** spoiler omitted **...
We had a number of plans going, none of which really worked. First I used a sunrod a few miles off hoping to get the bandits' attention. I figured, if I could lure them out of their fort as they investigated the light source, then we could slip past them and assault the fort while it was at reduced capacity.
Nobody. Ever. Came. The GM rationalized that they were perfectly safe behind their fort's walls and that it would be stupid to so readily leave behind the protection it provided.
Later, after several days of spying on the fort to learn their routines, we decided that half the party would create a distraction at the front of the fort while the second half of the party would discretely scale the walls and launch an assault from the rear.
Apparently, one of the players had convinced the front party members to follow his own plan, which was to earn the trust of the brigands. As soon as they opened parlay with the gate guards, they informed the bandit lord of "the assassins" scaling the rear fort walls. We were beset by guards long before we made it over the top of the wall.
Needless to say, because of lack of cooperation, lack of surprise, and having being outnumbered, we all died.
So what, exactly, are you biting at?Sorry, I don't really know what this means.
If it means: "What is my point." Then my point is that Paizo APs and Modules have to be written for a broad swathe of players and that this should mean they are less challenging because it is easier for an experienced GM to boost the difficulty of an encounter than it is for an inexperienced GM to drop the difficulty.
I actually think Paizo have responded to this and, beyond the tendency to make end-of-chapter bosses OMGAwesome, the difficulty of recent APs is not as overwhelming as the Darkmoon Vale modules and the early APs.
Evidence: Xanesha, Merkolep, Malfeshnekor
You say it's easier to scale encounters up, but as I noted before it's quite the opposite. Making encounters more difficult requires more significant changes to the module as it is written, and likewise feels like cheating to some because if the PCs die - if it wasn't due to increased difficulty - it wasn't the adventure as described.
Making it easier is as simple as using weaker tactics, making less than good choices as to who to attack, and so forth. Tactics-up is easier than tactics-down.
Unless you can explain otherwise, rather than just saying so and complaining. All I've heard thus far is "I don't want to use equipment expected for my level / it's too hard" in a series of different phrases. Oh and a healthy dose of "don't comment on games with easy encounters, it's a play-style / don't judge! Q.Q" (Not that I was judging, I was commenting on my experiences. Not my game, so no skin off mine, as they say.)
Please, explain to me. I'm listening. Don't toss around meta-game fallacies. Explain to me how it's easier to scale up an encounter without messing with anything, and why I should pay money for an adventure that I'll have to re-write all the encounters to deal with a moderately competent player-base?
** spoiler omitted **
Hah, ouch my friend. That hurts. ^_^;;
This is a good lesson in what happens when players don't work together. Everyone should read Caineach's spoiler, then yours, and compare notes.It'd be very educational. ^.^
Was the stag bandit's fort really surrounded by barren wasteland? The way it was described to us was that it was at the base of a valley, and all the trees surrounding it for over a mile had been cut down to build the fort/for other reasons. As such, it was nearly impossible to approach without being spotted by the guards on the wall (since there was no cover or concealment anywhere).
Was this really the case, or was our GM just making it harder on us than it was?
** spoiler omitted **
Well if you went in at night, you could have had concealment due to lighting conditions, which would have allowed you to make Stealth checks. Factoring in the -1 penalty to Perception checks based on Distance, they likely wouldn't have seen you.
Unless they had low-light vision though. I haven't played with Kingmaker, but it sounds fun. ^_^
** spoiler omitted **Well if you went in at night, you could have had concealment due to lighting conditions, which would have allowed you to make Stealth checks. Factoring in the -1 penalty to Perception checks based on Distance, they likely wouldn't have seen you.
Unless they had low-light vision though. I haven't played with Kingmaker, but it sounds fun. ^_^
Even that took some time though on account of the full moon the first couple of days.
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In RotRL -- no deaths..just starting Hookmountain
In CotCT -- no deaths..at the beginning of Seven Days
In Savage Tide -- 1 death up through Tides of Dread
CoT and Kingmaker have been different beasts;
In CoT -- only 1/6 characters is still one of the original who started 'Bastards' is alive. We had only lost two characters (the same player with the same poor tactical choices and bad luck), until Nessian Spiral, and then things went south with a multiple encounter pull and the party being separated.
In Kingmaker -- only 1/6 characters is still one of the original charter members remains, and that character just had to be raised.
Maybe, Pathfinder adventures are a bit more brutal that APs that were done in 3.5. The GM definitely has more options with the abilities that different adversaries can use.
** spoiler omitted **
Ouch. Maybe a distraction? Maybe use a few slings + thunderstones, or fire, or perhaps just some spells like darkness to create a distraction or cause some confusion for a bit?
I don't know what level you were playing at, but there's probably a way to do it with few resources. Perhaps blowing the torches out with gust of wind, or something, maybe?
In RotRL -- no deaths..just starting Hookmountain
In CotCT -- no deaths..at the beginning of Seven Days
In Savage Tide -- 1 death up through Tides of DreadCoT and Kingmaker have been different beasts;
In CoT -- only 1/6 characters is still one of the original who started 'Bastards' is alive. We had only lost two characters (the same player with the same poor tactical choices and bad luck), until Nessian Spiral, and then things went south with a multiple encounter pull and the party being separated.
In Kingmaker -- only 1/6 characters is still one of the original charter members remains, and that character just had to be raised.
Maybe, Pathfinder adventures are a bit more brutal that APs that were done in 3.5. The GM definitely has more options with the abilities that different adversaries can use.
Wow, really? Our group in RotRL has had 8 fatalities (just starting Jorgenfist) and many more near TPKs, whereas in CoT, I don't think any of us have even gone unconscious except the one death of a character who temporarily joined for one session and let himself get surrounded by level-draining critters. Then again, we have two full-time Paladins, and Paladins are crazily powerful in any game but doubly so in CoT, where its hard to find significant enemies who won't get the double-damage smite in on the first attack.
Wow, really? Our group in RotRL has had 8 fatalities (just starting Jorgenfist) and many more near TPKs [..]
How many of those came before Hook Mountain Massacre?
** spoiler omitted **
The frontal assault is almost certainly going to result in PC deaths or a TPK but there are lots of ways to ameliorate the situation.
I believe that DMs should be facilitators of a story rather than just an adjudicator. I'm always looking for ways to say "yes" rather than "no" to my players. When they come up with plans (such as assaulting a fort), I always try to imagine it in a favourable light. This doesn't mean I fudge any rolls or bend the rules, but if you first ask yourself why the plan will work instead of why the plan won't work there's often enough wiggle room to reward creative thinking.
I can use your specific situation as an example:
When you use the sunrod to try to lure some out of the fort, the DM could ask himself two questions:
1. Why *wouldn't* they investigate?
Answer: Because they know it's safer in the fort if there's danger.
2. Why *would* they investigate?
Answer: Because they're bandits who make a living prowling the countryside for easy targets and the light could very well be one.
Option 1 is much easier to deal with (your attempt didn't work) while option 2 requires the DM to now figure out how many come, when they come and how the encounter will work out. None of this is in the book so it's a lot more effort on the part of the DM. It also rewards players for creative thinking and (perhaps) makes the assault on the fort a bit easier. I'm not perfect, but I try to remind myself that being a DM doesn't mean I'm telling the story - I'm facilitating it.
I find this way of running a game tends to make them a little less lethal.
8 deaths so far and just started the second module of Kingmaker.
I'd echo that it is harder to scale an adventure upwards. Thanfully, some awesome fans made a 6 players conversion and I'm playing my group through that. Death is that much closer since everything's stronger but the PCs are just as resistant(15 point-buy). Seems like my players are prone to separate/never retreat unless someone died/aren't cautious enough around holes.
Deaths so far..
-Three killed while fleeing the centipede through the shaft in the mite lair
-One death to a random will o' wisp
-One coup de graced by a kobold after failing a will save vs Deep Slumber
-Two deaths by zombies around the Stag lord's fort
-One killed by the lonely warrior
Wow, really? Our group in RotRL has had 8 fatalities (just starting Jorgenfist) and many more near TPKs [..]How many of those came before Hook Mountain Massacre?
A near rout in the Glassworks--lost Elana, Cleric of Shelyn and Carnation, Halfling Rogue.
Erylium--The party fled and then returned, and she blocked them in the room the second time so they couldn't flee. Near TPK, but Luis the Paladin managed to destroy the door and carry out the PCs one at a time, and Erylium was too agoraphobic to leave. She couldn't defeat him during this time due to Lay on Hands, high AC of the Paladin, and her low damage.
Nualia, Tsuto, and Yeth--Larena, Cleric of Shelyn, and Finn, Monk/Druid half-elf, died here. Everyone else except Luis the Paladin also got KOed, then Luis won the fight essentially by himself by smiting both targets.
Malfeshnekor--Luis and Malfeshnekor double-KOed (of course everyone else was already down by then). Mal woke up and starting eating Sarah the Halfling Rogue to gain sustenance and hopefully a HD, but Luis woke up and killed him.
For Skinsaw Murders, we only had six PCs, so I just left it more-or-less as is.
Ghoul Bat--Critted and killed Xanthan, the Taldan Noble Barbarian.
Skinsaw Man--Finn was the target of his obsession, but she was already dead. He switched to envy of Xanthan, who had also just died, and he managed to dig up Finn and transform her into a Dread Ghoul. Near TPK due to the Cleric munching down on Vorel's Phage instead of healing, but twice they managed to have unconscious PCs come back up at crucial junctures. They blew their good stuff on Aldern, not realising that Finn, the least effective PC they had ever seen, was much deadlier with the template stat boosts.
The Scarecrow--Xanesha is a Lamia Matriarch and hates Pharasma. She ordered her minions to focus on the Pharasma Cleric first, so a lucky scythe crit killed Seth the Cleric of Pharasma.
Xanesha--This fight was a rout before it even began, mainly due to a crit with the falling bell. Leo, Cleric of "Irori" (secretly Zon Kuthon) revealed his true allegiance to try to parlay and give his comrades time to heal up. Luis, invincible up to this point, was faced with a monster who drained his lowest stat (Wisdom) on a touch attack (his touch AC was pitiful). He jumped off the belltower and survived. Aeedorin the Eldritch Knight cast Fly and escaped while Celli, the greedy Archer Paladin baited Xanesha (Xanesha knew of Celli's greed from Leo's parlay). Leo also jumped ship at this point, making it to the place where the bell had broken the stairs and jumping down from there.
Xanesha II--Xanesha and the party both went to the Temple of Abadar to heal. Not until after Xanesha had booby-trapped the clocktower to collapse and then put a large bet in the local taverns (where they have running bets as to when it would fall). She Suggestioned Luis that he needed to climb back up there to save Celli and then split, but the rest of the party waved money in front of the Abadar Clerics to Dispel Luis, and they managed to save him the trap.
Xanesha III--Xanesha had retreated to Ironbriar's estate to sacrifice Celli. The party eventually managed to find her, but by that point Celli was the proud owner of a scarred Sihedron Rune in her chest, and Xanesha was finishing off the ritual and ready to plunge the dagger. However, this time the party came prepared. They had spent thousands of gold on scrolls, most notably CL 11 Scorching Ray scrolls. Aeedorin managed to get Xanesha scared enough to run (she didn't know he had just run out of those scrolls). He freed Celli and declared Xanesha ilduliel.
That's up to Skinsaw. Now for HMM--
Jaagrath Kreeg, as well as every other ogre in that main fort area (including Dorella and Hookmaw on Floor 2 and some other exceptional Kreegs on Floor 1), plus later Xanesha IV and Lucrecia--The party went in through the Shocker Lizard tunnels and ran into Lucrecia, who managed to come across as harmless. She raised an alarm just as the PCs happened to blunder into the chapel as the first room they checked. Jaagrath himself killed Luis and Basha, the gambling Barbarian/Fighter before going down (Luis was critted to death). Dorella killed the Black Arrow that isn't Kaven or Jak. Everyone else nearly died by a lot. They would have clearly wiped except that both archery and rangers vs their favoured enemies were buffed so much in Pathfinder that Jak was nigh unto a god against giants. Aeedorin saved his girlfriend Shalelu as well as Celli by Dimension Dooring out of the fight on his one round of sanity during Dorella's confusion. Xanesha followed him, but he had gone down among the Shocker Lizards, moved slowly and calmly, and rolled Natural 20 to calm the lizards with Handle Animal. Xanesha flew through the Lizards quickly to find Aeedorin and managed to trigger their wrath. Between that and Aeedorin, Xanesha had to retreat back to Lucrecia--who was having her own problems, having failed her save against Leo's Bestow Curse and now experiencing the eternal torment of Zon Kuthon (-4 to all rolls). All the mooks had fallen to Leo's Channel Negative Energy, so Jak and Leo thought themselves the only survivors, as did Aeedorin, Shalelu, and Celli. There was much rejoicing when they met up.
Everything else in Fort Rannick at the same time--They almost got killed here again. Aeedorin had to be a mage tank and take down a huge assortment of ogres by himself as everyone else had fallen. The main problem is that Luis and Basha were still dead, so they had few PCs left for the rest.
Barl Breakbones, with Xanesha V and Lucrecia II--This would have been a certain loss if Aeedorin hadn't Dimension Doored out, healed up a few KOed PCs, and then rejoined the fight later while the others held the enemies off. Particularly effective were Barl's new toys for being a Pathfinder Necromancer, as he could cast out of a Darkness he could see through. Folco the Paladin/Alchemist died here and was raised as a zombie.
No problems for them yet in FotSG, but the fun is only just beginning ^_^
We haven't encountered any zombies yet.
We haven't encountered any zombies yet.
Interesting. From your description of events...
According to the AP, if you aren't on the main pathway up to the fort, you should have been attacked by zombies which inhabit the barren hillside.
I guess I spoiled it for you, but I had assumed you already met them.
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Just tonight, my lvl 6 party and I got close to the end of the "City of Golden Death" module,
Awesome blow into the molten gold... I took 50d6, (20d6 initially, 10d6 for 3 rounds after that) which alone killed me from full health, but also broke the ring, ensuring I stayed dead.
Given that there was only 1 square anywhere near him that he couldn't immediately awesome blow someone into the gold, yeah, I felt that perhaps it was a bit much. Unfortunately, the game ended permanently because of arguing afterwards between the DM and another player. I didn't really care personally... I'd started rolling up a paladin.
I added a spoiler tag.
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Serpent Skull
I just played through the part you were talking about, and one of the things that helped us was that the "adventuring group" (IE: the players) were actively going out into the jungle and hunting/exploring. Because of that we ran into tribesmen a few times and thinned their numbers.
When we eventually got to the barbarian camp it was the Cheif, the Witch and six barbarians.
The skeletons didn't become involved because of how we started the fight.
The group comp was 2nd level spell-less ranger (KQ produced variant), 2nd level cleric, 2nd level rogue (not combat based), and I forget his name, but the NPC with the Katana :P).
I ended up dying in the last round, but not before I was able to hold the attention of the chief and the witch. I also admit it helped I was an orc. Orc ferocity saved the day imo.