From the online PRD: "Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."
I don't think that it's explicit enough. How do you describe such an action? How do you envision a creature doing this? How are the attacks delivered?
- personally, I imagine that the creature runs up to its target, jumps at it, and lands with all its natural weapons targeting its prey. Once.
And, especially, could a humanoid do the same?
- in fact... yes and no. I can see a human striking once with both hands/weapons upon charging, but not a "regular" full-attack (as in "several attacks with the same weapon"). Case could be made if the character has more than two weapons (armor spikes, etc) but not more than once per weapon. Otherwise, it's not really a charge, is it?
Pounce has been used (and abused) in some builds (and I'm honest enough to say I've used one), but its wording needs work. Allowing high-levels fighting types to deliver something like 4 attacks (or more) after running twice their speed is a bit much, I think.
So... proposal: "Pounce: some creatures can launch themselves at their prey during a charge, delivering a terrible attack with each claw.
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make one attack for each wielded weapon or natural weapon (including unarmed strike). When applying this ability to an animal or a monster, use its 'Full Attack' entry (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
In the exceptional case of a character having this ability, they can use a full-attack but can't strike more than once with each weapon. For most humanoid characters, having two hands, that equates to two attacks (incurring two-weapon fighting penalties). Characters with a bite attack can use it as a secondary natural attack. Characters with armor spikes can use them as an off-hand attack if they don't use their regular off-hand attack, or as a secondary natural attack. A monk can deliver a flurry of blows, but they must make each attack with a different limb, for a maximum total of 4 attacks (for this purpose, both legs count as one attack).
Any creature using Pounce as their charge action is slightly unbalanced as they return to their feet, suffering a -4 to their Armor Class (instead of the regular -2 from charging). This is negated if the prey has fallen prone as a result of the attack."
Thoughts?
Why limit Pounce like that? I mean, getting off 4 successful attacks in 5-6 seconds with a bow is pretty unrealistic, but pretty much every archer build can do so by level 11 (2 from BAB, 1 from Manyshot, 1 from Rapid Shot).
If you really need a fluff reason for Pounce working, just pretend that it makes the attacker run faster and swing faster, instead of just swinging their weapon faster. You cover twice the distance in a single "move action" (in quotes since it isn't a true move action) and do double, triple or quadruple the attacks in a "standard action". So, pounce is sort of like a specialized Haste. You get extra attacks (if you have them) and some extra linear move. Keep in mind that this movement needs to be in a straight line, unlike the extra movement granted by Haste.
Making it require multiple weapons to utilize is a nice boon for TWFers, but the classes with access to Pounce (or Pounce-like abilities, such as Trick Riding) rarely go with TWF, but rather prefer a single big weapon.
The gist is basically, why further gimp the few good things that melee gets when wizards and clerics can regularly break the laws of the universe without anyone batting an eye. The Pathfinder/D&D worlds that we all play in function under very different levels of "reality". Pounce works like it does because the rules of Pathfinder physics says that it does.
Have you ever seen a samurai movie where the hero leaps through the air towards his target, and lands on the other side while the opponent falls apart into multiple pieces?
That's how I envision this kind of thing. Human charges, human busts out the badass multiple attacks in 'an instant' and ends the charge in badass pose :D
Me and you agree too much.
I hate you.
I agree with kyrt-ryder and Midnightoker that there are examples of humans using a single weapon to make attacks in very rapid succession.
I like to imagine it as a difference of technique rather than just speed. If you wield a weapon correctly, you can get more use out of it. For example, knife fighters frequently use a reverse hold. (Grasp the handle of the knife so that the blade sticks out in the direction of your pinky finger rather than the direction of your thumb.) By doing so, they can make powerful slicing attacks with a forehand, backhand, or uppercut motion, and stab with either a backhand or hammer motion.
On the other hand, if you've found an unbalancing rule and you're looking for a house rule to fix it, go right ahead. I'd like to see the exact tactic you're trying to correct though.
Thanks for all the comments.
Nerfing this ability is not really my intention here, I'm more interested with the fluff. I'm trying to "see" how the attack is done. For an animal or a monster striking with natural attacks, the full-attack is done with one attack per limb. Delivering this attack at the end of a charge can be seen as "pouncing" with all limbs forward, thus delivering all the attacks at the same time, which is coherent with a charge. With this in mind, I have difficulties seeing a humanoid being able to deliver the same kind of action with all his iterative attacks, especially if said humanoid uses only one weapon.
But the quotation about the samurai being trained enough to do so alleviates this a little, except that the wording of the charge action specifies that the end position must be in the closest square to the target, not a "badass pose" beside or behind them. That looks like a ride-by or flyby attack, in fact, except that it's delivered on foot.
What I find strange is that a humanoid with this ability is able to squeeze as many attacks in a charge action (which means after moving twice) than what they do while not moving. In action economics, Pounce gives the equivalent of two full-round actions in one round. If characters are able to do that, shouldn't they be able to do more attacks if they don't move at all? We could perhaps merge the Pounce and Haste effects, by saying that one allows the other: being Hasted would allow either an extra attack in a full-attack (as already indicated), or move and then full-attack, or charge with a full-attack (=pounce).
From a balance point of view, once a character has Pounce, chances are that he'll do that all the time, bringing the non-pounce fighters to shame. The only drawback would be the AoOs incurred by leaving a monster to charge another (or jump/charge with Leap Attack and/or Mantis Leap and/or other feats). But a monk can be quite skilled at evading these attacks (mobility, acrobatics, no armor check penalty).
Have you ever seen a samurai movie where the hero leaps through the air towards his target, and lands on the other side while the opponent falls apart into multiple pieces?
That's how I envision this kind of thing. Human charges, human busts out the badass multiple attacks in 'an instant' and ends the charge in badass pose :D
Agreed...but if I had my way, I'd divorce the "move & slice into ribbons" maneuver from the "jump & claw with all 4 feet" maneuver. Otherwise you end up with weird things like a monk polymorphing into a tiger in order to headbutt his opponent 4 times on a charge (not necessarily overpowered, mind you, just weird).
"Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."
I don't think that it's explicit enough. How do you describe such an action? How do you envision a creature doing this? How are the attacks delivered?
Never owned a cat eh? I don't really disagree with you though.
People shouldn't Pounce, in my opinion.
Allowing that sort of craziness in the first place was probably just a response to the limitations of "move-swing once; repeat". We have better solutions now.
No. Why make melee worse because of fluff issues? They get one full round of actions (a move action and a non-crap attack option) and it takes some very specific builds to make it worthwhile. Fluff it however you want; don't weaken one of the few methods melee has to maintain parity at higher levels.
Specific builds, yes but not quite expensive. See "lion totem" (barbarian alternate class feature, from Complete Champion) which gives Pounce in exchange for the +10' move. A measly level dip and you get it?
Fluff however I want, OK. That's the benefit of Rule 0 anyways ;-)
But charge as a full round action is two move actions plus the charge attack, which is a full-attack when we consider Pounce. Two moves = full round ; regular full attack = full round.
Additionally, charges can also be done as a standard action if you can't take a full-round action, in which case you only have the single move plus the attack. Pouncing in this particular case seems borderline illegal, rules-wise (to deliver a full-attack, you ought to use your full-round action to do so).
Maintain parity? Between what and what?
Also, the non-pounce fighters are already shamed, because if they've got 6+ BAB and aren't able to make full use of it, the Pounce Fighters are laughing at them.
The golden rule of balance is "if, given the choice between options A and B, everyone will take A, then A isn't balanced and probably overpowered"
...unless you were being sarcastic, in which case I agree with you :-)
Never owned a cat eh? I don't really disagree with you though.People shouldn't Pounce, in my opinion.
Allowing that sort of craziness in the first place was probably just a response to the limitations of "move-swing once; repeat". We have better solutions now.
In fact, I do own a cat. These questions were written to provoke thoughts and parallels between how animals do it, and how humans would do it if/when allowed.
If someone happens to know, what are the various ways a PC can acquire Pounce?
If someone happens to know, what are the various ways a PC can acquire Pounce?
IIRC, the 3.5 Fighter's Handbook gives a couple options, go ogle it. From memory:
- Races of the Wild contains "Catfolk Pounce", a racial feat that gives you Pounce but only on flat-footed targets- Complete Champion contains "Lion Totem", which I've already explained
- (I don't know if it's in said handbook, still...) Polymorph into a creature with Pounce
There are probably other means (magic items, etc.) if others want to chime in
The golden rule of balance is, "if, given the choice between options A and B, everyone will take A, and B is a load of crap like only getting one BS attack per round, then A is the superior option and probably should be something included in the core rules".
Otherwise known as "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things".
Ha! Oh my god, I laughed out loud at that one.
Pounce - and Lion Totem Barbarian - were both utterly broken.
They were broken in that they were pretty much a necessity, and thus they were a "level tax" in order to play a combat dude and still have fun.
They were broken in that they were needed, and yet still had to be "bought" in a way that was the antithesis of fun and character building.
So yeah, they were broken...and the way to fix it is to give it away free.
I hadn't thought of this: how do you describe the action of a mount pouncing? If it's as I envisioned and the beast jumps and lands all its attacks on its prey(s), the rider ought to make a relatively difficult Ride check, IMHO. And allow actions depending on the check result: if barely made, Standard; if made by 10 or more, full-round (including full-attack). Same as before, these are just 2cp worth of thoughts and not intending to gimp the mounted warriors, just trying to "see" what happens and the logical consequences.
FWIW, I just saw the "mounted skirmisher" feat and realized that full-attacking from the back of a charging mount isn't normally authorized.