Thanks all :)
So this talk of wizards and monks came about because of party role. Lets just forget casters in this equation because that is a whole other reoccurring thread. As for party role, its a bit varied but here goes my take.
The monk is the best suited to being the world's best flank buddy, BUT, can also be built very defensively and hold a front line. somewhat. They won't be as good at damage or defending as the appropriately built fighter type, but they can step in for a round or two when needed, transversing the battlefield to step in front of the part wizard before the wizard get creamed by an ogre barbarian. They can offer what is devastating status condition at level 1. Stunning is brutal, and is only matched by staggered, and surpassed by paralyzed.
They are alternative fighters, that sit somewhere between fighters and rogues for damage. Monk doesn't get everything a fighter gets, otherwise he would be a fighter. He gets access to appropriate bonus feats at the same level as a fighter gets access to those same feats, even though the monk has a 3/4 BAB. Fighter gets more damage but is dependent on his gear (everyone is but the monk is less dependent in the "we wake up in the forest with none of our stuff" scenario). Monk is never without a weapon or armor, and can even get his ki points by no consecutive hours of meditation rather than 8 hours of rest. He is the boyscout of the classes, always prepared.
Monks make very good anti-casters. They have quite possibly the best anti-caster defenses in the game, including evasion and spell resistance, and have the best movement in the game to get over enemy lines. Once in a grapple, the caster has to make a concentration check to cast. Once pinned, he better have one without somatic components.
Monks make pretty excellent scouts when you don't have a rogue, and have good perception checks. In social situations their sense motive skill will most likely be high. They appear innocuous a can blend in with common folk without shedding gear. What's that? A weapon? No, good sir, its a farming implement.
One thing the monk is Not is straight forward. Its not a beginner class. Its a very fiddly class where you often have to make a lot careful choices about how to advance. Its an easy build to "screw up" as every feat or attribute point shifts the balance between offense and defense, which is the source of much monk hate.
Anburaid, I agree on your points but what you are describing is a character that, for many, only functions well in a group of 5-6 or more players to back up (support) other classes. And I am sure many folks will show options for other classes to do the things you listed (grace and kings castle spells for paladins come to mind) It seems like one of the questions that I have been able to sift out of 300+ posts is in a game with 3-4 players what is it about a monk that makes it a non-starter for many people?
Believe me I want to see the monk be much beloved and I want it to be taken seriously as an option for a party of any size.
Now there has been a lot of round and round about the movement puting the Monk too far into harms way(although there are cases where the movement will alow them to avoid threaten spaces to set up a flank without getting too far ahead of the party), So I am not sure that this feature alone is strong enough to make them a serious option (although a monk/ pally duo using king's castle and the monks movement plus acrobatics isnt a bad option it just comes in late in the game 14-15th level), so where else can they shine consistently through all 20 levels?
With the Bailor punch dummy at lvl 20 having a +29 Fort save even with a really high wisdom (31-32), and ability focus you are looking at around a 15-20% success rate (wiht a DC 32). Against a "good base fort save" character somewhere in the 20-22 range and thats with only a 20 Con so higher is certainly possible(Paladins will be higher)success will be significantly better 50-60% so its is a viable strategy to take out class based enemies,dependant on hitting the AC (which gets into the whole to hit plus save abilities issue) but that might be more difficult if only a single attack (3/4 BAB, perhaps dirty trick to set up would be a better opener then next round full atk stunning)
edited to add another thought.
Most of the spells you listed have a duration of 1 minute/level. If you extend that, that's 2 minutes/level. If you extend it three times (an extend rod only allows you to extend a spell three times/day), that's 6 minutes/level. Assuming you're 20th level, that spell lasts 2 hours. Assuming you're adventuring 8 hours a day, you have to cast that spell four times a day - assuming that none of them ever get dispelled, else you'll have to cast it more often.
The only way your build works is at 20th level. It takes up the lion's share of your spells. You're hoping you'll never get dispelled. You have to spend a truly ridiculous amount of gold on extend rods (you need about 28 different dispel rods - including greater dispel rods). You still don't have the feats/rages/etc. of the fighter/barbarian/etc. So, you still suck as a melee-er
I already noted in my last post that the ability enhancers were 1 min/level, and that was my mistake. The rest of the spells I mentioned (barring Transformation) are 10 min/level, which means they last up to 3:20 hours at higher levels. I could also just use the Extend Feat if not for the rods, but I like my rods 'cause they save me some spell slots (or I could just use some pearls or something), which brings the durations up to 6:40 hours. Or 7 hours with a +1 caster level ioun stone.
My younger brother's sorcerer pulled this stuff (he was 11 at the time), and honestly it's pretty effective against most enemies. Having upward to +21 strength from buffs doesn't hurt (my group armed themselves well), and being big on top of it adds a fair amount to his CMB/CMD. He's got a lot of natural attacks with solid strength modifiers, and he can still cast spells (which is why I actually don't recommend using Transformation).
He can be dispelled, but unless you're using Disjunction, then you have to attempt to dispel him, which means to have good odds you need to be about equal level, barring benefits like the +1 caster level ioun stone; and if they're dispelling you, great, they just said "you're not going to pretend to be a fighter, you're gonna be a spellcaster", at which point my little brother replied "I cast Time Stop" and proceeded to make them regret that they didn't let him have his fun being a dragon.
Now, let's stop arguing this, because I can go on all day. I've could have discussed how my little brother would sometimes mass-summon creatures if he needed meat-shields / flanking buddies, and I haven't discussed that he could fight an entire field of enemies while being completely immune to retaliation except by very specific enemies, or anything like that. I said that a wizard (or in this case sorcerer, since this was my lil' bro's character) can pretend to be the fighter; and by fighter I mean the role as a meatshield/meatgrinder if he wanted.
I believe I did say that it was suboptimal. A wizard or sorcerer will generally have something far more important and useful to do. The same spells could be cast on the fighter (or crafted into x/day items by the wizard or sorcerer for those personal spells) and be far, far more effective. I actually said it would be more effective on a Barbarian since Barbarian + Form of the Dragon = Awesome (they retain their damage reduction, movement speed, rage bonuses, rage powers, etc, where a fighter probably doesn't have Weapon Specialization-Bite).
Is that good enough for you?
Anburaid, I agree on your points but what you are describing is a character that, for many, only functions well in a group of 5-6 or more players to back up (support) other classes. And I am sure many folks will show options for other classes to do the things you listed (grace and kings castle spells for paladins come to mind) It seems like one of the questions that I have been able to sift out of 300+ posts is in a game with 3-4 players what is it about a monk that makes it a non-starter for many people?
Believe me I want to see the monk be much beloved and I want it to be taken seriously as an option for a party of any size.
Now there has been a lot of round and round about the movement puting the Monk too far into harms way(although there are cases where the movement will alow them to avoid threaten spaces to set up a flank without getting too far ahead of the party), So I am not sure that this feature alone is strong enough to make them a serious option (although a monk/ pally duo using king's castle and the monks movement plus acrobatics isnt a bad option it just comes in late in the game 14-15th level), so where else can they shine consistently through all 20 levels?
With the Bailor punch dummy at lvl 20 having a +29 Fort save even with a really high wisdom (31-32), and ability focus you are looking at around a 15-20% success rate (wiht a DC 32). Against a "good base fort save" character somewhere in the 20-22 range and thats with only a 20 Con so higher is certainly possible(Paladins will be higher)success will be significantly better 50-60% so its is a viable strategy to take out class based enemies,dependant on hitting the AC (which gets into the whole to hit plus save abilities issue) but that might be more difficult if only a single attack (3/4 BAB, perhaps dirty trick to set up would be a better opener then next round full atk stunning)
edited to add another thought.
Balor may be a common example of an end game challenge, but its a bit of an inflated challenge against any class throwing a fort save ability. The monster creation rules place the average CR20 monster's good save at 22. That places the monk as you say at about 50% for stunning fist, IF he is kitted out to make the most of it. A 32 wisdom is probably a bit high. The good news is that a monk can use SF without changing his attack routine. Its totally a bonus ability.
I am not saying the monk is well off at all levels. But he's in no more trouble than a fighter or rogue at any given level. He has some strengths against certain types of foes. In a lot of ways, the monk is sort of in between the rogue and fighter, role-wise. Sort of a hybrid, if anything.
Edit - one thing this points out to me is that perhaps there needs to be a feat or too to make add to the DC of stunning fist at higher levels. Getting a wisdom of 32 takes all your attribute points, a +6 headband, and +5 inherent bonus from books/wishes, which is a tall order for any class.
OK, I got your point in your previous post. Now what about my other questions?
Edit: What do you see as being the monk's usual attack routine? Just to clarify so I can follow your line of reasoning.
OK, I got your point in your previous post. Now what about my other questions?
What does a monk bring to the party? Damage, and some eclectic skills. People decry the damage, but the DPR olymics show the monk between the rogue and fighter. What does a multiclass fighter-rogue bring to the party? Good damage, and some decent out combat skills. Looking at other melee classes, each has its own style of combat, and the monks has his, flurry, which has its advantages and its disadvantages. What does a ranger (the other common TWF) bring to the party?
As for why the hate? the workings of the class are opaque compared to a fighter or rogue. Also the game favors specializers and monks do not specialize easily, thus angering optimizers. His fighter type feats have to be bought as bonus feats because of his BAB. He gets larger damage dice as he levels that statistically are no better than the odd +1 or +2 bonus as he levels. In this way he can be seen to promise more than he mechanically delivers.
edit - BUT if you don't know those things you might play a monk anyway ;) Once you get to learn how the aspects of the class interact, you can make some pretty cool characters, such as Lilith's Thrall's combat maneuver monkey. Or JameBlonde's Treantmonk style damage machine.
Also, to some degree its up to the player to make this class work. It can take some out of the box thinking, and that is what attracts some people to the class. If you are tired of playing a straight fighter, but hate spellcasters, monk is probably for you.
The sad reality is that as much as you can get into the "Monk vs Wizard" high-level pissing contest, it's not relevant, it's party vs monsters at low-to-mid levels, and traditionally, from my gaming experiences, monks simply suck here.
I think we all can agree combat manuversnare very difficult to pull off vs BBEGs, so all monk (and fighter) builds built on these without getting them for free have generally just wasted a lot of actions. If you disagree I'd be interested to be proven wrong, but even at low-to-mids NPCs are often very strong. At mids you start to get into casters who are also unnaturally strong (demons/devils).
At these levels where +5 whatever don't grow on trees, Monks have difficulty with AC. Given the potion of shield is imaginary, and simply "defending yourself" isn't helping the party, we'll say by 3rd a monk can have an AC of, say, 17-18 (+1 amulet/ring, pair of 16s in Dex/wis, being very generous). Their damage will be similarly mediocre (not comparable with any real weapon users till about 11th level), and their tricks will be far.
As a traditional buffer, I often feel compelled to overbite the monk just so he doesn't feel worthless; eatin up slots with mage armor and the like.
Now, I haven't seen a ton post-APG, i'm convinced it helped them get past the DR issue, but I still don't see these "get the Mage in the middle" battles occurring as often as you see (apparently?). Usually if the monk were to run into the middle in a large scale combat lots of people could converge on him; most monks aren't that stupid.
So where does that leave us? A roleless class which we all love but which looks much better in concept than in practice... I compare them to the much beloved but never really working Eldrich Knight. They can do OK, but in or out of combat they have many superior options.
I went ahead and wrote up Facepalm at 3rd level
Human Monk 3
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init: +6
Senses: Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC: 16 (10 base, +1 armor, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 Dodge)
Touch: 15
Flat-footed: 13
HP: 27 (3d8+9)
Fort: +5 (3 base, +2 Con)
Ref: +5 (3 base, +2 Dex)
Will: +5 (3 base, +2 Wis) (+2 vs. Enchantment)
Defensive Abilities: Evasion
OFFENSE
Speed: 40 ft.
Melee: +6 Unarmed Strike (1d6+3/20x2)
OR +5/+5 Flurry Unarmed Strike (1d6+3/20x2)
OR +5/+5 Masterwork Kama (1d6+3/20x2)
Ranged: +3/+3 Shuriken (1d2+3/20x2)
Offensive Abilities: Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist (3/day, DC 14)
STATISTICS
Str: 17 +3 (15 base, +2 racial)
Dex: 14 +2 (14 base)
Con: 14 +2 (14 base)
Int: 10 +0 (10 base)
Wis: 14 +2 (14 base)
Cha: 8 -1 (8 base)
BAB: +2; CMB: +6; CMD: 19 (+2 to grapple)
Feats: Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lunge, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills: Acrobatics +8, Knowledge (religion) +3, Perception +8, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +8, Swim +9
Languages: Common
SQ: AC Bonus, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, Maneuver Training, Still Mind
Equipment
Bracers of Armor +1 (1,000)
Masterwork Kama (302)
Shuriken (50) 10
1,312
3,000gp
I think his 12th level build was pretty good. Certainly no one pointed out any flaws with him. At third level he compares the the two-weapon Ranger or Rogue.
Edit: Oh, and at 3rd level he has 7 feats.
OK, I got your point in your previous post. Now what about my other questions?
What does a monk bring to the party? Damage, and some eclectic skills. People decry the damage, but the DPR olymics show the monk between the rogue and fighter. What does a multiclass fighter-rogue bring to the party? Good damage, and some decent out combat skills. Looking at other melee classes, each has its own style of combat, and the monks has his, flurry, which has its advantages and its disadvantages. What does a ranger (the other common TWF) bring to the party?
As for why the hate? the workings of the class are opaque compared to a fighter or rogue. Also the game favors specializers and monks do not specialize easily, thus angering optimizers. His fighter type feats have to be bought as bonus feats because of his BAB. He gets larger damage dice as he levels that statistically are no better than the odd +1 or +2 bonus as he levels. In this way he can be seen to promise more than he mechanically delivers.
edit - BUT if you don't know those things you might play a monk anyway ;) Once you get to learn how the aspects of the class interact, you can make some pretty cool characters, such as Lilith's Thrall's combat maneuver monkey. Or JameBlonde's Treantmonk style damage machine.
Also, to some degree its up to the player to make this class work. It can take some out of the box thinking, and that is what attracts some people to the class. If you are tired of playing a straight fighter, but hate spellcasters, monk is probably for you.
I like the comments in the edit particularly. As I keep saying I have love for the class but want to find ways to help others find that love.
You mentioned the obfusaction of the class workings which I think is a strong point that should be addressed. So what can we as the community, in collaboration (hopefully) with the developers, do to create more transparency.
Facepalm
its just me but I would swap in toughness, and make sure you spend your favored class on hp. His AC is somewhat low, but with a mage armor he's not doing too bad. Next level he starts to shine a bit more with Ki points. With a moderate wisdom and dex his defenses will be a tad low which is why you need the HP. Otherwise looking pretty good.
its just me but I would swap in toughness, and make sure you spend your favored class on hp. His AC is somewhat low, but with a mage armor he's not doing too bad. Next level he starts to shine a bit more with Ki points. With a moderate wisdom and dex his defenses will be a tad low which is why you need the HP. Otherwise looking pretty good.
Facepalm
Actually I missed a feat on his 12th level build, so I can add Toughness without having to drop anything else, which gives him 123hp at level 12. Certainly Improved Initiative and Lunge can be moved around to allow for Toughness earlier.
I also made some mistakes on his skills in the 3rd level build. He should have Knowledge: Religion +4 and Swim +8, instead of +3 and +9.
You mentioned the obfusaction of the class workings which I think is a strong point that should be addressed. So what can we as the community, in collaboration (hopefully) with the developers, do to create more transparency.I think one element is that is problematic is that most conversations about class comparisons seem to always gravitate towards the mid to upper levels. Very little examination occurs in the low levels, which in my experience, is the vast majority of play.
I'm not sure how most people start campaigns, or how long they stick with one particular campaign, but most play I've seen for decades has started at level 1. Very few games start at higher level, and consequently, most games never make it to the upper levels due to the vicissitudes of running a campaign.
The assumption for the "Christmas Tree" effect with characters covered in all sorts of magic items rarely materializes, so even all of the talk about this or that piece of equipment solving problems with a class don't seem very meaningful in my game experience.
What I think would be a big help is to get some highly detailed breakdowns of Monk builds for levels 1-12 that would be legal for Pathfinder Society. That is where I've encountered most of my new players, and there is always someone fresh to the game that decides the Monk is really cool, but then finds their character dead or unconscious far too often to really be fun.
And the key thing is that you can't go from the perspective of "lets look at the class at 6th level when you finally can do this or that" but instead break it down so that from level 1 onward there is good advice on how to optimally use the class. It shouldn't be advice that you have to wait several levels before you can finally feel like you're effective, but rather, "how can you be awesome right now, at first level and never stop being awesome."
I'm not really sure that is possible to do that with the Monk, because it is a class that has to be finessed with more...
I second that idea. Most games I have played/Gm'ed have started between 1-3 and our group speaks often of the "sweet spot" in the level progression (6-10) where each class has enough of its WAAHHH but no class or type of classes are overshadowed by another category of classes. somewehre in this range is where we usually end a campaign.
edited for clarity.
Noone has yet shown how the fighter, unless he spends a substantial amount of gold (and not even then in some cases), can match the monk's mobility.
No one has yet shown how the monk's so-called "mobility" actually matters.
Assuming you're adventuring 8 hours a day,
Hate to break it for you, but real-life parties adventure exactly as long as their buffs last. Particularly at levels where they can teleport and planeshift. But in official APs teleports and whatever generally aren't even required to rest as much as you want. Duration in tens of minutes is more than enough to find and beat up the standard number of encounters per day, and then some, assuming the party isn't being stupid.
You still don't have the feats/rages/etc. of the fighter/barbarian/etc. So, you still suck as a melee-er
Rages are not even worth remembering. Feats are not nearly as important as sheer stats in PF. Defense of a meleeing caster is lightyears beyond that of a melee class.
Rages are not even worth remembering. Feats are not nearly as important as sheer stats in PF. Defense of a meleeing caster is lightyears beyond that of a melee class.
Well, to be fair, the Barbarian's Rage does grant +2 hit/+3 damage, and later +4 hit/+6 damage which is pretty nice; and if you can figure out a way to avoid getting fatigued (fatigue immunity somehow, Warforged are good for this if you're playing an Eberron game) then "stance-dancing" in and out of rages each round can give some fun (but not broken) options.
But yeah, I agree with you. I still maintain that it's even more effective cast on a warrior type. But check this out!
So I was thinking, if you cast all those buffs on the MONK, then the monk would suddenly be amazingly godly, since the monk would still retain all of his class features while also being a huge dragon with some +10 strength, +8 constitution, and +8 natural armor bonus (on top of magic items), and you'd have a ton of attacks counting your unarmed strikes and your natural weapons (though sadly you can't flurry them), but just being huge would really drive up your unarmed strike damage.
That'd be what, 2d10 upgraded 2 times, or 4d8 unarmed strikes made as part of your super-dragon flurry? ^_^
|
I'll jump in here.You will win initiative (you have +16). Not sure what you'll cast, but with all high saves and a cloak, I'll have a better than 50/50 chance of avoiding at least full damage from it. And you picked the level where I get Spell Resistance 23.
When it is my turn I will abundant step and stun you the next round. Save will be 10 + 6 (1/2 Class) + Probably 5 or 6 wisdom at that level, particularly with a 20 point buy...
Meaning you'll have a less than 50/50 chance of not being stunned.
There are cat and mouse things you can do of course, and the dice roll as they will, but if I see you I will be able to get to you in that round and have a better than 50/50 chance of stunning you, which takes you out of action for a round, then going from there.
In real game, I wouldn't be trying to solo. I would be stunning you to set up/protect team mates.
What are you talking about? Are you saying that you would win against a party mage in PVP? Umm...ok. Not sure what you are trying to prove, unless you are in a campaign where you have to kill your fellow team mates.
The point is that the mage contributes more, and most importantly, disables -far- and above what the monk could achieve, which was previously his most touted ability. Moreover he is much more useful to the party overall. So, if your looking to disable your foes, pick a caster. If your looking to break faces, pick any other melee class. Why pick a monk? Cause you want the flavour, but that doesn't mean people aren't right to dislike it.On your tactics, not that it matters since PVP is a silly comparison, but no mage would cast a spell requiring a save on a monk, unless it was an incredibly enhanced DC. So think Invisibility followed by flight and summons, etc. So you can just say- Wizard wins initiative, and the fight.
Not really (summons only last so long, and I don't need to engage them...) but as you say PvP isn't play.
The Mage is a mage. It does mage things, until it runs out of spells. Comparing the two is like saying Bacon can't be a doughnut. Both will kill you, but each in it's own way.
Monks can break faces, and run around them, and teleport, and soak spells, and...
|
|
Actually it depends on who you are facing. I would send someone to tango with the monk while I nuked the archers if I as the DM had the correct creatures. Going behind enemy lines alone is often a bad idea by the way.
It can be a bad idea, but it can also be a great idea. Which is why the Monk isn't a beginner class. Also, it's hard send someone to tango with a monk because of the monks mobility. The monk can pick who it fights more than other classes.
|
|
So this talk of wizards and monks came about because of party role. Lets just forget casters in this equation because that is a whole other reoccurring thread. As for party role, its a bit varied but here goes my take.
The monk is the best suited to being the world's best flank buddy, BUT, can also be built very defensively and hold a front line. somewhat. They won't be as good at damage or defending as the appropriately built fighter type, but they can step in for a round or two when needed, transversing the battlefield to step in front of the part wizard before the wizard get creamed by an ogre barbarian. They can offer what is devastating status condition at level 1. Stunning is brutal, and is only matched by staggered, and surpassed by paralyzed.
They are alternative fighters, that sit somewhere between fighters and rogues for damage. Monk doesn't get everything a fighter gets, otherwise he would be a fighter. He gets access to appropriate bonus feats at the same level as a fighter gets access to those same feats, even though the monk has a 3/4 BAB. Fighter gets more damage but is dependent on his gear (everyone is but the monk is less dependent in the "we wake up in the forest with none of our stuff" scenario). Monk is never without a weapon or armor, and can even get his ki points by no consecutive hours of meditation rather than 8 hours of rest. He is the boyscout of the classes, always prepared.
Monks make very good anti-casters. They have quite possibly the best anti-caster defenses in the game, including evasion and spell resistance, and have the best movement in the game to get over enemy lines. Once in a grapple, the caster has to make a concentration check to cast. Once pinned, he better have one without somatic components.
Monks make pretty excellent scouts when you don't have a rogue, and have good perception checks. In social situations their sense motive skill will most likely be high. They appear innocuous a can blend in with common folk without shedding...
+1
It can be a bad idea, but it can also be a great idea. Which is why the Monk isn't a beginner class. Also, it's hard send someone to tango with a monk because of the monks mobility. The monk can pick who it fights more than other classes.
Actually it depends on who you are facing. I would send someone to tango with the monk while I nuked the archers if I as the DM had the correct creatures. Going behind enemy lines alone is often a bad idea by the way.
More thank likely it is a bad idea. You have to have an open path to have somewhere to go. I know you can tumble through enemy squares but the DC could be really high depending on the situation, and if you have a strength instead of dex based monk the check will be even harder. You can't just make blanket statements. That is like me assuming the wizard(fill in other victim) will have the right spell/feat/etc to avoid the situation.
The monk can pick who it fights more at lower levels. At higher levels mobility is no longer something the monk has a patent on.|
|
And the key thing is that you can't go from the perspective of "lets look at the class at 6th level when you finally can do this or that" but instead break it down so that from level 1 onward there is good advice on how to optimally use the class. It shouldn't be advice that you have to wait several levels before you can finally feel like you're effective, but rather, "how can you be awesome right now, at first level and never stop being awesome."I'm not really sure that is possible to do that with the Monk, because it is a class that has to be finessed with more...
The monk gets a bonus feat at first and 2nd level, plus evasion, flurry of blows, and stunning fist.
I would call that pretty effective at low levels, as the 3rd level build above showed.
|
|
It can be a bad idea, but it can also be a great idea. Which is why the Monk isn't a beginner class. Also, it's hard send someone to tango with a monk because of the monks mobility. The monk can pick who it fights more than other classes.
Actually it depends on who you are facing. I would send someone to tango with the monk while I nuked the archers if I as the DM had the correct creatures. Going behind enemy lines alone is often a bad idea by the way.
More thank likely it is a bad idea. You have to have an open path to have somewhere to go. I know you can tumble through enemy squares but the DC could be really high depending on the situation, and if you have a strength instead of dex based monk the check will be even harder. You can't just make blanket statements. That is like me assuming the wizard(fill in other victim) will have the right spell/feat/etc to avoid the situation.
The monk can pick who it fights more at lower levels. At higher levels mobility is no longer something the monk has a patent on.
At high level, I have two words. Abundant Step.
Got me out of lots of trouble even back in 3.5 when I only had it once a day, but found myself in over my head. Not a perfect solution, but combined with mobility you can generally find a way to get away.
The monk is a fun, flavorful class. He isn't the primary melee fighter. He fulfills a number of roles.
My one wish with him is that they'd not done the unusual BAB/CMB calculation thing. It feels clunky, and also odd that the squishy guy gets such a great bonus for attempting to sit in one place and tank.
The barbarian is an exception to the BAB/HD. The monk could have been as well.
It can be a bad idea, but it can also be a great idea. Which is why the Monk isn't a beginner class. Also, it's hard send someone to tango with a monk because of the monks mobility. The monk can pick who it fights more than other classes.
Actually it depends on who you are facing. I would send someone to tango with the monk while I nuked the archers if I as the DM had the correct creatures. Going behind enemy lines alone is often a bad idea by the way.
More thank likely it is a bad idea. You have to have an open path to have somewhere to go. I know you can tumble through enemy squares but the DC could be really high depending on the situation, and if you have a strength instead of dex based monk the check will be even harder. You can't just make blanket statements. That is like me assuming the wizard(fill in other victim) will have the right spell/feat/etc to avoid the situation.
The monk can pick who it fights more at lower levels. At higher levels mobility is no longer something the monk has a patent on.At high level, I have two words. Abundant Step.
Got me out of lots of trouble even back in 3.5 when I only had it once a day, but found myself in over my head. Not a perfect solution, but combined with mobility you can generally find a way to get away.
So you are going to run in, and then teleport out? That seems like a waste of actions to me. If you are facing a smaller number of monsters you may not get surrounded, but that also normally means each monster is stronger individually. Of course these are generalizations, and I am not saying the idea will never work, but I don't see it being successful enough to recommend as an ongoing strategy.
Run in slap the second rank? Drop a smoke stick while your there and use that blindfight feat. Yay grapple.
|
|
So you are going to run in, and then teleport out? That seems like a waste of actions to me. If you are facing a smaller number of monsters you may not get surrounded, but that also normally means each monster is stronger individually. Of course these are generalizations, and I am not saying the idea will never work, but I don't see it being successful enough to recommend as an ongoing strategy.
Getting to the back is the strategy. Abundant step is fall back ejector button if the strategy fails and your crashing. High Movement is the first ejector seat.
Like I said before, the idea is to mess up the enemies plan by forcing them to come back to the monk, or leave the back to fend for itself.
Normally you don't want to be isolated because you can't get back to the healer, or they can't get to you. Not so much of a problem for the monk.
Most people have views coloured by their own experiences and i'm guessing a lot of the monk hate stems from some bad gaming experiences. I think Barbarian is one of the strongest classes and Cleric is middle of the road, but that comes from how i have seen them perform. I was in a game that a player quit partly because his wizard wasn't performing as well as the rest of the party. My opinions go against some commonly held ones often extolled on these forums but that doesn't mean they are invalid.
Most games I play tend to have few or no house rules, run 3-7 encounters per day, don't allow for much downtime, and have lower than average WBL. we stick mostly to core but allow the APG depending on who's running the game.
I don't have much experience with monks so I don't really have an opinion on how strong or weak the class is. A lot of people seem to feel it's an under performer but some people feel strongly otherwise, probably because monks get to shine in their games.
You mentioned the obfuscation of the class workings which I think is a strong point that should be addressed. So what can we as the community, in collaboration (hopefully) with the developers, do to create more transparency.
I appreciate the enthusiasm :D As a community we can stop repeating half truths about monk damage that were bandied about a whole edition ago. The math was done, the PF monk's damage is decent when built with strength as a primary stat. We can also stop comparing the monk to caster classes who have powerful but limited resources. That just exacerbates things.
Treantmonk dropped us his guide and I think that helped make the mechanics more transparent. In general, when people say "what should i do to make a monk?" I point them there. I let them know that strength and HP are important if you want to be in the thick of melee, no matter what class you play. If you are a GM, and have a monk player, try to help them manage their expectations of what they want to be able to do. If your monk player is frustrated, allow them to swap feats, making adjustments, offer house rules, etc. The point of the game is to have fun, not to stick to RAW no matter what,
On the designer side, we need some feats to help monks who want to specialize in specific tactics. Archetypes have helped this a great deal, and help diversify the "shaolin monk" fluff that the vanilla monk is steeped in. A healing hand monk for example is a variant of monk that aims to combat the selfish buff aspects of the monk. The monk of the sacred mountain is an attempt at a frontline defender. These are cool and evocative ways for monks to branch out. I would love to see a monk archetype that replaces stunning fist for a leg up on combat maneuvers, perhaps eventually learning advanced versions that can be used against multiple people at once.
So you are going to run in, and then teleport out? That seems like a waste of actions to me. If you are facing a smaller number of monsters you may not get surrounded, but that also normally means each monster is stronger individually. Of course these are generalizations, and I am not saying the idea will never work, but I don't see it being successful enough to recommend as an ongoing strategy.
Getting to the back is the strategy. Abundant step is fall back ejector button if the strategy fails and your crashing.
So what does the monk do before level 12?
The monk is a fun, flavorful class. He isn't the primary melee fighter. He fulfills a number of roles.
Can anyone say, finally, what those roles are supposed to be? Trying to stun opponents does not make him anything other than a melee fighter, because he still does it through melee fighting. Besides, he's not really effective at that, because he targets the most common strong save, has two failure points in the stunning routine (to-hit roll against normal AC and save), and has too limited number of uses per day. Grappling is only at all useable against a limited subset of opponents, that becomes incredibly limited at mid and high levels, as most monsters grow way better in combat maneuvers than the monk, and spellcasters get various protections. And running around is not a role by itself, even if the monk is somewhat hard to hit in the process.
Lets look at Facepalm, the example 12-th level monk in this thread, who was doing less than 30 average damage after movement. The cloud giant with its 168 hp is not impressed, particularly as he saves against the stunning fist on four, and gets to full attack first (as well as an AoO on the way).
If we look at other monsters of CR 11? The cloud giant is about the best possible matchup for the example monk at that CR, save maybe for the stone golem, with its gimped stats. Elder elementals shut the monk down with DR and immunity to stun. Hezrou has the same AC and fort as the cloud giant, but better Fort and attacks, and also DR which the example monk cannot penetrate. The barbed devil actually saves against stun on 6, so is somewhat vulnerable (despite also sitting behing an unpenetrated DR). But he is a half-caster, who can confuse the monk with major images, and spam ranged attacks. And the monk cannot even hit him with the primary weapon, without injuring yourself. The cauchemar can just float beyond the monk's reach and dance on his head (the monk can try jumping to him, but that's exchanging single attacks for full attacks). And against the retriever the example monk has any chances only if the latter cannot hang on a ceiling and use its superior reach to again force the exchange of single attacks for full attacks. Even on even ground, the odds are not that good, because the retriever also can't be stunned or anything, and its fast healing gives it somewhat of an edge if the monk tries to turtle, and raise AC to the max (so that the retriever hits him only on 17, instead of on 9). Finally, dragons, those just can strafe the monk to death. Will take some time, but it is not like he can do anything serious in return.
The monk is a fun, flavorful class. He isn't the primary melee fighter. He fulfills a number of roles.Can anyone say, finally, what those roles are supposed to be? Trying to stun opponents does not make him anything other than a melee fighter, because he still does it through melee fighting. Besides, he's not really effective at that, because he targets the most common strong save, has two failure points in the stunning routine (to-hit roll against normal AC and save), and has too limited number of uses per day. Grappling is only at all useable against a limited subset of opponents, that becomes incredibly limited at mid and high levels, as most monsters grow way better in combat maneuvers than the monk, and spellcasters get various protections. And running around is not a role by itself, even if the monk is somewhat hard to hit in the process.
The Monk is a skirmisher, like the Rogue, but he is better able to get into battle without being killed. Grapple is more useful at low levels, but never becomes useless because class based NPC opponents are the most common enemy in the game. At higher levels his damage and AC increase to the point where he can just do pure damage. Not at the same level as the Fighter, but he can manuever to where ever the damage will be most effective.
Lets look at Facepalm, the example 12-th level monk in this thread, who was doing less than 30 average damage after movement. The cloud giant with its 168 hp is not impressed, particularly as he saves against the stunning fist on four, and gets to full attack first (as well as an AoO on the way).
First, Facepalm probably beats his Init of +1 and the giant won't get a AoO. If it is a surprise round Facepalm will partial charge 70' and attack, then get a full attack before the giant even gets to go. Second, I missed a feat on Facepalm. I was thinking Toughness, but now I see that Power Attack really would be better. So a charging, Power Attack, Vital Strike would hit on a 9 or better and do 4d8+13+1d6 damage, or 34.5 avg. damage. He wouldn't bother with a Stunning Fist on the surprise round. Then a full attack with a Ki point spent is +15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5, each hit will do 2d8+13+1d6 or 25.5 damage. So if 3 hit that is 76.5 more damage for a total of 111 damage, plus a Stunning Fist. The giant has a Fort save of +16 so will fail vs. the Stunning Fist only 15% of the time.
Assuming the giant isn't stunned he gets a full attack at +22/+17/+12 vs. Facepalm's 29AC. His chances to hit are 70%/45%/20% for 4d6+18 each. Let's say that two hit for 64 damage.
The next round Facepalm takes out the giant, and this assumes that nobody else in the party did anything. If Facepalm rolled bad or the giant rolled well he can either withdraw/tumble away, or he can hit the giant one more time and then Abundant Step away as a move action. How well would a Rogue do in a similar situation?
If we look at other monsters of CR 11? The cloud giant is about the best possible matchup for the example monk at that CR, save maybe for the stone golem, with its gimped stats.
Yeah, the Monk will eat up the stone golem.
Elder elementals shut the monk down with DR and immunity to stun.
Facepalm would get damage through on every attack that hits, but any two-weapon fighter is going to have trouble with the elemental.
Hezrou has the same AC and fort as the cloud giant, but better Fort and attacks, and also DR which the example monk cannot penetrate.
Again, Facepalm can get damage through on every attack that hits. It's attacks are not better. +17 to hit vs 29 to 36AC is not very good. The grab of +23 is pretty worthless against Facepalms 42 CMD and Faceplam can make the save vs. his spells in his sleep.
The barbed devil actually saves against stun on 6, so is somewhat vulnerable (despite also sitting behing an unpenetrated DR). But he is a half-caster, who can confuse the monk with major images, and spam ranged attacks. And the monk cannot even hit him with the primary weapon, without injuring yourself.
Again, DR is not a problem and Facepalm has an even better chance to get a stun to stick. With Lunge Facepalm has a reach attack, so no problem there. Major Image has a save DC of 17 vs. Facepalm's +15 Will save. Shuriken's can get rid of them quicker than the devil can create them, the devil would be wasting his time. The devil's Scorching Rays with +18 to hit would be vs. Facepalm's touch AC of 26 or 30. What's the Fighter's touch AC again?
The cauchemar can just float beyond the monk's reach and dance on his head (the monk can try jumping to him, but that's exchanging single attacks for full...
Float above me and do what? It doesn't have any ranged attacks. Plus, Facepalm could drink a potion of fly or throw shurikens. I didn't really give him any consumables.
All of the above assumes that Facepalm is by himself and doesn't have a party to help him out. In each case he can do something useful, even if he might not be able to take out the monster completely by himself.
The Monk is a skirmisher, like the Rogue,
Whut? The rogue is a damage dealer. "Skirmisher" is not a viable RPG role anyway. Who wants to be cheap and expendable?
Grapple is more useful at low levels, but never becomes useless because class based NPC opponents are the most common enemy in the game.
Not only this is not true, the great majority of classed NPC enemies even in the official APs eventually become spellcasters. Therefore they stop caring.
First, Facepalm probably beats his Init of +1 and the giant won't get a AoO. If it is a surprise round
Not very likely, as the giant's Perception is slightly better that his Stealth and the giant also has scent, so in average dungeon environments surprise is not even a possibility. The giant must be in open terrain, that allows charges, and has concealment for hiding, and be within an one-on-one encounter, not party-on-party (as group encounters mean that Stealth generally just fails) for the combat to start as you want. And if the giant has any warning he can just levitate himself, to mimimize the risk of surprise pile of damage.
And as the rest of your combat scenario assumes a surprise round, going as you've described, it is, therefore, worthless.
Facepalm will partial charge 70' and attack, then get a full attack before the giant even gets to go. Second, I missed a feat on Facepalm. I was thinking Toughness, but now I see that Power Attack really would be better.
Stop rewriting your character to meet the challenges. Or should I assign more appropriate feats to monsters?
The next round Facepalm takes out the giant, and this assumes that nobody else in the party did anything.
Of course this assumes that nobody else in the party did anything! Not only Facepalm is supposed to be an equal to the cloud giant, he is supposed to be an equal to the cloud giant without any help from anyone! With support from the party, he no longer benefits from CR counting as one lower than his level, and should be able to take on purple worms, liches and sea serpents as an equal.
Facepalm would get damage through on every attack that hits, but any two-weapon fighter is going to have trouble with the elemental.
No one cares about "getting damage through", if you don't get through nearly enough damage to actually have a chance of winning. "But that gimped build will have problems too" is not a proof that your build is not gimped.
Again, Facepalm can get damage through on every attack that hits.
And again on one cares.
It's attacks are not better. +17 to hit vs 29 to 36AC is not very good.
Facepalm's AC is only 36 if his attack routine is greatly reduced. So yes, hezrou's attacks are WAY better than his (although I referred to his attacks being better than the cloud giant's). Hezrou dishes out better DPS infinitely (after the adjustment for DR), than Facepalm does by spepnding ki. And had more HPs.
The grab of +23 is pretty worthless against Facepalms 42 CMD and Faceplam can make the save vs. his spells in his sleep.
The grab is worthless, but the demon does not need it to beat down the monk. About saves no one cares, they are not worth using, except when closing, or if there is a chance to hit a whole lot of people with Blasphemy, anyway.
Again, DR is not a problem
Again, it is, and stop pretending otherwise. Is the idea that you must reduce the opponent's hitpoints as fast as he reduces yours (faster if it has more HPs, as nearly all monsters do) to have a 50% chance to win so hard to grasp?
and Facepalm has an even better chance to get a stun to stick.
Which still is only 25%.
With Lunge Facepalm has a reach attack, so no problem there.
How is this supposed to help? You're still doing unarmed attacks, and you're still impaling your fists in the process.
Major Image has a save DC of 17 vs. Facepalm's +15 Will save.
You need to interact with it first. And as the devil has it at will, so expect his whole lair to be covered with layers of precast illusions.
Float above me and do what?
And beat you to death at his leisure.
It doesn't have any ranged attacks.
But it does have reach... Actually, forgot about Lunge. Then it is a roughly equal fight.
Plus, Facepalm could drink a potion of fly or throw shurikens.
Throwing shurikens will not get him anywhere. And stop rewriting the character retroactively.
All of the above assumes that Facepalm is by himself and doesn't have a party to help him out.
Duh. See above.
In each case he can do something useful, even if he might not be able to take out the monster completely by himself.
To be appropriate for his level, he must be able to take out 50% of these monsters, chosen randomly, completely by himself. He wins against one (golem), and wins at best 50-75% of the time against two (giant and cauchemare). 11 other monsters overpower him greatly.
|
|
So what does the monk do before level 12?
So you are going to run in, and then teleport out? That seems like a waste of actions to me. If you are facing a smaller number of monsters you may not get surrounded, but that also normally means each monster is stronger individually. Of course these are generalizations, and I am not saying the idea will never work, but I don't see it being successful enough to recommend as an ongoing strategy.
Getting to the back is the strategy. Abundant step is fall back ejector button if the strategy fails and your crashing.
Like I said, it is the "Fall back" ejector seat if his mobility advantage doesn't work.
Before level 12 his feat advantage (over everyone but fighter) combined with movement, high saves, immunities, lack of armor check penalties, and jump advantages generally do it.
You mentioned the obfuscation of the class workings which I think is a strong point that should be addressed. So what can we as the community, in collaboration (hopefully) with the developers, do to create more transparency.
I appreciate the enthusiasm :D As a community we can stop repeating half truths about monk damage that were bandied about a whole edition ago. The math was done, the PF monk's damage is decent when built with strength as a primary stat. We can also stop comparing the monk to caster classes who have powerful but limited resources. That just exacerbates things.
Treantmonk dropped us his guide and I think that helped make the mechanics more transparent. In general, when people say "what should i do to make a monk?" I point them there. I let them know that strength and HP are important if you want to be in the thick of melee, no matter what class you play. If you are a GM, and have a monk player, try to help them manage their expectations of what they want to be able to do. If your monk player is frustrated, allow them to swap feats, making adjustments, offer house rules, etc. The point of the game is to have fun, not to stick to RAW no matter what,
On the designer side, we need some feats to help monks who want to specialize in specific tactics. Archetypes have helped this a great deal, and help diversify the "shaolin monk" fluff that the vanilla monk is steeped in. A healing hand monk for example is a variant of monk that aims to combat the selfish buff aspects of the monk. The monk of the sacred mountain is an attempt at a frontline defender. These are cool and evocative ways for monks to branch out. I would love to see a monk archetype that replaces stunning fist for a leg up on combat maneuvers, perhaps eventually learning advanced versions that can be used against multiple people at once.
I'd love to see some feats that allowed a monk to pick weapons to use as monk weapons or open up the other weapons a monk already has prof. with as monk weapons. This way you could have a "Stick-fighter" monk who uses clubs, or a monk who uses a short sword or spear as a monk weapon.
A archetype that would allow the monk to gain full bab progression at the cost of some class features might be an interesting option as well. (Edit: This could be sort of a boxer or grappler specialist.)
Folks who make the "advanced players only" line of reasoning. I do want to make you aware of some potential pitfalls of that argument in this discussion.
It can be taken as a backhand "L2PLAY nub" comment which I dont think helps stop the hate.
If the "more knowledgeable players" position is "the only way" to make the class operate rather than someone new to the game then couldnt that be seen as an argument that Monk should be a prestige class rather than a core class in the base book? I really dont like this idea. But then again I was overjoyed when dragon released the article "He's Got a Lot to Kick About" back in what Dragon 96 to try and make a 1ed Monk with parity (particulalrly at low levels)
Thats why I think the discussions about transparency or developing true monk varients in the upcoming "ultimate" book serve us better.
I know that for my group we love the 6-10 range we consider it the "sweet spot" as all classes are developed enough to shine, yet some of the "caster/non caster high level disparity" that gets bandied about isnt overwhelming(or apparent to us, YMMV). This means that, in theory, for our play style the monks maneuver and stun options should be viable. We have seen some contentions in this thread that at low double digits this may not be the case. Does anyone have a 3-8 level monk build that Anburaid and I can look at in our attempts to provide clarity and a "leveling guide" for the single digit variations of the Monk.
At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Diamond Body, Rub contact poison on yourself and give out hugs[or touch attacks]. Or smear yourself with ingested poison and throat drive. YAY poison. Smoke inhaled poison cigars and blow smoke at people.
Diamond Body, Rub contact poison on yourself and give out hugs[or touch attacks]. Or smear yourself with ingested poison and throat drive. YAY poison. Smoke inhaled poison cigars and blow smoke at people.
At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Nice! Get an alchemist buddy to swift apply all over you and roll out.
That would be fun a cigar smoking poisoner monk. Named Chu.
Nice! Get an alchemist buddy to swift apply all over you and roll out.Diamond Body, Rub contact poison on yourself and give out hugs[or touch attacks]. Or smear yourself with ingested poison and throat drive. YAY poison. Smoke inhaled poison cigars and blow smoke at people.
At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Hmmm... this reminds me of a character from Firefly. Contact poison lipstick anyone?
Hmmm... this reminds me of a character from Firefly. Contact poison lipstick anyone?
HOLY CRAP, but that's a reference! My wife hates that episode because she always says, "Is that chick really all that hot?"
/end tangent
Bunch of stuff
I'm not going to go point by point on this, but a lot of it comes down to me saying "it's good" and you saying "it's bad".
I don't know where you get the idea that characters need to take out monsters by themselves. Any class is going to have trouble with some of those monsters, but probably different ones depending on who they are. I did not build Facepalm to be a solo character, he is designed with a group in mind.
Hmmm... this reminds me of a character from Firefly. Contact poison lipstick anyone?HOLY CRAP, but that's a reference! My wife hates that episode because she always says, "Is that chick really all that hot?"
/end tangent
The correct answer is, yes.
Lord Twig speaks sillyness! Group? you, you play with other people? The XP!?! You would have to share... Mr. Fishy is going to be sick.
Diamond Body, Rub contact poison on yourself and give out hugs[or touch attacks]. Or smear yourself with ingested poison and throat drive. YAY poison. Smoke inhaled poison cigars and blow smoke at people.
At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
This is the out of the box (out of the pond?) thinking that I thinking that is what makes monks a fun class to play.