i could be wrong, but it seems like vampires and their spawn are hands down superior to lycanthropes in D20 systems.
Assuming that I am not wrong, I would like to see a more equal footing.
I want to run an adventure where lycanthrope rebels are trying to win back a town dominated by vampires (the lycanthropes are still evil in this scenario)but I wanted to do it without having to add many class levels to important NPCs.
As written the lycanthropes don't seem to be much of a challenge in a toe-to toe fight ( I agree there are other tactics that can be used, but they won't work all the time- Vampires aren't stupid after all and realize their weaknesses).
As such, how can we modify the lycanthropes to make them more effective against undead?
Yes, I know this will likely change the CR. I'm fine with that.
Just make them stronger and taller, and speed their regeneration. Maybe permanent-haste in wolf form. To compensate for all of these changes, make vampires such that instead of turning to dust from sun, they give off a glittery twinkle.
But for that glittery twinkle, they need to have skin as hard as granite...
Yes.. I read the books. :oP
You do realize that those things don't work on us sparkly vamps. :oP
OK.. back to the OP. (sorry)
Ideally, werewolves should be beefed up such that in a fair fight, the werewolf wins every time. It's the vampire's job to make sure that it's never a fair fight.
Look at the way trolls have regen versus fire, and give werewolves that kind of regen versus silver. (As opposed to how weres work currently.) Give them DR 10 "good and silver" and the regen only disables if you punch through the DR.
Give them a handful of Druid spells as SLAs. Nothing with too much finesse, and stick to theme (Entangle is out, Magic Fang is in, Feary Fire is borderline). If you want to go full on "I'm barganing with a spirit to do this" you can throw in CHA-checks to bully them around to get extra uses, but then you're starting to stray a bit from PF rules.
Thalin suggested permanent Haste while in Garou form. That might be a bit much, maybe limit it to CON mod rounds per day? An alternative to this would be to give them Pounce (which of course is "always on").
Mine the Barb's Rage abilities for cool effects. Maybe a werewolf gains one of those for every other HD (or every HD) they acquire? And they are usuable only in Garou form (which is the were's equivilant of Rage afterall).
I don't know how far into WW you want to go, but you could make it so every were is under the effects of Rage (in all forms) when their particular Auspice moon is in the sky. (Then again, in PF, all weres just have "full" as their Auspice.)
Finally, when in doubt, just add HD. Nothing too terribly wrong with that.
Hope that helps!
Another option is to give WW levels in Barbarian with the rage power and extra health that comes with that.
You may also want to look at adding templates for WW to make them stronger.
Humans can be equal to dragons. All it takes is class levels.
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Humans can be equal to dragons. All it takes is class levels.
Exactly what he said he did not want.
I want to run an adventure where lycanthrope rebels are trying to win back a town dominated by vampires (the lycanthropes are still evil in this scenario)but I wanted to do it without having to add many class levels to important NPCs.
i could be wrong, but it seems like vampires and their spawn are hands down superior to lycanthropes in D20 systems.
Assuming that I am not wrong, I would like to see a more equal footing.
I want to run an adventure where lycanthrope rebels are trying to win back a town dominated by vampires (the lycanthropes are still evil in this scenario)but I wanted to do it without having to add many class levels to important NPCs.
As written the lycanthropes don't seem to be much of a challenge in a toe-to toe fight ( I agree there are other tactics that can be used, but they won't work all the time- Vampires aren't stupid after all and realize their weaknesses).
As such, how can we modify the lycanthropes to make them more effective against undead?
Yes, I know this will likely change the CR. I'm fine with that.
i would suggest either giving all Were-types a 1 level dip into Barbarian for rage (extra+1 cr and automatic elite array) and/or adding in either a resistance to, or immunity to level draining.(or negative energy in general)
i could be wrong, but it seems like vampires and their spawn are hands down superior to lycanthropes in D20 systems.
Assuming that I am not wrong, I would like to see a more equal footing
A really good rebellion relies on a weaker force bringing down a stronger force while they sleep/complacently sit on their thrones!
WE HAVE THE VIDEOS
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i could be wrong, but it seems like vampires and their spawn are hands down superior to lycanthropes in D20 systems.
Assuming that I am not wrong, I would like to see a more equal footing.
I want to run an adventure where lycanthrope rebels are trying to win back a town dominated by vampires (the lycanthropes are still evil in this scenario)but I wanted to do it without having to add many class levels to important NPCs.
As written the lycanthropes don't seem to be much of a challenge in a toe-to toe fight ( I agree there are other tactics that can be used, but they won't work all the time- Vampires aren't stupid after all and realize their weaknesses).
As such, how can we modify the lycanthropes to make them more effective against undead?
Yes, I know this will likely change the CR. I'm fine with that.
Just wrote this up. Hope it works for you.
Lycaon (Greater Werewolf)
Lycaons are lycanthropes possessed of greater size and power than their werewolf brethren, as they are derived from dire wolves.
Creating a Lycaon
“Lycaon” is an inherited (natural) or acquired (afflicted) template that can be added to any humanoid.
Challenge Rating: Same as base creature or base animal (whichever is higher) +2.
Senses: A lycaon gains low-light vision and Scent in all forms.
Size and Type: The creature gains the shapechanger subtype. A lycaon’s hybrid form is large (as is the dire wolf).
Armor Class: In dire wolf or hybrid form the lycaon has a natural armor bonus of +5.
Defensive Abilities: A natural lycaon gains DR 10/ magic and silver and Regeneration 5 (silver) in dire wolf and hybrid form. An afflicted lycaon gains DR 5/ magic and silver and Regeneration 2 (silver) in dire wolf and hybrid form.
Speed: Same as the base creature. In dire wolf and hybrid form, a lycaon has a speed of 50‘.
Melee: As base creature or dire wolf. In hybrid form a lycaon gains two claw attacks (1D6) and a bite (1D8 plus trip). In dire wolf or hybrid form, a lycaon’s natural weapons are treated as magic and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Special Attacks: Pounce, Rend (2 claws. 1D6+ 1-1/2 strength bonus), Trip (bite).
Change Shape (Su) Lycaons have three forms- humanoid (base creature), dire wolf form, and a hybrid form. Equipment does not meld with the new form between humanoid and hybrid form, but does between those forms and dire wolf form. A natural lycaon can shift between any of its three forms at will as a move action. An afflicted lycaon can assume dire wolf or hybrid form as a full-round action by making a DC 15 Constitution check, or humanoid form as a full-round action by making a DC 20 Constitution check. On nights when the full moon is visible, an afflicted lycaon gains a +5 morale bonus to Constitution checks made to assume dire wolf or hybrid form, but a -5 penalty to Constitution checks made to assume humanoid form. An afflicted lycaon reverts to its humanoid form automatically with the next sunrise, or after 8 hours of rest, whichever comes first. A slain lycaon reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead.
Curse of Lycanthropy (Su) A natural lycaon’s bite attack in dire wolf or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 18 negates).
Feral Empathy (Ex) In any form, a natural lycaon can communicate and empathize with wolves and dire wolves. They can use Diplomacy to alter a wolf’s attitude, and when so doing gain a +4 racial bonus to the check. Afflicted lycaons only gain this ability in dire wolf or hybrid form.
Ability Scores: +2 Wis, -2 Cha in all three forms; +6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con in dire wolf and hybrid form.
Skills: Lycaons gain a +8 racial bonus to Acrobatics and Climb checks, and a +4 racial bonus to Survival when tracking by scent.
Feats: Lycaons gain Alertness, Improved Initiative, Run, and Toughness as bonus feats.
i could be wrong, but it seems like vampires and their spawn are hands down superior to lycanthropes in D20 systems.
Assuming that I am not wrong, I would like to see a more equal footing.
I want to run an adventure where lycanthrope rebels are trying to win back a town dominated by vampires (the lycanthropes are still evil in this scenario)but I wanted to do it without having to add many class levels to important NPCs.
As written the lycanthropes don't seem to be much of a challenge in a toe-to toe fight ( I agree there are other tactics that can be used, but they won't work all the time- Vampires aren't stupid after all and realize their weaknesses).
As such, how can we modify the lycanthropes to make them more effective against undead?
Yes, I know this will likely change the CR. I'm fine with that.
3.5, IIRC, gave the ability modifiers and HD of the specific animal a werebeast was based upon. You could always reinstate that.
There are a few other options, if you were to look at D&D stuff. You could give your werewolves the base stats of the wolfwere (sort of a reverse werewolf and classic dnd baddie- stats for it are in multiple places IIRC but there is stats for a lesser and greater wolfwere in Ravenloft 3.5's monster book Denizens of Dread. Another option would be to give each werebeast unique powers like they sometimes did in Ravenloft (there's some guidelines for this in the 3e Ravenloft campaign setting and/or Ravenloft Player's Handbook.)
Thanks to everyone. So far there have been some great ideas and useful suggestions.
As was suggested before, I know that they could fight the human guardians to try and wrest the town while the vampires and spawn sleep.
In my adventure that was attempted several times during the period before the adventure begins. In the skirmishes and guerilla warfare, a stalemate has been reached. The vampires lose spawn they send out into the forest ( turns out it doesn't take too much to launch spawn onto broken branches in hybrid form), and werewolves lose pack members to human pawns and hunters with silver when they attack the town during the day.
What I want is for them to attack at night when the vampires really don't expect them to ( being the annoyingly over-confident fiends that they are).
Giving them physical ability increases similiar to those granted to vampires seems to make sense, as does limited ability to rage or increasing their DR/fast healing.
I really want to make the Weres' powers the antithesis of the vampires. I.E. the vampires feed on life and life-drain, I want the Weres to be over-flowing with life energy.
I want a power/ablility that plays on that life-energy idea without making them completely dominant to the vampire as written.
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Thanks to everyone. So far there have been some great ideas and useful suggestions.
As was suggested before, I know that they could fight the human guardians to try and wrest the town while the vampires and spawn sleep.
In my adventure that was attempted several times during the period before the adventure begins. In the skirmishes and guerilla warfare, a stalemate has been reached. The vampires lose spawn they send out into the forest ( turns out it doesn't take too much to launch spawn onto broken branches in hybrid form), and werewolves lose pack members to human pawns and hunters with silver when they attack the town during the day.
What I want is for them to attack at night when the vampires really don't expect them to ( being the annoyingly over-confident fiends that they are).
Giving them physical ability increases similiar to those granted to vampires seems to make sense, as does limited ability to rage or increasing their DR/fast healing.I really want to make the Weres' powers the antithesis of the vampires. I.E. the vampires feed on life and life-drain, I want the Weres to be over-flowing with life energy.
I want a power/ablility that plays on that life-energy idea without making them completely dominant to the vampire as written.
Defensively you could always give them a resistance to death effects (+4 maybe). This would be similar to the vampire's channel resistance. If you're looking for something more offensive, you could add a Charisma drain to their natural attacks against undead (since Charisma increases undead hit points).
You may want to look at a change that is CULTURAL rather than mechanical, namely, pack tactics. Sure, in a one on one fight a vamp will stomp a were, but what wolf fights one on one? I would think Spring Attack would be a natural here, as well as day time ambushes. I would think a large enough group of were's could easily overcome a castles mortal defenders and set fire to it.
One of the WotC splat books even had a Pact Tactics or Wolf Pack tactical feat.
Or the wolves can just step sideways and shred the vamps in the Umbra.
Easy-peasy.
You could make the werewolves mechanically greater barghests. Change the DR to 10/silver and the at-will spells to something more in line with your concept (maybe druidic spells?) and then just alter the fluff to make the barghest form a wolf-hybrid and the worg form a wolf. Some individual alterations would make them character specific.
Vampires are not known for the ability to work together. They are always wanting to be the head vamp and will be happy to destroy each other to become the head vampire.
While werewolves on the other hand are based on a pack animal so therefore work well in packs.
In a one on one stand up fight the vampire wins, fast healing, DR while the ww does not have against the vamp. Werewolves would not attack one on one, but many on one.
Some would attack the vamp head on while others charge into the vampires layer looking for its coffin.
Or the werewolves try to trick the vampire to fight them near running water and then the grapple him into the water and hold him underwater a few rounds.
So the werewovles can beat a vampire if they use tactics.
What people say here is true. Tactics are an advantage in a protracted conflict. So is attacking during daytime.So is the fact that vampires don't really work well with each other even when dominated by the same master vamp (not to mention animalistic spawn). This we all know and is being used as part of the story before the PCs arrive; it helps to explain the stalemate.
The vamps have tactics too don't forget. Domination, intimidation, the promise of immortality to their sympathizers and psychophants, hostage-taking to keep the goodly creatures in town in line...
All explains the current stalemate.
I like the idea of making normal werewolves the equal to vampire spawn. I think that can be done with little tweaking other than maybe advancing the HD a little and chaning some feats/adding abilities (I really like the rage idea mentioned earlier).
I think the Alpha of the pack should have the same/or near same power over his subordinates that the master vampire does. I also think I will give him the same ability boosts. I see no reason why an Alpha were could not have a high charisma; animal magnitism and all that.
Also, I am toying with the idea of adding certain feats to the weres when they encounter vampires (some feats from Castle Ravenloft/Libris Mortis look good). Likewise, maybe weres are mortal enemies to vampires and vamps get a +1 to hit them (you know, to try and balance things out).
It really comes down to the night fight during the climax of the adventure. The vampires turn a great number of people (basically everyone old, sick and in prison at the time)and send them out to kill everything in the forest. The Weres, their pack depleted a bit by the fighting at this point, have to 'attack the head' as it were, because they can not stand up against that many spawn even on their home turf.
So, the Alpha and Master Vamp have it out and the players get to help decide the outcome (I don't have the players going up against the Master Vamp for two reasons 1. They have already faced the underbosses that night, 2. the Alpha would try to kill them if they interfere -before the time is right for my story that is-. As such, the Alpha needs to not get trounced.
I am leaning towards creating an Alpha were template with enough boosts that give it a +3 to CR.
Increasing stats like a vampire is a start, maybe the rage power, and extra feats/druid spells, Change in DR as per the suggestions mentioned earlier.
For the regular werewolves, maybe the change in DR and Rage power, as well as putting their ability boosts inline with those of the spawn.
I won't get the time to due this up for a little while, but if there is anybody out there that wants to take up this mantle, I will be greatful.
Thanks to everyone posting.
Yes.. I read the books. :oP...
*whips out crucifix*
Begone foul being from whence you came!!!
:-P
Problem is, they are not real vampires so that wont work.
Count Chocula makes a better vampire than those things that twinkle.
I really want to make the Weres' powers the antithesis of the vampires. I.E. the vampires feed on life and life-drain, I want the Weres to be over-flowing with life energy.
I want a power/ablility that plays on that life-energy idea without making them completely dominant to the vampire as written.
Well, one way you might justify this is the link between moonlight and the sun. Moonlight is really just reflected sun light. Perhaps the werewolves could somehow refocus the moon's light within themselves to make it more like sunlight and use it as a weapon against the vamps? In game terms, I dunno what this would do (maybe channel positive energy?) but it's some (however tenuous) justification for positive energy abilities.
Also, you should look at the feat "Eldritch Claws" in the Advanced Player's Guide. It makes your natural weapons count as magical and silver (the vampire's weakness) for the purposes of overcoming DR.
if you have access to the 3.5 Draconomicon- it has a large number of feats for would-be dragon hunters. They range from skill bonuses to attack bonuses to damage bonuses and all that, against dragons.
It would be very easy to adapt those feats for the weres to use against the vampires. Resistance to their aura could be reworked into resistance vs the domination (and such) effects of vampires, and such and so on.
There are also various dragon hunter prestige classes (for heavy melee, casters, and skill classes) that could be re-worked into were vs vampire themes without too much trouble.
I know you don't want class levels and such- but its a decent way to adjust their CR and also to make some of the were's special. "Well, Sharpfang over there is our vampire killer expert. We can all kill them if we get the drop on them but he takes out two or three at once and makes it look easy" or whatnot.
Just thoughts.
-S
edited for spelling.
Last two posts offer great ideas. This is what I have been doing before I read them: werewolves get the rage abilities equal to bararians of their HD. In the presence of vampires, (mortal enemies in my world) they shift (yes I know they already shapeshift) into advanced/tougher versions of themselves as long as the vampire is in there presence (via the advanced monster template). They must make will saves to do or attack anything other than the vampires during this time. I also allow supernatual creatures to overcome the DR of each other as if they held a magical weapon of the appropriate type. Much like how Angels and Devils/Demons are able to hurt each other.
Seems to work pretty well against the spawn and because they attack in packs ( pack tactics works great for werewolves by the way)full vampires are a little wary as well.
I'd overhaul the vamp powers to be dependent on age so that a young vamp and a little less fanciness, gaseous form and such is a bit much to give every vamp. Otherwise there were some great ideas in here to bring some more equal footing.
I'd overhaul the vamp powers to be dependent on age so that a young vamp and a little less fanciness, gaseous form and such is a bit much to give every vamp. Otherwise there were some great ideas in here to bring some more equal footing.
Yeah I like that idea. It reminds me of what was done in the Ravenloft books with giving powers with age.
I gotta say, I actually am a fan of the class levels. I've hammered out a set of supernatural player-level races (vampire & werewolf among them) for that reason. Also solves issues such as the "age" powers, an elder vampire is simply a higher level character. Toss in an assortment of feats that unlock wicked fun supernatural powers and you have young vampires (level 1, 2) with skills but not uber-awesome powers and elder characters (level 10, 15) with wicked class skills AND wicked supernatural powers.
My 3 thoughts on this:
First, why werewolves? Why not werebears? or Dire Werewolves? Or WereT-Rexes? There are more options then just wolves.
Second, although the vampire template is very strong, there are GLARING weaknesses. Running water, Sunlight, a Garlic smoke bombs, running into a house, hell even a Mid-tier cleric (Protection from evil + Divine power + Righteous might + disrupting weapon = winner against almost infinity vampires) will all end an encounter, half the time in death of the vampire, all without dealing actual damage, just death. Meanwhile, the natural lycanthrope has none. He only draws strengths from his template.
Third, A lycanthrope keeps all of the animal's abilities scores and its class abilities in hybrid form, so you can focus your points in mental abilities while gaining high physical stats form the chosen animal. This all adds up to a CR 10 Weretyrannosaurus with 9 levels in Cleric. Pretty sure that can kill most vampires.
Basically, if you build it right and act smart, its a fair fight.
There is a ritural(though not detailed or put into mechanics really) in Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Darkmoon Vale that make lycanthropes immune to silver. Taking away that weakness even for a small percentage of them could be a balancing act between the two forces.
Also have to say greater number also works well.
