I agree with you MicMan, a DM shouldn't just flood an adventure with traps so that one character is useful. I the only Adventure Path I'm familiar with is Age of Worms. So far, having a rogue has been a huge plus partly because of the sheer number of traps. Most of the traps aren't necessarily lethal once the party gets past level 1 or 2. The traps are still dangerous though.
Traps don't have to be lethal to be a problem.
I do think that it's up to the player to figure out how to use his skills best. Some, like the ones that deal with traps, are under the DM's purview. Others, like Diplomacy or Bluff, are under the player's purview. The rogue shouldn't be focused on a single trick. He should be well balanced to do many different things using mostly his skills. Just like he can't always use Diplomacy to stop a fight, he can't always use Perception and Disable Device to deal with traps.
Disable Device is also used for more than just disabling traps. It is used for opening locks, sabotage, etc. I think we focus too much on the traps when there are plenty of other things the rogue can do with this skill.
Also who remebers Gord the Rogue? What you don't remeber Gord the rogue. Time to read up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_the_Rogue
Mostly, I remember stuff like Gord the Rogue strapping on platemail to backstab demons in the Abyss and thinking, "The man actually created a thief class so crappy he doesn't even want to live with its limitations." :P
Somewhere in this there's an analogy with early edition rogues as battered wives and Gary Gygax as their husband.
There's nothing like having a Competent trapfinder in the party. Spells and Animal Companions simply can't make up for it.
I suppose if your day includes more traps than some complete Adventure Paths that would be true.
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I will say you can make at least a 2 level splash in rogue worthwhile with enough traps, especially during-combat ones. We did have a rogue in Shattered City that saved a lot of headaches with the automatic search check within 10 feet trick; though there wereany chunks it was useless.
But traps are generally not as interesting; most adventure paths simply ignore them or throw them in as "random damage and saves". In a home campaign the GM can come up with clever combat traps to necessitate a rogue, but then what? He takes the trick and bumps up perception and still trivializes them, then you feel compelled to toss in free XP traps just so he can be useful.
So no matter how you set it up, either the rogue is generally useless or adds a trivial and boring xp gain that has no real roleplaying associated. Stealth is same way; if you let the rogue scout out, the rest of the players just sit there, and 99 times out of 100 it changes nothing.
20 feet into the dungeon Unseen servant with small cart of rocks triggers a CR1 pit trap. OH NO!!
Unseen Servant and cart is now stuck in the pit. According to the spell it can't climb or fly. Dismiss Unseen Servant 1. Now you gotta get the cart and rocks out. Who you gonna send down?
Anyone who can make a dc 5 climb check with a rope and a wall to brace against... ie, anyone. Put unseen servant on the cart and haul him up sans rocks, then toss the rocks up.
Unseen Servant #2 bites it because of an arrow trap. And the party takes damage because the trap resets.
Unseen servant 2 is fine. Its not affected by non area attack such as an arrow. The party notes the direction of the arrow trap, and hides behind the cart, or simply keeps rolling the cart over the plate until it runs out of ammo.
Unseen Servant #3 sets off a trap but the party takes the damage because it was delayed.
party heals up with a wand and rejoices at the xp provided by a massively inappropriate cr trap.
I can see looking for traps, but i don't see why that person has to be a rogue any more. Perception is more freely available than ever, and the +3 from it being a class skill is 1: possesed by barbarians, bards, druids, monks, and rangers 2) Surpassed at low to mid levels even on traps by classes that can pump wisdom 3) As levels increases the +3 matters less and less due to the sheer number of ranks.
The rogue can burn a talent and do it quickly... so what? When have you ever seen a trap fest that you needed to get through quickly?
I can see looking for traps, but i don't see why that person has to be a rogue any more. Perception is more freely available than ever, and the +3 from it being a class skill is 1: possesed by barbarians, bards, druids, monks, and rangers 2) Surpassed at low to mid levels even on traps by classes that can pump wisdom 3) As levels increases the +3 matters less and less due to the sheer number of ranks.
Adding insult to injury, since Search (formerly an INT skill) is now part of Perception (WIS), by RAW even normal animals can now be great trapfinders. The simple hawk familiar starts with +14 Perception -- it's awful hard to get quite that high with a level 1 rogue although you can take a pretty good run at it with, say, a half-elf rogue that puts their free skill focus in Perception.
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Disable Device is also used for more than just disabling traps. It is used for opening locks, sabotage, etc. I think we focus too much on the traps when there are plenty of other things the rogue can do with this skill.
Which is why my Eidolon has Disable Device as a class skill, along with masterwork tools. By the way, he also outdamages rogue by over 30 dpr and my party has the benefit of my spells. There's even a trait for disable device, so a wizard or cleric can do it while providing 450% more to the party.
Sorry for griping, but every time I've played with a rogue I feel the party is completely gimped and I would rather have any other class. They can't do dps, can't heal, provide no more utility than a caster and can't tank. What exactly are they good for if the scenario isn't littered with fatal traps like the old school Tomb of Horrors?
Interesting discussion for the most part. After reading most of this, I think I'd agree that a rogue is mechanically disadvantaged compared to many other classes. I hadn't really considered it before. But I still think they can contribute to a party. I had some (a lot of) spare time so I drafted up a couple of builds. Pulling from APG and Core. I'm sure there are problems with them, but these tend to be the types of rogue builds I lean towards.
First up is a strength based melee rogue. He can scout, but he's not really focused on it. He's primarily a skirmisher that rushes in, stabs things in the face, then flees like a pansy. At 10th level, he can spring attack with reach to dish out 1d8+5d6+17 damage + 2 strength damage. Nothing amazing, but useful.
ROGUE 5 MELEE 15 PT BUY CR 4
Male Half-Elf Rogue (Scout) 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf, Human)
Init +4; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +11
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 17. . (+5 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 41 (5d8+10)
Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +1; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
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OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Longspear +9 (1d8+7/20/x3)
Ranged Crossbow, Light +5 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Scout's Charge, Sneak Attack +3d6
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STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 21
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Skill Focus: Stealth (Adaptability), Weapon Focus: Longspear
Traits Fast-Talker, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +9, Disable Device +14, Perception +11, Stealth +13, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Common, Elven
SQ Elf Blood, Fast Stealth (Ex), Trap Spotter (Ex), Trapfinding +2
Combat Gear +1 Longspear, +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, Crossbow, Light, Bolts, Crossbow (20); Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Backpack, Masterwork (16 @ 49 lbs), Bedroll, Blanket, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Crowbar, Flint and steel, Pouch, belt (5 @ 2.5 lbs), Powder (5), Rations, trail (per day) (5), Ring of Protection, +1, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Sunrod (4), Tent, Small, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of Longstrider, Waterskin
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Elf Blood You are counted as both elves and humans for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage.
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +2 +2 to find or disable traps.
ROGUE 10 MELEE 15 PT BUY CR 9
Male Half-Elf Rogue (Scout) 10
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf, Human)
Init +5; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +17
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DEFENSE
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AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 18. . (+6 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 78 (10d8+20)
Fort +8, Ref +13, Will +8
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +3; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
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OFFENSE
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Spd 40 ft.
Melee +2 Longspear +14/+9 (1d8+17/20/x3)
Ranged Crossbow, Light +10/+5 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Crippling Strike, Scout's Charge, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack +5d6
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STATISTICS
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Str 19/23, Dex 14/16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12/14, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 28
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack -2/+4, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Skill Focus: Stealth (Adaptability), Spring Attack, Stealthy, Weapon Focus: Longspear
Traits Fast-Talker, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +16, Bluff +14, Disable Device +23, Escape Artist +5, Perception +17, Stealth +26, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common, Elven
SQ Elf Blood, Fast Getaway (Ex), Fast Stealth (Ex), Trap Spotter (Ex), Trapfinding +5
Combat Gear +2 Longspear, Dagger, Bolts, Crossbow (20), +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, Crossbow, Light; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Bedroll, Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Blanket, Boots of Striding and Springing, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Crowbar, Flint and steel, Handy Haversack (15 @ 49 lbs), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Ioun Stone, Deep Red Sphere, Pouch, belt (5 @ 3 lbs), Powder (2), Rations, trail (per day) (5), Ring of Protection, +1, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Smokestick (2), Sunrod (2), Tent, Small, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Waterskin
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Crippling Strike (Ex) Your sneak attacks do 2 points of Strength damage.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elves and humans for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Getaway (Ex) After successfully making a sneak attack or Sleight of Hand check, a rogue with this talent can spend a move action to take the withdraw action. She can move no more than her speed during this movement.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage.
Skirmisher (Ex) 1st attack after moving 10+' (same round) deals sneak attack damage.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +5 +5 to find or disable traps.
Next up would be how I would envision a scouting rogue. I took the sniper archetype from the APG. This guy is not nearly as effective in combat, but his stealth is pretty good considering he can remain in half elven form for it. Anyway - this guy snipes. At level 10 he can hit things for 1d6+5d6+8 from ranges of up to 60 feet away. With a base +39 to his stealth and with only a -10 penalty to sniping, he'll have a decent chance of re-stealthing after the attack. Not much damage, really - he's a plinker.
ROGUE 5 RANGED 15 PT BUY CR 4
Male Half-Elf Rogue (Sniper) 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf, Human)
Init +6; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +11
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DEFENSE
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AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 16. . (+5 armor, +4 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 41 (5d8+10)
Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +2
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Uncanny Dodge; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +5 (1d4+2/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Shortbow, Composite (Str +2) +9 (1d6+3/20/x3)
Special Attacks Accuracy, Deadly Range (40'), Sneak Attack +3d6
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 20
Feats Point Blank Shot, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Skill Focus: Stealth (Adaptability), Stealthy, Weapon Focus: Shortbow
Traits Fast-Talker, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +12, Bluff +9, Disable Device +14, Escape Artist +6, Perception +11, Stealth +22, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Common, Elven
SQ Elf Blood, Fast Stealth (Ex), Trap Spotter (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Shortbow, Composite (Str +2), +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, Dagger; Other Gear Backpack, Masterwork (12 @ 22 lbs), Bedroll, Blanket, Cloak of Elvenkind, Flint and steel, Pouch, belt (3 @ 1.5 lbs), Powder, Rations, trail (per day) (5), Ring of Protection, +1, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Smokestick (2), Sunrod (2), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of Longstrider, Waterskin
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Accuracy (Ex) Halve all range increment penalties with a bow or crossbow.
Deadly Range (40') (Ex) Ranged sneak attacks may be made within 40'
Elf Blood You are counted as both elves and humans for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
ROGUE 10 RANGED 15 PT BUY CR 9
Male Half-Elf Rogue (Sniper) 10
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf, Human)
Init +8; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +23
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DEFENSE
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AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18. . (+6 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+20)
Fort +6, Ref +14, Will +6
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14); Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
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OFFENSE
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Spd 40 ft.
Melee Dagger +9/+4 (1d4+6/19-20/x2)
Ranged +2 Shortbow, Composite (Str +2) +14/+9 (1d6+8/20/x3)
Special Attacks Accuracy, Deadly Range (60'), Sneak Attack +5d6
--------------------
STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 19/23, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12/14, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 26
Feats Deadly Aim -2/+4, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Skill Focus: Perception, Skill Focus: Stealth (Adaptability), Stealthy, Weapon Focus: Shortbow
Traits Fast-Talker, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +19, Bluff +14, Disable Device +21, Escape Artist +8, Perception +23, Stealth +39, Use Magic Device +13 Modifiers Camoflage (1/day), Stealthy Sniper
Languages Common, Elven
SQ Elf Blood, Fast Stealth (Ex), Ring of Chameleon Power, Trap Spotter (Ex)
Combat Gear +2 Shortbow, Composite (Str +2), Dagger, +2 Mithral Chain Shirt; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Bedroll, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Blanket, Boots of Striding and Springing, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Crowbar, Handy Haversack (14 @ 49 lbs), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Pouch, belt (7 @ 3.5 lbs), Powder (4), Rations, trail (per day) (5), Ring of Chameleon Power, Ring of Protection, +1, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Smokestick (3), Sunrod (2), Tent, Small, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of Darkvision, Waterskin
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Accuracy (Ex) Halve all range increment penalties with a bow or crossbow.
Camoflage (1/day) (Ex) 1/day craft camo from foliage that grants +4 stealth.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deadly Range (60') (Ex) Ranged sneak attacks may be made within 60'
Elf Blood You are counted as both elves and humans for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Ring of Chameleon Power As a free action, the wearer of this ring can gain the ability to magically blend in with the surroundings.
This provides a +10 competence bonus on her Hide checks. As a standard action, she can also command the ring to utilize the spell disguise self as often as she wants.
Faint illusion; CL 3rd; Forge Ring, disguise self, invisibility; Price 12,700 gp.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stealthy Sniper (Ex) Sniping is only a -10 penalty, rather than -20
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Either of these builds can serve as a trap finder/disabler. They can also move pretty quickly while stealthing to serve as an advanced scout of sorts. And while neither of them are truly dangerous in combat, they can at least contribute to some killing with consistent sneak attack damage.
The druid still has special abilities more powerful than the rogues entire class.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html
The damage is only useful if you can sneak attack, which isn't guaranteed.
The druid still has special abilities more powerful than the rogues entire class.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html
The damage is only useful if you can sneak attack, which isn't guaranteed.
Yeah, the druid is certainly more powerful. But the APG made it a lot easier for rogues to get sneak attack damage. If a scout rogue moves at least 10 feet in the round, he gets sneak attack damage. So although it is not guaranteed, it can definitely be relied upon with a spring attacking build. The sniper rogue gets increased ranges for sneak attack damage. Which, with crazy stealth bonuses, can also be pretty reliable.
Yeah, the druid is certainly more powerful. But the APG made it a lot easier for rogues to get sneak attack damage. If a scout rogue moves at least 10 feet in the round, he gets sneak attack damage. So although it is not guaranteed, it can definitely be relied upon with a spring attacking build.
thats pretty nice. Does it apply to attacks of opportunity or just the regular attacks?
The sniper rogue gets increased ranges for sneak attack damage. Which, with crazy stealth bonuses, can also be pretty reliable.
Not really. By the raw, after the first time you sneak attack them they're not flat footed (or second, if you win initiative). you can try to hide with the sniping penalty, but eventually most things at that level are going to find you.
Yeah, the druid is certainly more powerful. But the APG made it a lot easier for rogues to get sneak attack damage. If a scout rogue moves at least 10 feet in the round, he gets sneak attack damage. So although it is not guaranteed, it can definitely be relied upon with a spring attacking build.thats pretty nice. Does it apply to attacks of opportunity or just the regular attacks?
Unfortunately, only the regular attacks. The AoOs would be without the sneak attack.
The sniper rogue gets increased ranges for sneak attack damage. Which, with crazy stealth bonuses, can also be pretty reliable.
Not really. By the raw, after the first time you sneak attack them they're not flat footed (or second, if you win initiative). you can try to hide with the sniping penalty, but eventually most things at that level are going to find you.
Hmm - I had understood that, if something did not see you, that they were denied their dex bonus against you. Comparable to if something were blind or if you were invisible. If that's not supported by RAW, that kind of sucks.
But the sniping penalty can be reduced with a rogue talent to -10 which, if you're plinking at something from 50-60 feet away, means the rogue is still getting a +34 or +35 to its re-hide attempt. Most things are not going to perceive that at CR10. Barring blindsight etc. etc. If you're in an environment with foliage, the rogue can get another +4 to its hiding attempts. Really - pretty invisible.
Unfortunately, only the regular attacks. The AoOs would be without the sneak attack.
oh well. Is there a way to work combat reflexes and stand still into the build?
Hmm - I had understood that, if something did not see you, that they were denied their dex bonus against you. Comparable to if something were blind or if you were invisible. If that's not supported by RAW, that kind of sucks.
Blind and invisible do do that. Hiding doesn't even though a lot of people run it as if it is. I don't see it in the raw, and i'm pretty convinced at this point that it isn't there. (much like Sasquatch)
But the sniping penalty can be reduced with a rogue talent to -10 which, if you're plinking at something from 50-60 feet away, means the rogue is still getting a +34 or +35 to its re-hide attempt. Most things are not going to perceive that at CR10. Barring blindsight etc. etc. If you're in an environment with foliage, the rogue can get another +4 to its hiding attempts. Really - pretty invisible.
Foliage that's granting concealment is a REQUIREMENT to hide. It doesn't provide a bonus. If the foliage is that thick its probably providing your target as well as you concealment and the miss chance, which negates the sneak attack ability entirely.
So at 60 feet you're effectively at +12 to stealth, - 10 for the sniping is back to +2. You had a 26 so that puts you at a 28.
bebilith has a +16, you can probably get off 2-3 plinks.
brachiosaurus +27 , even contest.
Clay golem: +o yay The dr will take a lot of bite out of the arrows though.
couatl +23, which is close. Can Detect chaos, good, and evil at will, and will probably find you with one.
Fire giant: +14 plunk away
Giant flytrap: tremmor sense . No dice.
Guardian naga +23 . Can go invisible to stop the sneak attacks, cast detect magic and look for you.
Rakasha: +14 but see naga.
Red/silver dragon 15 and 17, but blindsense
White dragon +22 and blindsense.
Even if the odds of you succeeding are greater than 50 50 they drop considerably as you rely on it more and more.
The rogue NEEDS to sneak attack every time, consistently, just to keep up with the fighters damage. Every round he spends flitting around in the dark playing cat and mouse is a round he's not contributing to dropping the monster.
But the sniping penalty can be reduced with a rogue talent to -10 which, if you're plinking at something from 50-60 feet away, means the rogue is still getting a +34 or +35 to its re-hide attempt. Most things are not going to perceive that at CR10. Barring blindsight etc. etc. If you're in an environment with foliage, the rogue can get another +4 to its hiding attempts. Really - pretty invisible.Foliage that's granting concealment is a REQUIREMENT to hide. It doesn't provide a bonus. If the foliage is that thick its probably providing your target as well as you concealment and the miss chance, which negates the sneak attack ability entirely.
So at 60 feet you're effectively at +12 to stealth, - 10 for the sniping is back to +2. You had a 26 so that puts you at a 28.
bebilith has a +16, you can probably get off 2-3 plinks.
brachiosaurus +27 , even contest.
Clay golem: +o yay The dr will take a lot of bite out of the arrows though.
couatl +23, which is close. Can Detect chaos, good, and evil at will, and will probably find you with one.
Fire giant: +14 plunk away
Giant flytrap: tremmor sense . No dice.
Guardian naga +23 . Can go invisible to stop the sneak attacks, cast detect magic and look for you.
Rakasha: +14 but see naga.
Red/silver dragon 15 and 17, but blindsense
White dragon +22 and blindsense....
Sorry for the confusion. You don't require foliage to hide - you just require concealment or cover. What I was specifically referring to is the Camouflage rogue talent. If your concealment happens to be due to foliage, you can make camo which gives an addition +4 bonus.
Yeah, if he's shooting into concealment he won't get sneak attack - well, there's ANOTHER rogue talent that allows sneak attack into concealment, but only within 30 feet I think. The numbers I stated were for a more ideal situation - that is, where you're in hiding shooting into an area without cover/concealment, such as from the forest into a war camp or clearing. Something like that.
So for reference, the level 10 sniper's stealth skill is +39. If he's got camo, it's +43. If he shoots at something 50 feet away and re-hides, he takes a -10 penalty due to sniping and a +5 bonus due to distance, and his hide check is at +38. Assuming he's rolling around a 10 on the d20, critters need to hit a DC 48 to spot him. That's tough.
He could swap out some talents to be able to shoot into concealment, but then he'd lose a couple more points to his stealth check. He wouldn't have to rely on ideal situations in that case, though, so it's probably a good idea to work that in.
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The rogue NEEDS to sneak attack every time, consistently, just to keep up with the fighters damage. Every round he spends flitting around in the dark playing cat and mouse is a round he's not contributing to dropping the monster.
I disagree. If he kept up with fighter damage he still would suck because he has bad HP and can't tank. Also a rogue with 100% sneak attack still does horrible dps. The guy above me posted an unoptimized level 5 rogue whose longspear does +9, d8+7. That's less attack and damage than a level 1 Barbarian and they don't even top the DPR charts.
You still have the problem of - now the rogue is sitting in front of a giant monster he did not kill.
Rogues do it from behind.
(Just in case no one else has said it yet)
What I was specifically referring to is the Camouflage rogue talent. If your concealment happens to be due to foliage, you can make camo which gives an addition +4 bonus.
-Gotcha
Something I've noticed is that the usefulness of being able to shoot more than 30 feet is directly correlated with the size of the DM's table. If someone has a small table/battlemat, a battle with people 120 or even 60 feet apart becomes a real chore to keep track of. and winding twisting caves with small rooms are more likely. If someone has a big honking dining room table or a pool table with a piece of plywood over it then worrying about distances over 30 feet becomes more of an issue.
Yeah, if he's shooting into concealment he won't get sneak attack - well, there's ANOTHER rogue talent that allows sneak attack into concealment, but only within 30 feet I think. The numbers I stated were for a more ideal situation - that is, where you're in hiding shooting into an area without cover/concealment, such as from the forest into a war camp or clearing. Something like that.
Right, but at that point you're out of talents that make the rogue any better at stealthing or finding traps than another class with maxed out ranks. Most parties only move at 20, so if you can walk at 40 you can easily keep ahead of them stealthing
The rogue NEEDS to sneak attack every time, consistently, just to keep up with the fighters damage. Every round he spends flitting around in the dark playing cat and mouse is a round he's not contributing to dropping the monster.I disagree. If he kept up with fighter damage he still would suck because he has bad HP and can't tank. Also a rogue with 100% sneak attack still does horrible dps. The guy above me posted an unoptimized level 5 rogue whose longspear does +9, d8+7. That's less attack and damage than a level 1 Barbarian and they don't even top the DPR charts.
Well, technically, if that level 5 rogue charges into an attack, he does 1d8+3d6+7, which is a little better. But I won't contest that a rogue does the same kind of consistent damage that a fighter or barbarian does. They don't.
The rogue just happens to be a trap spotter and disabler and scout that can ALSO contribute a little bit to the damaging of the baddies.
its focus is on lots and lots of lethal traps that will kill you all dead!... those traps haven't existed since 2e.Mate if you aren't playing with traps that will leave you a pile of smoking ash then you just aren't playing with traps :)
Don't people set up Glyphs of Warding and other such treats with regularity anymore!??
Or Sepia Snake Sigils or Symbols of Death... both count as magical traps (the fact they are trap spells should make that kind of obvious)
To be honest on the traps front though, the difference is that Rogues get trap skills as a class basic, its only when you start variant-taking away that you really lose out on them, thus you don't even really need to specialise in them much unless you are constantly going up against intricate and difficult traps of a highly lethal nature (in other words, your DM is setting difficult traps for your CR and you need a bonus to help).
Thus you don't necessarily need to sacrifice anything as a Rogue to do the trap thing. There are even a few utility magic items that don't cost too much that will provide bonuses in the right areas to help.
Right, but at that point you're out of talents that make the rogue any better at stealthing or finding traps than another class with maxed out ranks. Most parties only move at 20, so if you can walk at 40 you can easily keep ahead of them stealthing
Yeah, I can agree with that. Rogues need some lovin. But I still hold that they're not a complete waste of space. They just play differently than the martial types that stand up front swinging.
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Well, technically, if that level 5 rogue charges into an attack, he does 1d8+3d6+7, which is a little better. But I won't contest that a rogue does the same kind of consistent damage that a fighter or barbarian does. They don't.
For some perspective, that sneak attack damage is less than one of the 4 attacks from my same level eidolon and that doesn't count the summoner casting haste or some other enormously beneficial spell.
Well, technically, if that level 5 rogue charges into an attack, he does 1d8+3d6+7, which is a little better. But I won't contest that a rogue does the same kind of consistent damage that a fighter or barbarian does. They don't.For some perspective, that sneak attack damage is less than one of the 4 attacks from my same level eidolon and that doesn't count the summoner casting haste or some other enormously beneficial spell.
What, you send your eidolon ahead as a scout? What's it's stealth like?
I'm not going to contest the damage output comparisons. Rogues plink. They're great 5th party member characters. They're scouts and trap spotters. They auto-spot traps. Whether that's significant or not in your games will determine whether a rogue has any place. The sniper rogue I posted, for instance, can cruise around through a forest with a +43 to its stealth checks at 80 feet per round. Like a ghost, yo.
The spear toter is not quite that much of a ghost, but he has much better damage output. He dances around behind the fighter/barbarian/eidolon, let's them tank the damage, and stabs folks in the face with reach and spring attack and consistent sneak attack damage. As much damage as a martial character? Nope! Only around 40/round. Plus some strength damage. But none of the martial characters have to sacrifice any of their combat efficacy to be able to scout around. Your eidolon wouldn't have to waste any skill points on disable device. Etc. etc.
Eidelons can be ridonkulously stealth if you make them that way, and fly. Now if you want your eidelon to be a death machine AND a stealth/skill character you're on trickier ground.
While we are here, lets not forget to add in poison use. Often overlooked, and occasionally hard to work with in some campaign settings, poisons are netherless another tool in the Rogue's vast arsenal.
Another case of finding the right tool for the job, which is where knowledge skill ranks and perception help beforehand, a good Poison crafter can improve the DCs of his poisons, meaning they are more useful than simple player-inconviniences and start becomming real monster-debuffers. Sure, again, there are monsters with high Fort save DCs, but then you should know this before hand and tailor your poison use to suit, or choose not to.
On the specialisation front, there are talents that make it quicker to use, more potent and the like as well.
If you want to use poison be an alchemist, they do it better by leaps and bounds.
The druid also gets poison use at level 9.
Not so much use as "Oh darn, i stabbed myself with blank lotus extract, the horror!" *falls over*
Animal companion taps claw. Druid sits up "alright alright fine.. back to work..."
If you want to use poison be an alchemist, they do it better by leaps and bounds.
Ah yes, but that again is something specialised, I was merely stating that if you play 'a rogue' its just there to use if you feel like it, and to specialise a bit in if you like.
I personally don't count the APG classes in any of my comparisons or considerations, I certainly am not in a position to wager one against another. This is for two reasons, first being that our group here in the UK has only had the book for a few months and no character deaths in that time so no-one has made a class from it to try (though we've looked at the alchemist a fair bit, mainly in a Doctor Jekyl/Mr. Hyde or Grenadier type of role, and the Summoner Class, though admittedly not as a scout but in a way similar to the conjuration specialist or old-school Psion Shaper).
Second, because we are looking at the Rogue, one of the 'classic' four. In my opinion the plethora of additional base classes in 3.5 were what led to the system becomming unwieldy, where a lot of the 'core' got left behind without the revisions. Alchemist is a late entry, the new kid on the block, the spotty-faced teen sitting at the bar nursing a pint and trying not to get ID'd by the barman. I'm not saying your point is invalid, and agree that, obviously, the method of use is ultimately similar (as a debuff and attack augmenter) but an Alchemist falls short of the Rogue in other areas and so the two are balanced out in that way.
What, you send your eidolon ahead as a scout? What's it's stealth like?A level 4 druid companion has +24 stealth and human intelligence (int = 3) so it can be told to stealth and scout. It also does almost rogue dps and the druid can heal.
To be clear, we were talking specifically about your eidolon. But ok, the level 4 druid companion stealths as well as a level 4 rogue, but doesn't auto spot or disable traps, pick locks, sabotage equipment, deal as much damage, or have as much staying power as the rogue? So clearly, the druid's animal companion replaces the rogue.
More seriously though, instead of making general statements such as "my x does y better than your z," can folks post up at least a brief outline of a stat block? I'm asking for my own edification. Usually when x does y better than someone else's z, that x has some kind of deficiency or limitation elsewhere. And dealing with abstractions can be meaningless - having a specific build for comparison is more worthwhile.
But yeah, the druid is a beastly class. I don't think the rogue can hold up to it in many situations. For instance, I'm pretty sure the big cats with pouncing can do a lot more damage than a typical rogue. On the other hand, archers can pelt a tiger companion into the negatives faster than they'll poke holes in a rogue. And tigers get caught up in the middle of the action, while a rogue can keep to a safer distance. But again... abstractions...
More seriously though, instead of making general statements such as "my x does y better than your z," can folks post up at least a brief outline of a stat block?
A few pages back there's arsenic and old lace, a scouting druid and animal companion i made for Comparison to zephyr, a rogue. Old Lace's damage output is insane at level 10, the druid could stealth at a movement rate of 35, had a better perception score and a comparable disable device check.
More seriously though, instead of making general statements such as "my x does y better than your z," can folks post up at least a brief outline of a stat block?A few pages back there's arsenic and old lace, a scouting druid and animal companion i made for Comparison to zephyr, a rogue. Old Lace's damage output is insane at level 10, the druid could stealth at a movement rate of 35, had a better perception score and a comparable disable device check.
Right - that wasn't directed at you. I don't think your velociraptor had the 24 stealth at level 4, but I could be wrong. Essentially, I don't think it's appropriate to suggest that an animal companion alone replaces a rogue. An animal companion + a druid? Sure, and then some. Having a rogue in the party lets the druid be a druid, though.
To summarize my position, I think the rogue is underwhelming, other classes can more or less take care of what he does without him, and the things they can't take care of are not generally of vital importance, but the rogue itself is not a useless class and it can contribute to the performance of a party.
I'm actually running a game with a 3 player party of a Cleric, a Ranger, and a Rogue multiclassed with one level of cleric. They're doing just fine, and the rogue (somehow) keeps surviving and doing his part. Are they optimized? Not at all. But they're overcoming CR appropriate challenges and having fun. Things are getting tougher for them as the mod draws to a close, so we'll see if they survive through the rest of it. It'll be tough.
Seeing how there was over 900 posts, I skimmed through it.
What I basically saw was. "Rogues suck because Wizards are better." Wait, so a MARTIAL class is worse than a SPELL CASTING class? STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!!!! "Are rogues consider martial classes? They aren't warriors, but I don't know if anyone calls them scoundrel classes."
Seriously, when comparing any non spell casting class to a spell caster class, your always going to go up a slippery slope. A wizard can STOP TIME! Spell casters have always been unbalanced compared to none spell casting classes. So at level
My favorite story was how a level 20 full geared fighter fought a moderately geared level 20 wizard. The Wizard won every time.....
Another one I saw was talk about how a wizard can do far more damage at level 5 then a rogue. Why is a Wizard doing damage dealing spells I don't know. So yes blaster caster, 5d6 of fireball damage will do more than a rogues potential 3d6+weapon damage. I just hope you roll good both times. The rogue, he can sneak attack all day.
That's something that was bothering me while reading these posts. So the Wizard ALWAYS has the right spells prepared? Always? Sure a wizard should be prepared, but he just seems pretty clairvoyant are level 5. Also, yes, invisibility is better than a rogues normal stealth. "and would make the rogue's stealth better" but again SPELLS PER DAY. Also, minute per spell level? I don't know about you, but all my stealth encounters could take hours in game time. Is a wizard going to stalk his marked target for only 5 minutes? What if his target decides not to go back home but wants to go to the local gambling hall filled with various scum and villain that you did not prepare for?
Then again, you could always just stop time, and summon a giant hurricane. Again, I mention spell casters aren't really balanced in the first place.
Disable Device is also used for more than just disabling traps. It is used for opening locks, sabotage, etc. I think we focus too much on the traps when there are plenty of other things the rogue can do with this skill.Which is why my Eidolon has Disable Device as a class skill, along with masterwork tools. By the way, he also outdamages rogue by over 30 dpr and my party has the benefit of my spells. There's even a trait for disable device, so a wizard or cleric can do it while providing 450% more to the party.
Sorry for griping, but every time I've played with a rogue I feel the party is completely gimped and I would rather have any other class. They can't do dps, can't heal, provide no more utility than a caster and can't tank. What exactly are they good for if the scenario isn't littered with fatal traps like the old school Tomb of Horrors?
What if the party doesn't have a summoner? Your summoner is filling the role of the rogue, not the other way around. I also don't really worry about DPR when I'm gaming. It's really not something that ever crosses my mind. I play characters that are interesting and fun. Yes, they have to be effective but I don't really care if the DPR is higher with build X over build Y. The rogue I put together isn't meant to be a high DPR build. I explained my goals and I believe that they were met. If I were to play a rogue, I would hope that the fighter is worried about how hard he is hitting. That's not why I play a rogue.
I also disagree completely with random numbers like 450%. Sorry but that isn't even close to the truth. It's hyperbole with nothing to back it up. As I mentioned before, the rogue can fill the role of the rogue and then the other classes can do what they do. Every time you dilute your character by trying to take on another character's job as well as yours, you are weakening yourself overall. For every spell you prepare that makes you a better scout, you are not preparing the spells you need to be a better wizard. The rogue helps save resources by not using them to do his job.
The rogue I built can assist the party with plenty of skills. He speaks many languages (tongues is no longer needed by the casters). He can get in and out of difficult social situations (charm person no longer needed by the casters). He can disable magic traps (dispel magic or greater dispel magic no longer needed by the casters). He can hide very well and move with ease through any terrain (invisibility and freedom of movement no longer needed by the casters). He can escape grapples with ease (freedom of movement no longer needed by the casters). He can use nearly any magic item found (casters no longer needed). Since he's concealed for stealth, he has a 20% or even 50% miss chance (blur and displacement no longer needed by the casters). He can easily disguise himself to infiltrate the enemy encampment (alter self no longer needed by the casters). The list goes on and on. Why should the casters prepare spells to do what he is already doing. Just those eight examples save the casters more than eight spell slots.
He may only be dealing 48.5 points of damage per hit but he does have three attacks with the worst one being +21. Against a flat-footed foe (I have +20 initiative) that is almost 150 points in a single round. He probably already dealt about 50 points in the surprise round. So I think that nearly 200 points of damage before the end of round 1 is a good thing. That's more than half the expected hit points of a CR 20 creature. No, it's not an instant kill but that's not what he is supposed to do. Yes, he does have the ability to instant kill at level 20 but the DC is only 23 for a Fortitude save. Probably not going to be successful but he can try for free. I could have built him with more focus on the Intelligence but I didn't think it was necessary.
The rogue NEEDS to sneak attack every time, consistently, just to keep up with the fighters damage. Every round he spends flitting around in the dark playing cat and mouse is a round he's not contributing to dropping the monster.I disagree. If he kept up with fighter damage he still would suck because he has bad HP and can't tank. Also a rogue with 100% sneak attack still does horrible dps. The guy above me posted an unoptimized level 5 rogue whose longspear does +9, d8+7. That's less attack and damage than a level 1 Barbarian and they don't even top the DPR charts.
There's the problem. The rogue shouldn't be a tank. He should be a Humvee.
Ok for one lockgo no one has been using a wizard for comparison just a druid, which has a much smaller spell list and no one said the spellcaster always had the right spell prepared, just that he can whenever he wants. They refresh every day
I would like to ask if anyone has tried just hiring a rogue npc to travel with the party to find traps? works as early as level 2 and he will take care of all that nonsense while wasting very little resource
And people stop complaining about skills, this thread is looking for things the rogue has that others don't, a party of four without a rogue can easily make up for all the rogues skills. Everyone gets skills
Ok for one lockgo no one has been using a wizard for comparison just a druid, which has a much smaller spell list and no one said the spellcaster always had the right spell prepared, just that he can whenever he wants. They refresh every day
I would like to ask if anyone has tried just hiring a rogue npc to travel with the party to find traps? works as early as level 2 and he will take care of all that nonsense while wasting very little resource
And people stop complaining about skills, this thread is looking for things the rogue has that others don't, a party of four without a rogue can easily make up for all the rogues skills. Everyone gets skills
We must discuss skills. The rogue gets a ton of them. Take a look at the rogue I posted. He has far more skills than any other class. The rogue can do so much without the wasting of resources because of this. Just look at his Stealth check. He is getting +15 from his armor, 3 from his belt, 2 from ioun stones, 2 from his book. That means that he still has 35 to his check without magic. That's excellent. What did it cost him? Nothing he wasn't going to spend anyway. 1/9 of his skill points each level plus one feat (didn't even take Skill Focus which would give him an additional 6 points). Skill points are one of the rogue's greatest assets especially in a campaign that focuses on skill use.
If we aren't going to look at skills, then we must ignore spells too. Most spells are available to more than one spell casting class. Those spells are also not always available to any particular build at any given time. That's why people ask for builds. Toss up a wizard that has a full spell book for each level, cost for going over your 2 spells per level included, so that we can actually compare.
Spontaneous casters, like the summoner and sorcerer, are limited in their spell selections from the beginning. How well can they fill multiple roles?
Clerics and druids are different because they actually can refresh their entire allotment of spells daily. The question is: do they have time to wait? In my experience as both DM and player, the sooner you can act on the immediate information the better. Waiting even a few hours can change what you are dealing with. The higher level the encounter, the more likely this is to be true.
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There's the problem. The rogue shouldn't be a tank. He should be a Humvee.The rogue NEEDS to sneak attack every time, consistently, just to keep up with the fighters damage. Every round he spends flitting around in the dark playing cat and mouse is a round he's not contributing to dropping the monster.I disagree. If he kept up with fighter damage he still would suck because he has bad HP and can't tank. Also a rogue with 100% sneak attack still does horrible dps. The guy above me posted an unoptimized level 5 rogue whose longspear does +9, d8+7. That's less attack and damage than a level 1 Barbarian and they don't even top the DPR charts.
I think their are two main problem with these types of threads.
Problem one comes down to some classes not fitting the style specific people like to play.
Rogues may be the most versatile "Role" playing class. But if you are a "Roll" player, skill points and big picture strategy aren't as important to you and your table. You want to know how it can kill things, not how it can make it so you don't have to kill things.
This isn't to say one way is right and one is wrong. This is to say we are discussing the merits of Apples vs Oranges out of context.
Problem two comes down to people having a favorite class that they know really well, because they play it a lot and have really dug into the books and materials for ways to make it work for how they and their group like to play.
But most of the time the people complaing A) don't know the capabilities of the class, because they don't play it/have not dug into the minutia of how all the pieces can fit together in different build styles and B) Even if they did, they would still prefer another class that better fits how they like to play.
At the end of the day, you can make a Rogue that can fit into either group and contribute. Probably better in a "Role" playing group, but the class has enough options that you can focus it like a laser on a specific goal/role.
But you can't convince someone that isn't interested in playing a subterfuge type character that a subterfuge type character has value in the game. Because for them, it doesn't.
Personally, I love exploring classes. I find the key to success in the game isn't about individual players, but how groups work together to find synergies to enhance each classes strengths and to compensate for each classes weaknesses.
In every game, anything could happen. In my experience, a rogue gives a party a lot of options and can fill a lot of roles. While he may not always be the superstar of a given encounter, when you look back at the campaign you realize how many times the rogue was a key to success in a given situation.
We must discuss skills. The rogue gets a ton of them. Take a look at the rogue I posted. He has far more skills than any other class. The rogue can do so much without the wasting of resources because of this. Just look at his Stealth check. He is getting +15 from his armor, 3 from his belt, 2 from ioun stones, 2 from his book. That means that he still has 35 to his check without magic. That's excellent. What did it cost him? Nothing he wasn't going to spend anyway. 1/9 of his skill points each level plus one feat (didn't even take Skill Focus which would give him an additional 6 points). Skill points are one of the rogue's greatest assets especially in a campaign that focuses on skill use.If we aren't going to look at skills, then we must ignore spells too. Most spells are available to more than one spell casting class. Those spells are also not always available to any particular build at any given time. That's why people ask for builds. Toss up a wizard that has a full spell book for each level, cost for going over your 2 spells per level included, so that we can actually compare.
Spontaneous casters, like the summoner and sorcerer, are limited in their spell selections from the beginning. How well can they fill multiple roles?
Clerics and druids are different because they actually can refresh their entire allotment...
Spells for spellcasters is a bonus not the class feature (except for Wiz/sor who really do have more options then others) Skills on the other hand, I bet my party of a Fighter, Wizard, Oracle, and Bard (really a party at the moment by the way) has every skill your rogue has and sacrificed nothing about their class to do it.
so if we lost say the bard and picked up a rogue we would lose all of the bards abilities and gain nothing. This is why skills can not be used to argue the worth of a class, skills are useful but not worthy of their own class.
The rogue is essentially skills in physical form. How does this benefit my party that already has these skills? Worst 5th member we could pick up.
That is why no one has convinced me the rogue is useful for anything but trap-finding, that is why I started inquiring about trap-finding. Then for some reason people moved back to skills
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I think their are two main problem with these types of threads.Problem one comes down to some classes not fitting the style specific people like to play.
Rogues may be the most versatile "Role" playing class. But if you are a "Roll" player, skill points and big picture strategy aren't as important to you and your table. You want to know how it can kill things, not how it can make it so you don't have to kill things.
This isn't to say one way is right and one is wrong. This is to say we are discussing the merits of Apples vs Oranges out of context.
Problem two comes down to people having a favorite class that they know really well, because they play it a lot and have really dug into the books and materials for ways to make it work for how they and their group like to play.
But most of the time the people complaing A) don't know the capabilities of the class, because they don't play it/have not dug into the minutia of how all the pieces can fit together in different build styles and B) Even if they did, they would still prefer another class that better fits how they like to play.
At the end of the day, you can make a Rogue that can fit into either group and contribute. Probably better in a "Role" playing group, but the class has enough options that you can...
The problem I have with this answer to Rogue's mechanical usefulness is you can attach that Role to many other classes and have the same great and interesting roleplaying character, but also be mechanically more sound than the Rogue.
Spells for spellcasters is a bonus not the class feature (except for Wiz/sor who really do have more options then others) Skills on the other hand, I bet my party of a Fighter, Wizard, Oracle, and Bard (really a party at the moment by the way) has every skill your rogue has and sacrificed nothing about their class to do it.
so if we lost say the bard and picked up a rogue we would lose all of the bards abilities and gain nothing. This is why skills can not be used to argue the worth of a class, skills are useful but not worthy of their own class.
The rogue is essentially skills in physical form. How does this benefit my party that already has these skills? Worst 5th member we could pick up.
That is why no one has convinced me the rogue is useful for anything but trap-finding, that is why I started inquiring about trap-finding. Then for some reason people moved back to skills
If you can't be convinced there is nothing I can do. The fact remains that rogues have the most skills and that is a feature of the class. The fact remains that skills carry more weight in some campaigns than others. In those campaigns having a lot of skills is a boon. It remains a fact that being able to accomplish skill tasks without magic means that resources were not spent.
Honestly, it doesn't matter if casters have options other than skills. Skills matter in many games and they can't be ignored when determining the effectiveness of a class. The class needs to be looked at from more than one point of view. In your games skills don't mean much. That isn't a flaw with the rogue though. That's a difference in game styles.
My players are always looking for ways to get bonuses to their skills. They love making skill checks and seek out ways to do so. They try to make sure that every skill is covered by someone in the party with some skills having overlap. They go out of their way to not use magic to accomplish tasks that don't need magic. Skills play a huge role in my games. The spell casters can't cast enough spells to keep up so they instead focus on other things.
Oh, and I'm curious what I sacrificed to accomplish this? My build has in and out of combat effectiveness. He isn't full of combat options like the fighter, but he can dish out the damage with ease. Not as easy as the fighter or barbarian but that's not the rogue's job.
The problem I have with this answer to Rogue's mechanical usefulness is you can attach that Role to many other classes and have the same great and interesting roleplaying character, but also be mechanically more sound than the Rogue.
Can you? Can you build a character that can accomplish everything the rogue I put out there can accomplish at the same levels. He needs to be able to do it on demand with at least the same chance of success, and if he can do it better that would be even better.
I would like to see the build that is a versatile as the rogue on demand. No waiting 24 hours to get the right spells. I accept the use of scrolls and wands.
If you can't be convinced there is nothing I can do. The fact remains that rogues have the most skills and that is a feature of the class. The fact remains that skills carry more weight in some campaigns than others. In those campaigns having a lot of skills is a boon. It remains a fact that being able to accomplish skill tasks without magic means that resources were not spent.Honestly, it doesn't matter if casters have options other than skills. Skills matter in many games and they can't be ignored when determining the effectiveness of a class. The class needs to be looked at from more than one point of view. In your games skills don't mean much. That isn't a flaw with the rogue though. That's a difference in game styles.
My players are always looking for ways to get bonuses to their skills. They love making skill checks and seek out ways to do so. They try to make sure that every skill is covered by someone in the party with some skills having overlap. They go out of their way to not use magic to accomplish tasks that don't need magic. Skills play a huge role in my games. The spell casters...
You ignored half of the post, not once did I say skills aren't absolutely undeniably useful. I said I don't want to waste a party member for something I already have. Look at the example of my four person party. All the skills are accounted for in that party. So answer me "why would that party (or any other) need a rogue?"
Keep in mind "ALL SKILLS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR" so why do I need your rogue?
Keep in mind "ALL SKILLS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR" so why do I need your rogue?
What if you didn't have the "perfect group"? Would that then change the rogue's potential value?