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I'm going to be starting a new campaign soon, and was thinking of allowing my players the choice between a 20-point buy, or rolling (either 4d6 drop, or 2d6+6, haven't decided yet).
However, when parties roll for stats, there's always a disparity in the rolls, sometimes drastic, like when one PC has two 17s and nothing less than 10, and another has two 9s and his highest score is a 15.
So, how do you folks handle this problem? Let the dice fall where they may and deal with the consequences? Do you let low-rollers re-roll or add points? Some other solution?
We rolled stat arrays for Second Darkness, and there was extreme disparity in said arrays. Two players definitely had sub-par stats while the other three PCs enjoyed 32+ PB arrays.
Both the players with the lousy arrays refused multiple offers to re-roll.
I think it was for this very reason that we employed a 25 PB for our current campaign.
If you want party balance, don't roll attributes.
I suggest either a point-buy or an array.
If your players insist on rolling, and I have had players for whom that's an important part of the game, then here's an option I've used.
- Everyone gets out a piece of scrap paper, pen, and dice.
- Everyone rolls attributes using 4d6-drop or some other common method. (Don't worry too much about having a super high-rolling method.)
- Everyone writes down their rolls on the scrap paper and hands them to the DM.
- The DM copies all of the stat blocks onto a piece of paper and passes it around. Each player can use whichever stat block they prefer.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Compensate low rollers. The technique I've found effective: give each character an additional trait every three point-buy points she's behind the party leader.
Example Roll 4d6, keep the best 3, for each attribute; with a minimum roll of 6
Character 1
; ;
; ;
{14, 12, 4 (rises to 6), 11, 14, 12} Pathfinder point cost: 5 + 2 - 6 + 1 + 5 + 2 = 9
Character 2
; ;
; ;
{10, 13, 4 (rises to 6), 14, 14, 12} Pathfinder point cost: 0 + 3 - 6 + 5 + 5 + 2 = 9
Character 3
; ;
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{13, 11, 14, 15, 15, 15} Pathfinder point cost: 3 + 1 + 5 + 7 + 7 + 7 = 30
In this case, Characters 1 and 2 would need 21 points to buy their attributes up to par with Character 3. So Characters 1 and 2 get 7 bonus traits.
I prefer a point buy, but some folks have everyone roll a set of stats and the players get to pick which one they'll use. That sounds fair enough as well.
EDIT: As Blueluck noted above.
I've always preferred rolling before point buy. Usually we roll 4d6, drop the lowest and reroll ones. This generally lead to very powerful characters, which works for me.
My players always prefer rolling, even if they end up with sucky stats. I'd actually prefer them to be more balanced.
Never really come up with a way to do that other than to have everyone roll and choose the best set and have everyone use that...but then you just end up with a group of characters with the same much-better-than-average set of stats and end up beefing up encounters to challenge them.
So, for me, I can't really see a solution. I have offered them the choice of x point-buy or rolling (but you keep what you get) to let the player decide if they want to gamble or not. At least it's their choice so I guess that's fair even though you'll have some characters with high or low stats from time to time.
M
My players always prefer rolling, even if they end up with sucky stats. I'd actually prefer them to be more balanced.
For a year and a half, two players used gimped arrays. In the end, they had fun with it. The rest of the party coalesced around the weaker members.
I wish I had the personal fortitude to do it myself, take the low stats and be happy with it.
I'm going to be starting a new campaign soon, and was thinking of allowing my players the choice between a 20-point buy, or rolling (either 4d6 drop, or 2d6+6, haven't decided yet).
However, when parties roll for stats, there's always a disparity in the rolls, sometimes drastic, like when one PC has two 17s and nothing less than 10, and another has two 9s and his highest score is a 15.
So, how do you folks handle this problem? Let the dice fall where they may and deal with the consequences? Do you let low-rollers re-roll or add points? Some other solution?
To avoid stat disparity use point buy.
OR
Have everyone roll one set of 4d6 7 times. Drop the lowest die on each roll and drop the lowest roll from the 7.
Have the table determine which set is the 'best' rolled and have everyone use that same set, assigning rolls to stats as they want.
Either way everyone starts on the same foot, though option two generally leads to pretty strong characters unless your table rolls are horrendous en masse.
How well do you know your group? There are players who don't really care about the balance of power between PCs. I found in that case have everyone roll 2 sets and use which they prefer, works ok. It's rare to roll two extremely unusuable sets. Some players pout about bad stats and some gloat about good. If there are such players with, totally random rolling may not be a good idea.
An interesting way I developed was: Give players some points like 15 to 20 and let them buy any stats they wish and roll the rest. This has the advantage of possibly having surprising stats on characters but still allowing customization where required.
If there are players that want rolled stats and players who want bought, a fun compromise could be: Have everyone roll. Calculate the point value of the best stat line. And let anyone who wishes, buy a stat line with about 15% less points.
I yet to figure out a way to make rolling produce remotely even characters. Strike that, remotely even characters in the neighborhood of a 20 point buy.
There is nearly always a player who rolls 2 18s. If I bump up all the low rollers, then the entire table has 2 18s and I have to tweak every single encounter to compensate.
The only way I know to get all of your players within, oh, + or - 5 points of whatever power level you want is point buy.
So, for me, I can't really see a solution.
I kinda forgot to mention this in my earlier post. To get more stable stats when rolling you could add the following to the rolling process.
Each player rolls as normal. When they have rolled for all six stats, have them tally up the numbers they get and check to see if the total amount falls between two numbers. I'd go with 60-95, but you could easily alter the number to fit the campaigns/adventures power level.
If the number falls between those two numbers that means the character is viable and re-rolling is not allowed. If the number is outside the character is either overpowered or crippled and the stats must be re-rolled.
Doing this allows you to put a cap on how powerful a beginning character should be and also prevents players from getting 'unplayable' characters, while still providing the random aspect of rolling. If very powerful starter characters is acceptable just ignore the capping number.
What I have done is allow them to choose any of the methods (other than point buy) in the book and generate two sets of stats. If neither of those is acceptable to the player, they then can select an array. I don't have it on my right now, but it is something like:
17, 16, 14, 13, 11, 10
Windquake
Honestly we just make sure that no one has anything TOO horrible (the 3x rules for rerolling if the total bonus is less then +1 and/or don't have at least one 15) and other then that we just run with it. By the time you hit 8th of 10th level it doesn't matter that much anyway.
We are starting a "Pathfinder/Spelljammer" campaign starting at 2nd level with a 25 point buy. Seems to be where all of my players are happy...and if the players are happy, the DM usual is:)
We... didn't.
If you are going to roll stats, you take the lows with the highs. Sometimes you are the windshield sometimes you are the bug. If you let folks roll high while "fixing" those who roll low- why are you rolling for stats?
If the Players can't handle having low scores then find a different way to do it.
Yes, it can and often does end up with some folks being supermen and others barely able to eek out life as a farmer... but that's what rolling scores is all about.
-S
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If you have a group of people who are willing to work together, you can allow them to trade.
That way, the guy who got an 18 and two 16's can trade one or two of those high stats out to the poor guys that rolled nothing above 12.
All trades must be voluntary, however. Make sure your players don't start coveting the stats of other characters, because that's bad. Once everyone is happy with their stats, you can start.
We... didn't.
If you are going to roll stats, you take the lows with the highs. Sometimes you are the windshield sometimes you are the bug. If you let folks roll high while "fixing" those who roll low- why are you rolling for stats?
If the Players can't handle having low scores then find a different way to do it.
Yes, it can and often does end up with some folks being supermen and others barely able to eek out life as a farmer... but that's what rolling scores is all about.
I agree... as long as I get the high rolls. :)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I yet to figure out a way to make rolling produce remotely even characters. Strike that, remotely even characters in the neighborhood of a 20 point buy.
Begin with all attributes at a base value of 8.
Roll 32 dice. Don't add anything. Every result of "1" is a point-buy of Strength. Every result of "2" is a point-buy of Dexterity. And so on. (2 points brings the attribute up to a 10; after that, use Pathfinder conventions.)
Example 1:
"1's" - ///////
"2's" - /////
"3's" - //////
"4's" - /////
"5's" - /////
"6's" - ////
Strength 7 points = score of 14
Dexterity 5 points = score of 13
Constitution 6 points = score of 13, remainder 1
Intelligence 5 points = score of 13
Wisdom 5 points = score of 13
Charisma 4 points = score of 12
Place the remainder where it will do the most good. In this case, Charisma.
One criticism of this method is that it tends towards characters with several strong stats, where the player might want a less balanced profile. One way around that is to roll 16 dice, and count each one as two points of point-buy.
Example 2:
doubling
"1's" - //
"2's" - //
"3's" - ////
"4's" - //////
"5's" - //////////
"6's" - ////////
Strength 2 points = score of 10
Dexterity 2 points = score of 10
Constitution 4 points = score of 12
Intelligence 6 points = score of 13, remainder 1
Wisdom 10 points = score of 15, remainder 1
Charisma 8 points = score of 14, remainder 1
Moving the remainders for Intelligence and Charisma to Wisdom raises the Wisdom score to 16. Or the player might decide to distirbute those remainders among the lower physical attributes.
The method Craig Shackelton proposed in Dragon magazine #346, which uses Three Dragon Ante cards to scramble the point-buy values, works as well.
In any case, this is a random method that guarantees a character with a point-buy total of 20.
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It's the same problem that came out of rolling for hit points. The people who tended to survive also tended to roll well for HP in the past. It wasn't always true, but it was a trend that was noticed.
Rolling for stats is about the same way, either you have to come up with some ridiculous method for rolling a particular amount of dice and then modify it out or you just accept the party of one guy who was unlucky and has a 3-5 in one-three stats fighting alongside the three 17's wizard or throw it all out and try to balance it on your own which defeats the point of stat rolling.
Point buy has always been what our groups have liked here, rolling for stats was something you do for fun on one-off games or when we're playing old school D&D out of the rules cyclopedia.
Even then it was 3d6 straight down the line like it's supposed to be. ;)
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The people who roll should know they run the risk of low scores. If they don't want that risk, they should use a point-buy. Let the dice fall as they may.
This works if your players are ok with one player being "more powerful" than others.
However, with the dice rolling methods versus point-buys, you can have disparity depending on your chosen buy (15, 20, etc.) Also, if you begin allowing "swaps" of rolls, etc., you might as well just do point-buy. It's about the same thing - optimizing your stats.
It's the same problem that came out of rolling for hit points. The people who tended to survive also tended to roll well for HP in the past. It wasn't always true, but it was a trend that was noticed.
Yeah, I'm not crazy about rolling stats, but I can deal with it. But rolling the minimum value for hit points really drives me nuts. :-)
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I do the following:
A. Have the player declare first what class they're going to play before stats are rolled up.
B. Have the player write down the initials for each of the stats in order.
C. Have the player roll, in order, each stat. 4d6, reroll all 1s, drop the lowest die.
D. Finally, the player may swap any two (2) stats if necessary to qualify for entry to his chosen class. Not optimalness, just entry.
E. I have the player tally up the character's points to see what this character would cost if bought via "point buy."
F. If any of the characters are significantly below the others as judged by "point buy," offer to let them a chance for a second set of stats rolled up by the GM.
What are the benefits of this method? It gives you characters who aren't all stamped out of the same minmaxed cookie cutter press with the same boringly predictable dump stats. Instead you get other stuff: Unusually charismatic wizards. Intelligent barbarians. Healthy necromancers. A sorcerer who can actually carry his own loot without magical assistance. Basically, it makes much more realistic people.
Players can also have their characters swap to whatever their optimal class would be after 1st level, but you end up getting again realistic characters: The wizard who realizes he'd make a much better con man and rogue than he ever would a wizard and so drops out of mages academy despite the disappointment of his parents but still has the knowledge of that first year. The fighter who runs off to become a bard. That sort of thing.
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I give all my players set stats. I give them 17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 13 and let them place them wherever they choose. That way even their lowest stat has a positive modifier but they aren't OP. I used to do 4d6 drop the lowest but I really dislike that method. It can stick you with some pretty bad numbers so I use the afore mentioned method now.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That works, Kevin. How about this:
There are all sorts of parameters that a party could place on its members. "We want our Wizard to be smart," of course. But the players might decide to run an "espionage-themed" campaign, where all the characters in the party, even the brute warriors, are going to want a decent Dexterity and Wisdom. Or they might decide they're all escaped gladiators, so they all need decent Constitution and Charisma scores.
So, let's set up the character generation in two phases: determining first what the party as a whole requires, and then the best candidate that applies.
Step 1: Outline minimal satisfactory attributes with a 15-point buy.
Step 2: Roll 4d6*, keep the best three, for each stat, in order.
Step 3: Take the better of the two, for each attribute.
I want to play a Sorcerer in this espionage party. So we set the minimum satisfactory attributes at:
Str - 8 (-2 pt.)
Dex - 14 (5 pt.)
Con - 10
Int - 10
Wis - 12 (2 pt.)
Cha - 16 (10 pt.)
Now we roll to determine if the party gets a more impressive applicant.
Str - 8 or 12; 12
Dex - 14 or 14; 14
Con - 10 or 12; 12
Int - 10 or 14; 14
Wis - 12 or 10; 12
Cha - 16 or 11; 16
Guaranteed to have each attribute at least as good as the minimum you'd tolerate. But the process is open to wonder.
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I'm going to be starting a new campaign soon, and was thinking of allowing my players the choice between a 20-point buy, or rolling (either 4d6 drop, or 2d6+6, haven't decided yet).
However, when parties roll for stats, there's always a disparity in the rolls, sometimes drastic, like when one PC has two 17s and nothing less than 10, and another has two 9s and his highest score is a 15.
So, how do you folks handle this problem? Let the dice fall where they may and deal with the consequences? Do you let low-rollers re-roll or add points? Some other solution?
Cater the found magic items towards the characters who seem to be lagging, with regards to stats.
let the player roll 2 sets of stats, using 4d6, and pick the one that suits his character.:)
Creative Director
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I'm going to be starting a new campaign soon, and was thinking of allowing my players the choice between a 20-point buy, or rolling (either 4d6 drop, or 2d6+6, haven't decided yet).
However, when parties roll for stats, there's always a disparity in the rolls, sometimes drastic, like when one PC has two 17s and nothing less than 10, and another has two 9s and his highest score is a 15.
So, how do you folks handle this problem? Let the dice fall where they may and deal with the consequences? Do you let low-rollers re-roll or add points? Some other solution?
I actually prefer rolling dice for stats. My method of dealing with disparities between stats is to work to minimize them at the start. My favorite tactic here is to let each player roll up 3 sets of characters, using the 4d6/drop the lowest/arrange how you want method. Any character that results in a net ability score bonus of +2 or lower doesn't count. Once you have your three sets of characters, pick the one you want to play.
This DOES result, as a general rule, in pretty high-powered characters with high stats, but that's actually the type of game I prefer to run. But by allowing 3 sets of characters and allowing rerolls of slightly above average or worse characters, you lessen the chances for random bad luck will inflict a terrible set of rolls on a player. While the ability scores still don't end up totally equal, they're usually close enough that it doesn't matter. It's always worked out pretty well in my games, for the most part.
EXCEPTION: Once in a great while, you'll have a player who, for whatever reason, ends up not having nearly as good stats as other players, either because he deliberately chose sub-optimal stats or because he just really wasn't as luck as the other players. In this case, and only if the player of the sub-optimal stats is obviously upset by the situation, I generally try to solve it by giving that player a few in-game boosts to his stats so that he gets up closer to where the other players are. Whether these boosts come in the form of custom-built feats or class abilities, magic items with strong campaign storyline ties, the results of a mystical Harrow reading, blessings from spirits or other NPCs, or whatever depends upon the themes and flavor of the campaign at that time.
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Hm. If you're looking for more variation than using PB, you might try randomizing it a bit...?
For example, use a 15 PB and then allow the players to add 2d4. It would range from 17-23 with the average at 20. Change the dice to change the spread.
Or the trait idea above was pretty good; you could even expand on it. For example, perhaps the human could forfeit his bonus feat and gain +5 PB, or any PC could forfeit one or two traits and gain +2 per trait.
You could try playing "white elephant" using stat rolls that you've done in advance. Use your favorite dice roll technique and roll up enough stats so that each player would have one (and then add two more) to a "pool" of stats. Make sure that they're within acceptable limits for your campaign. Then the players dice to see who gets to choose first. The first player draws a random set of stats from the pool; they tell the others what those stats are. Then the next player can choose to either take the stats from the previous player (who gets to draw again) or draw their own. This continues until all players have a set of stats. Then the first player gets one last turn to draw randomly or take the stats of another player -- that player can swap their stats for what the first one had or can draw randomly.
At this point the players are stuck with what they have. :)
(I think that's how White Elephant is played. But I'm sure a Google search will prove me wrong. ;))
I use Point Buy because the players actually request it. We average the hitpoints rounding up (not including Constitution, so that it remains a true bonus).
I feel kinda mean though, right now. I made them use 15 points. Our Runelord's campaign really seemed over-powered in the PC's favor.. so starting Serpent's Skull I made them adhere to 15 points.
Their jaws dropped, but they did as I asked.
I might leak some points back later as non-traditional rewards if I see the need. Though if they read this, I definitely want to try it as is first.
3d8+2 drop the lowest, roll once for each stat.
I had a DM that simply used the following:
Any stat you want any place.
Mod Bonuses couldn't add up over 8.
No one bonus over 4, no penalty less than -3, before stat adjustments.
And I am on the other side of this fence. Two characters come to mind.
First was a BECMI mage, who put his best stat in int and next best in con so I had a +1 con bonus. Max hp at first level. ** EVERY ** hit die rolled after that, except one of them I rolled a 1, and on that one it was a 2. I even had a buddy of mine who was darn near rolling max hp for his fighter roll one of mine, and it was a 1 also.
Second was a 3rd edition Paladin. Never mind that he could not cast spells because of low wisdom, he did not have a con bonus as his only +stat core was put into strength. Max hp at 1st level, then for 2nd and 3rd level I rolled a 1. He died just after making third level as he could not stay in the font of the group. One hit and he died.
Never again will I play with rolled stats and/or rolled hp.
-- david
Papa.DRB
As a player, I walk away if it isn't rolled stats. If I end up on the low side of the curve, then I deal with it as best I can.
However, when parties roll for stats, there's always a disparity in the rolls, sometimes drastic, like when one PC has two 17s and nothing less than 10, and another has two 9s and his highest score is a 15.
So, how do you folks handle this problem?
IMO, this disparity is the semi-masochist "quality" of rolling stats as opposed to point buy.
When I DM, my PCs always come into play with the same amount of "blessings", or karma if you prefer. Those who weren't blessed with high stats ultimately receive more of "something else".I leave that intentionally vague, but I make it clear (for myself) that every player should be more or less equally equipped to have fun.
How do I deal with stat disparity in a rolled-stat game? I make sure there are stat-boosting items in treasure drops throughout the campaign and leave it up to the players. I find that in rolled stats campaigns, players are more willing to divide stat boost items to compensate for low rolls than in point buy campaigns. In rolled stat games, players learn to make do with some mutual sympathy. In point buy campaigns, they let you suffer for your dump stat choices.
In my experience, that is.
We had some success utilising the multiple array options across the group. Something like each player rolls once (4d6 drop the lowest or just 3d6, depending on taste) and everyone can pick any of the resulting arrays around the table. Strangely there were people in our group very resistant to this (on the grounds that it resulted in several players with the same numbers, although assigned differently) and who therefore preferred point buy...resulting in several players with the same numbers assigned differently.
It possibly undercuts some of the attraction (I don't know if people who prefer rolling secretly want to be either the star quarterback or the lame hunchback...?) Nonetheless, when we tried it it made the 'roll up characters' session a little more of a communal effort.
EXCEPTION: Once in a great while, you'll have a player who, for whatever reason, ends up not having nearly as good stats as other players, either because he deliberately chose sub-optimal stats or because he just really wasn't as luck as the other players. In this case, and only if the player of the sub-optimal stats is obviously upset by the situation, I generally try to solve it by giving that player a few in-game boosts to his stats so that he gets up closer to where the other players are. Whether these boosts come in the form of custom-built feats or class abilities, magic items with strong campaign storyline ties, the results of a mystical Harrow reading, blessings from spirits or other NPCs, or whatever depends upon the themes and flavor of the campaign at that time.
Oh, agreed.
One of my favorites to do is to run characters out on a solo adventure at the start for each of them and let some of the unluckier in stat rolling have a direct encounter with Dame Fortune, straight from the fairytales, and have her offer some magical gift to basically the lucky millionth shopper. It makes for a fun bit of flavor and a great encounter, especially when you've got characters and players without the Knowledge Arcana or Knowledge Religion to realize the significance of running into a crazy lady with a chariot drawn by pigs.
For Golarion, the obvious choice for the same role would be Cayden Cailean, because who's going to realize that an encounter with some drunk guy in a bar is going to be anything out of the ordinary?
My method requires a little math (not that hard, but some people are against anything above simple arithmetic on principle).
What I did is have each of my players roll 4d6 drop lowest 6 times and then arrange them in order from greatest to least. I then averaged each character's scores down the line, so each highest score, then the next highest score, etc.
So two stat arrays of:
18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8
16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6
Would become:
17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7
I took a holistic approach to deciding whether to round up or not when dealing with non-whole numbers. If anyone rolled absolutely terribly then I would have them reroll. In this way you get the enjoyment and randomness of rolling without anyone being left behind.
I used to roll stats and still like the theory behind it, but I've found that in practice, having to deal with intrinsically imbalanced characters from the get-go only leads to headaches. What headaches?
These are the main two reasons I switched to point-buy. Simply put, the potential benefits are overshadowed by the negatives. I've also started using static HP results at each level (per Pathfinder Society rules) for the same reason. I see no reason to penalize a player over the long term for short-term luck.
If you are still insistent upon rolling, then consider allowing 1's to be rerolled and/or allow players to opt for a point-buy that is close to being capable of approximating the average of the rolled characters' scores... I'd be rather surprised if 20 points comes anywhere close.
I much prefer rolling stats, having a low point buy means playing a class with MAD is pretty rough. At least with the rolling of stats it is possible. In the past a mutual DM of Freesword and mine, normally has had us roll 4d6, reroll 1's and drop the lowest, place stats where you want. Yeah, we've had characters with multiple 18's but we've also had characters with nothing over 12 or 14.
Don't roll stats - roll a Character.
[..]
Our group rolls 4d6 five times, (after the dice are properly warmed-up by a good roll). That way every Character gets at least one extraordinary stat to start life with. We arrange stats to suit the desired class.
I always find it funny when someone complains that using a point buy is ROLL-playing, not ROLE-playing, or that it doesn't result in "organic" ability scores, and then it's revealed that the rolling method he uses in his game is something like 14+1d4 rolled 100 times and pick the best 6. (Okay, that's a huge exaggeration in this case, but you get my point.)
...
QFT !
(I used to play with folks who would totally not have fun unless their character was "super-human"... Like starting off with 19 STR, a few 17s, and nothing under 14, lol.)
I, on the other hand, could play anything.
I think rolling your stats is ultra-fun!! I never knew what I was going to play until I rolled those stats. Yeah, I had crappy stats sometimes, but that made my character even more interesting... I actually THRIVED on it. Took it as a sort of a challenge.
I totally agree with Pundragon that said "Don't roll stats - Roll a character"...
Thumbs up Pundragon!
:)
Ultradan