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It might have been discussed before but the lack of details about using the acrobatics skill to avoid AoO has always confused me. I have my own ideas/opinions on how it should work but I wonder what the rest of you do/think. My first question is when do you need to make a check or if you prefer how many checks do you need to do? Once per square? Once per enemy? Once per move action? Once per round? Second, can you "turn it on and off" in a single move action? Per example, if you have a speed of 30 ft., can you move 10 feet normally and then move 10 more feet at half speed, only avoiding AoO in that last part of movement?
Thanks.
when do you need to make a check or if you prefer how many checks do you need to do?
Initially I thought once per threatened square you wish to move out of, due to the wording "you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics."
But later on, it says the situation is "Move through a threatened area" and increases the DC for each additional opponent avoided. So then I would say one check per creature whose threatened squares you wish to move through.
I could see an argument either way, but personally I think it's hard enough to tumble around with just one check per enemy.
Second, can you "turn it on and off" in a single move action? Per example, if you have a speed of 30 ft., can you move 10 feet normally and then move 10 more feet at half speed, only avoiding AoO in that last part of movement?
I think you would only be tumbling in the threatened squares, not your entire movement. "When moving in this way, you move at half speed." I take 'this way' to mean the acrobatic tumbling which you do to avoid AoOs.
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I agree with Grick on both points here. I've always run that acrobatics is one/creature regardless of number of squares of movement (unless you must take a second move action), and that you only incur extra movement cost on the squares you move out of that are threatened. Sort-of a difficult terrain modifier.
The rules are similar to stealth, you chose to make a movement (normally at half movement rate) and make an acrobatics check for that movement. You roll once for every movement action made (IE twice if you spend the round making a double move). The check for the movement is the roll you compare to the CMB of each of the opponents threatening you for that particular movement. The check is only compared for the first instance of you moving out of a threatened square (per the rules for movement based AoO) for that particular enemy. Each check after the first opponent will increase the DC by +2 (or every additional opponent has an additional +2 to their CMB for each check prior - +2 for second mob, +4 third mob, +6 fourth mob, etc.).
Paizo stated one of their design philosophies when putting Pathfinder together was a minimizing of the rolls that interrupt the flow of combat.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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can you "turn it on and off" in a single move action?
Prior to this week, I've never heard of the concept you may not be able to turn it off.
A player at a table at the Con asserted you have to move at half speed the whole move action even though you are tumbling out of only one threatened square.
I don't agree with his theory, but I'd love to have an answer in the FAQ.
can you "turn it on and off" in a single move action?Prior to this week, I've never heard of the concept you may not be able to turn it off.
A player at a table at the Con asserted you have to move at half speed the whole move action even though you are tumbling out of only one threatened square.
I don't agree with his theory, but I'd love to have an answer in the FAQ.
I agree with the player, the skill states that using acrobatics is part of another action. As we're using a movement action (5' wouldn't provoke so irrelevant, or Run action) acrobatics would be made as part of that. It also states when moving in this way you move at half speed. Half speed is decidedly different than each square costs double movement or treat threatened squares as hampered/difficult movement. It also simplifies the book keeping aspect which Paizo stated they wanted to do (not that it is really hard math for movement).
Think of stealth. Do you make a check for each square you move through or just for that movement? It is an action that modifies the movement and causes you to move at half speed (minus other stuff), why would acrobatics be different?
Think of stealth. Do you make a check for each square you move through or just for that movement?
Except you probably want to be sneaky for that whole movement, rather than just sneaking through one square. I don't see why someone who wanted to sneak past an open doorway without being spotted couldn't move normally up to the door way, sneak across the opening at half speed, then move normally past it.
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed.
I read this as only using the skill when moving through a threatened square. Move normally 15 feet, tumble through a threatened square, move normally 5 more feet.
the skill states that using acrobatics is part of another action. As we're using a movement action acrobatics would be made as part of that.
As written, you're probably right. I don't know why someone who wants to move through a 5' threatened square would dive, flip, jump, and roll their entire action, rather than just in the threatened square, but I'm not sure using Acrobatics "as a reaction to a situation" would cover avoiding an AoO. (Rather than trying to jump free of a pit trap, or keeping your balance if you're teleported onto a steep slope)
I'll FAQ Reptilian's post and maybe we'll see an official answer.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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the skill states that using acrobatics is part of another action.
Our interpretations turn on the meaning of the word "part" in this context.
I assert that part is 1 square in a 30 ft move.
You assert that all of the move is "part".
Neither has a rule to force the interpretation one way or another.
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the skill states that using acrobatics is part of another action.Our interpretations turn on the meaning of the word "part" in this context.
I assert that part is 1 square in a 30 ft move.
You assert that all of the move is "part".Neither has a rule to force the interpretation one way or another.
I would assert that the definition of "part" varies from instance to instance so as to prevent having to define a different word for when they mean 1 square or the whole action or something else entirely.
You can do a touch attack as part of the action to cast a melee touch spell.
You can stealth as part of an action made to move.
You can (with a BAB of +1 or greater) draw your weapon as part of an action made to move.
The list goes on. Most of these are actions that you get for "free" and thus have nothing to debate. The others (namely those as part of a move action) work differently as the granularity can be smaller and still fit within the gamist approximations of "squares."
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Now I went back into 3.5 and found a couple instances of the FAQ or the Sage or Customer Service ruling that you only halved your speed in the squares you actualy tumble through.
As for the number of checks it is a check per opponent you tumble by, so if you tumble past 3 foes the DC's are CMD, CMD+2, CMD+4.
The entire Acrobatics skill is made as part of another action. You could conceivably make several Acrobatics (jump) checks in a single move action.
For example a 10th level Monk with a speed of 60ft. could cross a wide pit filled with narrow pillars or columns by making multiple Acrobatics checks to jump, balance, and even tumble if there's a foe threatening areas of that single move action.
--School of Vrock.
Think of stealth. Do you make a check for each square you move through or just for that movement?Except you probably want to be sneaky for that whole movement, rather than just sneaking through one square. I don't see why someone who wanted to sneak past an open doorway without being spotted couldn't move normally up to the door way, sneak across the opening at half speed, then move normally past it.
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed.I read this as only using the skill when moving through a threatened square. Move normally 15 feet, tumble through a threatened square, move normally 5 more feet.
And while I agree with what you said, the other side of that is... As an acrobatics check you are intentionally moving in a defensive manner to not provoke AoOs, you don't always know when you are going to be attacked by an AoO. What if the opponent is invisible and you are unaware of them?? Just because you choose to not move a half speed are you supposed to take the AoO or is the DM supposed to say "oh wait you need to use double movement there as there is someone you don't see who could attack you"? Choices being you take the attack eve though you stated you are using acrobatics to not provoke attacks or the DM gives away knowledge you shouldn't have for "free." It adds another complexity to the game. Paizo has stated repeatedly they are attempting to simplify things. By having an acrobatics roll once for the entire movement and applying the roll to all possible attacks things are simple and they keep down the excess die rolling.
As written, you're probably right. I don't know why someone who wants to move through a 5' threatened square would dive, flip, jump, and roll their entire action, rather than just in the threatened square, but I'm not sure using Acrobatics "as a reaction to a situation" would cover avoiding an AoO. (Rather than trying to jump free of a pit trap, or keeping your balance if you're teleported onto a steep slope)I'll FAQ Reptilian's post and maybe we'll see an official answer.
For the same reason they do it for stealth, you have an intention of doing something so you act accordingly for the duration of that action. If I have 40' movement and only 10' of the area I'm moving through is actually visible by the possible opponent, why do I have to move the entire movement as if trying to hide? Why can't I micro manage my movement while stealthed if I can why acrobatically moving through the same area?
@King of Vrock. The 3.5 FAQ is all good but we're playing Pathfinder and on several occasions they have contradicted the 3.5 FAQ so unfortunately it means nothing. It was what it was, PF is what it is. The only time I bring up the 3.5 anymore is if it is something someone is trying to bring into a PFRPG game and it wasn't OGL and wasn't "redone." Seeing as it isn't in PF the old rulings should be enforced in that case.
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the skill states that using acrobatics is part of another action.Our interpretations turn on the meaning of the word "part" in this context.
I assert that part is 1 square in a 30 ft move.
You assert that all of the move is "part".Neither has a rule to force the interpretation one way or another.
I am in the whole movement is halved camp. Keeps it quick and simple in my games. Your methods may vary of course. Then again, I never even considered the alternate reading of the rule. I also will click the ol' FAQ button. I may just keep my interpretation if yours proves correct. Sometimes movement bogs down my games enough already *sighs*
Greg
The 3.5 FAQ is all good but we're playing Pathfinder and on several occasions they have contradicted the 3.5 FAQ so unfortunately it means nothing. It was what it was, PF is what it is. The only time I bring up the 3.5 anymore is if it is something someone is trying to bring into a PFRPG game and it wasn't OGL and wasn't "redone." Seeing as it isn't in PF the old rulings should be enforced in that case.
The wording is the same for many things since a lot of Pathfinder was just copied and pasted. Unless the words changed the rules work the same way. If the wording has changed in a particular situation then most likely the rule has changed to some extent.
I think saying it means nothing is somewhat extreme. Saying it is not always accurate in light of the new changes is more accurate.Now to comment on the topic at hand.
PRD:In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed.
Once you are past the enemy you are no longer moving in that way so you should be able to return to full speed.
The 3.5 FAQ is all good but we're playing Pathfinder and on several occasions they have contradicted the 3.5 FAQ so unfortunately it means nothing. It was what it was, PF is what it is. The only time I bring up the 3.5 anymore is if it is something someone is trying to bring into a PFRPG game and it wasn't OGL and wasn't "redone." Seeing as it isn't in PF the old rulings should be enforced in that case.The wording is the same for many things since a lot of Pathfinder was just copied and pasted. Unless the words changed the rules work the same way. If the wording has changed in a particular situation then most likely the rule has changed to some extent.
I think saying it means nothing is somewhat extreme. Saying it is not always accurate in light of the new changes is more accurate.Now to comment on the topic at hand.
PRD:In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed.Once you are past the enemy you are no longer moving in that way so you should be able to return to full speed.
If the FAQ cannot be counted upon to be upheld every time, it is in effect, useless. If I can ask a rules question, point to the 3.5 FAQ and say "See here is how it works, same wording and all!" and have the Pazio crew say "No, not now" it cannot be relied upon to settle questions or rules ambiguities. That is how it did work, not necessarily how it does...
Except at any point in time you cannot know you are past the enemy. You are assuming you are, but that doesn't mean it is true. Again back to what I posted above. An invisible unknown enemy is just past a visible enemy. You state you are moving "acrobatically" to not provoke AoOs. You spend the movement to get around the first enemy and then are in the square where the invisible enemy could attack as well. You decide you can stop moving "acrobatically" and take one to the face with a nice SA to top it off. You complain cause you were supposed to be using acrobatics. DM says you stopped moving double which leads to you saying "if I had know I wouldn't have stopped." You cause complexity for no reason. If you are moving at half speed for you movement action it doesn't matter, you made your check and the action is a blanket effect. You simplify things.
Also note, an enemy could decide to not attack you anyways, you cannot always know a threatened area is (again unseen enemies). So if you are moving "acrobatically" it should apply to all your possible movements for that action. If it should apply to all your movements so should the penalty to movement.
What if the opponent is invisible and you are unaware of them??
If you are unaware of them, why would you be tumbling? Do you tumble all day long? If you know there's an invisible enemy around, then you could choose to tumble for your entire move and move around at half speed, that's the player's choice.
Just because you choose to not move a half speed are you supposed to take the AoO
Well, yeah. If you're not tumbling, your movement provokes like normal.
or is the DM supposed to say "oh wait you need to use double movement there as there is someone you don't see who could attack you"?
Of course not. The player chose to move normally, and it provoked.
Choices being you take the attack eve though you stated you are using acrobatics to not provoke attacks or the DM gives away knowledge you shouldn't have for "free."
Not at all. You state during your movement which squares you are tumbling through. If there's an invisible enemy, or an enemy has reach and you didn't know it, then you get smacked.
For the same reason they do it for stealth, you have an intention of doing something so you act accordingly for the duration of that action. If I have 40' movement and only 10' of the area I'm moving through is actually visible by the possible opponent, why do I have to move the entire movement as if trying to hide? Why can't I micro manage my movement while stealthed if I can why acrobatically moving through the same area?
Well, yeah, that's what I said earlier. Why -wouldn't- you only sneak through the squares you want to be sneaky in? Why sneak for 10' before you get to the doorway?
Except at any point in time you cannot know you are past the enemy. You are assuming you are, but that doesn't mean it is true. Again back to what I posted above. An invisible unknown enemy is just past a visible enemy. You state you are moving "acrobatically" to not provoke AoOs. You spend the movement to get around the first enemy and then are in the square where the invisible enemy could attack as well. You decide you can stop moving "acrobatically" and take one to the face with a nice SA to top it off.
Yes, this sounds right. The player chooses which squares to tumble through. If he's not tumbling, his movement provokes like normal.
You complain cause you were supposed to be using acrobatics. DM says you stopped moving double which leads to you saying "if I had know I wouldn't have stopped."
But you didn't know, and you did stop, so you got smacked. Player is whining for no reason?
Also note, an enemy could decide to not attack you anyways, you cannot always know a threatened area is (again unseen enemies). So if you are moving "acrobatically" it should apply to all your possible movements for that action. If it should apply to all your movements so should the penalty to movement.
Correct, the penalty applies to all the squares you tumble through. If you tumble through one square, you take the movement penalty for that square, and can make an acrobatics check to avoid AoOs in that square. If you tumble through your entire move, you take the movement penalty for that entire move, and can make acrobatics checks to avoid AoOs in that entire move.
No one is suggesting you only take a movement penalty for one square but gain the benefits for your entire movement.
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Just wanted to address the reason for stealthing the whole distance as opposed to just the 5 or 10 feet in front of the doorway.
Because perception covers more than just sight. If you walk along normally before you get to the doorway that your enemy is in view of, then he'll likely hear you coming before you tiptoe across the opening.