Creative Director
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How to the Shoanti feel about half-orcs? Do they accept them? Cast them out? Abandon them at birth? A player in a CotCT game I'll be starting soon is considering a half-orc barbarian and I'm trying to answer her questions on possible origins for her character.
As a general rule, they don't like them. The orcs and the Shoanti have a nice long history of antagonism. Orcs are, as a whole, MUCH more accepting of half-orcs than are the Shoanti, although specific tolerances can vary according to tribe if the GM wants.
Despite the fact that half orc blood clearly strengthens their puny culture they stupidly tend to kill or abandon such infants... however those that somehow survive such abandonment on the Cinderlands would have to be earmarked by fates for greatness ;)*
* They'd also likely be brutal forces of nature too...
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Actually, didn't the Shoanti article say they accept their half-orc brethren as full Shoanti, even if they see them with pity?
Yep.
Also, nothing is said anywhere about Shoanti abandoning half-orc babies.
Personally I'd wager half-orcs raised amongst Shoanti get treated a hell of a lot better than most raized by Belkzenian orcs. Because Belkzenian orcs.
Actually, didn't the Shoanti article say they accept their half-orc brethren as full Shoanti, even if they see them with pity?
Yep.
Also, nothing is said anywhere about Shoanti abandoning half-orc babies.
Personally I'd wager half-orcs raised amongst Shoanti get treated a hell of a lot better than most raized by Belkzenian orcs. Because Belkzenian orcs.
See these "half-orc" that are accepted are less "half orc" and more "half-Shoanti"... their weakness shines through and plants the seeds of pity in manling hearts and as for Belkzen raised half-orcs being badly treated... we treat all the whelps the same - with an even hand [and closed fist] ;)
Actually, didn't the Shoanti article say they accept their half-orc brethren as full Shoanti, even if they see them with pity?
Yep.
Also, nothing is said anywhere about Shoanti abandoning half-orc babies.
Personally I'd wager half-orcs raised amongst Shoanti get treated a hell of a lot better than most raized by Belkzenian orcs. Because Belkzenian orcs.
Which article is this?
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Which article is this?Actually, didn't the Shoanti article say they accept their half-orc brethren as full Shoanti, even if they see them with pity?
Yep.
Also, nothing is said anywhere about Shoanti abandoning half-orc babies.
Personally I'd wager half-orcs raised amongst Shoanti get treated a hell of a lot better than most raized by Belkzenian orcs. Because Belkzenian orcs.
Shoanti cultural article from Pathfinder #10, History of Ashes. Fantastic stuff. Both of the Shoanti PC players in our Crimson Throne campaign adored it.
Pha! Manling propaganda spread by the Shoanti snaketalkers... ;)
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Shoanti cultural article from Pathfinder #10, History of Ashes. Fantastic stuff. Both of the Shoanti PC players in our Crimson Throne campaign adored it.Which article is this?Actually, didn't the Shoanti article say they accept their half-orc brethren as full Shoanti, even if they see them with pity?
Yep.
Also, nothing is said anywhere about Shoanti abandoning half-orc babies.
Personally I'd wager half-orcs raised amongst Shoanti get treated a hell of a lot better than most raized by Belkzenian orcs. Because Belkzenian orcs.
Actually, just to be certain, the specific details about Shoanti half-orcs I'm remembering might be from the player's guides for Curse of the Crimson Throne and Rise of the Runelords instead.
Tribal humans, and even civilized humans killed unwanted babies alot, ie the Romans etc, and the Shoanti are ina viscious war with the orcs especially the sun clan ove the the cinderlands...
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Actually, just to be certain, the specific details about Shoanti half-orcs I'm remembering might be from the player's guides for Curse of the Crimson Throne and Rise of the Runelords instead.Shoanti cultural article from Pathfinder #10, History of Ashes. Fantastic stuff. Both of the Shoanti PC players in our Crimson Throne campaign adored it.Which article is this?Actually, didn't the Shoanti article say they accept their half-orc brethren as full Shoanti, even if they see them with pity?
Yep.
Also, nothing is said anywhere about Shoanti abandoning half-orc babies.
Personally I'd wager half-orcs raised amongst Shoanti get treated a hell of a lot better than most raized by Belkzenian orcs. Because Belkzenian orcs.
I think the fact that the developer who commented in this thread (2nd comment) trumps you.
Just sayin'
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I think the fact that the developer who commented in this thread (2nd comment) trumps you.Just sayin'
So we've got contradictory canon sources. People can go with whichever interpretation suits their Golarion best.
About abandoning babies, don't forget the the Shoanti have a heritage as a multi-ethnic slave warrior culture, forged from many. And given the harsh conditions and high mortality rates out on the Cinderlands, I'd figure the Shoanti wouldn't be so picky about their children. Anyone that can survive the Shoanti way of life is a Shoanti through and through.
Add to that, having the Shoanti axe their half-orc population pretty much removes one of the few previously confirmed cultures that provide a decent place for half-orcs on Golarion where they can actually be accepted.
Just don't see a reason to further beat up on the most persecuted core race in the game. Retconning is just a bad deal for them. Hell, it removes one of the things that made the Shoanti stand out from their neighbors.
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Creative Director
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Actually, just to be certain, the specific details about Shoanti half-orcs I'm remembering might be from the player's guides for Curse of the Crimson Throne and Rise of the Runelords instead.Shoanti cultural article from Pathfinder #10, History of Ashes. Fantastic stuff. Both of the Shoanti PC players in our Crimson Throne campaign adored it.Which article is this?Actually, didn't the Shoanti article say they accept their half-orc brethren as full Shoanti, even if they see them with pity?
Yep.
Also, nothing is said anywhere about Shoanti abandoning half-orc babies.
Personally I'd wager half-orcs raised amongst Shoanti get treated a hell of a lot better than most raized by Belkzenian orcs. Because Belkzenian orcs.
I think the fact that the developer who commented in this thread (2nd comment) trumps you.
Just sayin'
Actually, the developer doesn't have a 100% accurate encyclopedic knowledge of the world, and therefore when someone can mention something we produced, like in the aforementioned article about the Shoanti, that actually DOES talk about how they feel about half-orcs... THAT even trumps the developer. Or the Creative Director, in this case.
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Creative Director
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So we've got contradictory canon sources.
I think the fact that the developer who commented in this thread (2nd comment) trumps you.Just sayin'
Nope; we've got one canon source; the article about the Shoanti in Pathfinder #11.
I'd forgotten about that particular line in that article is all.
In all honesty I think such a character could work, but they'd have had to spend a huge amount of time and energy proving themselves to be more Shoanti than orc if you will...
Such an individual might well be far more vicious and belligerent to orcs than his/her Shoanti tribe [could be reflected in trait or feat picks?]
In a past Greyhawk campaign I played a half orc cleric of Kord who spent much of his time appearing as human [and decent] as possible - shaved, bathed, tried to be eloquent in his speech etc - and saw the orcish strength in his veins as a blessing from Kord...
Thus our Shoanti half-orc could see their hybrid breed as a warped test of will and endurance "that which does not kill us makes us as strong as the orc" type motivation/mentality?
Food for thought
Ah yes the Drow out of the Darkness character :) The Drizzt of the Shoanti :) My Dark and Brooding Shoanti Halforc Ranger/Figher fighting to prove himself to the Humans that he is not a threat to them, and then once he does, not careing to be accepted because he has those close and special friends :) and trouncing monsters with brutal efficency :)
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Nope; we've got one canon source; the article about the Shoanti in Pathfinder #11.
I'd forgotten about that particular line in that article is all.
Actually James, I don't think you've forgotten anything; as far as I can tell there is in fact no such line. I've done a text search on all six volumes of CotCT and the player's guide, plus the player's guide to RotRL, and the only reference I could find to Shoanti attitudes toward half-orcs was on page 5 of the RotRL player's guide:
"In any case, wise half-orcs rightly avoid Varisia’s native Shoanti, who see them as the foulest abominations, more hated than even the Chelaxians of the south."
What Slippery Says :)
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In all honesty I think such a character could work, but they'd have had to spend a huge amount of time and energy proving themselves to be more Shoanti than orc if you will...
Such an individual might well be far more vicious and belligerent to orcs than his/her Shoanti tribe [could be reflected in trait or feat picks?]
That's exactly how we've seen half-orc Shoanti in our games. Always think they have more to prove to their kinsmen, always pushing themselves harder. High tendency to go berzerkotron when facing off against Belkzen orcs.
Ah yes the Drow out of the Darkness character :) The Drizzt of the Shoanti :) My Dark and Brooding Shoanti Halforc Ranger/Figher fighting to prove himself to the Humans that he is not a threat to them, and then once he does, not careing to be accepted because he has those close and special friends :) and trouncing monsters with brutal efficency :)
Eh, I'd say having a half-orc come out of Belkzen would be the Drizzt guy. ;)
Nope; we've got one canon source; the article about the Shoanti in Pathfinder #11.
I'd forgotten about that particular line in that article is all.
Actually James, I don't think you've forgotten anything; as far as I can tell there is in fact no such line. I've done a text search on all six volumes of CotCT and the player's guide, plus the player's guide to RotRL, and the only reference I could find to Shoanti attitudes toward half-orcs was on page 5 of the RotRL player's guide:
"In any case, wise half-orcs rightly avoid Varisia’s native Shoanti, who see them as the foulest abominations, more hated than even the Chelaxians of the south."
Seriously?
Well crap. That's really disappointing. Guess half-orcs weren't persecuted enough.
That certainly pulls the rug out from under the easiest and most natural way to have a good or neutral party-friendly half-orc barbarian in Varisia for those groups that stick to canon as written. So what is the player going to do now? She could still come from one of the more outsider-friendly quahs, like the Shrii-kirri-Quah.
I know we're going to be keeping the Shoanti as half-orc accepting in our games as that's just how they've been for us, but it makes me sad if one of the best options for party-friendly half-orc barbs wasn't even there to begin with.
Cripes, can't good/neutral half-orcs/orcs get a damn break in this setting? This is really getting frustrating. :(
(Where the hell did I see the "accepted but pitied by their kinsmen" thing?! This is really bugging me now.)
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Creative Director
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Half-orcs are not supposed to be happy. At least, not in Golarion. They're tragic figures. They can certainly be good aligned and noble and honorable, but they're not accepted by most societies. They're outcasts, and that's the whole point of the race, to a certain extent. If it's getting frustrating, then it's doing its job.
Now, that said... even though half-orcs are often not trusted, in MOST civilized areas (the cities of Varisia included), half orcs are not immediately attacked by city guards. They're accepted into society enough that they can exist as part of a society—they're just loners or outcasts. The whole point of the half orc, really, is to give a player race option for the gamer who wants to play the "monster" but doesn't want to play a character who would be attacked by the guards on sight (which would be the case in most cities if you play a goblin or orc or gnoll).
A Shoanti half-orc is actually a cool character concept. He could still be raised by a particularly accommodating or loving Shoanti family. There's absolutely room in Golarion for this type of character.
But asking "Can a good half-orc live with a Shoanti family?" and "How do the Shoanti generally react to half-orcs?" are different questions; you get different answers from them as a result.
Actually, the developer doesn't have a 100% accurate encyclopedic knowledge of the world, and therefore when someone can mention something we produced, like in the aforementioned article about the Shoanti, that actually DOES talk about how they feel about half-orcs... THAT even trumps the developer. Or the Creative Director, in this case.Actually, just to be certain, the specific details about Shoanti half-orcs I'm remembering might be from the player's guides for Curse of the Crimson Throne and Rise of the Runelords instead.Shoanti cultural article from Pathfinder #10, History of Ashes. Fantastic stuff. Both of the Shoanti PC players in our Crimson Throne campaign adored it.Which article is this?Actually, didn't the Shoanti article say they accept their half-orc brethren as full Shoanti, even if they see them with pity?
Yep.
Also, nothing is said anywhere about Shoanti abandoning half-orc babies.
Personally I'd wager half-orcs raised amongst Shoanti get treated a hell of a lot better than most raized by Belkzenian orcs. Because Belkzenian orcs.
I think the fact that the developer who commented in this thread (2nd comment) trumps you.
Just sayin'
What? James Jacobs isn't perfect??? I refuse to believe such lies.
All hail the Great Jacobs. Hail. Hail.
No, really guys. It's starting to hail. Crap, I'm outa here. Ow!
You could get a Half Orc Shoanti comming from anywhere in Varisia maybe the Shoanti mother fled because of Love for the Child / shame for what the child is and what happened, or maybe she is an outcast from the Noland Barbarians :) or there may be any nomber of rollplaying ideas :)
Look at Drizzt or any player character for that matter.
Just because all Orcs are evil dosnt mean that your Shoanti father didnt find a hurt young Orc female and took pitty on her and healed her up and they eventually fell in love and had a child and now you have your player character a loner outcast most places but accepted by your close relatives and your tribe. Maybe not the whole Quah but your emediate Tribe in the big Quah... and your Halforc is now a respected tribal Shaman (Druid) and...
In my Rise of the Runelords game we had a half-orc whose mother was half-orc/half Shoanti and was abandoned, so she ended up being a prostitute in Korvosa, where she hired an old half-orc mercenary to train her son to be "hard" so he could survive.
This worked really well with the half-orc rogue whose mother was partly Shoanti, and the Shoanti paladin of Erastil, who was struggling with respecting his culture while feeling called to follow Erastil and right wrongs.
Those two made for some really interesting inter PC roleplaying. We even had a chain of really interesting e-mail conversations between the two, in character.
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Half-orcs are not supposed to be happy. At least, not in Golarion. They're tragic figures. They can certainly be good aligned and noble and honorable, but they're not accepted by most societies. They're outcasts, and that's the whole point of the race, to a certain extent. If it's getting frustrating, then it's doing its job.
Now, that said... even though half-orcs are often not trusted, in MOST civilized areas (the cities of Varisia included), half orcs are not immediately attacked by city guards. They're accepted into society enough that they can exist as part of a society—they're just loners or outcasts. The whole point of the half orc, really, is to give a player race option for the gamer who wants to play the "monster" but doesn't want to play a character who would be attacked by the guards on sight (which would be the case in most cities if you play a goblin or orc or gnoll).
A Shoanti half-orc is actually a cool character concept. He could still be raised by a particularly accommodating or loving Shoanti family. There's absolutely room in Golarion for this type of character.
But asking "Can a good half-orc live with a Shoanti family?" and "How do the Shoanti generally react to half-orcs?" are different questions; you get different answers from them as a result.
Yeah, I know they're meant to be the "outcast" race, but it's just that it gets to be a bit much sometimes. Or at least it feels like it, getting beaten over the head with it constantly. I don't know, part of what was disheartening was finding out that the one non-evil nation ruled by a half-orc that was being all badass and holding the line against Razmiri incursions
Still, simply saying Shoanti half-orcs are possible is deeply appreciated. It helps keep the idea from being shut down by canon-strict GMs at least, being able to point to this thread.
Just because all Orcs are evil
That's another source of frustration for me.
I know there's no changing it in canon, but this thread has spurred me to do something productive about my frustrations at least.
Orcs were supposed to be evil monsters :) they wern't redemable Klingons :) But Halforcs can be anything. And with the feat Vailed Villaines or Vailed Villain you can look like a normal Human :) That from the Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting.
You could run Kingmaker and be the First Halforc King and start doing diplomatic relations with Brevoy :) Even being a Halforc Paladin :)
Just because Halforcs and Halfelves in Golarion are outcasts, they are the special ed kids and goth kids and nerds and what not... dosn't mean they cant be the Hero's and Leaders :)