a lot lately, and it's totally awesome that a player has total control. Plenty of abuses of it going around, like going tons of Super Strength, and then throwing villains into space.
It's taken the transition from 3.5 to PF for me to realize that this system I can accept because it's D&D (if not in name), but I don't think I could tolerate it in other games (like Star Wars or d20 modern especially).
I like Mutants and Masterminds, but like you said the balance is way off. It's a lot better balanced than other systems like Abberent d20, but both needs a firm DM hand to keep them in line.
Also, I personally don't like the damage system, but that is preference. I see the reasoning, I just find it clunky. It makes more "sense" than hit points, but it doesn't work for how I like to play.
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Charm Monster is a 45 foot reach. if that fails run away 30 feet. I'm out of charge distance by that point.
Fear is riskier yes but the odds are still in my favor. By level 9 You'd easily expect to have at least 22 in your main stat (18 start, 2 from level ups and a +2 item) so thats a DC 20 vs a +4 will save. 70% odds of success.
Hold monster you can get about 2-3 rounds before it can roll a 16 or higher during which your big dumb melee can do battle with the creature without becoming worm food (pun intended)
Rainbow pattern I just lead the creature away with the pattern then go on my merry little way. As for the SR/undead bit. That all depends on the area where you are adventuring today. But that was a desperate little grasp at men made of straw anyways.
Charm monster isn't control monster.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/charm-monster
From Charm Person
"This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming."
So it still doesn't like your friends, it just likes you. Until you do something to it. And I hope you can speak it's language...and have a high charisma score for the checks as if it would usually eat your friends, it's still going to unless you make the check.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fear
Is a 30 foot cone, so I hope your allies make their saves...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/rainbow-pattern
Also effects allies and you have to concentrate the whole time, so you aren't doing anything else. Don't know where you are taking them, but they are coming out of it when the rounds are up...and if anyone attacks it or even threatens it, it makes a new save.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Fascinated
And hold monster is nice if you are 9th level and only fighting one thing with a low will save that will keep failing each round.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hold-person
`http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Fascinated
Charm Monster is a 45 foot reach. if that fails run away 30 feet. I'm out of charge distance by that point.
What if I am underground. And then I just burrow underground until I get to you. Which direction do you run when you cant see the worm my friend?
Fear is riskier yes but the odds are still in my favor. By level 9 You'd easily expect to have at least 22 in your main stat (18 start, 2 from level ups and a +2 item) so thats a DC 20 vs a +4 will save. 70% odds of success.
yeah and 30% of the time you are dead? sure I will take my fighter, at least he has a few actions to do something about it.
Hold monster you can get about 2-3 rounds before it can roll a 16 or higher during which your big dumb melee can do battle with the creature without becoming worm food (pun intended)
oh so you have a fighter there? I thought they sucked and couldnt do melee with a purple worm. That is codependency if I ever saw it :)
Also it is still a 5th level spell and that is the best you get until 11th level.
Rainbow pattern I just lead the creature away with the pattern then go on my merry little way. As for the SR/undead bit. That all depends on the area where you are adventuring today. But that was a desperate little grasp at men made of straw anyways.
my point on rainbow pattern is that this spell is a very specific spell that almost no caster would prepare at the level of a purple worm BECAUSE they could face undead and high will saved creatures that would laugh at said illusion. You stating that a wizard would have said spell always prepared is a strawman argument if i ever heard one sir.
Also it just fascinates the creature, guess you better keep up the concentration for a while or else it might come back and you know... kill you?
good try though.
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Playing by the rules only covers half of the success formula. The other half is expectations. Let's face it, the Pathfinder system is as quirky as they come. A significant selling point for many people is that it retains the quirkiness of earlier systems. If new players (or heck old players) don't manage their expectations, it can be really easy for them to find things to be upset about.
Playing the RAW helps with some of the problems we see on the forums. A lot of them are just people who honestly should be playing a different game that meets their expectations. There are a lot of great systems out there, and Pathfinder scratches a very specific itch. Because it is so quirky, it necessarily cannot support a lot of different styles of play like people expect it to.
I really don't begrudge people their expectations. I think we should try to direct them to the game they want. They will go play it, and come back toPF when they are in the right mood (maybe never). The RPG world is bigger than this one system.
Funny thing is, I totally hate the enough class and leveling up system PF is built upon. I much prefer using a point buy to get everything. It's tough to balance no doubt, but this system feels so archaic. Playing Mutants and Masterminds a lot lately, and it's totally awesome that a player has total control. Plenty of abuses of it going around, like going tons of Super Strength, and then throwing villains into space.
It's taken the transition from 3.5 to PF for me to realize that this system I can accept because it's D&D (if not in name), but I don't think I could tolerate it in other games (like Star Wars or d20 modern especially).
I like Mutants and Masterminds, but like you said the balance is way off. It's a lot better balanced than other systems like Abberent d20, but both needs a firm DM hand to keep them in line.
Also, I personally don't like the damage system, but that is preference. I see the reasoning, I just...
M&M has one balancing factor that overrides a lot of desire to make insanely strong characters. That is there's virtually no rewards. Other than power points, the system doesn't support giving items to players. I really like that because I'm much more interested in RPing most of the time, and I dislike the bookkeeping of buying items, making items, and spending time on items. I don't even really care if I get items, other than if I don't the mechanics part of the game catches up.
I'm not sure if M&M can be balanced, because the scale of the game can be truly epic (traveling at the speed of light is pretty damn cool, though the mechanics balances it out in the end AFAIK). But I really haven't bothered examining the system in depth, so how sure how bad things really are. I'm sure it's not good though.
Name the spell, I'll show you the limitation.
This isn't a good argument.
Just because something has limitations doesn't mean it's still not generally better than another thing. Just because color spray (for example) is only completely awesome in 90% of first level PC fights doesn't mean that it's completely balanced because it falls down in the other 10%.
Displacement is also 3rd Level is rounds per level, so not lasting long there even if I don't make the will save to disbelieve the illusion. So those would be your two third level spells at 5th level.
Uh... since when do you get a save to disbelieve displacement?
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Ok forums ate my last post and I'm not going to retype it all so heres the short version:
Charm. Monster has been stopped from eating me. Done.
Burrowing: Burrowing is not earthglide. A creature that size is going to displace a lot of earth. Burrowing is also not teleportation.
Fear: Please do not insult my intelligence by assuming I'm traveling with a pack of suicidal lemmings that instantly block any route to hitting a creature with a cone spell.
Rainbow pattern: Standard action. Maintain spell. Move action, 30ft. Spell also lasts rounds per level after concentration. Fascinate worm. Maintain spell, walk away.
1. Will eat your friends, who will attack him, which will give him new saves...repeat until eating you.
2. Fear, so everyone is holding? Hope you beat the worm for initiative, because you have to get withing 30 feet of a creature with reach, so you'll be 15 feet away spreading the effect on all sides.
3. Um...walk where? It's rounds per level broken if he is attacked, so you are going to walk it away from everyone and do what for the rounds per level before it gets fascinated?
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Uh... since when do you get a save to disbelieve displacement?
Displacement is also 3rd Level is rounds per level, so not lasting long there even if I don't make the will save to disbelieve the illusion. So those would be your two third level spells at 5th level.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/displacement
You are right, my mistake. Missed the harmless part. However you would get a save after a miss.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Illusion
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
I think the game plays fine by the rules. It also plays fine if you tweak the rules. Basically if you and your players have fun you are doing it right.
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Name the spell, I'll show you the limitation.This isn't a good argument.
Just because something has limitations doesn't mean it's still not generally better than another thing. Just because color spray (for example) is only completely awesome in 90% of first level PC fights doesn't mean that it's completely balanced because it falls down in the other 10%.
But considering the cost of the spell slot, the fact that it can't be used against something engaged in melee with an ally without also effecting them, and the 25% chance it will save even with a 1 will save vs the effectiveness of a non-caster class (as laid out above) shows it isn't anything exceptional vs other classes at the same level.
Which is the point.
When you look at spells in the context of the level they will be available and used, as well as what other classes can do at the same level, that is the point.
I keep reading thread after thread about "The Problems" and "Gaps" but I find that whenever I have though something overpowered, I read the rule and realized I missed a limitation, or I watch it in game and realize it doesn't actually work as well on the board as it does on the page.
And on the other side, when I thought a class to weak, I saw someone else play it using a build that made it work really well, using combination that had not occurred to me to be really powerful and effective in game.
And in the games I run, each class seems to be able to do well enough most of the time, with moments where they absolutely shine and moments where they are vulnerable.
Does anyone else fear power creep more than any perceived weaknesses in given classes?
Does anyone else just think people who complain about classes being weak haven't put in the book time to see how the class works. And does anyone else think the people who claim god builds generally have really flawed characters with huge exposed weaknesses?
Is anyone with me in the "If you read the rules and play by them the game works great" camp?
Actually, I just wrote about this in my LiveJournal last night after a good session. :) In a nutshell...
Well, I gotta give props to the many people who've worked on 3.x and Pathfinder ... the system works. It has its problems, all systems do, but it's remarkable how well it can perform with a minimum of tweaking.
We finally ran another session of "Revenge of the Giants" this evening, and I've been concerned about how the encounters would go. The players have some sick stats, all perfectly legal -- the fighter, for instance, has an AC of 28 and a full attack of +22/+17/+12 (2d4+12, crit 15-20) before anything like haste comes into the picture.
So whenever I'm designing encounters and looking at the party's stats, compared to those of the monsters and other foes, I often worry that the players will simply roll right over the opposition. And sometimes they do, but usually it's when I want them to. They still have to be "on game" for most encounters, and in fact they're often more worried about their own survival than I am. Granted, they can't see how many hit points the monsters have or know what other things may come bursting through the door, which helps. But it does in fact seem that, for this group at least, with close-to-recommended wealth levels and encounter XP budgets following the recommended charts, it really does work.
-The Gneech
PS: How did the fighter-vs-wizard nonsense leak into this thread? Bleah. Aren't there enough threads having that same argument already?
-The Gneech
But considering the cost of the spell slot, the fact that it can't be used against something engaged in melee with an ally without also effecting them, and the 25% chance it will save even with a 1 will save vs the effectiveness of a non-caster class (as laid out above) shows it isn't anything exceptional vs other classes at the same level.
I know this is going to come out combatative, but I can't even imagine how beyond incompetent the people you play with are if they continually get in the way of throwing a Color Spray.
Do things happen, occasionally, so that they should or need to and it can't be helped, and there's no room for you to move so that you can make it work? If it's more than about 1% of the time, I honestly can't fathom what's wrong with the people you've played with. Unless they're six years old there's no excuse for it.
Edited to add: +1 Will save is kind of a lot for first level, honestly. Not that some things won't have that or higher, but there's an awful lot ot of +0 or even -1 Will save enemies.
God forbid you build a fey sorcerer and force those monsters to make a DC 20 Will against Sleep instead. (And yes, full round cast, but also what amounts to a huge range for a level 1 spell.)
And, yeah, when the huge centipede trundles up neither of those spells has anything for it -- but in my experience that doesn't make the guy playing the level 1-2 fighter feel a lot better that he finally gets to do something after watching the sorcerer decisively win every encounter for 20+ straight realtime hours of play.
Ok forums ate my last post and I'm not going to retype it all so heres the short version:
Charm. Monster has been stopped from eating me. Done.
Burrowing: Burrowing is not earthglide. A creature that size is going to displace a lot of earth. Burrowing is also not teleportation.
Fear: Please do not insult my intelligence by assuming I'm traveling with a pack of suicidal lemmings that instantly block any route to hitting a creature with a cone spell.
Rainbow pattern: Standard action. Maintain spell. Move action, 30ft. Spell also lasts rounds per level after concentration. Fascinate worm. Maintain spell, walk away.
really now? so if I am below the surface a good 50ft you can still tell exactly where I am? that's news to me.
You still fail to argue how having rainbow pattern prepared at that level isn't a fallacy, especially since a majority of the creatures of that level of play either don't need a save or have SR.
You are still trying to say Fear is viable with a 30% chance of death? really?
Charm still means he is going to eat, just not you. You also need to charisma check him not to eat your allies, and since you are a wizard I highly doubt you pumped Charisma over say Dex or Con...
he would also get a +5 if anyone in your party attacked him before you, or if he was grappling and eating anyone, or basically any other scenario where you dont go first, which is a big assumption...
Also you fail to acknowledge the most important part of the spell... speaking its language. Purple worms dont speak a thing, therefor they would be very difficult to communicate your demands.
Hardly a viable option, if it takes you a few rounds to get the thing under control that is already too late and you could be dead by then either by your allies attacking or you doing some other action that might cause harm.
I would never logically let you as a DM Charm a monster with that low an intelligence with no language in common easily. You would need some serious pantomiming skills my friend, it even says that under the spell.
Rainbow pattern to avoid an encounter is not beating the monster also, it is avoiding it for a short period of time. If he found you once, he will find you again, and next time he might be underground (why wouldn't he be in the first place) where your spell doesn't even function.
Once again. Good try.
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What are you smoking and where can I get some?Uh... since when do you get a save to disbelieve displacement?
Displacement is also 3rd Level is rounds per level, so not lasting long there even if I don't make the will save to disbelieve the illusion. So those would be your two third level spells at 5th level.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/displacement
You are right, my mistake. Missed the harmless part. However you would get a save after a miss.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Illusion
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
The rules are clear.
The spell
"The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. Unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location and negates the miss chance."
Meaning it creates an illusion that you are two feet away from the actual location you are at. This illusion can be seen through using disbelief.
Under illusion if you interact with an illusion, you get a save to disbelieve it.
See why I say the rules work fine if you follow them, and casters aren't overpowered.
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But considering the cost of the spell slot, the fact that it can't be used against something engaged in melee with an ally without also effecting them, and the 25% chance it will save even with a 1 will save vs the effectiveness of a non-caster class (as laid out above) shows it isn't anything exceptional vs other classes at the same level.I know this is going to come out combatative, but I can't even imagine how beyond incompetent the people you play with are if they continually get in the way of throwing a Color Spray.
Do things happen, occasionally, so that they should or need to and it can't be helped, and there's no room for you to move so that you can make it work? If it's more than about 1% of the time, I honestly can't fathom what's wrong with the people you've played with. Unless they're six years old there's no excuse for it.
Here is the issue. It is a 15 foot cone, and you have to cast it from at least 5 feet back or you provoke an AoO
This means your cast is going to include most of the space around them.
So anything next to them gets hit, and you have to be within 15 feet so if it makes the save you are in trouble.
What are you smoking and where can I get some?Uh... since when do you get a save to disbelieve displacement?
Displacement is also 3rd Level is rounds per level, so not lasting long there even if I don't make the will save to disbelieve the illusion. So those would be your two third level spells at 5th level.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/displacement
You are right, my mistake. Missed the harmless part. However you would get a save after a miss.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Illusion
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
The rules are clear.
The spell
"The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. Unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location and negates the miss chance."Meaning it creates an illusion that you are two feet away from the actual location you are at. This illusion can be seen through using disbelief.
Under illusion if you interact with an illusion, you get a save to disbelieve it.
See why I say the rules work fine if you follow them, and casters aren't overpowered.
You don't get a save against displacement whether or not you interact with it. You are confusing the name of the school displacement is under with the spell type.
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Well I may not know exactly where it is but I do see where the earth is being displaced by the creature gives a pretty good idea where it is on a 2 dimensional scale. I may not know how deep it is but I know its there. Start running or pop a fly or a levitate scroll. also it doesn't know where I am until its 60 feet away anyways.
Well its a good thing I'm not using common I'm using MAGIC. Charming something in a language, isn't magic its diplomacy.
Read the spell.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/charm-monster
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/charm-person
"You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming."
And what is the minimum intelligence score to understand language?
Huh...so you are going to tell it what now?
Here is the issue. It is a 15 foot cone, and you have to cast it from at least 5 feet back or you provoke an AoO
This means your cast is going to include most of the space around them.
So anything next to them gets hit, and you have to be within 15 feet so if it makes the save you are in trouble.
And yet in practice it's not that hard to aim it well. Occasionally you roll the dice and cast defensively to do it or chance the AoO, depending on what seems smart.
Well I may not know exactly where it is but I do see where the earth is being displaced by the creature gives a pretty good idea where it is on a 2 dimensional scale. I may not know how deep it is but I know its there. Start running or pop a fly or a levitate scroll. also it doesn't know where I am until its 60 feet away anyways.
Well its a good thing I'm not using common I'm using MAGIC. Charming something in a language, isn't magic its diplomacy.
Oh sure some rule somewhere that you read completely invalidates my burrowing movement. He can still charge you from underground after getting just underneath you using his tremor sense.
As for the levitate comment that is fine, run away, that doesnt mean you get the encounter and all your friends on the ground can still you know die. also your levitation isnt very quick, so when you levitate up the worm could undoubtedly move to eat you straight out of the air using his upward movement out of the ground and his reach.
Lastly, I am not even going to dignify your response about "language magic" with a response. go read the spell, it specifically states that. specifically. like right under the spell. no hunting necessary.
Guess third time wasn't the charm. Good try.
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You don't get a save against displacement whether or not you interact with it. You are confusing the name of the school displacement is under with the spell type.
Displacement is an illusion, specifically it is a glamer.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Illusion
"Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear."
"Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus."
What part of the rule do you disagree with my interpretation of?
Is it an illusion? Yes, and a specific type.
You normally don't get a save unless you study closely or interact with an illusion. Then you do.
It is a very straightforward rule to me, specific only to illusions. I guess your group doesn't use the rule, which is fine. But there it is in black and white.
It even has will negates in the spell.