It really is easy to make a useless monk. They're like bards that way - poor system/class mastery leads to a crappy character.
Maybe that's why people like wizards, clerics, and druids so much. It's kind of hard to make a useless wizard, cleric, or druid, so long as you put enough points in their prime requisite stat.
(Cue angry responses talking about how hard casting is)
*looks up from his recently crafted 1st level wizard character sheet*
Eh? Not from me you won't. I'm actually under the 25 point buy for my group (24 actually) with a 20 intelligence and a feat that let's me treat my intelligence as being +2 higher for the purposes of anything related to spellcaster (save DC, bonus spells, spells known, max level cast, etc). As soon as I hit 3rd level, the world is my cloister.I know, the mark of a good prepared spellcaster is that they often have just the right spell for the right situation, and they use their resources wisely. Sometimes, poor players will choose the wrong spells, or they will use their spells poorly. But a beginner wizard can always fall back to damage spells, and he's still useful. Not optimal, but far from useless. As long as the wizard has enough intelligence, he can recover from any mistakes made later on. Clerics and druids even more so (but with wisdom).
So true. If I decide I hate my spell selection, I can totally go to another wizard and pay him to let me copy his spell (NPC spellcasting) or just buy a scroll, then make my own scrolls. 1/day per scroll isn't so bad, especially since we have about a week between adventures and can opt to take some downtime of our own.
A monk, on the other hand, has to have stats and feats that agree with each other. If she doesn't, she's going to be ineffectual. She's going to be a liability.
I once saw a player who wanted his monk to be pretty charismatic so he could use reasoning and words before his fists. Instead of using skill points on his skills, he decided charisma needed to be a high stat. That poor monk was good for nothing. He died like three rooms in to a couple of kobolds with longspears (yes, meleed to death by kobolds). He rolled a barbarian after that.
Actually, if you want good saves you should play a Paladin.
We have a level 14 monk in one of our parties.
He got problem with DR
he misses most of his hits (flurry of misses)
when he moves he can't use his flurry so his attack bonus drops
no flurry = can't use most of his Ki-pools abilities.
DR depends from your equip, or how nice are with you the casters, I guess.
Basing on what I've seen, if moves the monk should use a grapple standard action or an opening maneuver, or a stun. In short, something to disable the target. Move to just hit once with a simple attack is a bad move.
The BAB of the first attacks of the flurry is full. AFAIK, it shouldn't miss. Try to get in flanking position. The ideal situation should be:
Round 1: get in flanking position and deliver a disabling attack
Round 2: flurry. A tripped/stunned flanked target is faaaar more easy to hit.
I've to say that often rules don't help the monk (see INA errata, or the fact that they don't automatically qualify for the "greater" version of the maneuver feats.
Nevertheless, say that APG doesn't help the monk is really, really unfair. There are several monk feats and archetypes. One archetype brings flurry. A feat makes you able to reroll maneuvers. Move and roll twice, full level, a kama trip means succeed.
Needs some help and is far from being easy to use, but does not suck.
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The Book of 9 swords is probably the single most balanced book WoTC came out with. That enhancement is bad because it didn't exclude specific weapon feats, when it was meant to sweep in general weapon enhancing feats (the spec tree). It was the feats applied crazily that are imbalanced.
I highly recommend the book. Gave melees many of the options they should have routinely.
Costs...
Full plate +3 is 9k, +11.
14 Dex with a +2 booster is 4k, +3 AC, AC 24
+2 Lg shield is 4k, +4 AC, AC 28.
+2 ring of prot, 8k, AC 30
+2 Amulet Nat AC, 8k, AC 32.Total cost is 33k. No feats, odd magic items, or weird side bonuses. Easily done by level 10. Don't even need mithral armor with armor training.
==Aelryinth
Main difference is the shield, which means your fighter is the dreaded sword and board.
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I think people get frustrated that it doesn't deal damage like a fighter, and forget that it isn't supposed to. It is like comparing Bard's to Sorcerers.Whenever there's a discussion about what a monk is "supposed" to do, it ends up that the only things the monk shines at (compared to other classes) are:
- running fast
- having good saves
That's it. For anything else, you're better off with another class.
Actually, if you want good saves you should play a Paladin.
We have a level 14 monk in one of our parties.
He got problem with DR
he misses most of his hits (flurry of misses)
when he moves he can't use his flurry so his attack bonus drops
no flurry = can't use most of his Ki-pools abilities
Yep, Monks suck.And I like to point out this monk is created using 25 Point buy and he is a strength based monk.
Or that player with that build sucks. Post his build and we'll discuss.
Hmm .... well, regarding the "difficulty" of the monk - it's (IMO) 1 part "thematics" and 1 part "mechanics" that you have to deal with.
On the thematics, they're not all that team-friendly ... I mean, nearly everything they do is for THEM alone. Exception here: status effects being inflicted on enemies. Disarm, trip, grapple, stun, nauseated, etc, etc - these things help everyone out ... generally only on 1 target at a time, though, but still. Beyond the "not much for team play" thing, (already covered well in thread) there is still the matter of being all "crouching tiger" in a King Arthur romp ... it's just weird, so a LOT of the class abilities you look at and shake your head at (Tongue of Sun and Moon) make perfect sense ... in Asian cinema. For D&D ... not so much. The problem with that is that it is, even WITH the APG options, really the ONLY way to play/deal with the monk. I read someone talk of reflavoring abilities w/new names and making it more general - IF there were some alternatives to the actual mechanics behind the abilities, too - like some choice or variation in there, THEN it would certainly be a more viable class "thematically" speaking and would really help it out a bit.
On the pure mechanics end of things - again, I feel it's partly related to the thematics here. They are SO tightly focused and highly limited (only unarmed strikes are made better ... but can't deal effectively with a LOT of special DR's, etc), that it is hard for them to find the "right" feats and gear that will allow them to compete. Now, IF you scour darn near every source possibly put down in any publication, chances are you *can* find some things that will make the monk work REALLY well and can help to shore up his short-comings quite nicely.
Case in point: dump strength. Seriously ... just get rid of it entirely ... or *almost* depending on if you want access to Power Attack or not (in which case a 13 str is just fine for you and nothing more is needed really).
*gasp*
Did I really just say that? Yes ... yes I did. Here's why - "Guided" weapon quality. It's from Pathfinder #10 22 and it's just about perfect for *any* wis-based class. It is a simple +1 enchantment and it grants a bonus to hit and damage based on wis instead of str. It's a replacement-based thing, not an "in addition to" sort of function, so it's Str bonuses, OR Wis bonuses, not both. However, get an amulet of mighty fists, or brass knuckles otherwise, and now you can have a crazy-high Wis stat, focused *nearly* as much as a fighter upon Str only, and you'll be DAMN fine in monk-building.
If you allow for "backwards compatible" in the game, then 3.5 had that "Intuitive Strike" thing that granted a "to hit" bonus based on wis rather than str (no damage boon, though).
Here's the why's as to how it works:
1) Reduction of MAD - yup. If you can dump str for wis, it's one less ability that "needs" to be high. Leave it at 10 and just move along. Monks hardly wear anything anyway, so encumbrance isn't likely to matter much either. Wis, dex, and con are more or less your key abilities ... kind of like a Fighter, really at this point.
2) Wis is a key monk ability - this bears repeating. Wis is a KEY monk ability. It gives AC boons, helps class skills out, and when combined with either of the above suggestions, it keeps 'em fighting-viable really, REALLY nicely. When you can build a monks Wis up with the single-minded determination of say a Fighter building up str, you're in a nice position!
3) Stunning Fist - that opening attack now *means* something when channeling that stun behind it. When Wis is like a 2nd or even 3rd place concern, it's not that great ... BUT when you pump Wis like crazy? Now it's a sizable, and fearful DC to deal with regardless of *who* is getting hammered with it. Throw on a Feat like Ability Focus or something and net another +2 to that DC on top of a primary ability bonus ==> odds are in GOOD standing that you can hang and bang nicely. It's also a great opening move in a standard action that *helps* the party. Why? Because the stun lasts until just before your next action - so EVERYONE on your side gets "free shots" right after you set that up.
4) Medusa's Wrath - awesome when combined with that high opening stun DC. 1st hit of a flurry = stun that fails, and so you get the rest of your flurry, +2 more hits at highest bab ... because you have a HIGH WIS score and bonus.
5) Fiery Fist/Ki-Blast - only works for backwards compatible, BUT if you let a ki-blast come into play, now they have a respectable RANGED TOUCH ATTACK they can use ... for when someone is just too far away. To hell w/shuriken when you can go all Ken/Ryu on some punk's monkey-arse!!! "Ha-do-ken!!!"
Monks can certainly function, AND keep up just fine (everyone that's been building stats and such for their builds, just swap out a +1 enchantment somewhere on the weapon and adjust the stats to build wis like a fighter and see how much more easily the monk can hang and bang now ...). The problem is that you HAVE to look, and look, and LOOK to find the little corner boons for the character to make use of. If you don't do things like that, the MAD will kill you in the end, though.
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The brass knuckles fixed many monk problems, including exotic materials and amulet of mighty fist. The Zen archer is a very SAD build monk, a great save archer that almost keeps up on damage with his fighter counterpart (and makes a great switch hitter, and threatens with unarmed even holding a BoW.
I still think base-book Monks aren't very good, but they've gotten a bit better. And for their mediocre AC, where are the usual "AC doesn't matter" trolls that usually hang out? :).
What I wonder is if the monk unarmed progression instead of solely raising damage dice incorporated crit modifiers (i was thinking mostly threat range but would like to hear if someone thinks multiplier would be better) so that by 18-20 the monk would be sitting on say 1d10 or 2d6 (18-20 x2)per strike? Before imp crit, etc.
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Interesting build concept: Scimitar + monk?
The Dervish Dance literally states that while you are weilding a scimitar in one hand and nothing in the other hand, your damage comes from Dex, not Str.
So, Ghosy monk, dump strength, max dex. Fight scimitar + bare hand two weapon-style, get Dervish Dance and Weapon Finesse. Suddenly you can have a solid AC, high damage output, and are extensively less SAD-dependent.
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Interesting build concept: Scimitar + monk?
The Dervish Dance literally states that while you are weilding a scimitar in one hand and nothing in the other hand, your damage comes from Dex, not Str.
So, Ghosy monk, dump strength, max dex. Fight scimitar + bare hand two weapon-style, get Dervish Dance and Weapon Finesse. Suddenly you can have a solid AC, high damage output, and are extensively less SAD-dependent.
If you're going this route, I would also consider taking Piranha Strike (from Sargava). By allowing power-attack for a DEX based fighter, you can minimize your STR requirements even more while increasing your overall damage by replacing power-attack.
I'd also suggest looking at the feat "One Finger" for the monks out there. Dropping the to-hit on the stunning fist ability to a touch attack can also drive your flurry/stun abilities.
Case in point: dump strength. Seriously ... just get rid of it entirely ... or *almost* depending on if you want access to Power Attack or not (in which case a 13 str is just fine for you and nothing more is needed really).
*gasp*
Did I really just say that? Yes ... yes I did. Here's why - "Guided" weapon quality. It's from Pathfinder #10 22 and it's just about perfect for *any* wis-based class. It is a simple +1 enchantment and it grants a bonus to hit and damage based on wis instead of str. It's a replacement-based thing, not an "in addition to" sort of function, so it's Str bonuses, OR Wis bonuses, not both. However, get an amulet of mighty fists, or brass knuckles otherwise, and now you can have a crazy-high Wis stat, focused *nearly* as much as a fighter upon Str only, and you'll be DAMN fine in monk-building.
If you allow for "backwards compatible" in the game, then 3.5 had that "Intuitive Strike" thing that granted a "to hit" bonus based on wis rather than str (no damage boon, though).
I was considering making a feat along those lines but just for replacing strength bonus with wisdom bonus for damage. Guided weapon does go a LONG way towards making them a much more simple class to work with.
Did I really just say that? Yes ... yes I did. Here's why - "Guided" weapon quality. It's from Pathfinder #10 22 and it's just about perfect for *any* wis-based class. It is a simple +1 enchantment and it grants a bonus to hit and damage based on wis instead of str. It's a replacement-based thing, not an "in addition to" sort of function, so it's Str bonuses, OR Wis bonuses, not both. However, get an amulet of mighty fists, or brass knuckles otherwise, and now you can have a crazy-high Wis stat, focused *nearly* as much as a fighter upon Str only, and you'll be DAMN fine in monk-building.
Do you mean the Adventure Path book #10? And page 22? Or something else? It's not clear to me. I started with the Pathfinder core rules to stay away from 4th edition, so I'm not really familiar with all of their earlier offerings. I'd like to know since I just started a campaign with one of my players playing a monk (the whole party is playing off of the same array of ridiculous rolled stats, so he's not really hurting in any important attribute...although my players are super-spoiled on starting attributes so who knows if we'll ever be switching to point buy without setting a ridiculous total...but whatever). None of my players are big optimizers (so the fantastic stats aren't a huge problem), but I'd like to check that out and potentially point it his way. He's really the only melée guy in the party, other than the summoner's eidolon (and the oracle's not bad, in a pinch, but his player has a dedicated healer mindset).
At any rate, anything I can do to help him stay within the power curve instead of falling behind is worth looking at.
Thats true. The party can't attack the beholder, but Sleet Storm takes the beholder out of the fight, and, most importantly, divides the enemy. The beholder is in the sleet storm for two rounds minimum. You mentioned tumbling over a defensive line, in that time your friendly party members have the oppurtunity to overwhelm the defenders, and prepare for when the beholder escapes the spell. Archers should ready actions, spellcasters cast buffs, ready a spell, I'll jump into the fray and get ready to hit it with some pointy metal while dealing with its friends.
All with the benefit of not rolling anything too. You are right, the disadvantage of sleet storm is you can't attack the creature, but if you know how to use it, it will turn battles. Also, this is only a third level spell, any 6th level arcane caster could do this. The options for this kind of action are much greater for a 13th level character.
I'm going to return to this thread in the morning, I look forward to seeing where this discussion leads.
Did I miss something. I thought a beholders main eye projected out an anti magic field?
Did I miss something. I thought a beholders main eye projected out an anti magic field?Thats true. The party can't attack the beholder, but Sleet Storm takes the beholder out of the fight, and, most importantly, divides the enemy. The beholder is in the sleet storm for two rounds minimum. You mentioned tumbling over a defensive line, in that time your friendly party members have the oppurtunity to overwhelm the defenders, and prepare for when the beholder escapes the spell. Archers should ready actions, spellcasters cast buffs, ready a spell, I'll jump into the fray and get ready to hit it with some pointy metal while dealing with its friends.
All with the benefit of not rolling anything too. You are right, the disadvantage of sleet storm is you can't attack the creature, but if you know how to use it, it will turn battles. Also, this is only a third level spell, any 6th level arcane caster could do this. The options for this kind of action are much greater for a 13th level character.
I'm going to return to this thread in the morning, I look forward to seeing where this discussion leads.
Well either you're blocking the beholder's rays via the sleet storm, or you're blocking them via his own AMF. It's a pretty solid strategy, actually. You see, the beholder can't target things inside it's AMF with its rays so it has to close its eyes. If it closes it's eye, bam, sleet storm's back and the Beholder can't see.
Likewise, while the sleet storm is up you know the beholder's eye is closed, so you can carpet bomb the area (via blasting, alchemical items, etc) while all your friends ready actions to fill the beholder full of arrows and axe-heads when you can see him, which is either A) when he emerges from the sleet storm, or B) opens his eye.
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What I wonder is if the monk unarmed progression instead of solely raising damage dice incorporated crit modifiers (i was thinking mostly threat range but would like to hear if someone thinks multiplier would be better) so that by 18-20 the monk would be sitting on say 1d10 or 2d6 (18-20 x2)per strike? Before imp crit, etc.
To throw out my super crude example. I realize that this in no way alters the MAD or AC issues. I am just curious if "lack of damage" can be overcome in a different fashion.
level (unarmed damage) (threat/mult)
1 d6 20x2
2 d6 20x2
3 d6 20x2
4 d8 20x2
5 d8 19-20x2
6 d8 19-20x2
7 d8 19-20x2
8 d8 19-20x2
9 d10 19-20x2
10 d10 18-20x2
11 d10 18-20x2
12 d10 18-20x2
13 d10 18-20x2
14 2d6 18-20x2
15 2d6 18-20x3
16 2d6 18-20x3
17 2d6 18-20x3
18 2d6 18-20x3
19 2d8 18-20x3
20 2d8 18-20x3
stuff
Interesting ... Might actually be a little more powerful than you expect, as having 8 attack rolls a round is going to practically guarantee a crit chance per round at high levels. Throw in critical feats and you have some crazy stuff going on.
What I wonder is if the monk unarmed progression instead of solely raising damage dice incorporated crit modifiers (i was thinking mostly threat range but would like to hear if someone thinks multiplier would be better) so that by 18-20 the monk would be sitting on say 1d10 or 2d6 (18-20 x2)per strike? Before imp crit, etc.To throw out my super crude example. I realize that this in no way alters the MAD or AC issues. I am just curious if "lack of damage" can be overcome in a different fashion.
level (unarmed damage) (threat/mult)
1 d6 20x2
2 d6 20x2
3 d6 20x2
4 d8 20x2
5 d8 19-20x2
6 d8 19-20x2
7 d8 19-20x2
8 d8 19-20x2
9 d10 19-20x2
10 d10 18-20x2
11 d10 18-20x2
12 d10 18-20x2
13 d10 18-20x2
14 2d6 18-20x2
15 2d6 18-20x3
16 2d6 18-20x3
17 2d6 18-20x3
18 2d6 18-20x3
19 2d8 18-20x3
20 2d8 18-20x3
Well my first impulse is that you'd definitely end up doing more damage overall. It might not be steady but with Improved Critical you'd hit 15-20 as your threat range and your burst damage would benefit greatly from the increased unarmed damage (since 2d8 becomes 4d8, which is an average gain of +9 damage on every critical hit before static modifiers).
If 3.0/3.5 feats were allowed, Roundabout Kick would combo exceptionally well with that. It basically gives an extra unarmed strike at your highest attack bonus when you score a critical hit against an opponent with an unarmed strike.
EDIT: My bad, I just noticed that at 15th level your monk advancement gets an increase to the multiplier. That would mean 2d8 on a critical would become 6d8 (+18 average damage before static modifiers), which would definitely make the monk at least attractive as a mobile skirmisher, similar to a rogue. The idea would be to get inside and them open up with flurries. With a 25% chance to threaten a critical, the monk has pretty good odds to deliver efficient burst damage that way, given the number of unarmed strikes they can get.
I'd like to run the numbers in some play, but at first glance this looks like a pretty solid idea.
good stuff
Very nice, Dragonsong.
This merits study.
Well those were super crude numbers for sure. As I am OK with Monk's being "paper tigers" to a certain extent. I can live with the monk's "role" being putting the BBEG into a, "Do I drop the monk in one round and leave the fighter alive to keep wailing on me, or take a couple of rounds to finish off the fighter and let the "bursty" monk open up a can of FFFFFUUUUUUU.
I also think this allows for Monk builds that might follow through to the disarming, stunning, triping critical feats in APG.
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May I ask if the Monk has a 3/4 BAB why it is classed and being compared with main line fighters? I would think that the BAB alone would indicate a different roll other than DPR was intended for the class? "Fixing" the damage output seem to me at least like redesigning the class to be something the designers didn't see it being.
Personal observation,
S.
May I ask if the Monk has a 3/4 BAB why it is classed and being compared with main line fighters? I would think that the BAB alone would indicate a different roll other than DPR was intended for the class? "Fixing" the damage output seem to me at least like redesigning the class to be something the designers didn't see it being.
Personal observation,
S.
Flurry of Blows is calculated as if the Monk had a full BAB and the Two Weapon Fighting tree of feats with unarmed strike being light weapons.
Increasing critical threat range would make cockatrice strike (I think that's what it's called; new feat from APG) *a lot* more powerful, since it depends on rolling a critical hit. It actually depends on giving up attacks and hoping you roll a critical hit, so I'm not even sure it makes it overpowered, just a lot more powerful.
Hmm...
I do kinda like the increased threat range progression, though. Maybe someone who isn't at work could take the time to run the numbers to see what the expected damage increase would be.
Increasing critical threat range would make cockatrice strike (I think that's what it's called; new feat from APG) *a lot* more powerful, since it depends on rolling a critical hit. It actually depends on giving up attacks and hoping you roll a critical hit, so I'm not even sure it makes it overpowered, just a lot more powerful.
Hmm...
I do kinda like the increased threat range progression, though. Maybe someone who isn't at work could take the time to run the numbers to see what the expected damage increase would be.
I'll take a estimation at it.
20th level monk, 2d8 base, 15-20/x3, so a 25% chance per attack to threaten a critical, and we'll assume Improved Critical and Critical Focus for good measure.For testing purposes, our Monk will have a 26 (+8) strength, which is admittedly less than the expected 30-32 a fighter will probably have by this level, but this is entirely to reflect on the fact that the monk is more MAD and may have been better served to spread out his upgrades a bit.
Our monk when flurrying has the following attack routine, assuming haste and a +5 gauntlet: +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+22/+18 with each unarmed strike dealing 2d8+8+5 damage or an average of 22 damage per successful hit.
Our combat dummy today will be Mr. Pit Fiend with a 38 AC which is pretty solid for a CR 20 enemy without buffs, or a character (like a spellcaster) who has been stripped of buffs.
Our monk has the following chances to hit the pit fiend: 70%/70%/40%/40%/20%/20%/5%. Ironically, the last 3 attacks will always threaten critical hits if they land, but likely won't confirm.
There's a 25% chance that the initial attacks will threaten a critical, which means roughly every 4 successful attacks will include some heavier burst damage.
To try and even out the results, we'll tally the average damage over 10 rounds, and then reduce it based on the % chance to miss attacks, and likewise reduce the critical strike damage based on the chance of missing the confirmation roll.
First Two Hits: 44 reduced to 30.8 due to 30% miss chance.
Critical Every other Round: for +35.2 damage due to 10% miss chance.
Second Two Hits: 44 reduced to 17.6 due to 60% miss chance.
Critical Every Other Round: for +26.4 due to 40% miss chance.
Third Two Hits: 44 reduced to 8.8 due to 80% miss chance.
Critical Every Other Round: for +4.4 due to 10% miss chance.
Last Hit: 22 reduced to 1.1 due to 90% miss chance. Critical hit probability is negligible.
My rough estimate is an average of about 124.3 damage per round over a period of 10 rounds.
Then again, I'm probably over simplifying it.
The numbers would twitch considerably against a lower or higher AC foe.
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May I ask if the Monk has a 3/4 BAB why it is classed and being compared with main line fighters? I would think that the BAB alone would indicate a different roll other than DPR was intended for the class? "Fixing" the damage output seem to me at least like redesigning the class to be something the designers didn't see it being.
Personal observation,
S.Flurry of Blows is calculated as if the Monk had a full BAB and the Two Weapon Fighting tree of feats with unarmed strike being light weapons.
Thanks for that. So what your saying is the Monk is class that can't have it's cake (movement) and eat it too (damage). Why isn't that seen as balanced?
Honest questions, not trolling.
Thanks,
S.
May I ask if the Monk has a 3/4 BAB why it is classed and being compared with main line fighters? I would think that the BAB alone would indicate a different roll other than DPR was intended for the class? "Fixing" the damage output seem to me at least like redesigning the class to be something the designers didn't see it being.
Personal observation,
S.Flurry of Blows is calculated as if the Monk had a full BAB and the Two Weapon Fighting tree of feats with unarmed strike being light weapons.
Thanks for that. So what your saying is the Monk is class that can't have it's cake (movement) and eat it too (damage). Why isn't that seen as balanced?
Honest questions, not trolling.
Thanks,
S.
Didn't think you were trolling. I prefer to give benefit of the doubt most of the time. :)
This thread operates under the premise that their damage output is subpar based on a fighters damage output. I'm not 100% sure if folks think their damage should come close but not exceed a fighter's, or if they think it should exceed it becasue of a lack of armor (the paper tiger comments).These are just hypothetical ponderings of possible solutions to increase a monk's damage per round and remain balanced.
As far as having and eating cake, barbarians get fast movement, fighter-like damage, can rage, has DR and wears armor. Is he getting his cake and eating it too?
May I ask if the Monk has a 3/4 BAB why it is classed and being compared with main line fighters? I would think that the BAB alone would indicate a different roll other than DPR was intended for the class? "Fixing" the damage output seem to me at least like redesigning the class to be something the designers didn't see it being.
Personal observation,
S.Flurry of Blows is calculated as if the Monk had a full BAB and the Two Weapon Fighting tree of feats with unarmed strike being light weapons.
Thanks for that. So what your saying is the Monk is class that can't have it's cake (movement) and eat it too (damage). Why isn't that seen as balanced?
Honest questions, not trolling.
Thanks,
S.
I think that this partly a legacy of what the 3.0 designers originally decided for monks combat style a la flurry (attacking with several jabs, kicks, elbows, punches, etc), and the full attack/standard attack divide. Monks have always needed their targets to stand still for them to do significant damage (although they now can do a fairly decent vital strike if they got the feat).
So partly this is about the development of combat in DnD/PF in general. The fights (the ones not decided by magic) revolve around who can get the most full attacks on the other target. This is especially true when fighting BIG monsters, who can level any non-Full BAB character in one attack.
Example, Monks could have been built with the ability to make 5-foot steps between each flurry/iterative attack, the drawback being the general lower damage output.
So would it be acceptable to test that a Monk could-- at the cost of giving up his last iterative-- take a five foot step for every iterative they are willing to give up?
Main difference is the shield, which means your fighter is the dreaded sword and board.The Book of 9 swords is probably the single most balanced book WoTC came out with. That enhancement is bad because it didn't exclude specific weapon feats, when it was meant to sweep in general weapon enhancing feats (the spec tree). It was the feats applied crazily that are imbalanced.
I highly recommend the book. Gave melees many of the options they should have routinely.
Costs...
Full plate +3 is 9k, +11.
14 Dex with a +2 booster is 4k, +3 AC, AC 24
+2 Lg shield is 4k, +4 AC, AC 28.
+2 ring of prot, 8k, AC 30
+2 Amulet Nat AC, 8k, AC 32.Total cost is 33k. No feats, odd magic items, or weird side bonuses. Easily done by level 10. Don't even need mithral armor with armor training.
==Aelryinth
Since Sword and board is the most effective overall fighting style, I see absolutely no problems with that!
==Aelryinth
Main difference is the shield, which means your fighter is the dreaded sword and board.The Book of 9 swords is probably the single most balanced book WoTC came out with. That enhancement is bad because it didn't exclude specific weapon feats, when it was meant to sweep in general weapon enhancing feats (the spec tree). It was the feats applied crazily that are imbalanced.
I highly recommend the book. Gave melees many of the options they should have routinely.
Costs...
Full plate +3 is 9k, +11.
14 Dex with a +2 booster is 4k, +3 AC, AC 24
+2 Lg shield is 4k, +4 AC, AC 28.
+2 ring of prot, 8k, AC 30
+2 Amulet Nat AC, 8k, AC 32.Total cost is 33k. No feats, odd magic items, or weird side bonuses. Easily done by level 10. Don't even need mithral armor with armor training.
==Aelryinth
Since Sword and board is the most effective overall fighting style, I see absolutely no problems with that!
==Aelryinth
I doubt a Fighter would spend 4,000gp on a belt and make it Dex. Probably he would get either Str +4, or Str, Dex and Con +2 for 16,000. For that comparison to be fair you need to subtract 12,000gp from what the Monk spent.
The same could be said about a previous posts that allowed a fighter to have Cat's Grace because it is "a low level buff". In that case the Monk could get Mage Armor, which is only 1st level and save 9,000 on his bracers AND get another +1 to AC.
Otherwise I have no problem with a sword and board Fighter. I like the feel of them and they can still put out enough hurt that it would be dangerous to ignore them.
I made my own attempt at a 12th level Monk. I think he turned out pretty good. This is all core only.
Human Monk 12
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init: +7
Senses: Perception +19
DEFENSE
AC: 29 (10 base, +3 armor, +3 Dex, +4 Wis, +4 Monk, +2 Deflection, +1 insight, +1 Dodge, +1 defending)
Touch: 26
Flat-footed: 25
HP: 111 (12d8+48)
Fort: +14 (8 base, +3 Con, +3 resistance)
Ref: +14 (8 base, +3 Dex, +3 resistance)
Will: +15 (8 base, +4 Wis, +3 resistance) (+2 vs. Enchantment)
Defensive Abilities: Immune disease and poison, Improved Evasion
OFFENSE
Speed: 70 ft.
Melee: +17 Vital Unarmed Strike (4d8+7+1d6/19-20x2)
OR +18/+18/+13/+13/+8 Flurry Unarmed Strike (2d8+7+1d6/19-20x2)
OR +18//+18/+13/+13/+8 Adamant Kama of Defending +1 (1d6+7/20x2)
Ranged: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4 Masterwork Shuriken (1d2+6/20x2)
Offensive Abilities: Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist (13/day, DC 20)
STATISTICS
Str: 22 +6 (15 base, +2 racial, +3 level, +2 enhancement)
Dex: 16 +3 (14 base, +2 enhancement)
Con: 16 +3 (14 base, +2 enhancement)
Int: 10 +0 (10 base)
Wis: 18 +4 (14 base, +4 enhancement)
Cha: 8 -1 (8 base)
BAB: +9/+4; CMB: +18; CMD: 40 (+2 to grapple and trip)
Feats: Blind Fight, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lunge, Medusa's Wrath, Stunning Fist, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills: Acrobatics +18, Knowledge (religion) +9, Perception +19, Sense Motive +19, Stealth +18, Swim +15
Languages: Common
SQ: AC Bonus, Abundant Step(Dimension Door, 2kp), Diamond Body, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, High Jump(+12 jump; +20 jump, 1kp), Ki Pool(10 ki points), Ki Strike (magic, lawful), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 60ft., Still Mind, Wholeness of Body (heal 12hp, 2kp)
Equipment
Amulet of Might Fists, +1 Frost (20,000)
Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16,000)
Bracers of Armor +3 (9,000)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000)
Headband of Insightful Wisdom +4 (16,000)
Monk's Robe (13,000)
Ring of Protection +2 (8,000)
Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism (+1 insight AC) (5,000)
Adamant Kama of Defending +1 (11,002)
Masterwork Shuriken (50) 310
107,312
108,000gp
So Facepalm would start combat by spending 1 Ki point for +4 AC then charge up to 70' and Vital Strike for +19 to hit doing 4d8+7+1d6=28.5 avg. damage with Stunning Fist (save DC20) and would have 31AC. If the stun succeeded and there weren't too many other enemies around he would use a Ki point for an extra attack and use Medusa's Wrath for +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 with 29AC. Against a stunned opponent he should hit a lot and do about 80-100 damage. This is admittedly best case.
If the initial attack fails he has a several options for the next round.
1. If he thinks he is pretty safe he can still go with the full flurry option, hitting for about 40-60 avg. damage.
2. If there are a lot of mooks he can spend 1 Ki point on AC, fight defensively and then use Lunge to spread around some stun and trip attacks with a 34AC.
3. If it is just one big monster then forget Lunge and have a 36AC. His damage will go down, but he still should get a hit or two in, so maybe 20-40 avg. damage.
4. If it is a caster go for the grapple or prepare an action to disrupt spell casting with another Vital Strike Stunning Fist attack.
There are probably a lot of other options as well, plus, no matter what happens, he has placed himself so that the enemy can not charge his casters.
One thing I would -not- want is for the Monk to be turned into just another DPSer like the Fighter.
I don't care whether the Monk can do as much DPS as the Fighter. That's not his job.
That bolded part *is* damn interesting. What *is* his job, then, would you say?
*glasses on to inspect reply*
I think that the answer to that will possibly be different from many of us, so I'd like to at least start up with one response. I mean, *what* are they supposed to do?
They don't cast - at all.
They're not sneak-attackers ... not really, no "good" damage adding types of stuff to make this work (like say the targeted fighty-types w/things like Smite, or FA, or SA, etc)
They can't buff a DAMN thing ... and CHA is probably dumped FAR more than all other stats in just about every monk build (I bet Fighter's get more use out of Cha actually).
So ... what does that leave? To *me* it looks like it just leaves them with combat ... so, are they supposed to suck at the only thing left on the table option-wise for them? I'm not really following what "the job" is supposed to be for them if not combat, my man.
On the build front: Just plucking some stuff I've heard/read batted around the boards, a fighter can get a pretty high primary stat by 20th level, like in the 32 or something range. That's a +10 on it's own.
In a flurry, a monk has a BAB equal to a fighter with all of the 2WF feats in play. If you go with that Wis as the A#1 ability as I laid out above, and use that Guided enchantment, you get a monk that can equal a fighter's "to hit" boon before factoring in all the weapon training stuff. The monk is going to be at about a -6 or so behind the fighter all said and done (Weapon Training and the Focus lines) in to hit, and he'll be about 9 points behind on damage adding (WT and WS boons). I'm not factoring magic junk as, frankly, both can match in the +5 weapon bonus or whatever in all likelihood, so it's not all that relevant.
AC-wise I've seen some monster high level Fighter's w/crazy high AC's. Call it maybe a 40-ish or so. Let's see what the monk can manage then, eh? [pure generalizations here, mind you]
*Bracers of Armor at 8
*Wis bonus at +10
*Dex bonus at a secondary influence comparable to a fighter - maybe 20-24 range?, so a +5-+7
*Ring of Protection for a +5 deflection
*Amulet of Natural Armor or the like for +5
Just stopping there it's an AC of about 43-45 or so ... that's perfectly respectable, too.
Offense wise, it's brass knuckles with a +6 overall enchantment level to get the +5 status (and more or less by-passing all DR's, mind you) and he can have Guided in play to make his Wis factor in for "to hit" and damage rolls. It's solid.
Oh! DC for Stunning fist this way would be 10 + (1/2 level = 20) 10 + (wis mod) 10 = 30 DC to overcome ... that's not an easy thing to reach, EVEN if you're a high/Good/whatever Fort save type of character.
By base, you've got a +12 roll at that point, and with con at say a 3rd level, *maybe* a 20 or so for con (ie: +5 bonus), and then throw on a cloak of resistance +5, and you're rolling a +22 vs. a 30 DC ... assuming no feats or what have you in play that boost things beyond what I've shown above with "basic" or "common" boosting items. I mean, rolling an 8 or more leaves a pretty good chance to fail the save. (40% chance of failure, no?)
Add to this, that if you fail a save the monk's likely to have that Medusa Strike, it's more attacks "free", and then add in a ki-burn, and the monk may *not* hit as hard as a fighter, but he gets WAY more chances to hit more often (and potentially crit while he's at it).
Just throwing this out there for consideration, really.
One thing I would -not- want is for the Monk to be turned into just another DPSer like the Fighter.
I don't care whether the Monk can do as much DPS as the Fighter. That's not his job.
Not trying to be a jerk, but could you elaborate what their job is? Perhaps a lack of clarity is part of the problem contributing to the "monk hate" we have been trying to get at.
I don't think the monk has a job which is part of the problem. He has some skilsl, and some combat, but not enough to justify taking him over any other class. I know the bard is similar, but the bard makes the party better, even if he never does damage, and he handles social situations. He also has bardic knowledge. The monk is not really providing anything unique to the party.
I like the flavor, and I enjoyed playing one, but the mechanics are meh.
edit:formatting kept messing up so I made things easy.
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Not trying to be a jerk, but could you elaborate what their job is? Perhaps a lack of clarity is part of the problem contributing to the "monk hate" we have been trying to get at.One thing I would -not- want is for the Monk to be turned into just another DPSer like the Fighter.
I don't care whether the Monk can do as much DPS as the Fighter. That's not his job.
Which brings us to the philosophical question of what is the purpose of D&D-like games? By spending such a large amount of time making 'balanced' characters in terms of combat related ability then one answer would be. "D&D-like games are a way to link a series of skirmish level table-top battles", which given the amount of micro-management during a combat seen in the newer rule-sets, would indeed seem to be the case. Taking this definition, the Monk probably does deserve the hate due to combat related short-comings and D&D-like game being predominately about combat.
However I believe that out of combat the Monk does have a place, and more so than the Fighter in a lot of ways. 2 skill points + INT for the Fighter against 4 + INT for the Monk. A Monk gets Slow Fall, High Jump, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, (Improved) Evasion, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun & Moon, and Empty Body. All can have a function outside of combat. The Fighter gets... sorry nothing, please go find something to hit, until then have fun with those limited skills.
Perhaps we need to start a thread regarding the redundancy of a Fighter out-side of combat?
S.
Not trying to be a jerk, but could you elaborate what their job is? Perhaps a lack of clarity is part of the problem contributing to the "monk hate" we have been trying to get at.One thing I would -not- want is for the Monk to be turned into just another DPSer like the Fighter.
I don't care whether the Monk can do as much DPS as the Fighter. That's not his job.Which brings us to the philosophical question of what is the purpose of D&D-like games? By spending such a large amount of time making 'balanced' characters in terms of combat related ability then one answer would be. "D&D-like games are a way to link a series of skirmish level table-top battles", which given the amount of micro-management during a combat seen in the newer rule-sets, would indeed seem to be the case. Taking this definition, the Monk probably does deserve the hate due to combat related short-comings and D&D-like game being predominately about combat.
However I believe that out of combat the Monk does have a place, and more so than the Fighter in a lot of ways. 2 skill points + INT for the Fighter against 4 + INT for the Monk. A Monk gets Slow Fall, High Jump, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, (Improved) Evasion, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun & Moon, and Empty Body. All can have a function outside of combat. The Fighter gets... sorry nothing, please go find something to hit, until then have fun with those limited skills.
Perhaps we need to start a thread regarding the redundancy of a Fighter out-side of combat?
S.
A fighter played by a clever player is not useless outside of combat. There is not one fighter build that do everything a monk can do outside of combat, but there should not be. Then the monk would be picked even less, but a fighter can do some things a monk can do depending on what is needed and level.
In a flurry, a monk has a BAB equal to a fighter with all of the 2WF feats in play. If you go with that Wis as the A#1 ability as I laid out above, and use that Guided enchantment, you get a monk that can equal a fighter's "to hit" boon before factoring in all the weapon training stuff. The monk is going to be at about a -6 or so behind the fighter all said and done (Weapon Training and the Focus lines) in to hit, and he'll be about 9 points behind on damage adding (WT and WS boons). I'm not factoring magic junk as, frankly, both can match in the +5 weapon bonus or whatever in all likelihood, so it's not all that relevant.
I wouldn't leave out the +5. The fighter gets more benefit from it due to weapon mastery at 20th level. Not only does the +5 account for more accuracy and therefor more Power Attack damage (monks don't really benefit much from PA) but it makes their critical hits more powerful, and since 20th level fighters auto-confirm criticals and increase the multiplier by 1, it means the fighter gets an extra +5 damage on on every critical hit. If the fighter is wielding a scythe, he gets an extra +25 damage from the weapon enhancement, whereas the monk only gets a +10 on that damage and doesn't auto-confirm critical hits. Likewise the monk cannot make their unarmed strikes keen.
Perhaps we need to start a thread regarding the redundancy of a Fighter out-side of combat?
Taken from this post where I've been getting huge amounts of flak (and being called names) for my cheesy munchkinizing for having a 7 charisma and not being socially retarded.
Sigfried the not so unsocial fighter.
Init +2, Senses Perception +2
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 12 (1d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3
Speed 20ft
Melee Longspear +3 (1d8+3, reach) or Bladed Gauntlet +3 (1d4+2)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+2)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +1, CMB +3, CMD 15
Feats - Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave
Skills (6pts) - Climb +6, Handle Animal +2, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Ride +6, Survival +6, Swim +6; Modifiers -4 check penalty
Overview: Our fighter (let's call him Sigfried) here at 1st level is a strong and capable fighter who's got a lot going for him as fighter. He's got good saves, he has a balanced combat routine, benefits from a high strength score, gets a solid AC on a budget, has 15 gp left to spend on additional adventuring equipment (possibly including a wooden shield). He's spent most of his time learning how to fight (he is a fighter after-all).
2nd Level Human Fighter (15 pb)
Init +2, Senses Perception +2
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 19 (2d10+4)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +3; Bravery +1
Speed 20ft
Melee Glaive +4 (1d10+3, reach) or Bladed Gauntlet +4 (1d4+2)
Ranged Sling +4 (1d4+2)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +2, CMB +3, CMD 16
Feats - Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Point Blank Shot
Skills (6pts) - Climb +6, Handle Animal +3, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Ride +6, Diplomacy +0, Bluff +0, Sense Motive +2; Modifiers -3 armor check penalty
Overview: At 2nd level, Sigfried has already reached an above average ability to tell when people are lying, and likewise is no worse at social interaction than the average person. He has upgraded his chainmail to masterwork chainmail to reduce his check penalties, and also upgraded his longspear to a glaive for an average of a +1 damage increase.
3rd Level Human Fighter (15 pb)
Init +2, Senses Perception +2
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 27 (3d10+6)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +4; Bravery +1
Speed 20 ft
Melee Mwk Glaive +6 (1d10+3, reach) or Bladed Gauntlet +5 (1d4+2)
Ranged Sling +5 (1d4+2)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +3, CMB +4, CMD 17
Feats - Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Skills (6pts) - Climb +6, Handle Animal +4, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Ride +6, Diplomacy +1, Bluff +1, Sense Motive +3, Swim +7; Modifiers -3 armor check penalty
Overview: At 3rd level, Sigfried has upgraded his armor to masterwork banded mail and a masterwork glaive. He grabs a couple potions of magic weapon and enlarge person in case of emergencies. Meanwhile he learns to swim, and his social skills are the equivalent of someone with a 12 charisma.
4th Level Human Fighter (15 pb)
Init +2, Senses Perception +2
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 34 (4d10+8)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +4; Bravery +1
Speed 20 ft
Melee Mwk Glaive +8 (1d10+4, reach) or Bladed Gauntlet +7 (1d4+3)
Ranged Mwk Composite Longbow (+3) +7 (1d8+3) or +4/+4 (1d8+3)
Str 16 (15), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +4, CMB +7, CMD 19
Feats - Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Skills (6pts) - Climb +7, Handle Animal +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Ride +6, Diplomacy +2, Bluff +2, Sense Motive +4, Swim +7; Modifiers -3 armor check penalty
Overview: At 4th level, Sigfried has increased his strength score at this level, and has upgraded his armor to masterwork banded mail and a masterwork glaive. He grabs a composite bow and a +1 strength magic item (1,000 gp). He takes Rapid Shot to be a competent archer as well. Meanwhile he's reached charisma 14 in terms of social skills, and he's very skilled in sensing motives. He uses his +5 handle animal skill to train oxen (purchased for 15 gp anywhere) to be his war mount and attack animals. He now has animal minions. Finally, his power attack now adds a +6 damage for a -2 penalty.
5th Level Human Fighter (15 pb)
Init +2, Senses Perception +2
AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 18 (+7 armor, +2 dex, +1 deflection)
Hp 42 (5d10+10)
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +5; Bravery +1
Speed 20 ft
Melee +1 Glaive +10 (1d10+7, reach) or Bladed Gauntlet +8 (1d4+3)
Ranged Mwk Composite Longbow (+3) +8 (1d8+3) or +6/+6 (1d8+3)
Str 16 (15), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +5, CMB +8, CMD 20
Feats - Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Combat Reflexes
Skills (6pts) - Climb +10, Handle Animal +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Ride +6, Diplomacy +4, Bluff +4, Sense Motive +6, Survival +5, Swim +9; Modifiers -3 armor check penalty
Overview: At 5th level, Sigfried is doin' a good job as a fighter. He can deal solid damage, and his feat selection allows him to comfortably support both short range and ranged damage. Combat Reflexes allows him to use his glaive to greater effect, and weapon training gives him additional attack and damage. He carries a few oils of magic weapon (or purchased scrolls of such for his allies) to grant his other weapons enhancement bonuses in case of DR enemies. He also purchased a ring of protection and a cloak of resistance. Meanwhile, he's got a +4 bonus to social skills and a +6 bonus to Sense Motive. He also placed on rank into Survival for its utility in the wilds.
Summary: We can see that the Fighter's diplomacy and bluff modifiers are always equal to his level -1, which effectively gives him the social graces of someone with no ranks but a +2 charisma every level. Diplomacy and most Bluff DCs don't scale much (Bluff DCs only increase if the NPC has the appropriate ranks, abilities, and are of adequately high levels). He can also take 10 and automatically sense when someone is dominated.
We've given up no combat utility or ability, and we're dropping an extra rank into some skills now and then to round out our fighter. After we've got a decent mix of skills, we can catch up/max our favorite skills by dropping more than one rank in them per level.
In short, our Fighter is built for combat while also retaining usefulness outside of combat. He is socially adept. This doesn't include a wide girth of equipment such as masterwork tools, minor +competence bonus items, or continual buffs or similar, since I thought it better to keep it simple. At 7th level, he will take Leadership and acquire a cohort 2 levels lower than himself (at the maximum cohort level) even with his charisma penalty (so the penalty is meaningless). By 20th level, he should easily be able to hit the cap of 25 leadership via some cheap magic items and leadership modifiers).
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A fighter played by a clever player is not useless outside of combat. There is not one fighter build that do everything a monk can do outside of combat, but there should not be. Then the monk would be picked even less, but a fighter can do some things a monk can do depending on what is needed and level.
Not useless, but has no special abilities of note. I can't find out level related ability in the entry of Fighter in the PF core rules that can be used outside of combat. The list for the Monk is rather impressive, ok not up there with the Wizard, but in fairness Wizards can do everything.
I think that we are wearing blinders when we focus only on combat when discussing a class.
S.
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Perhaps we need to start a thread regarding the redundancy of a Fighter out-side of combat?Sigfried the not so unsocial fighter.
** spoiler omitted **...
Nice. You really highlight on of the strengths of 3.xe with the skills to overcome stats.
I was thinking more of class based abilities out of combat. But still love your example fighter.
Impressed,
S.
[
Not useless, but has no special abilities of note.
That is true, but the party really only cares that the job gets done, not whether it was done through a magic item or class features, but I do see your point. It still remains that a fighter is very good at what he does, so he gets a job. The monk's resume is hard to read so he does not get a lot of interviews.
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That is true, but the party really only cares that the job gets done, not whether it was done through a magic item or class features, but I do see your point. It still remains that a fighter is very good at what he does, so he gets a job. The monk's resume is hard to read so he does not get a lot of interviews.[
Not useless, but has no special abilities of note.
I agree. The Fighters job is a no-brainer. This thread seems to focus on putting forward situations, i.e. combat, and showing the Monk somehow fails. How about we put up a few environmental 'encounters' and then do a comparison? I can think of a few situations where I would be far happier with a Monk in the party rather than a Fighter.
Perhaps I just fail to see D&D = combat.
S.
That is true, but the party really only cares that the job gets done, not whether it was done through a magic item or class features, but I do see your point. It still remains that a fighter is very good at what he does, so he gets a job. The monk's resume is hard to read so he does not get a lot of interviews.[
Not useless, but has no special abilities of note.
I agree. The Fighters job is a no-brainer. This thread seems to focus on putting forward situations, i.e. combat, and showing the Monk somehow fails. How about we put up a few environmental 'encounters' and then do a comparison? I can think of a few situations where I would be far happier with a Monk in the party rather than a Fighter.
Perhaps I just fail to see D&D = combat.
S.
The monk can do some things better, but a typical party is normally a lot better off with a fighter in it than a monk. The things a fighter can't do well, and the things the monk does do well are normally covered by the other party members.
Combat is mentioned because it drives the engine most of the time.
I agree that grappling can sometimes be useful, but a monk is not really any better at grappling than a fighter or ranger with the correct feats.The frustration is that often the monk's biggest contribution is not causing damage but preventing the other side from being able to inflict damage. I once spent most of a combat keeping an enemy archer grappled. Was not able to inflict much damage but kept him from using rapid shot on the party with a strength bow.
That is a a building built on quicksand.
You cant say that a fighter or a ranger is a better DPSer and then say they can also be better grapplers too, the fact is fighters and rangers have to make a choice between the two. If a fighter decides he is going to take some grapple feats and be effective then that is less feats for power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization, cleave, and so on and so forth.
That is the point of a fighter build, you have to choose a build. very rarely can you dabble in multiple feat trees and be amazing at both.
the monk is simply very good at grappling while being relatively threatening at DPS. Not to mention their other boons which make them impossible to kill.
Send in the Monk, stand back with some bows and take out the rest of them or pick off them off from a distance.
Abundent step, stunning fist, flurry of blows. Rince and repeat to all enemies in the combat or take down the really threatening one with some grapples or trip manuevers.
A good point was brought up about "What is the point of D&D?" or in our case, Pathfinder. It seems to me that it is about the same as an action movie.
An action movie needs to have a story that accomplishes three things. It needs to introduce a Hero that we like, a Villian that we love to hate, and then have that Hero kick the Villian's butt. Pathfinder is the same.
Pathfinder isn't a strategy game where everything is balanced and you have a 50/50 chance to win. Honestly you are going to win 95% of the time if not more. The balancing of classes is so that all players get a feeling of being powerful and useful. That is not a bad thing for an RPG to aim at.
So what is the Monk's job? It probably depends on the Monk, but looking at the Monk I posted above I figure he is a scout and skirmisher. Not a "you guys wait here" type of scout, but more of a "I'll walk 50' ahead of you guys and look for trouble" type of scout. Similar to what a Rogue might do. With a +18 Stealth, +19 Perception +7 Initiative and a load of defensive abilities he should do fairly well in that roll. For skirmishing he can be up front and harassing the BBG or he can run back and pull enemies off the party healer or he can flank for the rogue or can go harasses the enemy spell casters. He has the mobility to get there and the staying power to make a difference. Also notice that all of those things help the party in some way.
For social encounters he is probably going to be about the same as a Fighter. He has Knowledge: Religion and Sense Motive to help out in diplomacy encounters, whereas the Fighter might have Intimidate and maybe some Animal Handling.
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Also notice that all of those things help the party in some way.
+1. The Monk is what the Monk is. This post highlights thinking about what the Monk CAN do not focusing on what the Monk CAN'T do.
Well done that man,
S.
PS: Also +1 for Wraithstrike's last post, also good points in my wee mind. I will add the first thing I did when the training wheel came off my bike was discover three things, in order of events; I can fall off, gravity, and the ground hurts on impact.
That is true, but the party really only cares that the job gets done, not whether it was done through a magic item or class features, but I do see your point. It still remains that a fighter is very good at what he does, so he gets a job. The monk's resume is hard to read so he does not get a lot of interviews.[
Not useless, but has no special abilities of note.
I suspect the reason some people find the monk's job hard to read is that those people are hung up on the ridiculous notion of "roles". A monk isn't a defender, controller, striker, or leader.
Some people get more hung up on what a character's "role" is than in whether or not they meaningfully contribute to the party. Worse, some people confuse the idea of meaningful contribution and think that if a character doesn't fit a "role", they don't contribute meaningfully.Roles are training wheels. Eventually, you learn to take them off and, after you do, you find that the bicycle can do things you never expected.
Even without the roles* thing the question of "why should I take a monk" comes up. RP aside why should anyone pick a monk. I am aware that this is an RP game, and that should influence how people play, but even with an RP based idea it has to be viable mechanically. Nobody likes to be dead weight or just dead. This does not mean a monk is never useful, but it requires more effort than many feel like putting into it.
*We have disagreed on this enough, and I see no need to derail the thread.