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Range: Any attack at more than this distance is
penalized for range. Beyond this range, the attack takes
a cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment (or
fraction thereof ) of distance to the target. For example, a
dagger (with a range of 10 feet) thrown at a target that is 25
feet away would incur a –4 penalty. A thrown weapon has
a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile
weapon can shoot to 10 range increments.That's straight out of the core rule book. First, if the dagger can already cover 10 feet without penatly. All the attacker needs is 15 more feet. So if the range increment of a dagger is 5....Should the penalty not be -6?.
Could someone aid me here? And if you'd be so kind write up an example of a longbow for me.
Thank you.
Nah you read that wrong. A thrown weapon can not go more than FIVE range increments of 10 ft each increment. So its max attack distance is 50 ft.
The distance you can throw without penalties is 10 ft. Then for every 10 additional feet that you wish to throw you add a -2 penalty.
So, throw 10 ft.= no penalty
10 to 20 ft = -2
20 to 30 ft = -4
30 to 40 ft = -6
40 to 50 ft = -8
Thats your cut off.
A bow or crossbow has a maximum of TEN range increments beyond its normal range.
Here is how it works for something with a range of 10'.
0'-10' +0
11'-20' -2
21'-30' -4
31'-40' -6
41'-50' -8
Hope that helps.
Range: Any attack at more than this distance is
penalized for range. Beyond this range, the attack takes
a cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment (or
fraction thereof ) of distance to the target. For example, a
dagger (with a range of 10 feet) thrown at a target that is 25
feet away would incur a –4 penalty. A thrown weapon has
a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile
weapon can shoot to 10 range increments.That's straight out of the core rule book. First, if the dagger can already cover 10 feet without penatly. All the attacker needs is 15 more feet. So if the range increment of a dagger is 5....Should the penalty not be -6?.
Could someone aid me here? And if you'd be so kind write up an example of a longbow for me.
Thank you.
I had a most of the day discussion about this with a fellow GM. Looking up some real world facts about the effective range of a bow. It is possible to fire an arrow over 1000 feet but it would be impossible to hit a target that was not rather large. The effective range of a bow is 30 to 40 yards which puts it in the 90 to 120 feet range. After this the effectiveness of hitting a target diminishes. A target can be hit it's just harder to do so. So my friend and I summarize that you would be able to hit a target past your max range at a -2 for every 10 feet (for projectiles). To diminish theses negatives you'd have to use specialized equipment be on higher ground or use magic. You may also say those negatives will stack up so high it would be impossible to hit anything. I just want to remind you a natural 20 is a hit.
My thoughts are in no way comprehensive on this there are other factors I haven't looked fully into. Vision distance for example. Any thoughts are welcomed. I may be looking at it all wrong.As for thrown weapons, we didn't get that deep into it but being able to throw a item 50 feet effectively hitting a target seems a bit much unless the item was designed to do so.
I think you have it right SkyHighT26 overall. The rule in the PFCB is vague if you ask me.
Nah you read that wrong. A thrown weapon can not go more than FIVE range increments of 10 ft each increment. So its max attack distance is 50 ft.
The distance you can throw without penalties is 10 ft. Then for every 10 additional feet that you wish to throw you add a -2 penalty.
So, throw 10 ft.= no penalty
10 to 20 ft = -2
20 to 30 ft = -4
30 to 40 ft = -6
40 to 50 ft = -8
Thats your cut off.A bow or crossbow has a maximum of TEN range increments beyond its normal range.
So a composite longbow with 110feet range is at first increment pentalty 220 feet with -2 to AR? or how does it work there then?
it would be like
0-110 = 0
111-220 = -2
221-330 = -4
331-440 = -6
441-550 = -8
...
and so on and so forth.
To Thomas gately
mmmm, where do i start. If you go by the rules there is no backing in the -2 for each 10 f you shoot beyond range increment, as the rules clearly states its -2 for each fraction of the range increment. But i want to know how you actually came up with that conclusion? i mean in a world where magic is common, and monsters walk around casually, how did you apply real world logic to that. and how did you figure that 10 feet was -2? do you really think an archer has a comulative minus 10% chance to hit an object for every 10 feet you exceed his range increment?
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Just a reminder: each weapon's range increment is different, as noted on the huge table in the equipment chapter.
Penalties for range go as follows: (RI = that weapon's range increment)
0 ft -> (1*RI) = -0
(1*RI)+5 -> (2*RI) = -2
(2*RI)+5 -> (3*RI) = -4
(3*RI)+5 -> (4*RI) = -6
(4*RI)+5 -> (5*RI) = -8
(5*RI)+5 -> (6*RI) = -10
(6*RI)+5 -> (7*RI) = -12
(7*RI)+5 -> (8*RI) = -14
(8*RI)+5 -> (9*RI) = -16
(9*RI)+5 -> (10*RI) = -18
A thrown weapon can't be used to attack anything beyond (5*RI).
A projectile weapon can't be used to attack anything beyond (10*RI).
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Just a reminder: each weapon's range increment is different, as noted on the huge table in the equipment chapter.Penalties for range go as follows: (RI = that weapon's range increment)
0 ft -> (1*RI) = -0
(1*RI)+5 -> (2*RI) = -2
(2*RI)+5 -> (3*RI) = -4
(3*RI)+5 -> (4*RI) = -6
(4*RI)+5 -> (5*RI) = -8
(5*RI)+5 -> (6*RI) = -10
(6*RI)+5 -> (7*RI) = -12
(7*RI)+5 -> (8*RI) = -14
(8*RI)+5 -> (9*RI) = -16
(9*RI)+5 -> (10*RI) = -18A thrown weapon can't be used to attack anything beyond (5*RI).
A projectile weapon can't be used to attack anything beyond (10*RI).
So for Comp.Longbow is it +10 feet per increment or does it double the range like 111-220?
So for Comp.Longbow is it +10 feet per increment or does it double the range like 111-220?
Nope, you multiply the range increment. (To satisfy my inner smart-ass: That's why it's called a range increment).
So up to the increment, you shoot without penalty, and each time you go over the increment, you gain another -2.
Thrown weapons can be thrown as far as 5 increments (so if the increment is 10 feet, you get 50 feet, if it's 20 feet, you get 100, and so on) while projectile weapons can be shot as far as 10 increments (giving you a maximum range of 1100 feet with that bow.
Hmm... a range of 100 feet. That should be called a centipede! :D
Just a silly point but do you really know how close 50' is?
Range increments seem kind of arbitrary.
Just a silly point but do you really know how close 50' is?
Range increments seem kind of arbitrary.
it is greater than the effective range rating given to the .45 ACP by the US Military (which lists it as 15 yards).
Remember it is not just chucking the dagger that far, it is also being able to hit a target with it and making sure the pointy end hits first.
Yeah no idea what increment means and well didn't bother to google since people here actually are helpful, thanks for the info.
My problem is the range max's out at 5x meaning nothing greater has a chance to hit. Effective and actual are quite different the .45 round will travel upwards of a mile now if you can actually hit anything would be amazing.
Just a silly point but do you really know how close 50' is?
Range increments seem kind of arbitrary.
Do you really know how far away 50' is? Remember that we're not talking about throwing knives here, but about a mêlée dagger that can also be thrown in a pinch. A knife made for throwing is probably better represented with the dart, which can be thrown up to 100'
My problem is the range max's out at 5x meaning nothing greater has a chance to hit. Effective and actual are quite different the .45 round will travel upwards of a mile now if you can actually hit anything would be amazing.
Grammar police alert: It's maxes out, not max's out. No plural apostrophe in English.
But back to the rules at hand: Sure, the game doesn't let you hit anything beyond 5x with a thrown weapon, and for something like a (non-throwing) dagger, it's as close as 50'. But remember we're not talking about a firearm here, but a regular knife. It's not shaped aerodynamically and isn't propelled by an explosion. You throw it, let it tumble through the air.
I'd say that once you get that far, air resistance has slowed it down enough to negate any effective damage you could have achieved.
That .45 pistol is a projectile weapon, meaning it gets 10 increments. d20 MOdern gave the ColtM1911 (.45 autoloader) a range increment of 30', meaning you get a shot (pardon the pun) at hitting someone 300' away.
Sure, that's a lot less than a mile, but it doesn't really matter since beyond that, you'd probably have to adjust your aim up considerably, and even spotting someone properly at these distances won't be that easy.
So instead of having rules in place for highly improbable shots that are more accidental than anything else, the rules cut range short at a certain point instead of adding another rule to the game. What would it be? d% roll? Attack roll with ridiculous penalty(provided you make your spot check and are even allowed to aim)?
Hoping for natural 20s might be fun once in a while, but regularly engaging in stuff that requires them for success isn't my idea of a good time.
World record for throwing a knife and killing someone with it is around 75'.
Max range for a knife if you have farshot feet is about 75'.
Sounds good to me.
Personally, I think a 10' increment makes the thrown dagger almost useless for a rogue, something I consider iconic in fantasy and would like to see extended. World records are all fine and good, but the world record in clean and press weight lifting is about 500 Lbs yet in Pathfinder with magic we can achieve a 28 strength and we can lift 1200 lbs over our head. As I stated in another thread, no human being in the world can fire 5 arrows in 6 seconds, yet with one feat, any fighter in Pathfinder can. All in all, Pathfinder is a game where super human abilities are common place and as such, I would like to see dagger throwing increment be more in the 30' range to allow playable characters to fill that classic iconic fantasy role
One of my favorite concepts in the game for years has been a dagger-throwing sneaky skill-monkey. I've always been frustrated with the 10' range increment for daggers. In order to make the concept work you have to take a couple of feats (Point blank shot and far shot, which effectively cancel each other out from 10 - 20') and really load up your dex to get ranged bonuses enough to hit something at 30'. It's an expensive concept to build.
Incidentally, I have thrown knives and axes in real life, and in my experience a range of 15-20' is pretty comfortable. If I had developed the rules for thrown hand weapons I'd probably have given an initial range of 20' and a 5' range increment after that. As a DM I might even house rule that.
World record for throwing a knife and killing someone with it is around 75'.
Max range for a knife if you have farshot feet is about 75'.
Sounds good to me.
There's a world record for throwing a knife and killing someone with it? How did Guinness get someone to volunteer to be the target? Would the record have still counted if the target was just wounded?
Inquiring minds want to know!
One of my favorite concepts in the game for years has been a dagger-throwing sneaky skill-monkey. I've always been frustrated with the 10' range increment for daggers. In order to make the concept work you have to take a couple of feats (Point blank shot and far shot, which effectively cancel each other out from 10 - 20') and really load up your dex to get ranged bonuses enough to hit something at 30'. It's an expensive concept to build.
Incidentally, I have thrown knives and axes in real life, and in my experience a range of 15-20' is pretty comfortable. If I had developed the rules for thrown hand weapons I'd probably have given an initial range of 20' and a 5' range increment after that. As a DM I might even house rule that.
Keep in mind though that you're throwing at something 20' away that's holding still (dex of 0), has a large continuous area that's all a valid target, and is not trying to rip out your liver. Under these circumstances a -2 isn't that big of a deal. If you use a pole with arms instead of a target, and put a little metal on it (or just paint areas as invalid targets) and then find some way to make it move it gets a little more difficult.
Max range for a knife if you have farshot feet is about 75'.
Nope, 50. Far Shot halves the range penalty, it doesn't increase the range. It was changed in Pathfinder.
Personally, I think a 10' increment makes the thrown dagger almost useless for a rogue, something I consider iconic in fantasy and would like to see extended.
Daggers aren't made for throwing. That's why they're so crappy for it. You need an actual throwing knife. I suggest using dart stats.
As I stated in another thread, no human being in the world can fire 5 arrows in 6 seconds, yet with one feat, any fighter in Pathfinder can.
Fighters of level 16 or more, or hasted fighters of level 11 or more. That's not exactly "any fighter".
All in all, Pathfinder is a game where super human abilities are common place and as such, I would like to see dagger throwing increment be more in the 30' range to allow playable characters to fill that classic iconic fantasy role
Doesn't work like that. They'd have to change all the range increments accordingly. Given that the dagger is not really a throwing weapon (i.e. a weapon that is made for throwing), the 10' are OK.
Given that standard rogues are all but useless beyond 30', it's not so bad. Those that really want to throw knives around get darts (and call them throwing knives), or get the sniper archetype, or get Far Shot, or do a lot of other stuff that makes them better at throwing.
The options are right there. It might not be something every single rogue gets to do without effort starting from level 1, but it's not too hard for a rogue to get to it fairly quickly if they're willing to train for it.
World record for throwing a knife and killing someone with it is around 75'.
Max range for a knife if you have farshot feet is about 75'.
Sounds good to me.
There's a world record for throwing a knife and killing someone with it? How did Guinness get someone to volunteer to be the target? Would the record have still counted if the target was just wounded?
Inquiring minds want to know!
See, what you do is this: Call the Guinness guys telling them about a fake record attempt. Then, when a couple of them show up, stand on a marked spot and kill one of them dead when he shows up. Ask the other if he had seen it right or if he wants you to repeat the attempt.
They're usually quite cooperative, help you measuring things and everything.
Nope, 50. Far Shot halves the range penalty, it doesn't increase the range. It was changed in Pathfinder.
Max range for a knife if you have farshot feet is about 75'.
You need the enchant the weapon with distance, which will double your range increment.
World record for throwing a knife and killing someone with it is around 75'.
Max range for a knife if you have farshot feet is about 75'.
Sounds good to me.
There's a world record for throwing a knife and killing someone with it? How did Guinness get someone to volunteer to be the target? Would the record have still counted if the target was just wounded?
Inquiring minds want to know!
See, what you do is this: Call the Guinness guys telling them about a fake record attempt. Then, when a couple of them show up, stand on a marked spot and kill one of them dead when he shows up. Ask the other if he had seen it right or if he wants you to repeat the attempt.
They're usually quite cooperative, help you measuring things and everything.
Dare I ask: Is that the voice of experience I hear?
Keep in mind though that you're throwing at something 20' away that's holding still (dex of 0), has a large continuous area that's all a valid target, and is not trying to rip out your liver. Under these circumstances a -2 isn't that big of a deal. If you use a pole with arms instead of a target, and put a little metal on it (or just paint areas as invalid targets) and then find some way to make it move it gets a little more difficult.One of my favorite concepts in the game for years has been a dagger-throwing sneaky skill-monkey. I've always been frustrated with the 10' range increment for daggers. In order to make the concept work you have to take a couple of feats (Point blank shot and far shot, which effectively cancel each other out from 10 - 20') and really load up your dex to get ranged bonuses enough to hit something at 30'. It's an expensive concept to build.
Incidentally, I have thrown knives and axes in real life, and in my experience a range of 15-20' is pretty comfortable. If I had developed the rules for thrown hand weapons I'd probably have given an initial range of 20' and a 5' range increment after that. As a DM I might even house rule that.
That is true of any ranged weapon, as well as melee weapons. I don't see the purpose of singling out daggers as if this is a unique problem for throwing them.
To get the concept to work in Pathfinder I would suggest using the "starknife" and refluffing it as a thrown dagger. Starknives have the same damage as daggers, are also light blades, can be used as melee or ranged but have a 20' range increment.
Problem solved.
Personally, I think a 10' increment makes the thrown dagger almost useless for a rogue, something I consider iconic in fantasy and would like to see extended.Daggers aren't made for throwing. That's why they're so crappy for it. You need an actual throwing knife. I suggest using dart stats.
As I stated in another thread, no human being in the world can fire 5 arrows in 6 seconds, yet with one feat, any fighter in Pathfinder can.
Fighters of level 16 or more, or hasted fighters of level 11 or more. That's not exactly "any fighter".
All in all, Pathfinder is a game where super human abilities are common place and as such, I would like to see dagger throwing increment be more in the 30' range to allow playable characters to fill that classic iconic fantasy roleDoesn't work like that. They'd have to change all the range increments accordingly. Given that the dagger is not really a throwing weapon (i.e. a weapon that is made for throwing), the 10' are OK.
Given that standard rogues are all but useless beyond 30', it's not so bad. Those that really want to throw knives around get darts (and call them throwing knives), or get the sniper archetype, or get Far Shot, or do a lot of other stuff that makes them better at throwing.
The options are right there. It might not be something every single rogue gets to do without effort starting from level 1, but it's not too hard for a rogue to get to it fairly quickly if they're willing to train for it.
Fighters of level 16 or more, or hasted fighters of level 11 or more. That's not exactly "any fighter".
True, but still my point stands, no human alive can, the fastest recorded speed shoot is 22 arrows a minute, we are looking at nearly two and a half times that.
Daggers aren't made for throwing. That's why they're so crappy for it. You need an actual throwing knife. I suggest using dart stats.
And a star knife works great, but I don't like the flavor as much, I don't see how throwing regular daggers and having them do the same as a star knife breaks anything, we have already established that realism with ranged weapons is a pointless exercise so its about balance. yes we can always house rule it I know.
Given that standard rogues are all but useless beyond 30', it's not so bad. Those that really want to throw knives around get darts (and call them throwing knives), or get the sniper archetype, or get Far Shot, or do a lot of other stuff that makes them better at throwing.
The -2 at 20' for a class that already has a 3/4 attack bonus is not great especially considering that that you can just use star knives and get 20'. Trying to build a duel wielding dagger throwing rogue is incredibly hard from a feat tax perspective and the sniper archtype only halves the range penalty with bow or crossbow not thrown weapons.
Dare I ask: Is that the voice of experience I hear?
See, what you do is this: Call the Guinness guys telling them about a fake record attempt. Then, when a couple of them show up, stand on a marked spot and kill one of them dead when he shows up. Ask the other if he had seen it right or if he wants you to repeat the attempt.They're usually quite cooperative, help you measuring things and everything.
Uh... no... Of course not... <_<
True, but still my point stands, no human alive can, the fastest recorded speed shoot is 22 arrows a minute, we are looking at nearly two and a half times that.
That just means that no human alive is at least 11th level. =P