I have a question...
I am prepping a fight between my pcs (fighter, thief, cleric, wizard..all 11th) and a Mature Adult Black Dragon. My problem is, I've never ran a dragon fight before and I want to make it a great battle. Could anyone suggest how to run the fight? I'm always afraid that I am going to forget some characteristic of the dragon.
How would you run it? What tactics would you use?
Thanks for any help.
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The dragon can do pretty much anything it feels like at any time (very few limits). Play it that way and your players probably won't notice the difference.
Maybe make a note of how many spells known it has of each level then as you start throwing spells out mark down which spells it used so you don't "overspend" a spell level. Outside of that just have it smash their face in.
Or maybe I just run dragons wrong...
EDIT: To elaborate, they have high casting, high melee and high skills (6 + int, and they have the int). If something *can* be done by any of those things, the dragon will likely be able to do it easily.
I have a question...
I am prepping a fight between my pcs (fighter, thief, cleric, wizard..all 11th) and a Mature Adult Black Dragon. My problem is, I've never ran a dragon fight before and I want to make it a great battle. Could anyone suggest how to run the fight? I'm always afraid that I am going to forget some characteristic of the dragon.
How would you run it? What tactics would you use?
Thanks for any help.
Location, Location, Location.
Don't forget buff spells/potions/scrolls/items. PC's use them, the dragon can/should also.
If you want it to be memorable, let the dragon choose the location.
For the Black, you are talking swamp. Difficult terrain, low hanging trees for ranged concealment, even underwater lair due to water breathing.
Opening round of reaching out of being submerged/hidden/invisible into a grapple check, and drag a PC underwater. Bonus points if its the cleric or wizard. Extra bonus points if the water is so murky its basically darkness (blocks sight and light spells)
And remember, its intelligent !
Mature Adult Black Dragon
argh! it ate my post.
Step 1: Breath weapon is backup.
It looks cool, but you can do SO much more with your claw claw bite wing wing tail combo. Only use the breath weapon if you can't full attack someone.
step 2: spells.
Keep an ear out for the party with that +23 perception of yours. cast mage armor and shield to send your ac to the stratosphere. If the wizard is tossing save or die, kill him first. otherwise kill the rogue when he comes near you, then walk past the fighter to kill the wizard, then cleric, then fighter (he's probably slow and easy to catch, even if the armor makes him the tastiest)
Use see invisibility if there's a suspiciously rogue shaped spot in the water.
step 3 its your lair and they'll die if you want to
Have the fight in an area with knee deep water: it slows the party but not you.
Have areas of deeper water: you breathe water, the party doesnt. Drag someone under the water away from the rest of the party , and pick them off 1 by 1.
............Hole..........................Hole
entrance Hole ........................Hole
............hole...........................hole
They connect of course.
Magic items:
Roll it up in advance. If there are potions, chug em. Belt of giants strength? Put it on. Rings of deflection? Claw spinners? Slap em on.
Mature Adult Black Dragon
argh! it ate my post.
Step 1: Breath weapon is backup.
It looks cool, but you can do SO much more with your claw claw bite wing wing tail combo. Only use the breath weapon if you can't full attack someone.
I disagree, if the dragon can surprise the party or get the majority of the party in the breath weapon, use it as it has a recharge time. Especially as the breath weapon STAYS there (with a whopping 35' RADIUS) to deal more damage as time goes on, you can control where they fight and force them off land into bogs and difficult terrain (assuming ground based party) - And you're immune to the damage. If the party is on a boat in the swamp, the dragon is mobile enough to swim to either side and catch them from the sides with the breath weapon - The dragon has blindsense, a swim speed and waterbreathing says it can freely use its abilities while underwater (BW from below even) and the acid pool floats on water. The party can't target you as they can't see or target you in the swampy water at a distance of 60' (unless they have really specialized in detecting things). The dragon can fly, catching the party from above and out of range means decent AoE with no drawbacks. The breath weapon is a very nice thing on black dragons, the fact that it lingers and continues to deal damage (Mature: 14d6 initial, 7d6 the next round, 3d6 the following, 1d6 the last) means use it whenever it is possible to catch multiple characters.
step 2: spells.Keep an ear out for the party with that +23 perception of yours. cast mage armor and shield to send your ac to the stratosphere. If the wizard is tossing save or die, kill him first. otherwise kill the rogue when he comes near you, then walk past the fighter to kill the wizard, then cleric, then fighter (he's probably slow and easy to catch, even if the armor makes him the tastiest)
Use see invisibility if there's a suspiciously rogue shaped spot in the water.
Fly fly fly, the party will do it to you. Hover out of range (10' bite vs 5' melee means you "win"), all it takes is a fly skill check. Don't sit still unless you have no choice. Stay out of range and deal as much damage (BW & spells) as you can before closing. "Soften them up." Have a TWF rogue SA damage machine in the party? Don't let them get close and don't let them flank (hover destroys flank unless one of them can fly higher to get the flank line effect). The fighter is a melee type? Flying removes them from the fight until someone buffs them to fly, that takes an action away from the party members - possibly several to buff everyone. Movement on their end means no full round attacks while you have reusable strong attacks (bite with range, BW every 1-4 rounds, spells as a sorc.)
If you have to close in with the party breath at someplace between you and them while keeping you within the 35' radius. Punish them for being that close to you. Also, use Darkness on yourself (you got it aging up). Yes you might get a 20% miss chance but so do they. Chances are you have better reach and more attacks so it is less harmful for you 1 on 1 or 1 on 2. Also, darkness means they cannot sneak attack you unless they have darkvision (any concealment ruins SA). If they have darkvision, just don't let them get flank.
Pretty much agree with the rest of it. Even though the game is called Pathfinder, it is Dungeons and Dragons at its core, the PCs should FEAR the dragon.
Unfortunately, the OP is using only an Adult dragon, and not an Ancient one... Meaning no acid pool.
Beyond that, don't forget that this beastie will most likely have allies of the reptile sort to throw at the party also. Courtesy of his Charm Reptile SLA.
Unfortunately, the OP is using only an Adult dragon, and not an Ancient one... Meaning no acid pool.
Beyond that, don't forget that this beastie will most likely have allies of the reptile sort to throw at the party also. Courtesy of his Charm Reptile SLA.
Well bugger, it was the first ability under the dragon and I was like "that is damn cool" without really reading it or the table past Mature Adult :-( Regardless, breath weapons are a very good source of damage when you can get multiple characters and should be used on cool down as even half of 14d6 to all involved isn't anything to ignore.
And it looks like you made the same mistake lol, you need Great Wyrm before getting charm reptiles.
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my ideas - some things have already been mentioned but I may repeat them
it cant acid pool as someone mentioned but it can corrupt water with a range of its frightful presence - this means any potions the characters are carrying must make a DC will save equal to frightful presence - so on a flyby use this effect so players lose potential buffs and/or heals
BW when PCs are grouped close together - will usually only get 1 shot at this unless location forces them to - btw max BW damage 72 max melee 69 (although melee more likely to do more on average)
I doesnt have much in the way of spells for combat unless a mature adult black dragon is more powerful than an adult black dragon - if it is then use spells regularly dont melee unless you have to - thats how dragons live long lives - otherwise use mage armour before the fight starts use alarm to warn the dragon the pcs are coming
use the dragons hoard for buffs, combat uses & heals - why have it if you cant use it - it looking good wont help a dragon if the dragon is dead
just some of my thoughts
Unfortunately, the OP is using only an Adult dragon, and not an Ancient one... Meaning no acid pool.
Beyond that, don't forget that this beastie will most likely have allies of the reptile sort to throw at the party also. Courtesy of his Charm Reptile SLA.
Well bugger, it was the first ability under the dragon and I was like "that is damn cool" without really reading it or the table past Mature Adult :-( Regardless, breath weapons are a very good source of damage when you can get multiple characters and should be used on cool down as even half of 14d6 to all involved isn't anything to ignore.
And it looks like you made the same mistake lol, you need Great Wyrm before getting charm reptiles.
O,o?
*facepalm*
LMAO
it cant acid pool as someone mentioned but it can corrupt water with a range of its frightful presence - this means any potions the characters are carrying must make a DC will save equal to frightful presence - so on a flyby use this effect so players lose potential buffs and/or heals
Hurray for ridiculousness.
Don't forget about Combat Expertise and Mage Armor thats a +9 to it's AC he should have Mage Armor up all the time before the fight starts. Combat Expertise is a -5 to hit +5 dodge bonus to A.C for him.
I would also change out some of his spells, forget obscuring mist between darkness at will and blur you don't need another miss chance add shield for another +4 to A.C.
Thats an armor class of 44 and 20% miss chance from blur going after 2 spells. Thats another thing between speak with animals near his lair, alarm spell, and dragon senses he should have some prep time catching a dragon unaware is highly unlikely.
Think about changing out some feats, the vital strike chain in not needed you want to use combat expertise instead if only one attack is possible use breath weapon. Think about toughness instead an extra 16 h.p helps. Improved grab is great for the dragging them down under water or up into the air and dropping them tactics. Improved critical (bite) and blinding critical are fun too.
Note also when I run dragons I always give them more h.p about 9-10 per hit die instead of the average 6-7 per hit die on a d12.
Stay off the ground. Take Hover. There is absolutely no acceptable reason for a dragon to be within reach of the PCs. You have flight and superior reach -- just hover over them create your dust cloud for concealment and beat them like the little ape-things they are.
If the wizard seems like he wants to be all "Oh I got magics and bend reality" Just be all "Oh yeah? Will I bend it back then bend you over cause I AM magic and so much more."
The fighter should despair of ever reaching you -- and if he gets close you should just pick him up and shake him a couple of times. It won't take many they are depressingly fragile.
The rogue might be an issue -- follow him with your blindsense and then for S&Gs show him your breath weapon once -- with a DC that evasion cries over. Teach him to be all "Oh yeah I can dodge your breath!"
Keep an eye out for bows -- they start shooting high being a local mountain or something -- enough trees will work too, then just strike and fade.
Now the ape-things will out number you but not outclass you -- stay smart, stay froggy -- and don't forget to have a clone in waiting! ;D
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One of the main things to think about is that the dragon should _own_ the terrain.
Put him in a swamp, his home. There should be tons of vegetation, providing both cover and concealment.
The dragon has a swim speed of 60. And huge perception bonuses. If I were a Large Adult Dragon, I'd alternate my time between being completely underwater recharging my breath weapon, poking my head out to hit the party with the 12d6 breath weapon.
I'd try to find ways to lure the party into the swamp. Again, if you are simply doing hit-and-runs, the party is going to have to come to you if they want to kill you. They're likely to get quite pissed off at you for running the dragon this way, but face it, dragons are mean. They're not just XP packets waiting to be harvested. The range of the breath weapon is 80ft. That's 16 squares. It's unlikely in a swampy environment that they will be able to find anywhere to successfully hide, and if they do, you simply out-wait them.
I've run dragons, and the number one mistake I made was to be less than patient. Once you get in a position where the party can shoot you with arrows, or glitterdust you, or do anything else that limits you, you're done. Adult dragons don't get to grow that large by being reckless.
Imagine you are the dragon, in your swamp home. You claim X square miles as _your_ domain.
In walks a party of adventurers. To you, they look like nice tasty XP Packets. Oh, and they have magical gear too. Treasure for you to add to your lair.
Hunt them.
Stay hidden. Find a point where you can catch them in a line. Especially the weak looking one in the robes. Or the slow moving ones in armor.
Lift head above water, spray them. (Make your stealth checks- you have +20 stealth. Remember the -1/10 ft to the party's perception check. If you do this right, you can stay hidden from the party.)
Look, you've done between 21-42 points of damage. Back under water.
Wait to recharge. Wait to reposition yourself. Re-stealthify.
Wait for them to regroup. Maybe they let down their guard. Hit them again. Don't worry if they heal. They can't heal as many times a day as you can spray.
Be patient. You can win this fight in the end.
At some point, they might spot you. They might come for you in the water.
Swim away. You move faster underwater than they do on land.
If you see one party member separated from the group, you might think about melee, but really, this is a risk. The water is your home. Your safe zone. Don't leave the water.
Don't forget to use darkness. And obscuring mist.
Don't forget about your aura of frightful presence. It'll probably only put some of the party at shaken, but you can use an intimidate check to move them to frightened, and they'll flee. Once they do, either the entire party flees, or you've got one tasty morsel all on its own. Swim over to it, put obscuring mist around it so its friends can't see, and then gobble it up.
If at some point, the tide of the battle is turning against you, flee. You can fight another day. The important thing is to protect your lair and fight again another day.
Lots of good ideas above.
We need more info. Location of the fight? Does the party know they're fighting a black dragon?
If the party knows then they'll all be buffed to resist acid and his breath weapon won't be as effective.
You may want to play around with some of the metabreath feats or spells that augment his breath, maybe change the shape or change the energy type to surprise the players (although I'd probably put a limit on how many times this happens).
Use the terrain to your advantage. The water ideas above are excellent. Since dragons like swamps consider lots of mud or waist deep water to provide difficult terrain for the players (quick sand, anyone?). Lots of vegetation, maybe some entanglement spells, maybe some assassin vines.
(don't forget the PC's armor check penalties on swimming)
If you can, grapple the casters first and then plunge into the water and drown them. Of course with the current drowning rules that could take a while.
You could make it a cat-and-mouse game with the dragon flying off/swimming away, waiting for the party's buffs to wear off (ten minutes should work), maybe strafe them with your breath weapon while you wait (AC cover bonus for being mostly submerged?).
Just remember the dragon is hundreds of years old. They have fought adventurers before. It should be very hard to surprise (blindsense), low-light vision, and skill points galore.
Since dragons have low dex scores, give it a dex bonus item and then combat reflexes for when they close the gap.
Number one rule - if you don't have any minions to help the dragon then I suggest you augment the dragon's HPs significantly. Otherwise your party will annihilate it in very short order.
Just a few ideas.
My party recently went through an awesome black dragon fight. We all had to swim a few hundred feat to its lair while it chased after the rogue and dealt with some summoned monsters.
I gotta say though the lowest level spells were giving us the biggest problems. Cast mirror image on itself every time. Cast entropic shield to avoid the ranged attacks.
The second hardest part of our Dragon fight was that it had the feat Mage slayer from 3.5. (casters cannot cast defensively while threatened) He had 20' reach with his tail! It was NASTY!
Assuming that you want this to be a climactic encounter, the best advice I can give is - DON'T MAKE IT A SINGLE CREATURE.
Your best bet would be a mated pair of dragons, perhaps with a few young. One could be stronger then the other, but the two oldest should each be capable. You can also break up the combat so that the party gets to beat one one, then the other. The young could distract casters and harass sneaky types, and give good role play options of interaction with the dragons (e.g. the mother might take actions to protect her brood rather then finish off a PC, or not.)
Work out the treasure hoard before hand, and make sure that the dragon has some good scrolls such as dispel magic, resist energy, and protection from evil. A wand or two will also be nice. The dragon should also have some healing available. Speaking of resist energy, you could be an evil GM and put the party up against some fire creatures or cold creatures to get them to waste the spell on other energy types.
I like the idea of having multiple waterholes that it can go into. To keep it interesting, have a few skeletons lurking there to try and stab or grab anyone who enters. A tribe of kobalds would also keep things exciting, especially if there are a few clerics and/or sorcerers mixed in.
These are all great! Would love to hear more.
Think of the Dragon as THE KING ! He is a Fighter/Magic user ! He is THE Lord of his Domain, and whatever he says goes... He has retainers(intelligent Monsters), followers(Lizardfolk), minnions(Hobgoblins, Half Orcs, Orcs, Ogres, Bugbears etc.), slaves(Kobolds), concubines(Basilisk), and mates(Black Dragons), these things could have supply lines, and spies in other kingdomes, and Desna knows what going on, plus wizards making magic items to supply thier minnions and perhaps armies, also Witches and even Hags working for and or with them and Plus he is an eldrich Horror think movies like... Not sure the title but "the Cave" and others where they are picked off one by one by things unseen, stalked, and then at least in seccond edition "Dragon Fear" as these things were so horrible as elemental beings that they litterally humbled the best of us just by their presance because they were so frightenin. And if the thing is a Cleric to an evil Dragon God
like Tiamat(Takhisis) or Dahak or some such... and these monsters are geniuses !