Atanas's page

The Mighty Grognard wrote:

Because the original poster did not post his/her original stats, has a bunch of flaws in design and did not provide the math behind all the numbers in an easily comprehendable format, following entire thread is nothing more than an exercise in futility.

Successful Will save (DC 12) negates trap. In which case the following message will appear:

** spoiler omitted **

+googleplex

This is comparing apples to small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. If you want to have a reasonable debate about whether something is overpowered or not, you can't have a bunch of house rules and ignored core rules in your build. If the OP stuck to the rules in the Core Rulebook and Advanced Players Guide and then explained the build, there may be a real argument, but now you have an over-maxed non-core build which is, of course, going to be overpowered.

Looking at what the OP posted so far, more than likely the GM is allowing the wizard player to use the 3.5 Spell Compendium, Complete Mage, and PHB II, plus Dragon Magic and all those other splatbooks not to mention whatever the guy was allowed to use by 3rd party publishers along with Pathfinder books, which is a sure-fire way to stack bonus on top of bonus, especially if the rule that the same type of bonuses (except for dodge bonuses and un-typed bonuses) never stack is ignored by everyone at the table.

And hey, if that's the type of game you guys like playing more power to you, I'm not saying it's badwrongfun, I'm just saying it's not comparable to PFRPG core rules.

Backwards-compatibility, to me as a GM, is that if a player wants to use something from OGL or 3.5 to help flesh out their character concept then I will let them use it if it isn't counter-intuitive to the changes put in place by the Pathfinder RPG to fix what was "wrong" with 3.5, and more than likely it will go through some type of revision by me so that it is balanced before I allow it in my game....

As I stated initially, the entire group recently switched to PFRPG, so I suppose it's natural that we use 3.5 rules for what we haven't discovered has been changed. That said however, rules are rules because they make the game fun and challenging (and also we're not munchkins). So no 3rd party materials (they're rubbish), and we're well aware that enhancement bonuses etc do not stack (I indicated this in an earlier post). Not sure what you consider a splatbook, but we only used books endorsed by WOTC for our games (and banned a great number of those from house games for nonsense ( see monkeygrip )).

And also reitteration: 1 flaw and the feat gained form said flaw balance out equally. This was a choice for character concept, and no boon was gained by this.

This thread has become redundant, imho. Thanks to all who posted constructively. And thanks for linking the pathfinder reference document; had not seen that before.

right but If your doing the 'this is what my character can be at its very best' example which i think would have involved 8? 9? rounds of buffing.

and then saying Class X which can recieve all those buffs and one of his party members can easily give the to him. The part ive /always/ found friutrating about this X vs fighter threads is they /always/ treat the fighter/barb whatever as unbuffed.

so if your Spending 9 rounds buffing and your parties barb/fighter isnt going into the fight with any or only some of those buffs. the problem isnt the class but group strategy.

Ive actualy only ever gone that buffed with my barbarian once for a boss fight. And then Promptly got blinded. so that was a bit of a downer :P

</3 blind. Evil glitterdust. But only 5-6 rounds of buffing total, 3 rounds for just the offensive buffs (enlarge, bull's strength, haste)

Midnightoker wrote:

mmmmmmmmm

America Loves Kraft.

LoL. Be Nice. He is trying to power it down so I think it is an issue of rules being misunderstood, as opposed to munchkinsim going on.

I don't understand the kraft statement, but no munchkinism here?

No, I didn't read the long description of the spell, only the description under the summoner entry.

Bond Senses (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a summoner
can, as a standard action, share the senses of his eidolon,
hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, and touching everything
the eidolon does. He can use this ability a number of
rounds per day equal to his summoner level. There is no
range to this effect, but the eidolon and the summoner
must be on the same plane. The summoner can end this
effect as a free action.

It would work better w/ blindsense, as opposed to blind-fight, naturally.

The only real point I had hoped to make initially, is that pure melee classes can't match damage on a class that can buff itself and melee w/ comparable gear. (Meaning through feats or class abilities)

Is this not the case in PFRPG? If not, list the abilities/feats available?

Just to double-check: My numbers are correct, yes?
[Edit:/ Addition: I was speaking just fighter vs. summoner (no eidolon). Things got off topic for a while.

yes, they can recieve every buff you used as an example there except shield i believe.. The barbarian i play in our Sunday game with all those buffs would be.. 28 str (18 base +4 rage, +2 Enlarge,+4 bull strength) so +19 to hit (+9 bab, +9 strength, +2 enhancement, -2 Pa, +1 haste) for 3d6 +24 (+13 for strength, +2 for enhancement +9 for Pa)

then bite for +12 1d6+7 (math on the bite may be off im doing this off the top of my head

for +19/+19/+14 3d6+24 and +12 1d6+7

Or claws for +17/+17/+17 1d8+15 and bite for +7

and /alot/ of hps compared to the Summoner/eidolon.
Im sure people better with the numbers can do better than this though.If my char was built ont he Same point buy as yours it would probly have 30? strength at least. with all those buffs

The point I tried to make is that the barb cant buff himself, while a summoner can (given time, obviously)

I'd have to call my DM/other players for the specifics regarding party buffs (+10 attack, +6 damage), although the party wizard has been gaming for like 8-10 years, and is almost never wrong about anything in my experience thus far.

Atanas wrote:

mdt wrote:

The problem with 'Don't sweat the details, it's broke, see!' is that the devil is in the details. As has been pointed out, the details are wrong, take 6 or 7 details that are off, and your eidelon's power goes down, so does your summoner.

And, as to the 3.5 stuff, that can't be blamed on the class. 3.5 stuff was borked to begin with. You have to be careful with mixing the two, they can have unintended side effects.

I was under the impression that pathfinder was supposed to be compatible w/ the majority of 3.5 materials. Is this not the case?

Power attack: Gives 1.5x str modifier when using a 2 handed weapon, for +6 additional damage, with -2 to attack

No stat enhancing equipment.
He has a vampire torc, boots of...

It is compatible, but that only means they play well together rule wise. It does not mean you can add anything and keep things balanced. 3.5 was not even balanced with 3.5 all the time. Every time you add a splatbook to any system powercreep sets in. That is why DM's should be careful about what they let into their games. In order to judge balance it is best to stick with the core rules.

I think the only thing in my initial post not in PFRPG books was hold the line, I think.

Atanas wrote:

[Eidolon]Feats: Power Attack, Blindfight*, Cleave, Combat Reflexes
[*Summoner gains this a limited number of rounds per day via "Shared Senses." Handy against assassins]

Assuming you mean the Bond Senses ability (since Share Senses isn't a Summoner spell), there's nothing that says you can do that.

Nothing says you can't, and it makes sense that it would work that way, seeing as the eidolan isn't a mindless being. ;)

Not to mention man you ignored a very valid post I have yet to see you counter by AlanM... I am waiting to see where your numbers are because that is definitely a little off, I ran them myself to be sure.

I broke the numbers all the way down, so all can see the crunch. They look correct on my screen.

But anyways. Maybe its just overpowered for our group. We're all pretty decent at crunching numbers (think we have to read some fine print for PFRPG materials, to avoid conflict of rules, and decide what we like best), etc.

Don't all casters buff before combat? ;)
[Edit:/ Most of the buffs i listed are minute per level]
the point is that this build is powerful solo. Yes it buffs itself, but barbs rage for a bonus to stats and damage. Summoner can too, if he wants to give up casting for X rounds
[EditEdit:/ Extend spell ftw.]
And stoneskin is a luxury, not every combat. Displacement is every combat imho.

But regardless. Any barb/fighter builds that dish 3d6+18 at level 9?

The problem with 'Don't sweat the details, it's broke, see!' is that the devil is in the details. As has been pointed out, the details are wrong, take 6 or 7 details that are off, and your eidelon's power goes down, so does your summoner.

And, as to the 3.5 stuff, that can't be blamed on the class. 3.5 stuff was borked to begin with. You have to be careful with mixing the two, they can have unintended side effects.

I was under the impression that pathfinder was supposed to be compatible w/ the majority of 3.5 materials. Is this not the case?

And yes, i see i should have reviewed the changes to eidolon evolution costs more thoroughly. Large initially cost only 3 points, and slam 2. Fortuitous that this difference balances out for me, so nothing lost here.

No, the next damage step up from 2d8 is 3d6, unless that differs from 3.5 as well.
Yes, this is a self-buffing build. And yes he receives a +10 to hit from party buffs and songs. [abjurer specialist, cleric and bard in party]

Attack rolls: +6 BAB, +8 Str, +1 Haste, +1 masterwork weapon =16
16: -1 size, -2 power attack =13
But you're correct, the attack given by haste is at full BAB, so...that's an improvement.

Power attack: Gives 1.5x str modifier when using a 2 handed weapon, for +6 additional damage, with -2 to attack

Damage: 3d6 (weapon) +12 (1.5 str for 2 handed weapon) +6 (power attack) for 3d6 +18. +6 more to damage via party buffs. (yes the bonuses stack; ie. not all enhancement bonuses)

Bite: Sorry, typo on my part. not copy/pasting here.
Flaw: Didn't realize flaws weren't part of PFRPG. -2 to wisdom for char concept (hes not sane), feat to balance the save out.

And I did botch the order of the feats. Char creation at level 6. I believe the combination of feats is possible, however, if the order is changed. Hold the Line grants extra AoO's. Although this is nice, none affect the actual damage per hit or round. Nor do the other feats.

No stat enhancing equipment.
He has a vampire torc, boots of stomping, and...Devastation Gauntlets.
Those items are all out of the DMG, I believe. 3.5 again, however. Is that not strictly allowed by PFRPG core rules? None are factored into the damage I've posted, as they're superfluous.

And I stated above, I did -NOT- use a point buy system. I rolled 4d6 and dropped the lowest dice roll from total. This is fairly common, I understand. Starting stats were well fairly well rounded, but not incredible. Dice rolled for hp were below the average.

All large creatures have a reach of 10 ft base. I believe there is no exception to this?

I try very hard to get the details correct. Did I miss anything?

Read what it says under the size bit for Large. If you raise your con or your strength it doubles the cost. do it becoems a 4 pt evolution.

Secondly the only Eidolon who has a reach increase going to large is the Humanoid.

Touche, another change I missed post-beta

Your snake has reach 10 for free with the Bite attack, and Reach 10 with the Slam (which you paid for) but reach 5 for anything else.

The reach evolution applies to the slam attack. 5 ft is base reach at medium size, 10 ft reach at large size. plus evolution=15 foot reach?

However, the motivation for posting was to demonstrate that the class, at present, is broken. Changing the armor to a +2 chain shirt instead of breastplate is -1 ac, the higher evo cost to str/con means my eidolon lost 8 hp of his max until next level.
Although I appreciate the attention to detail, truely, it doesn't ease the fact that a caster class smashes more than the barb or fighter, solo or w/ party support...

Ok,

I see a couple of problems.

1st, Mithral makes the armor one size category lighter for purposes of speed and class abilities, but it doesn't change it to light armor. That is a specific change between 3.5 and PF. So, your summoner needs MWP to wear it, or he takes the ACP to all skills and checks etc.

Multi-attack is being used wrong. It seems you are granting him multiple attacks with each natural weapon based on iterative attacks. That is wrong (but I could be misreading you). Multiattack reduces the penalty for secondary attacks, it doesn't grant iterative attacks. When you have natural weapons, you can either full attack with all natural weapons, or you can make iterative weapon attacks, you can't combine the two.

Oh. That IS different from 3.5! Thanks for that, need to change/take that into consideration.

Sorry, Eidolon receives haste also; forgot to notate. Think I did botch the attack bonuses on secondary attacks though. They should be higher, I think.

[Edit:/ Edited for Clarity]

A couple questions, though wanted to coment on Two things. First using what I guess is either /very/ good rolls or a 25? pt build isnt a good example for saying if a class is too strong or not.

Second Why does the Eidolon have a second Slam attack -5 of the first one? It should have the singe one at +15. what did you spend the Ability increase on? if it was to strength it costs double once you have the large Evolution.

somone correct me if i am wrong, but dont you need the Medium armor feat to use Mithril medium armor?

Id also like to add that looking over I dont understand where half your buffs are from and Given the Summoner by himself could probly beat my barbarian in our current game by himself (without his eidolon) im thinking the amount of optimization is beyond my experience witht he game.

List of Spells available to summoner (that i use)

Mithril makes the armor 1 type lighter; Thus, a medium armor made of mithril instead of steel is light armor.

And all eidolons gain 'Multiattack' as a bonus feat at level 8 or 9, thus he can attack many times.
All stats for eidolon follow the listed base stats, modified w/ the granted stat points every 4 levels (2 so far) and the str/dex bonus based on the eidolon's HD. And the ability increase was to Con. <3
And all summoner stats were rolled w/ 4d6, drop lowest. Summoner's hp is below average, thus I took toughness and high con to balance.
[Edit:/ And yes I did optimize this character very closely regarding the summoner himself, as I needed to do so for his backstory to be plausible in game]

If someone happens to know, what are the various ways a PC can acquire Pounce?

The Summoner class can get Pounce at level 10 via the 'Aspect' ability. Only if his Eidolan is of the Quadruped type, however. Or he could just ride his eidolan into battle and make a full attack after his mount makes a charge. and IT pounces.

Mistake on my part in OP regarding damage from eidolan [didn't have sheet in front of me at time]. Correct is posted below. I could still increase this significantly. Here's the eidolan's stat block/evo/etc:

Serpentine Form
Str 25, dex 20, con 18, int 7, wis 10, cha 11, 68 hp, 24 ac(14 touched)
Eidolan is Large size, so all attacks have 10 foot reach, except for Slam, which has 15 ft reach
Attacks:
Bite: +15 to attack, 1d8+14, 19-20/x2
Slam: +15 to attack, 3d6+14 +1d6, /x2
Tail slap: +15 to attack, 1d8+11, /x2
Full: Attack @ +15 slam 3d6+14, +10 slam 3d6+14, +5 bite 1d8+14

Feats: Power Attack, Blindfight*, Cleave, Combat Reflexes
[*Summoner gains this a limited number of rounds per day via "Shared Senses." Handy against assassins]
13 Evolution points
Free: Bite, Climb, Tail, Tailslap
Ability Increase [2 pts]
Limbs [2 pts]
Slam [2 pts]
Improved Damage(Slam)[1 pt]
Large [3 pts]
Reach [1 pt]
Energy Attacks [2 pts]

The OP wasn't intended to say the Eidolan itself was overpowered, however.. Ill list the Summoner's block as well:
Str 18, dex 16, con 18, int 13, wis 7, cha 18, 75 hp, 28* ac [17 touched]
[*Active AC value; takes penalties to true ac value except on rare occurances]
Flaw: Pathetic Wis
Flaw Feat: Force of Personality
Racial: Extend spell
L1: Power Attack
L3: Lunge
L5: Toughness
L7: Combat reflexes
L9: Hold the line
Weapon: Adamantine Greatmaul (1d12)
Armor: +2 mithril breastplate (Light, +7 ac, +5m.dex, -2 check)
When Buffed:
70 Speed
20% miss chance (blur) or 50% miss chance (displacement)
+12 AC
DR 10/adamant, 90 dmg absorbed
+8 Str
-2 Dex
-2 AC
-2 AC when using "Lunge"
Large Size

Full Attack [with party buffs, no activate items]:
+22/+17/+12 on attack; 3d6+24, 3d6+24, 3d6+24 (Haste for 3rd attack)
Full attack [Self buffed, no active magic items]
+15/+10/+5 on attack; 3d6+15, 3d6+15, 3d6+15

And still leaves spell slots open for black tentacles and wall of fire, etc.
Also, what expense is there to having an Eidolan? Sure i could give it a greatsword and make it huge sized later on...Natural armor works better than any mundane armor, and some magical armors.
Note: Also, playing in Eberron game world.
And WBL=Loot tables? Generally stingy. Bob the Emerald Claw grunt can't afford a +1 longsword while supporting his wife and kids. :( Poor Bob.

Anyways, the point is that the Eidolan is roughly equal to the party fighter. The summoner stomps the party fighter. Both of them. At once. Without help from his Eidolan. Straight wizards can emulate a similar build w/ mage armor, etc, albeit w/ a smaller hit die, much lower BAB, and the like.

I recently joined a game of old friends that had switched to PFRPG, and after reading over most of the new rules and classes, decided to playtest the Summoner class for our group. And it's broken, even w/ the recent changes made in the official version of the class. So, I cant summon a horde of monsters to act as a buffer for my eidolan's Health, while it wreaks havoc anymore... No big deal? At Summoner class level 9, the Eidolan still pushes 3d8+15 w/ its primary attack (slam) and as a serpentine type has other utility options during full attacks. And the Summoner itself is able to out-damage that during melee. As a group we all agree that the flavor of the class would be better suited for a wizard/conjurer specialist prestige class, compacted into 10 levels. As it stands now the summoner seems to push for a self-buffing fighter-type build that happens to have a custom min-max monster pet, imho. Are further tweaks upcoming?