As the thread says what do you think are the bad elements of Pathfinder. Please keep the topic civil.
It didn't fix the caster/melee power discrepency at higher levels. It moved away from save or die, but still left one save or die spell in at most levels.
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Some bad/poorly done elements.
1) Crafting system.
-This is a large remnant from 3.5. It technically works, but it is very ineloquent, bulky, and not very player friendly.
2) Feats = Character customization
-PERSONAL NITPICK HERE!! I am personally bothered by the fact that 80%(+) of character customization is expected to be done through the feat system, meaning that certain classes are just factually more locked into what their role and playstyle is. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the archetypes as laid out in the APG and want more, these are the PERFECT way to mix up the classes without adding any real bloat to the system.
3) HP = Healthbar
-I understand that it is an extraction to allow for a certain level of playability but it totally shatters any concept of realism. The fact that a nearly unconscious person can fight, cast spells, and run around just as well (and unhindered) as someone of comparable level who just stepped out of his morning shower, massage, and daily clerical restoration.
It takes my moneys.
That is one of the worst qualities of Pathfinder.
Not having enough time to play/run all the campaign ideas in my head.
Not having enough time to play/run all the campaign ideas in my head.Oh man, that might be the other worst thing.
Oh no. That's not the worst. The worst is having all the character ideas I wanna play and not enough games to play them in.
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3) HP = Healthbar
-I understand that it is an extraction to allow for a certain level of playability but it totally shatters any concept of realism. The fact that a nearly unconscious person can fight, cast spells, and run around just as well (and unhindered) as someone of comparable level who just stepped out of his morning shower, massage, and daily clerical restoration.
I hear that Rolemaster came up with a way to add more realism to injured pcs....
The complicated rules and size of rulebook is a barrier to new players (hopefully soon-to-be-fixed). I can't imagine grabbing a copy to try with a few friends unless one of us had already played it.
Also, althoug I can't quite put my finger on what it is, we only played one game of 3.5 before pathfinder and in some, hard-to-articulate way I suspect ties in with the backwards compatibility, it sometimes feels that the rules are assuming some prior knowledge about 'how things used to be'. If this is not a figment of my imagination, it is probably a huge strength currently, but may become a hindrance as the number of 3.5 -> PF people diminishes.
(I'm fully aware that the last paragraph has lots of words with not much content. There's something I want to identify as basically a non-3.5 player who has picked up PF, I just can't quite make sense of it).
As the thread says what do you think are the bad elements of Pathfinder. Please keep the topic civil.
While I am a bit new to Pathfinder and have a lot of likes, I do not like how casters are now even more powerful. While some spells are nerfed, casters get a net +1 DC due to getting +2 in thier caster stat. Not to mention they got more hitpoints and other cool things. It's too much.
I may be misidentifying the root cause. Perhaps it isn't casters and it is more the fact that saving throws are too low.
...Also, althoug I can't quite put my finger on what it is, we only played one game of 3.5 before pathfinder and in some, hard-to-articulate way I suspect ties in with the backwards compatibility, it sometimes feels that the rules are assuming some prior knowledge about 'how things used to be'. ...
I often exactly relate to that feeling.
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1. Personally, I feel like the caster vs. non-caster power gap was narrowed but not closed by PF.
2. The xmas tree effect is still in full swing, IMHO has not been fixed properly. I feel that patching it by dropping or raising encounter CRs by one doesn't cut it - not having magic items widens the caster/non-caster gap (by scuttling saves and disallowing non-casters from breaking the rules of reality with super-powered gear), and the game's core materials have not offered up any alternative ways to keep character classes even.
And the worst thing about Paizo, and by extension, Pathfinder, is that they always leave me wanting more!
+1
I hope, one day, to look, as a satisfied player and customer, back on 8 years of nonstop development and products for Pathfinder the same way that I did when official WotC 3E was coming to an end.
But I'm really impatient. I keep wishing that day was today.
No love for the Universalist Wizard.
Seriously, School ability #1? If I can't hit the broad side of a barn while I'm standing right next to it, what makes you think I should waste a round trying to hit it from 30 feet away?
School ability #2? I need to pay a feat tax to use a class ability?
School ability #3? No third ability...
Extra spell slot per level? No! No love for you!
And this balances with the 2 slots and -4 for Crafting for opposition schools?
Here's and idea for a new Universalist archetype: I'll trade School ability #1 for a Spectral Hand like effect, & School ability #2 for that extra spell slot per level.
It is way to rules heavy.
Agree, but I wouldn't necessarily consider this a negative in Pathfinder's column.
From my experience games that are worth playing fall into two categories: 1) Story driven/less rules and 2)Story driven/more rules. Others that try to fall somewhere in the middle usually feel like they're missing something. This was my problem with the early FASA games (Shadowrun, Earthdawn). Great story development and world environment, but the game system seemed to be half done. I tinkered with using WoD rules for a Shadowrun campaign and it was pretty fun, thus moving more into category 1.
Anyway, Pathfinder lays it on pretty thick, but I guess that's the result of inheriting years of game design. I don't think it's necessary to implement every single rule if you don't want to...the system works perfectly fine if you need to keep your game running smoothly by omitting what doesn't work for your game.
If there is one actual flaw in the game design that is worth saying it's the "worst" is the unbalance at hight levels. But again, this doesn't appear in all campaigns and with all players, but it's definitely there.
As the thread says what do you think are the bad elements of Pathfinder. Please keep the topic civil.
[humour]Dear Efreeti lookalike,
Well obviously we succubi are well wicked and way cool, but if you meant to indicate 'bad' in the sense of unbelievably tiresome, there are far too many rule books and not enough calendars featuring the iconics romping with the Nymphs & Satyrs Club of Kyonin circa 4711 Absalom Reckoning.Fortunately Paizo are at heart true disciples of Chaos (well that and a couple of my cousins - including Lucitricia, who says 'hi' by the way to a particular member of staff and that she's not interested in receiving child maintenance - were visiting the offices when the editors could have been editing, so they obviously had other things to do than stare at computer screens or proofs) and sprinkle their rule books with regular helpings of material guaranteed to confuse and confound the overly literal minded.
Hoping that you find this response helpful.
Yours,
Ask A Succubus. [/humour]
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It takes my moneys.
Not having enough time to play/run all the campaign ideas in my head.
And the worst thing about Paizo, and by extension, Pathfinder, is that they always leave me wanting more!
All of the above! + not having a group to play it with.
As for the rules, I alter or throw out so many things in every game I run that I'll actually have to go back and read the real rules to see what I didn't like. If anything.
I will say that I've never been fond of spells level not equaling caster level. That has never made sense to me. I also don't like magic users knowing more spells than they can actually cast or only being able to cast "x" spells of each level.
I've always thought you should know "x"+int/cha/wis amount of spells per level and then you get a pool of magic or casting points that you can use to cast any spell that you know, regardless of level.
The magic system is one of the first things I tweaked in 3e and PFRPG, so I guess that the magic system is my pet peeve.
I hear that Rolemaster came up with a way to add more realism to injured pcs....
3) HP = Healthbar
-I understand that it is an extraction to allow for a certain level of playability but it totally shatters any concept of realism. The fact that a nearly unconscious person can fight, cast spells, and run around just as well (and unhindered) as someone of comparable level who just stepped out of his morning shower, massage, and daily clerical restoration.
Yes - Rolemaster is an excellent system for injuries and their effect on a person/creature during combat. Unfortunately, it is also a very math intensive game that can slow things down if you and your players don't have a solid knowledge of the system.
I ran RM for over 5 years and loved it, but like my other love, Amber DRPG, it's not for everyone.
If you have the opportunity to look over their combat system, you may be able to adapt some of their features to your campaigns.
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It's based on 3x and maintained backward compatibility with a lot of stuff I can't stand about 3x. Didn't actually address the issues with the mundane/magic power discrepancy. Kept the (imo) #1 mundane killer, the standard/move/full action dynamic of 3x. It amazes me that a wizard can cast earth shattering magic and move 30 feet when a fighter gets to, oh, swing one damned time if he moves 30 feet. Hate that. Oh, and the whole "casting earth shattering magic when three goons are trying to take your head off" concentration check bs.
Most of my issues with Pf are holdovers from my issues with 3x in general, actually.
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I hear that Rolemaster came up with a way to add more realism to injured pcs....
3) HP = Healthbar
-I understand that it is an extraction to allow for a certain level of playability but it totally shatters any concept of realism. The fact that a nearly unconscious person can fight, cast spells, and run around just as well (and unhindered) as someone of comparable level who just stepped out of his morning shower, massage, and daily clerical restoration.
Yes - Rolemaster is an excellent system for injuries and their effect on a person/creature during combat. Unfortunately, it is also a very math intensive game that can slow things down if you and your players don't have a solid knowledge of the system.
I ran RM for over 5 years and loved it, but like my other love, Amber DRPG, it's not for everyone.
If you have the opportunity to look over their combat system, you may be able to adapt some of their features to your campaigns.
Considering that Arms Law, Claw Law and Spell Law were originally published as alternative systems for AD&D (and combined as a stand alone - Rolemaster - later), it is rather easy to overlay them. I used quite a bit from all three in my AD&D houserules :)
Also, althoug I can't quite put my finger on what it is, we only played one game of 3.5 before pathfinder and in some, hard-to-articulate way I suspect ties in with the backwards compatibility, it sometimes feels that the rules are assuming some prior knowledge about 'how things used to be'.
That is far too true.
There is too much that was changed, mashed with things that weren't changed, or changed ever so slightly, that anyone who is familiar with 3.5 is left scratching their head wondering 'how "rule XYZ" was intended to be interpreted, because it appears that "rule STU" was changed and "XYZ" was left alone... Was that on purpose? Overlooked? What?'
And, as of yet, getting an easy to find response from those that developed Pathfinder is difficult at best. (And woe to the person that should DARE to ask for the developers to answer their unworthy questions on these forums!)
WHAT IS THE WORST THING ABOUT PATHFINDER? (assuming we are just talking about the Core books )
1) To many rules: Feats, Flanking, AoO, Cover: all of which equals penalties for Not knowing something (which you have to then look up).
2)Magic (getting harder with each new upgrade): The need of some spells to have both a Attack Roll & Saving Throw. (Should be one or the other but not both).
3)Magic Item: page 548-553 need some minor revisions, to clear up the confusion of who can do what, who can help them, what they can help them with.
4): Prefer Fun, Fast, Easy rules to remember. Even if that means the stone block i just push out of the way, bounces when it hits the ground. (Indian Jones, sorry was Raider of the Lost Ark)
It's based on 3x and maintained backward compatibility with a lot of stuff I can't stand about 3x. Didn't actually address the issues with the mundane/magic power discrepancy. Kept the (imo) #1 mundane killer, the standard/move/full action dynamic of 3x. It amazes me that a wizard can cast earth shattering magic and move 30 feet when a fighter gets to, oh, swing one damned time if he moves 30 feet. Hate that. Oh, and the whole "casting earth shattering magic when three goons are trying to take your head off" concentration check bs.
Most of my issues with Pf are holdovers from my issues with 3x in general, actually.
+1
and I'm still not happy with the bard, the monk and the Barbarian.
Also some of the rules are sloppy written.
Keeping track of stacking modifiers. It's something I'd like to see addressed in a Pathfinder 2nd edition.
Also, characters don't get enough feats. There are so many neat feats I'd love to have, but I usually only have enough feat slots to cover the essentials. I'd love to be able to take stuff for flavor (like a lot of the racial feats, or skill feats).
While overall I give the system a big thumbs up over 3.5 I'd have to say the thing that bugs me the most is that casters are still objectively better than full BAB classes.
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It takes my moneys.
Yup.
Not having enough time to play/run all the campaign ideas in my head.
That's system-independent, I fear. :-)
OK, seriously.
AC and HP as catch-it-all values.
AC includes armors' physical resistance/soaking of hits, dodge skill and agility, shield blocks... way too much. I'd rather have a passive value just for armor (DR-style) and active modifiers for dodging, blocking and parrying.
HP value includes fatigue, physical damage, moral damage, pain threshold... way too much, again.
Unfortunately, I can't really make my mind on a solution that's as handy as just those two values to ease combat and gameplay.
Also, the aforementioned stacking modifiers. While it's relatively easy to get a hang keeping track of them, sometimes even the most experienced players slow down in the middle of a fight just to get things straight.
Maybe I'm alone in this, because I haven't heard anyone else complain about it, but I dislike PFRPG's heavy use of templates. It especially seems to make heavy use of the Young template, and that template just seems WRONG to me. A younger monster should have fewer hit dice, shouldn't it?
And of course, there's the removal of level adjustment. Sometimes, it seems like enough to make me want to go back to 3.X.
Most of my issues with Pf are holdovers from my issues with 3x in general, actually.
Yep.
So what holdovers from 3e do I dislike?
I dislike how mandatory magic items are, and how non-magic characters still need something "magical" to keep up. I dislike how "Oh a spell can do that" exists for everything. I dislike the continuing reign of caster domination due to how DCs vs saves scale as well as the "Oh a spell can do that." I dislike that casters have a thousand and one options and ways of being cool, while noncasters are still limited to "I move and hit it with my sword. I don't move and hit it with my sword twice!"
To sum it into something more bite size: I hate that it remains a magic game rather then a fantasy game.
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As the thread says what do you think are the bad elements of Pathfinder. Please keep the topic civil.
Recently I lost the use of my writing hand [right hand] via a glass door. It may take 2 years before I get full use of my hand. I can use my laptop, somewhat slowly with my left hand, and I'm in need of a PDF that I can fill-in via my computer. I don't have the ability to create the PDF as I don't have the access password. I can't believe that it would take that much time to create the three files I need ['Front' & 'Back' Character Creation page, and the 'Chronicle Page'. If anybody has something I can place on my laptop that would surfice, as the same, I'd really appreciate you downloading it to david.j.jacoby@hotmail.com. As of now I'm desperate. The group I'm with starts playing on Monday the 15th at 4:00 P.M. I've been elected as the scribe for the group, keeping all important information on my laptop. I'm desperate.
- That the designers didn't fix the christmas tree effect.
- That there are still save-or-die spells ( Baleful Polymorph and the like do count in that category ).
- That the normal crafting rules don't make sense.
- That the monk still is the "mystical shaolin martial artist with supernatural abilities" and that there is no generic martial artist class.
- That the monk still suffers from MAD and is still not particularly impressive in melee.
- Several minor rules clarification issues.
Otherwise, I am quite fine with the rules. For the most part, I think Pathfinder is a definite improvement from 3.5 and I love how the designers are involved in daily messageboard business.
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The worse thing about Pathfinder for me, is that it seems to have fractured the 3.x player base even more than 4e did. Finally I have admitted defeat, and for purposes of convention play I have decided - if you can't beat them join them.
As for specifics of the actual RPG...
Some Skills should have IMHO been consolidated further - Swim and Climb could have been merged with Jump to make Athletics leaving Acrobatics with Tumble and Balance. Some Knowledge skills could have been consolidated as well, e.g. Geography, History, Nobility, Local into World Lore or something. The introduction of the Fly skill is IMHO a step backwards.
Concentration being a new mechanic - its not a skill, its not a caster level check, it is something new.
Grapple Rules - The rules are just as complicated as in 3.5 overall (easier in some areas but more complex in others) with some vagueness. Also the rules are split acros several chapters in the book - Skills, Magic, Combat and Glossary. For a mechanic that got so much stick in 3.5 I would have expected Paizo to have really made this a lot simpler and crystal clear.
Attempts to maintain backwards compatibility lead to odd feats - Stealthy gives a bonus to Stealth and Escape Artist? Better to have just dropped the feat instead - it can simply be replaced with Skill Focus (Stealth) now.
Channelling - initially I thought this was a great idea having played a 3.5 cleric who had to use up his spells and actions in combat to heal others. But now I think it was the wrong solution - it makes Clerics even more necessary as a healing aid, and still leave the issue of having to spend actions in combat healing others, meaning although you aren't using up spells you still don't have the opportunity to cast them.
My experiences of playing in the same campaign having converted my 3.5 cleric to PF left me with the same frustrations; fighter charges into combat, gets smacked down hard - I have to spend my action healing to keep him on his feat, he then gets to spend another action attacking and then it was all over :(
It also introduced a new issue - the Hit Point yo-yo effect as I call it (something I also dislike in 4e) - PCs can go up and down in HP so quickly and regularly that it reduces the ability to have a gritty game IMHO. When we moved to a more investigative scenario with just 1 or 2 skirmishes a day, there was no reason not to spam my channellings to heal everyone up - I was a player and I didn't like it.
IMHO the solution should have been to give each character, regardless of class the ability to heal themselves in combat and after each encounter. Something like 4e's Second Wind mechanic. Also First Aid could have perhaps restored a number of HP equal to the character's level plus Con bonus.
Too many fiddly bits.
3.x suffered from this problem too, but PF introduced even more ...
- class-specific ability sub-systems
- monster-abilities and ways to circumvent them
- spells and conditions and counters to those
I hope the PF intro-set now under development will present a more streamlined game, by reducing the number of classes, capping power levels and reducing rules-bloat.
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I hear that Rolemaster came up with a way to add more realism to injured pcs....
3) HP = Healthbar
-I understand that it is an extraction to allow for a certain level of playability but it totally shatters any concept of realism. The fact that a nearly unconscious person can fight, cast spells, and run around just as well (and unhindered) as someone of comparable level who just stepped out of his morning shower, massage, and daily clerical restoration.
Yup, I am actually a longtime RM player (From 1987, when I ditched D&D until 1996 or so). My other game now is HARP, ICE's more playable and user-friendly game.
Basically, you suffer negs based on % of your HP left.For every 25% of damage you take, you are at a negative (Cumulative). RM is aD100 game, so divide negs by 5.
Example: Character has 44 HP
25% down (At 33) -10 to all activity (-2 in PF)
50% down (At 22) -25 to all activity (-5 in PF)
75% down (At 11) -50 to all activity (-10 in PF)
I am going from memory, since I don't have any of the books in front of me right at this moment.
-Uriel
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As the thread says what do you think are the bad elements of Pathfinder. Please keep the topic civil.Recently I lost the use of my writing hand [right hand] via a glass door. It may take 2 years before I get full use of my hand. I can use my laptop, somewhat slowly with my left hand, and I'm in need of a PDF that I can fill-in via my computer. I don't have the ability to create the PDF as I don't have the access password. I can't believe that it would take that much time to create the three files I need ['Front' & 'Back' Character Creation page, and the 'Chronicle Page'. If anybody has something I can place on my laptop that would surfice, as the same, I'd really appreciate you downloading it to david.j.jacoby@hotmail.com. As of now I'm desperate. The group I'm with starts playing on Monday the 15th at 4:00 P.M. I've been elected as the scribe for the group, keeping all important information on my laptop. I'm desperate.
Man, I am so sorry to hear about your injury. I am (Besides the DM) a writer.guitarist and bartender by trade, all very hand-dependent.
You have my condolences.-Uriel
1) Crafting system.
-This is a large remnant from 3.5. It technically works, but it is very ineloquent, bulky, and not very player friendly.
This. And this applies to not just normal crafting, but crafting magic items, as well.
And also applies to some of the other rules of the game as well. They are too vague and left open to interpretation. Whether it needs more rules or better written ones, they need clarification. See too many threads on the 'Rules' forum that are good FAQ candidates.
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+1 on the craft system complaint. In my game, I replaced the crafting rules with this. Making Craft Work
Also, while I like some of the combining of skills, and the elimination of the the double cost for non-class skill training, I would like to see more skill checks to make skills an alternative to feats for fleshing out a character.
Finally, I miss the concept (not the actual mechanics) of level adjustment for making more playable monster races.
- Some basic mechanic need clarification. See how many question vital strike rises
- Some change feel arbitrary (INA, no trip flying opponents)
- I like changes to concentration and several spells, but could have be done more
- I like how several feats and feature scale automatically (Power Attack, Strenght Surge). Great, but this should be extended as a default concept.
- yeah, I hoped for an improved craft rule
Overall, I love the game and is the best incarnation so far. This does not mean I'm blind to some worng thing.
I like changes to concentration and several spells, but could have be done more
Really? Personally, I miss being able to put ranks into Concentration.
The editing is not always that great.
Also, although I can't quite put my finger on what it is, we only played one game of 3.5 before pathfinder and in some, hard-to-articulate way I suspect ties in with the backwards compatibility, it sometimes feels that the rules are assuming some prior knowledge about 'how things used to be'. If this is not a figment of my imagination, it is probably a huge strength currently, but may become a hindrance as the number of 3.5 -> PF people diminishes.
This is a good point; the rules are built on the SRD which is missing some of the explicatory passages from the PHB/DMG.
It also introduced a new issue - the Hit Point yo-yo effect as I call it (something I also dislike in 4e) - PCs can go up and down in HP so quickly and regularly that it reduces the ability to have a gritty game IMHO. When we moved to a more investigative scenario with just 1 or 2 skirmishes a day, there was no reason not to spam my channellings to heal everyone up - I was a player and I didn't like it.
IMHO the solution should have been to give each character, regardless of class the ability to heal themselves in combat and after each encounter. Something like 4e's Second Wind mechanic. Also First Aid could have perhaps restored a number of HP equal to the character's level plus Con bonus.
I think one way to run a grittier game (albeit quite a change from 'default' pathfinder feel) is to remove or severely curtail access to healing whilst simultaneously reducing damage output by a long way. It means any single blow is unlikely to kill you, but as your hp dwindle with little prospect of regaining them quickly, it can create a somewhat desperate paranoia amongst players. Hardly something I'd houserule generally, but for a specific mood it might be worth a shot (imo the second wind and 'heal between encounters' features of 4th edition add to the yo-yo effect rather than reducing it).
I like changes to concentration and several spells, but could have be done moreReally? Personally, I miss being able to put ranks into Concentration.
Casting in combat was too easy in 3.5. This was partly to how easy is to exploit a skill.
In pathfinder is more difficult, but at high level is too easy in my opinion.
Magic should be powerful, but should have drawbacks. Being able to concentrate should be one of them.
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I think one way to run a grittier game (albeit quite a change from 'default' pathfinder feel) is to remove or severely curtail access to healing whilst simultaneously reducing damage output by a long way.
I think this could be done without house rules - just as you say limit access to stuff like Wands of CLW and write scenarios so that they don't have so many encounters of a certain level to mean PCs will be pummelled to an inch of their lives and beyond if it wasn't for magical healing.
(imo the second wind and 'heal between encounters' features of 4th edition add to the yo-yo effect rather than reducing it).
I like Second Wind - it doesn't total heal you but helps keep you on your feet for the battle if you have suffered significant damage or something. As for resting inbetween encounters - yes I agree because 4e allows unlimited use of healing surges, but a limited resting between encounters to heal could work for PF (such as first aid, or maybe "healing" hit points equal to Level per hour of rest (like non-lethal damage).