<3 firearms in my D&D :)
Personally I've actually reduced their reloading times somewhat drastically under the thought process of "Well none of the OTHER weapons are 'realistic.'"
Not sure how I am on this... on one hand I feel its wierd to add it and would just as soon just ignore them (which of course I can at my table) but on the other hand I just cant help thinking they should do a tad more damage and can see also it as a natural growth (assuming physics and chemistry work the same way at the basic level when uninfluenced by magic).
How many of you have tried firearms and what were your experiences?
I just can't see anyone developing a weapon that explodes when exposed to fire in a world where wizards are tossing around fire balls, burning hands, and scorching rays. Think about an army trying to rely on this stuff. One fireball to your supply tent and not only are you out of ammo, but you're going to ADD to the explosion.
Not sure how I am on this... on one hand I feel its wierd to add it and would just as soon just ignore them (which of course I can at my table) but on the other hand I just cant help thinking they should do a tad more damage and can see also it as a natural growth (assuming physics and chemistry work the same way at the basic level when uninfluenced by magic).
How many of you have tried firearms and what were your experiences?
I just can't see anyone developing a weapon that explodes when exposed to fire in a world where wizards are tossing around fire balls, burning hands, and scorching rays. Think about an army trying to rely on this stuff. One fireball to your supply tent and not only are you out of ammo, but you're going to ADD to the explosion.
Well, in Golarion they were developed in the middle of a dead-magic area.
Well, in Golarion they were developed in the middle of a dead-magic area.
Right, but what happened in Golarion is probably going to STAY in golarion.
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I entirely disagree.
Firearms should be more common in Golarion simply because the technology exists and it is just that, technology... not magic.
I can easily see a pistol or otherwise similar weapon being a STAPLE weapon for any alchemist or someone with the time and energy invested in engineering, alchemy, or a flair for "something different."
That being said, yes gunpowder is dangerously flammable, but so are pints and barrels of oil (That I might mention nearly EVERY adventurer and soldier would have on/near them in combat). In addition it opens up a whole new economy. Non magical, portable ranged weapons that are easy to use would be an AMAZING boon on the battlefield. You also underestimate how unstable stable most firearms can be.
Also consider that firearms really aren't that much more deadly than any other weapon -- dispite hollywood's constant suggestions to the contrary.
I entirely disagree.
I can easily see a pistol or otherwise similar weapon being a STAPLE weapon for any alchemist or someone with the time and energy invested in engineering, alchemy, or a flair for "something different."
An alchemist sure. Their job description has "must not mind blowing self to bits on bizarre experiment" in big bold letters in the want add.
That being said, yes gunpowder is dangerously flammable, but so are pints and barrels of oil
Those are flammable. Gunpowder is explosive.
(That I might mention nearly EVERY adventurer and soldier would have on/near them in combat).
Drawing on medieval traditions, there's no reason for soldiers to have oil. Battles were fought mostly in daylight by groups who announced where they were with big flashy pennants and uniforms ( for those who could afford them)
In addition it opens up a whole new economy. Non magical, portable ranged weapons that are easy to use would be an AMAZING boon on the battlefield. You also underestimate how unstable stable most firearms can be.
I know that early fire arms had HUGE reliability problems, and i can't imagine that having to leave an open hole between the air and the pan is going to be good when some pyro happy mage drops in a fireball.
I'd have to wonder how magic would affect battlefield tactics. Would it be like ww1 where you have people entrenched and afraid to move, or would you simply have the ww1 solution to that problem.. wave after wave of bodies being thrown at the opposition until the wizards run out of spells?
The Greeks and other early peoples used Greek fire and the Chinese used gunpowder and guns, well more like pazookas in the ancient times :)
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I know that early fire arms had HUGE reliability problems, and i can't imagine that having to leave an open hole between the air and the pan is going to be good when some pyro happy mage drops in a fireball. /
That is very true, but the kind of firearms produced in Alekenstar are NOT early firearms. They are even referred in the campaign setting as "Modern Firearms." The kind of simple firearms you are thinking about were inadequate and barely functional. The kind of weapons that come out of these dwarven smithies are on par with post industrial era non-automatic firearms such as the iconic "Double-Barrel" shotgun, and Colt .45
If your setting has castles and things that fly, you have already abandoned realism :p
As for how magic effects battlefields, it doesn't. Either both teams have wizards that do nothing but negate the other wizards, or the very existence of mass combat is nonexistent due to the nature of spells like Cloudkill, causing almost all civilization to collapse.
For that matter, we're lead to believe that the world exists in a vague medieval/ren-era setting despite having many of the tools for the Age of Information around. This is ignoring how priests can literally eliminate disease and druids can destroy the concept of slow population growth.
Long story short, D&D has never been able to stimulate a "realistic" setting. Ever.
I think we might be missing the whole geology side of this. Assuming that the gunpowder in Golarion is like our world regarding the make up of powder - either Black Powder, Smokeless Powder, or Black Powder Substitute - requires a fair amount of mining to get the minerals needed to make the powder. If these aren't available in large amounts then it throws off everything else, and to the best of my knowledge this type of fluff is very vague.
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I think the firearms need a tad more firepower.
However, a person that is swift.
"A fella, a quick fella might ave a weapon under there.
I'd have to pin his head to the panel."
Ok, back on topic.
There are several ways for an experienced player to dodge and roll his way out of a direct shot (that is how I reason it). This would make the damage less because of being just grazed.
However, being caught flatfooted should become like a surprise attack giving some kind of damage bonus. I mean really, point and shoot.
This is sort of why I like the "Exploding" dice optional rule. Every time you roll max damage on your damage dice you roll another. Works very well to explain a graze (single d6) from a gut shot (3d6) to a shot in the head (Very lucky 5d6 or more).
I have a player that has been using a revolver and we've had some very enjoyable results. :)
Personally, loved Firearms in the campaigns we've run, as people rarely took them simply for the fact they were hellaciously expensive and difficult to source in most regions, necessitating the PC either paying through the nose for ammunition or taking 7 ranks in Craft (Gunsmith) to be able to repair their weapon and make their own ammunition.
That said, for characters that didn't give a rat's arse about stealth and collateral damage, firearms and explosives are a lot of fun.
"Stick yer spells up yer arse!" Was the catch-cry of one Barbarian we had with us who lugged around a Blunderbuss for the sole reason of firing it the first round of battle and then charging into the aftermath his +3 Flaming Thundering Blunderbuss caused. Was the cause of much contention between him and our Sorcerer over whose 'fireball' was more effective.
I had a TWF Ranger with the firearms, a Half-Orc bounty-hunter with a Hound companion, used a Rifle for long-range sniping (bullets had Arcane Mark inscribed on them so his Mirror of Scrying could track down the targets) and a pair of pistols for up-close work. God he was a lot of fun but as soon as he starting firing, everything knew where he bloody was, so Stealth ended up being maxed out to hell just to avoid the retaliatory zerg by everything within a three-mile radius that came to investigate the noise ....
The "Why bother with firearms when you have magic?" argument is missing one important fact: "You" don't have magic. Only wizards do (well, and other spellcasters). Sure, spellcasters on Golarion are not just a handful of god-like beings, but neither is Golarion a place where everyone and their pets can use magic.
You can, on the other hand, just buy firearms and train lots and lots of soldiers you just happen to have lying around in their use.
Let the enemy have his 2 wizards in his army. You are going to have dozens of musketeers to every spellcaster. Let's see him cope with that. And the fun part is that even your level 1 soldiers have firearms. Wizards need a few levels until they get to the fun stuff like fireball.
That's why it makes sense to have firearms in a magic world.
Some of the stories about the Forgotten Realms touched on the subject of firearms in a setting with a high magic background level (everyone who knows the good old Realms knows that its magic level was right through the roof). One story involved some off-worlders trying to smuggle gunpowder into the world by the ton, but they were shut down by one of the most powerful (and most meddlesome) archmages. He was against the stuff because it put spell-like fire power into the hands of the inexperienced - people who, unlike wizards, didn't have to spend years learning their craft and usually pick up at least a bit sense of what sort of power they're wielding along the way.
The "Blow up the ammunitions" thing can be worked around - make every soldier carry his own powder (when they're hit by a fireball, they're toast, anyway, and this way you won't have extra large explosions), or have ammunitions storage with a bit protection.
In the end, I think the firearms question will always boil down to personal preference: Do you WANT to have them in your game? Nothing else matters really: Whatever option you decide upon, you can justify it somehow, and adjust the world to make it work if necessary.
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...train lots and lots of soldiers you just happen to have lying around...
And there's the rub.
Your pre-modern society never has lots of soldiers lying around.
Citizen armies recruited at the last minute are what you have. They train with what they can afford (if you make them, as English kings did when they ordered everyone to practice archery).
To have armies bearing guns you have to either create the circumstances for large standing armies or you have to make guns affordable and desirable for everyday folk.
Well, in Golarion they were developed in the middle of a dead-magic area.Not sure how I am on this... on one hand I feel its wierd to add it and would just as soon just ignore them (which of course I can at my table) but on the other hand I just cant help thinking they should do a tad more damage and can see also it as a natural growth (assuming physics and chemistry work the same way at the basic level when uninfluenced by magic).
How many of you have tried firearms and what were your experiences?
I just can't see anyone developing a weapon that explodes when exposed to fire in a world where wizards are tossing around fire balls, burning hands, and scorching rays. Think about an army trying to rely on this stuff. One fireball to your supply tent and not only are you out of ammo, but you're going to ADD to the explosion.
Sorry, but you're talking about a tactical move by an army to destroy the enemy's gunpowder supply. I've played Twilight 2000 where our goal was to blow up an enemy's stockpile of ammo in order to weaken them. In a fantasy setting, you could just as easily blow up their forges or mithril mines in order to get rid of their weapons.
I like the idea of firearms as long as they work with the setting. If I'm playing a paladin in chain mail and someone walks in wearing a trench coat, t-shirt, and has two glocks strapped to their waist, it makes it harder for me to get into the game.
...train lots and lots of soldiers you just happen to have lying around...And there's the rub.
Your pre-modern society never has lots of soldiers lying around.
I'm sorry. I forgot about that, and that Pathfinder absolutely has to follow stuff like that.
...train lots and lots of soldiers you just happen to have lying around...And there's the rub.
Your pre-modern society never has lots of soldiers lying around.
Yeah - the need to plant crops/harvest crops used to have a HUGE impact to 'campaign' seasion... and those rulers who ignored that tended to experience famine.
Back in the 900-1100's a few hundred men was an army... vikings used to take out multiple villages along the English coast with a single longboat of armed men (20-40)... and even these needed to go back at harvest etc.
Why didn't Merlin summon some sea snake to eat their boat?
That TWF twin revolver wielding character sounds like a LOT of fun...
It's a lot of fun. My younger brother played a bard who did this. The bard was an alchemist and tactical adviser to the party's patron (whom died early in the campaign) and his primary weapons were revolves, a scattergun, and simple grenades (the clay-pot style, not the pull the pin count to 5 (3) grenades.
Thats the argument I can see... but which is cheaper to man your armies with? Crossbows or Muskets? Which is easier to train your men in? Which is more effective (and we may as well use the game damage) in accuracy and damage dealing?
Needing an exotic weapon feat makes training your army time consuming. At this point its the light Crossbow - cheap, available, simple weapon, D8 damage (forget the exploding dice whose probability varies) - but it doesn't always stay that way...
At 1000+ coin a musket with maybe 10-20 gold in powder/shot is VERY expensive fodder for a fireball... but that assumes that these musketeers will be up against magic. Smart small unit scattered shooter tactics would evolve (unlike the form in ranks and fire as a unit tactics from the 1600-1800's) and if mass production continues to lower the price/availability then it becomes a bit more in favour progressing to fire arms.
Value: This is a very, very real consideration. Bullets aren't really much more lethal than bows and arrows (and bows had a faster rate of fire even around the united states civil war period, according to the history channel), unless you get a dice-explosion (such a great optional rule). Being exotic and requiring a feat makes it far more difficult to arm your army, since you could have equipped your experts, adepts, and warriors with slings, crossbows, and bows. They can even sport 1 (or 2) feats which would have been wasted on that firearm proficiency (and stuff like improved initiative, skill focus (stealth), toughness, and so forth are very meaningful to 1st level NPCs).
Drawbacks: Combine this with the fact firearms are a tactically poor choice. Stealth is pretty much right-out. While slings, crossbow, and bows are relatively quiet (especially at a distance), fire-arms aren't quiet at all. My brother's dual-wielding bard was constantly attracting more enemies onto the party when he was using his weapons (in a spider & ettercap infested forest, 4 spiders quickly turned into 8 spiders + 2 ettercaps).
Cost: Then if you get into the cost & expense of firearms (even if you divided their price by 10), they're still quite expensive and would be impractical for fielding an army with. Even more modern armies have been armed with inferior weapons for reasons of expenses or even contracts (watch some of the shows about World War II weaponry on the History Channel).
My Games: I like firearms in my games, but I see them as specialized weapons. Weapons used by the few, like magic items. They're cheaper in my games (literally 1/10th the price, with ammo like slings), have explosive dice, no failure chance (they require a feat, screw that), quick-load cylinders (basically instead of reloading one bullet at a time, you slap in a new cylinder), and so forth, but they're really not terribly common. NPCs don't use them much, and even players don't generally use them often (since they're loud) except for flavor, style, or specific strategies.
Magic: An army will certainly possess a large number of adepts, if not PC classed units. An adept can make use of scrolls, wands, and staffs crafted by PC spellcasters just fine. An country that arms one or two of their 1st level adepts with partially charged wands of lightning bolt (225 gp per charge) can decimate powerful units on the battlefield in short order.
If you use the Golarion prices for firearms, it would be cheaper to dot your army with adepts or 1st level wizards with wands than it would be to actually field a single unit with firearms.
Likewise, these are fantastic fantasy battles. People could easily be riding on flying mounts, or flying via potions (anyone around 5th level can probably sport a potion of fly to turn the tide today), dropping fireballs, or even just using splash weapons like alchemist fire.
Army Equipment: I noted to a friend recently that any 1st level human adept, expert, or warrior can sport a longspear (or better), spiked gauntlet, studded leather armor, a sling and ammo for it, and a few flasks of acid. That's reach weapon, ranged weapon, light & mobile armor, and 4 grenades to tear apart enemy formations.
Consider if an entire unit (let's say 50 soldiers) decides to chuck one of their 4 flasks of acid. The splash damage alone is enough to completely destroy most creatures below CR 5, let alone anyone who actually gets hit with acid. The unit could do this 3 more times before being out of their acid grenades.
Combined with the fact you could load your flasks of acid into your sling and hurl them over great distances (due to splash damage, you really don't have to hit spot-on), a single unit of soldiers can double as artillery and carpet bomb people (while remaining relatively silent).
Food for thought. ^_^
Oh, there is that, but the flip-side is that Guns do, I believe, have much, much greater range than Arrows or Crossbows, and it's also the sort of weapon your enemies can't just pick up and use, which is a double-edged sword, given how much the average firearm costs in Golarion, but there you go.
I see it as a 'new' technology, much like the water-powered Mill or the machines used to spin wool. For a few decades(or a century or so) they were quite rare and only the rich had them, until the process used to create them was streamlined and spread through the apprentices of the original creators and their use became more and more wide-spread.
We're not talking about rank-and-file warriors here, they're best equipped with a Heavy Crossbow or Composite Longbow and placed in the good old three-deep configuration, with the first rank firing, then dropping to their knees, then the second rank firing and doing the same, then the third and the first rank stand up, or they all just aim up into the sky and loose all at once.
Firearm-equipped troops, however, have the advantage of shock and more than likely the opposing force would have no idea what they are facing. Get a crack team of marksmen +5 Distance Rifles with ammunition enchanted to kill on hitting a target and you could basically wipe out the command structure of the opposing army nearly silently and from a distance unheard of by other weaponry, with only the much-maligned Heavy Crossbow coming anywhere close to matching. Likewise, shock-troops equipped with Scatterguns can clear trenches or tunnels effectively as a Wizard's fireball without bringing a low HD and highly valuable member of the army into melee range of anything from the lowly Kobold to the dreaded Drow Priestess.
Oh, there is that, but the flip-side is that Guns do, I believe, have much, much greater range than Arrows or Crossbows, and it's also the sort of weapon your enemies can't just pick up and use, which is a double-edged sword, given how much the average firearm costs in Golarion, but there you go.
Unless they've been updated - the stats I have for the firearms in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting - they in fact don't have better range unless you're talking about the absolute most expensive rifle which has a 150ft range (40ft more than a composite longbow). The majority of them aren't accurate at great ranges, and things like revolvers deal 1d6 damage by default.
We're not talking about rank-and-file warriors here, they're best equipped with a Heavy Crossbow or Composite Longbow and placed in the good old three-deep configuration, with the first rank firing, then dropping to their knees, then the second rank firing and doing the same, then the third and the first rank stand up, or they all just aim up into the sky and loose all at once.
Hence why I said firearms just aren't practical in units.
Firearm-equipped troops, however, have the advantage of shock and more than likely the opposing force would have no idea what they are facing. Get a crack team of marksmen +5 Distance Rifles with ammunition enchanted to kill on hitting a target and you could basically wipe out the command structure of the opposing army nearly silently and from a distance unheard of by other weaponry, with only the much-maligned Heavy Crossbow coming anywhere close to matching. Likewise, shock-troops equipped with Scatterguns can clear trenches or tunnels effectively as a Wizard's fireball without bringing a low HD and highly valuable member of the army into melee range of anything from the lowly Kobold to the dreaded Drow Priestess.
So basically you're saying equip this elite unit with a set of 72,000 gp weapons, before any other gear, just so you can shoot from an extra 800 feet for an average of 9.5 damage while making huge amounts of noise and having an absolutely horrible rate of fire? Are you joking? Like, really? Really?
Heck, if you wanted to do that, why not just get some +1 distance catapults? They'd be a hell of a lot cheaper, and would require less time to make, a lower level caster to enhance them, and so forth.
Heck, for that amount of money, you could have armed a group of soldiers with griffins, given them huge sacks of alchemist fire, and just let them carpet bomb the enemy ranks and set everything on fire while dealing huge amounts of splash damage. With the cost of a single gun, you could have purchased 20 some griffons, and with the cost of a second gun, armed them with some 3600 alchemist fires (though they'll only be carrying about 100 or so). Can we see a trend here?
They're horribly, horribly, inferior to just about every other option. Bows are lighter, comparable in killing power, have comparable range, are far quieter, better rate of fire, more cost efficient, easier to train, and anything you can do to make guns better with magic has already been done with bows and probably for less money.
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Stuff
Your counter-point about the 72g in weapons is a gross exaggeration, armies at war will typically only have somewhere between 4-10 semi-powerful spellcasting working with them, and at that the VAST majority of what they would be doing is just counterspelling the enemies spellcasters so their troops don't get blown out of the water. These mages would be WELL equipped and funded. There is no reason to expect for every on 1 of these an army supports there can't be 5 high level front line super-soldiers blowing holes in the turf with scattterguns. Another advantage of doing this is that these weapons can't simply be counterspelled.
You might be reminded that most weapons got a reworking for PFRPG from 3.5, so why should firearms be any exception? The Inner Sea World Guide is due out around February. Until then I saw we keep out pants on and stop comparing apples to oranges.
In regards to the expense of weapons in Alkenstar's standing army, I would just ignore it. Alkenstar already admits to artificially creating the exhorbetant prices of its weapons. And ninety percent of all Golarion's firearms reside in Alkenstar already. It is also mentioned that in times of duress, they can increase production exponentially. And that doesn't include the private gunsmiths that abound the country.
In regards to range, I think the "Maw of Rovagug"'s eight mile minimum speaks oodles. :P And also, it must be kind of intimidating, to be facing a military with so many firearms. I would immagine most generals would have little knowledge of what to expect from such a rare and costly weapon used in such great numbers by the Alkies. ( okay, I just didnt know what to call people from Alkenstar..but Alkie makes me laugh)
And speaking of laughing,
"I'm sorry. I forgot about that, and that Pathfinder absolutely has to follow stuff like that."
I laughed.
And in regards to original post. I keep them in my campaign. They are very very rare and the PC's would never consider owning any, but they are so flavorful. Yum. And some day, I may have my group face off against a bunch of Alkies.
I'm playing an Alkenstar Half elf empty hand/four wind monk in CoT currently that uses firearms. Fun times -- especially since another player is playing an alchemist from Alkenstar -- again with firearms.
We've currently stuck to just the scatter gun though, and are both looking into vital strike for later usage.
StuffYour counter-point about the 72g in weapons is a gross exaggeration, armies at war will typically only have somewhere between 4-10 semi-powerful spellcasting working with them, and at that the VAST majority of what they would be doing is just counterspelling the enemies spellcasters so their troops don't get blown out of the water. These mages would be WELL equipped and funded. There is no reason to expect for every on 1 of these an army supports there can't be 5 high level front line super-soldiers blowing holes in the turf with scattterguns. Another advantage of doing this is that these weapons can't simply be counterspelled.
Are you sure you're talking to me? The most I suggested in the way of magic items was cheap partially charged wands crafted by hedge wizards or the odd 5th level spellcaster and arming basic adepts (1st level NPC classed peopel, very common) with them to blast apart enemy ranks. It takes a 5th level spellcaster to even try to dispel stuff, but a 1st level adept can blow a 5ft wide hole through an enemy battalion for what it costs to outfit a single man with gear.
Everything else I said was entirely mundane alternatives to using fancy 72,000 gp super weapons like HalfOrcHeavyMetal suggested to make guns useful. An army of experts, warriors, and adepts can all be efficiently armed with mundane equipment better than firearms, for cheaper than firearms, and be more versatile without firearms - and I like firearms. Why would you put guys with blunderbusses on the front lines when you could simple arm them with many more flasks of acid for cheaper? I noted that a battalion that all toss acid at the same time deals obscene amounts of damage (especially when you total the splash damage) on the cheap and can even throw two at a time, whereas blunderbuss have very limited range.
As for "Another advantage of doing this is that these weapons can't simply be counterspelled.", who gives a turkey? You're not going to see a return on your investment. The blunderbuss has pitiful range, and a group lobbing flasks of acid via slings will decimate them before they are in range; or groups shooting with crossbows, bows, or even slings due to range benefits. Most of those also have a higher rate of fire. Long story short, why would you give a hoot about dispelling, since if you can dispel you could completely tear asunder the battalion of blunderbuss wielders with a fireball.
I never even mentioned fielding a PC classed character on the battlefield; so I'm very confused as to what you're addressing my post about.
You might be reminded that most weapons got a reworking for PFRPG from 3.5, so why should firearms be any exception? The Inner Sea World Guide is due out around February. Until then I saw we keep out pants on and stop comparing apples to oranges.
We're talking about the firearms in Golarion that we have in a thread about firearms in Golarion, not firearms versus fighters, so I'm not getting the apples to oranges thing here. We talk about what we got. Likewise, the majority of the weapons I've seen haven't been changed at all, with a few of the changes being rather stupid (I'm looking at you spiked chain).
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I'm sorry. I forgot about that, and that Pathfinder absolutely has to follow stuff like that....train lots and lots of soldiers you just happen to have lying around...And there's the rub.
Your pre-modern society never has lots of soldiers lying around.
You've distorted my point by partial-quoting.
In the interests of verisimilitude (and the verisimilitude of fire-arms in a magic setting is part of this debate, and a major part of what your point was actually about) you need a reason to choose guns over magic that either requires:
1. Cheap guns
2. Massed armies
3. Some other good reason that I have yet to come up with
So, Kaeyoss, what's your cool, fun explanation for having either 1. or 2. in your game world?
Golarion has a reason for Alkenstar's fire-arms that works really well.
I wasn't trying to destroy your idea, just asking for the detail that would make it much more satisfying.
I quite like the world of Dumas' Musketeers, where the guns were the weapons of an elite guard.
Also consider that firearms really aren't that much more deadly than any other weapon -- despite Hollywood's constant suggestions to the contrary.
They really only get more deadly when using large caliber or high Rate of fire weapons... . 45 and .50 calibers tend to cause a LOT of damage from the shockwave damage.
yes, getting shot with 20 arrows is just as deadly as getting shot with 20 bullets, but some high ROF weapons can fire hundreds of rounds per minute.
Also consider that firearms really aren't that much more deadly than any other weapon -- despite Hollywood's constant suggestions to the contrary.They really only get more deadly when using large caliber or high Rate of fire weapons... . 45 and .50 calibers tend to cause a LOT of damage from the shockwave damage.
yes, getting shot with 20 arrows is just as deadly as getting shot with 20 bullets, but some high ROF weapons can fire hundreds of rounds per minute.
I agree that bows don't match up to machine guns. ^_^
If your setting has castles and things that fly, you have already abandoned realism :p
As for how magic effects battlefields, it doesn't. Either both teams have wizards that do nothing but negate the other wizards, or the very existence of mass combat is nonexistent due to the nature of spells like Cloudkill, causing almost all civilization to collapse.
For that matter, we're lead to believe that the world exists in a vague medieval/ren-era setting despite having many of the tools for the Age of Information around. This is ignoring how priests can literally eliminate disease and druids can destroy the concept of slow population growth.
Long story short, D&D has never been able to stimulate a "realistic" setting. Ever.
Read my post, then please stop talking about realism?
D&D cannot be realistic. Literally it cannot be.
Wizards can change stone to mud. There are monsters that fly. Castles literally could not exist. Organized militias couldn't even exist when a single cloudkill could eliminate them.
Verisimilitude is built from the ground up on the basis of ignoring selective parts of what is realistic in order to let it not intrude on the "fun" part. There is no reason firearms shouldn't be a part of this.
If you have castles and wizards, you can have firearms that don't explode on themselves on the drop of a pin.
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If your setting has castles and things that fly, you have already abandoned realism :p
As for how magic effects battlefields, it doesn't. Either both teams have wizards that do nothing but negate the other wizards, or the very existence of mass combat is nonexistent due to the nature of spells like Cloudkill, causing almost all civilization to collapse.
For that matter, we're lead to believe that the world exists in a vague medieval/ren-era setting despite having many of the tools for the Age of Information around. This is ignoring how priests can literally eliminate disease and druids can destroy the concept of slow population growth.
Long story short, D&D has never been able to stimulate a "realistic" setting. Ever.
Read my post, then please stop talking about realism?
D&D cannot be realistic. Literally it cannot be.
Wizards can change stone to mud. There are monsters that fly. Castles literally could not exist. Organized militias couldn't even exist when a single cloudkill could eliminate them.
Verisimilitude is built from the ground up on the basis of ignoring selective parts of what is realistic in order to let it not intrude on the "fun" part. There is no reason firearms shouldn't be a part of this.
If you have castles and wizards, you can have firearms that don't explode on themselves on the drop of a pin.
Well said lol!
There you go with that common sense thing again! ;)
I agree. Reliable fire arms makes perfect sense considering there's a country that sits on the ruins of a massive starship and countries use enslaved djinn to build cities for them.
I'd like to point out that wizards and sorcerers are relatively rare. Armies employ battlemages to aid them in battle but they don't have a 100 man casting unit marching alongside a 100 man archer unit.
There you go with that common sense thing again! ;)
I agree. Reliable fire arms makes perfect sense considering there's a country that sits on the ruins of a massive starship and countries use enslaved djinn to build cities for them.
I'd like to point out that wizards and sorcerers are relatively rare. Armies employ battlemages to aid them in battle but they don't have a 100 man casting unit marching alongside a 100 man archer unit.
*cough* Adepts *cough*
There you go with that common sense thing again! ;)
I agree. Reliable fire arms makes perfect sense considering there's a country that sits on the ruins of a massive starship and countries use enslaved djinn to build cities for them.
I'd like to point out that wizards and sorcerers are relatively rare. Armies employ battlemages to aid them in battle but they don't have a 100 man casting unit marching alongside a 100 man archer unit.
They don't really need 100 man casting units..
In fact, let me put it this way:
If there is one druid that hates your army, your entire war is over. one druid. A single druid could cripple an entire army, which isn't even going into what he could do against a castle or a kingdom.
The very existence of level 4 druids means armies don't happen. In fact, they could stop the concept of wars if they want to.
Does your army travel? So does the druid, except he does it in the form of a natural animal and you don't know it's him, it could just be another deer. Except this deer can cast entangle and, now, your entire supply line is stopped and bogged down. You try to go hunting, but the druid has already sent all the animals away. The wagons need to be set out and fixed constantly due to pitfalls and small pits that litter the ground. All through the night a cold, steady wind blows, extinguishing all your lights. When you try to sleep, sudden loud sounds and sudden flashes of light wake you up, preventing you from getting any rest.
Those were level 1 spells.
Warp Wood has destroyed your caravan, and you can only carry so many supplies. You try to scavange for food and berries? Defoliate. So now you're hungry and an army marches on it's stomach. Every night swarms of bats and insects attack and plague you and the other soldiers, so now you're tired and hungry. The path is gone - what was once hardened rock and dirt has become mud. As you trudge through it, you and others are chosen at random, and suddenly your metal heats up or goes freezing cold, and you desperately claw at it to get it off. Morale is as low as it can go.
Those were level 2 spells.
*awesome again*
I love your posts. ^_^
*awesome again*I love your posts. ^_^
I do what I can ;p
Hey, everybody!
Stop having a fun little debate. You're not allowed. Cirno has taken your ball and locked it in his garage so you might as well just go home.
Man, I'm not trying to shut down the debate! Just throwing out my two bits like everyone else!
There are the days when I wish I could whack ProfCrino with some common sense on the head, and there are the days where I wish I could whack some people on the head with ProfCrino.
This is very much the second type of a day ;-)
Indeed. I haven't seen the 1st type of day, and it always seems to be the 2nd type of day when I read his posts. Does common sense mean using logic and solid reasoning abilities or is that different? 'Cause that's all I ever see 'im doin' with topics.
A 4th level druid? Seriously? Entangle stops a 40ft square out of a platoon of 1000 men you stoped 30 people for 4 minutes? that sure did end that war.
Sudden loud sounds and flashes of light? Are you sure that a whole night watch would never spot that one druid?
So you sneak up within 35 feet of my caravan, cast warp wood, on only 1 of the wagons, only one wheel, which we replace in 5 minutes and get away scott free never being seen even though your within 35 feet? I hope that you have 2 invisibility potions.
I see that alot of the "casters are over powered" junk I hear on here is just people who do not read the way the spells actually work.
You're assuming that soldiers are these invincible supermen who never get scared or don't worry about morale. They, uh, aren't, and do, appropriately. Entangle doesn't stop 30 people, entangle stops their supply caravan. It stops their men in the front, delaying the entire march.
The night watch would never spot that one druid, because that druid is in the form of a mouse.
Warp wood is one object / level. How many extra wheels is the army carrying? I'll tell you now - it's not "unlimited."
Again, why do I need invisibility potions? I chose level 4 because that's when you have Wild Shape and Natural Spell. Druids don't need invisibility. They can be rats or mice. You don't just get away scott free, they never even know you're there to begin with!
Argh, an error ate my response. How frustrating! :P Let me start over but I have less time now.
I have to admit, you make a very good point sir. I like your inventiveness with the class abilities. I do disagree though with how powerful you think a druid can stop an army entirely however.
For starters, if the 4th level druid is trying to stop a small mercenary warband or a small tribe of goblinoids from invading then he could do it. They wouldn't have the resources to stop the druid. But a well seasoned army marching under one of the banners of the major nations of Golarion? They'd have ways to counter a druid.
If Entangle stops the first wagon in a supply train the first wagon will be stopped for four minutes (if a 4th level druid.) Assuming that the men don't break out axes to chop away the vines they just have to wait out the four minutes before moving on again. If the druid took Entangle two more times he could stop the wagon for 12 minutes total. Warp wood is 2nd level and could potentially ruin two wagon wheels since wagon wheels are medium sized. The army swaps out their spares, puts the other two in the back to be fixed when they rest for the night, and then moves on throughout the day.
The druid is without spells for the rest of the day and all they can do is observe.
Now what spell are you using to create wind to blow out the campfires? At 4th level you're really limited on what you can take.
I'd also like to point out that if a druid cripples the supply train for a major army then he paints an enormous target on his back. Not only will large armies have spellcasters on retainer (possibly even druids of their own) but they may have some other kind of support. They may have the aid of infernal allies (Chelaxian), elemental tribes (Osirion), or even mechanical guardsmen (Numerian.) God forbid they hire out a contract on the druid's life with the Red Mantis Assassins.
For the druid that starts to warn wildlife away from the camp then a priest will create food to feed the troops or a sorcerer will intimidate a local village into giving up supplies. These are just a few methods.
Having a druid hamstring an army is a great idea and for a starting party it's a great way for the druid to play a vital role but druids would never end war in Golarion.